 My question is to do with the Guru and the student. Is it student, pupil, devotee? The relationship to the Guru is different. Some are devotees, some are disciples, you know? Disciples. Some are students. That was the word I was looking for. Could you explain the relationship between the Guru and the disciple to me? Also, does the disciple choose the Guru or does the Guru choose the disciple? And then, my other question is... I just forgot it. Okay. My other question is, do we need to have a Guru in body to progress and to continue to evolve in the best way that we can? Or is it enough to have the inner Guru? The Guru is one of the functions in society that is taken up by an individual. One person is a doctor, the other one is a lawyer, the third one is a Guru, the fourth one is a cleaner, the fifth one is a societal function actually. The Guru's function is to point the gaze of the disciple to the Antar Guru, the Guru within. So how does the Guru do that? The Guru does that by continuously pointing out when the ego is interfering in the connect between the disciple and their own soul. What the Guru does is remind the disciple in every moment when the ego rears its head. That is actually what the Guru's work is, to fearlessly do that. Because the ego of the disciple retaliates and sometimes can retaliate very fiercely with very deep anger towards the Guru, even hate. Because that ego is so big and it needs to be broken down and the ego is not ready to go to its own death. So it will kick and scream till the last moment. The Guru has to be very fearless and just take up that work and fearlessly point the disciple to the source. The disciple's work, because these roles are actually, you know, there is an equality there. It's like it's a stage on which one side the Guru stands, one side the disciple stands. It is not a top-down relationship which is experienced much more by westerners who are not used to the Guru Shesha Parampara or to Guru Vada. They see it more as a human being to Jesus sort of relationship. That is not what a Guru Shesha relationship is. Like sometimes Sheshas are shouting at their Gurus and fighting with them and all of that goes on all the time. In fact, even in our Sangha sometimes the western disciples are shocked how the Indian disciples fight with me and argue and throw tantrums and it is a relationship of equality but with roles where the Guru plays the role of the Guru and the Shesha plays the role of the Shesha. The Shesha's work is to surrender when the Guru is breaking that ego down. Of course there are corrupt Gurus who manipulate and so on. Unless that Guru is really, like I said yesterday, raping somebody or killing somebody or asking you to do that pretty much the Shesha can actually go with what is being said. Unless it's criminal of course that we cannot, we have to stay with the law of the land. Taking into account the law of the land what the Shesha has to be aware of is not to allow the ego to reject what the Guru is saying or even to run away. You know, that's why sometimes in India some Gurus, especially with westerners, they take away their passports, they take all their money away, everything. They just reduce them to nothing. Those are the fearless Gurus who actually know that that's the way to point the Shesha to the fastest route to the self. Because when they are stripped of everything they have then they start feeling the self. So the relationship between the Shesha and the Guru is a very complex one because the Guru for example can respond to the Shesha from largely six different layers of consciousness. The Guru can have a unity consciousness experience with the Shesha and show the Shesha that the Guru can have a transformative creative experience with the Shesha and show the Shesha that an emotional experience with the Shesha, show the Shesha that deep in their emotional experience can have a Agnya Chakra experience with the Shesha and open that part up as well and even a physical relationship that exists also that Gurus actually have physical relationships with their Shesha in order to deepen the experience of the Shesha in the physical that exists also. It is frowned upon but it is one-sixth of that experience and so those Gurus who feel that that is necessary they actually even would do something like that. Of course there is then the issue of misuse of power and there can be many different ways of looking at it but in the classical Guru Vada there is no question of misuse of power because once a Shesha has taken a Guru that's the Guru and they allow the ego to be broken down for a Westerner who has grown up in an Abrahamic tradition or not just a Westerner even a Middle Easterner who has grown up in an Abrahamic tradition that will be very difficult to swallow because they are worshipping the Guru rather than being devoted to the Guru. A Guru is not here to be worshipped it is devotion to the Guru that is the basis of that connection from the point of view of the Shesha. So is it important to have a living master? There is a very big difference between a master that has passed away and a living master and the main difference is that the Shesha can actually interpret in whichever way the ego chooses what the master that has passed away is saying, oh I dreamt of Ramana and he told me this. The Shesha's ego can invent all kinds of things so that the ego continues to proliferate but when there is a living master it's very hard because the master just comes and gives one slap and then you cannot run away from that slap it has happened you cannot falsify it and the ego cannot say no no it wasn't a slap it was a slap of love maximum that's what they can say. So in the tradition of Guru Vada and in the Sanatana Dharma which is the eternal way of living that the subcontinent has given to the world Guru Vada is the main pillar because it is the living masters that manifest the knowledge that is required for that particular era and while the passed away masters are cherished and are respected it is the living masters that keep Guru Vada, Guru Shesha Parampara alive and keep the Sanatana Dharma always moving with what is now so we don't have in the subcontinent a religion as such we don't have prophets unless you're Christian or Muslim the Hindus in general don't have prophets they have gurus that have passed away and they have people who respond to the gurus that have passed away because they are calling his religious in nature those who respond to the living masters are the ones who are actually ready to take that very very tough breaking down of the ego that a living master does once a guru has passed away religion starts the words of the guru are anchored in texts that are followed what the guru said, what the guru did all of those things are anchored in texts and in treatises and in edicts and in doctrines and so it starts to become a religion but as long as the guru is in the body it's not a religion because there is someone there who's constantly challenging exactly those propensities which human beings bring with them to canonize everything so the guru says today one thing then tomorrow says another thing and I'll tell Irene one thing and I'll say the opposite to you you know I'll say a third thing to her and contradict myself over there because these are individuals each one with their own paths actually and their own ego blocks is it necessary to take a guru to know self? necessary maybe not but recommended yes is it difficult? very difficult is it easier in the final analysis? much easier but for a western are very difficult to handle the gurus generally it is very tough because they've never learned how to bow down to bend down you know they even clean the floor standing up you know what I mean? yes so if you really yearn for the guru then the guru will be there for you but then you have to be ready