 Hello and welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, autism and ADHD, should special interests be encouraged? And I'm in conversation with Richard Simmons. I'm Richard Simmons. I'm director of All The Board Club. This I set up three years ago following my own autism diagnosis and subsequently an ADHD diagnosis as well. All The Board Club runs inclusive play sessions for autistic ADHD children based around their special interest in trains. And the question episode today is, should special interests be encouraged? So do you want to say a little bit about that and then we'll see where the conversation takes us? It's quite common for autistic ADHD people to have a special interest, something which they really want to learn about, retain the information about and spend a lot of time doing. These special interests are often seen as a sort of a past time something to do in their spare time, but it's increasingly becoming obvious that they're actually really powerful in terms of helping them through education and also for employment opportunities as well. And they're not always necessarily painted in an entirely positive light. Although I often hear people talking about special interests like obsessions and almost saying that this is something we have to teach children not to spend too much time doing. And what are your kind of thoughts on that? Yes, the obsession word in fact pops up on the National Autism Society website annoyingly, which inevitably puts a sort of negative spin on it, that they're spending too much time on it. In a sort of neutral way they're out there sometimes seen as something which is a useful past time for them to do by way of, you know, if you finish your homework then you can go and do X or, you know, if you're not feeling very good today then why don't you go and do something? The obsession side of things, yes, they are potentially using up more time than other people might, than you're a typical people might. But it's actually a case of working out why it is that they're spending this amount of time they're so engrossed in it. It can be a sort of a form of relief, release even, just to be able to go back to something that is known that is sort of predictable, but there's more to it than that. There is this sort of wanting to sort of acquire information about it, be up to date with it, broaden their ideas, what they've got to become an expert in it, and then to then have opportunities to use that information, or to use that, almost those research skills, is it can be astonishing. I've worked with a number of people, both school age children and university students and older who are now working in their ideal job, whether it's working with Network Rail, planning timetables, I know of a guy who is a bus schedule for a bus company, he knows his company's bus schedule and the size of the buses and probably the inside leg measurement of most of their drivers, and so of course when he schedules something he knows it's going to work. He's doing it for the love of it as well as for a hopefully a half decent salary as well. So there's definitely some positives there in terms of special interests. So you set up the all aboard club to take the idea of many children who might have a special interest in, is it specifically around trains? Tell us more about it, I'm putting words in your mouth without knowledge, tell us about it. It's a strange concept to describe, we take over a large venue, whether it's a church hall, a museum building, wherever, and we initially fill the floor with Rio train tracks, Tomy train tracks, battery powered ones, but that's not there specifically for the children to play with, that's just giving them something you know to start with. We then have 15, 20 children come in, they exhibit every possible trade across the spectrum and it's always slightly astonishing to think there is this one word description that describes them all, and it is basically their space, it is pretty much unstructured, it's unsupervised in terms of we don't organize things for them, it is very much their space, they're working together, yeah we do have a few little problems, but then that's, you do with any group of children, it's sort of designed so they need to interact with each other, if only because they're having to share, you know, both of them, you know, two people want the same train out of the box, or they've both got to go along the same piece of track, and they're in a situation where many of them are perhaps not used to being in a big group situation, but again because of the special interest, because of the fact of what they're doing, namely playing trains, that allows them to sort of focus on the difficult bits that their social communication skills, their environment, it can get loud, it can get noisy, it can get busy, but again even children that we know have sensory challenges, they manage to be able to sort of work with those in the environment when in a public situation or another venue it might not be possible, so yeah we're open, we run the sessions for two hours and the kids are there absolutely, you know, from doors opening and they don't want to go home at the end, the parents love it, they've been to many sort of public situations, public play groups where for whatever reason it's been very difficult for their children to to to get in or to then sort of interact with the other children, we are run by people who are autistic, have ADHD or work in those areas, so we know what it's all about, and we are deliberately very hands-off, we do have little sort of issues every so often, and if somebody's being creative or trying to do something out, you know, we'll try and spot it, and so by the end of the session train tracks are something very very different, there's always somebody trying to run the longest train possible and it's always falling off, and there's little teams of guys meeting up, it's not the same children every week, and you get there's been lovely instances where we've just watched these guys, apparently they're not supposed to be able to you know interact, work together, empathy and all of that stuff, and there these you know these children just working together, teaming up, sharing stuff, it's lovely to watch. Why trains? Is this something you always enjoyed? I was brought up with them, looking back on it, my dad was definitely down the S Burgess side of things, and he ended up talking about special interests in employment, he ended up a job at the National Railway Museum in York when it opened, which from a subject point of view was ideal for him from a sort of working environment was very hard, very sort of civil service driven, and I remember growing up and everywhere we went just happened to be, and we ended up by the side of a railway line or something, so we were just completely sort of, this is what we were used to, so I knew as a result I had quite a lot of sort of context and knew how it sort of took, and we've actually, it's