to also bend down really who chooses the guru, the disciple or the... the choice is not the discussion it happens it's not so important does the guru choose the Shishya, does the Shishya choose the guru because there are these ideas floating around that when the time is right the guru will appear but from the point of view of the guru it is when the time is right the Shishya appears so it's both ways the relationship between the guru and the disciple as important to the guru as the relationship is from the disciple toward the guru is there an exchange happening? yes there is because it's like you know a doctor a doctor cannot be a doctor unless there's a patient because he can be a doctor with a certificate on the wall but he cannot practice unless he has someone to heal with the guru Shishya relationship neither the Shishya nor the guru are meant to need each other it is not about needing it is about completing it is a complementary relationship you know it's very beautiful like when that relationship flowers it's just sweetness on either side even through the moments of hell because it can be a lot of hell for the Shishya if the guru is just there and just shouting you know that power that is I mean sometimes like some of my Shishya's grown men they just start crying in one second like this then I'm also crying when they do things which hurt me so it's both ways you know like I'm like how could you do this to me this is not okay if the guru is real then that relationship is very it's very back and forth and if it is a guru that is detached from the physicality and from all emotion and from all if that detachment is there then the relationship is actually not an equal one because the detachment has happened because the gurus have been in Samadhi states and in Samadhi states they detach from everything so when they come back into the body their awareness of the other ones actual experience is limited knowing the cosmos does not increase knowledge of this it does not not in any of the greatest masters that the subcontinent has brought forth or any part of the world it does not it simply is a state of detachment so the compassion is general not individual it's cosmic not terrestrial and a guru like that the equality is not there which is why in the future the gurus will be much more here and now in their body it's just real but they know that the ego is showing over there also another aspect of the Guru-Shishya relationship is that the Shishya looks at the guru as God on earth the guru is seen as being divine but if the guru starts to feel that they are divine then there's a problem the guru's humility has to be supreme if the guru does not stay in humility in every moment there will be a problem somewhere down the road they cannot have that assumption that they are divine I'm not talking about the Bhagawan states where there are states of consciousness where there is an actual experience of divinity I'm talking about a solid statement to themselves that they are God that is a surefire beginning of an end with our Shishyas here often I ask them, even the young ones have you seen any ego in me if you see ego tell me I'm very vigilant because we can assume anything but it is better to be vigilant every moment this is the advice to gurus that I give when they come to see me be vigilant, don't think you don't have ego for sure you have it especially if you think you don't have it then very surely you do because it's a socialization process it is always ready to interfere in that relationship can the guru take on any of the disciples' karma? when they say that a guru takes on the karma of the disciple it is not that the guru absorbs that karma within themselves what it is is that the guru takes on the anger of the disciple in the transformational process of that karma what the guru is absorbing is the anger I mean every day there is someone or the other angry with me big anger, real anger just yesterday I was on the call with a long term disciple of mine in Europe and she was just internally so angry with me so angry but I kept steady I did not give in to that I just did not give in, no? what I'm saying is like this, you examine yourself you will see it then an hour later she wrote me a message saying I'm very sorry this is not how I understand now what you said because that anger is so violent sometimes that is what you take on when you are reducing the ego what you are actually doing is reducing the prarabdha karmas and vasanas in that moment the ego is just retaliating with such anger that if you are not physically very tough and you are not really present it can actually bowl you over not with the ones who have been in samadhi states and are detached because for them whatever is happening is illusory in nature anyway because they are looking at it from a cosmic consciousness but if you take on the terrestriality of life and you are here and now then you have to be physically very strong to bear that anger that is what the gurus take on they take on the anger actually another way of saying is they take on the karmas I understand the retaliation of those egos it's huge so if you enter into a relationship with the guru it is important to keep an eye on the guru and to see that they are not going into ego to tell them that I feel this is ego now if they are ready to listen but at the same time the posture to the guru is complete surrender like they are the divine it's an interesting dance it's a very beautiful experience if you actually can experience that surrender to the guru it's something rare to have in an experience in this life and sometimes I feel very sad because people ask me is it possible to do it without a guru and I say yes but it's that much more difficult why would one want to go that way but most people are like westerners Indians, urban, English speaking western educated so called elite there is a fundamental refusal to acknowledge that there is someone who actually sees and knows more than you do so it's sad because finally the one who is seeing and knowing and experiencing is just a name and a body it's nothing more than that and all that fuss for that simple name and body who is refusing to bend the press of course publicizes all these gurus that have taken advantage of people and people write books about very few people actually understand the genus of that and the genius of that relationship is singular and it's rare and if you have the fortune to come across a fearless guru then it's a very big fortune sometimes even the gurus they are so frustrated because they are just battling this ego and that person is not bending and then they blame you for having done exactly what your job is it's like a patient would go to a doctor and say you cut me up and took out my abscess I'm going to leave you now it's a delicate story it's trust because a disciple will say to the guru you're misusing your power but the guru doesn't experience it as power at all I never have this feeling I have power over anyone they have power over me actually I don't feel that I have power over them what power do I have the only power I have is to tell them that's the ego bend down turn around move away look inward that's the only power I have but then because the ego doesn't like what is told to it it accuses of misuse of power so it's a dance it's a Leela it's like the Radha Krishna Leela you know he runs away she runs behind him then she sees him turning towards her so she runs away and he runs behind her and this Leela keeps on until both finally bend and embrace each other thank you that helps me a lot any gurus sitting here yes I think you quite understand what I'm speaking about right have that experience also right it's very painful know sometimes but it hurts the heart yes but one has to just hold through and you know especially when that anger comes it's pretty