been lovely with being able to develop the play sessions in in various venues to then broaden them out, so we've been to the Science Museum Special Educator for the needs events, we've run autos and weekends at the Bluebell Railway in Sussex, which was the older ones, all the children came along to that as well rather than mainly our sessions are sort of primary aged children, so we're always looking for sort of opportunities to to sort of broaden it out, and we're getting some lovely comment, lovely reactions from you know actual operators as well, we did, we took a group of 20 kids and their families on the Documents Light Railway, they wanted to do all of it from end to end, and all this you know continuously, you know not the sort of typical request but there you go, and the guys running Documents Light Railway were absolutely brilliant and accommodated us beautifully, and we've got other irons in the fire and the similar places to go to as well, and it gives us a chance I suppose also to with these various venues, these various operators just to sort of flag up to staff and you know what relatively little it needs to make things autos and friendly, and to sort of get their get their sort of staff up to speed so they can just experience it and go oh okay so that's you know that's a good approach, that's a good strategy. And what sort of things do you tell them, teach them in order to make things more autos and friendly? You said it doesn't take very much to make that difference, what makes the difference? Often a sort of filling in filling in the gaps, there is that assumption that if you're bringing autistic children to something that they're going to have special needs, they're going to have a learning difficulty, they're not going to be able to do no no actually hang on, that's a very, that's a small subset of them, and then you get the sort of over-helpful, they want to do everything, they want to put somebody on the entrance to greet everybody, and we're going no no actually they just want to they just want to sneak in and go and do what they know there that we've told them is happening, so don't expect them to you know launch into a conversation with you or get excited or want to take something from you or whatever, it's always funny whenever we open the doors for one of our play sessions and the families are coming in, whether the families have been before or new families, quite a few parents sort of expect their child to say hello to me, and the fact that they've had flicked eye contact with me and I've seen them and gone all right so and then they've gone and they're piling in playing with the trains, I'll have a conversation with the parents and they'll they'll be sitting there going well you know I'm so sorry you know you should have said hello okay no no no, it's that it's those sort of social niceties which you can which become a sort of optional and just sort of allow things to run as smoothly as possible, try and sort of anticipate things that might happen and have a few people around in the right places who can if need be you know sort out situations if for whatever reason it becomes you know it becomes difficult and also if somebody needs to leave early or whatever or just because it's just becoming too too much for them, it's knowing not to sort of just let that happen and if they need to go they need to go, so yes it's very easy for us we run all the board club because we sort of have obviously personal or professional experience ourselves but it's nice to sort of fill in the gaps and you and you see that that's you see there the the the awareness and the understanding getting there and they go oh okay now they've got a better idea because day to day they'll be dealing with more people as well. And you said that you set up all a board club following your own diagnosis so what's the story there is that happy something you're happy to talk about? Yeah it was it was a suggestion from one of my sisters who was a teacher I'd been in teaching myself briefly I'd had a sort of career of lots of short-term jobs got frustrated got depressed with them hopped around tried different things including teaching and she said oh you know have you ever thought that you might be autistic and one of my teaching placements when I was training to be a teacher was actually in a secondary school in London with an autism unit and looking back on it I was I was just intrigued and working with all the autistic kids through in the classrooms and finding that really easily it was one of those sort of looking back on them quite a few moments like that going okay yeah maybe I might have spotted this earlier and then it was the that was the sort of a realization of how difficult I why I found sort of corporate jobs difficult and it sort of came through getting you getting to know what was going on the whole sort of autism community what sort of facilities were being run by largely by parents for for other parents and went out to see a little local support group in Reading called Engine Shed which ran essentially what we do now we were they allowed us to borrow their idea and make it bigger and take it on the road so yes it was one of those things you walked into a room and go oh yeah I can see why this works and then the sort of my my my brain then was just sort of scaled it up I'm going yeah this there's a lot more people out there that will like it so it's become my my business my job with a brilliant team of volunteers to help things to keep things ticking over and running the events and do you think that you're like is it is it one of those things that you wish would have been there for you when you were younger or are you just taking joy in the doing it now or um I was I I sort of sailed through school pretty bright did did well you know got good grades so it was that thing of you know nobody even suggested it um and I suppose there were there were things that we could have done we were coming from a family with you know neurodiverse parents will be undiagnosed um we we sort of did our own little figure our own little you know slightly into the family so we didn't really sort of notice what what wasn't um what we were not not doing the same as other people I suppose um it became more obvious going to sort of universities and jobs and things afterwards where I just didn't quite sort of fit in or I tend to do things based around the activities that I was doing um so yeah it was I think if I would know now it was autistic earlier I would have I would have set up something like this earlier um it's it's just that there is a we're a little bit sort of specialist among specialists in terms of what we do but it's uh and hoping that it'll it'll it might inspire people to sort of look at other areas as well um and and develop it it's an obvious special interest that is a is a group activity is sort of easy to to run to public events with we're always looking at other ways to to help other bits of the other bits of the autism community in the same way I I'm interested particularly about the the trains and vehicles kind of thing because um yeah this is one of the things I do a lot of work about autism in girls and uh one of the things we often talk about is how when girls have special interest they often tend to be a bit more sort of socially acceptable or we don't pick up on them always um as much um whereas if we see a boy who's taking a big interest in trains or buses or planes then we will often go hmm I wonder um and I just I wonder what what is it about um about trains and things that that yeah really seems to engage the autistic brain yeah I've I've I've seen as many suggestions as to why particular special interests are special interests as I've read articles about them um there's that sort of predictability there is the sort of the the fact you can learn a lot of information about them um which I suppose also would apply to where people have an interest in in in particular science fiction characters or doctor who whatever you there is a big backstory to pick up um and a whole sort of back back catalog of information to to learn and find all the interrelations between them um but then there are others that are just very sort of very satiric and just sitting there and it's just something that somebody likes doing um it's I think it's very much based on on it'll be driven by whatever the child's sort of interests are their particular character whatever they're used to doing what you know however whatever their family situation is um uh I I think it's it's more obvious as well in that it is very much an external thing if you see somebody playing with a dinosaur or a train or being a doctor who found its guy um but when it when it's something more subtle um or internal or design driven or whatever it might be um it it isn't it isn't as easy um it's yes it's it's an intriguing one um I was the whole the all the board club idea and me finding out about it and the engine shed group in Reading came out from a um I happened to see a tweet um about a a mum wanted to set up a group for broader sort of transport interests or families just to sort of share ideas and uh I said yeah I've run Facebook groups before and uh but very quickly Transport Sparks was born and it's run for um it's run for about four four three four years now um nominally London based and interested in anything sort of with wheels only in London there are now I think 900 families in the group just sharing just sharing information about what's going on something unusual um obviously once lockdown finishes um they'll be back out there doing their things I mean that's where the the trip on the documents like railway um you know from from end to end sort of came from that group as well um so that that covers you know buses planes you name it a bit of everything but then you get some really you get some beautifully specialist ones in there I remember one of the very early members had a particular interest of videoing level crossings working he wasn't actually that bothered about the trains and he liked to see the the level crossing barriers going up and down the lights flashing and he liked to video it and that was his thing and you go fine and what was lovely about the group was that as soon as they rather apologetically said you know this is what their son did you then got the others in the group who said oh my son does that as well you know and so instantly you got a little a little specialist a specialist group within a specialist group um and then you get that sort of realization that this is this is not that unusual um uh so yes it's it's an odd one I've never quite got to the bottom of it and I think also we find in you know within our play sessions they are how the children interact with the trains is very different there are the sort of operating types they want to run the trains there I get little sort of young engineers who want to build complicated things and work out how they all connect together I've got guys coming along with with cameras setting up little scenarios little pictures uh and taking pictures of them um I've got the collectors who go through and we'll sort the boxes out or set up a particular train of particular things um and then well there'll be always somebody making the biggest train by the end of it um and it's just intriguing to what so the generalization of trains it is actually has has different threads to it um it's yes I don't think anybody's quite put their finger on on on why on the on the particular subjects the best one I example of an unusual special interest I um I did a talk at the autism show a few years ago and I was digging around amongst other people other spokesmen and um so community spokesmen on on social media and the the most unusual one was somebody had a specialist interest in African dictators and were yeah and researched them and obviously knew their life history and what all the things they'd done and you go fine yeah that's you know you can't necessarily stop them having an interest in that area so but you've got to sort of go with the flow um so yes it's it's um it's an intriguing area um I'm I'm aware of the increasing numbers of groups for supporting girls and women on who are autistic and it's it's interesting to see what comes out of those um as to they're they're not necessarily agenda specific special interest at all um so it's uh I'm always interested to know what um what other examples are out there and what and what could be done to try and well to support them yeah I think I think it's an interesting thing and I find myself constantly reminding people that you know you can get males who portray in this kind of more what we might think more typically female autistic tendencies and then we get plenty of girls who look yeah like that that more typical presentation and might be picked up more easily but um yeah like like you I find it really really fascinating and I do like the the idea of special interest in particular really fascinates me and at what point does something cross the line and become a special interest um so yeah when does it cross the line from just being something you like to a special interest yeah it's interesting reading comments of a certain number of people on social media and I think there's it we we started being very much focused on the on uh autistic children and then we got inevitably we got a number of express oh my my child isn't autistic he's got ADHD and he still likes trains okay fine yeah yeah go for it not a problem at all and then you get the comments from people and you it's interesting how the the depth of interest in something is still there but and this is a sweeping generalization those with ADHD traits or ADHD tend to flip between them so they will have them and they'll be deeply into them but they can park them and move on to something else and they may have two or three but others will have one running all the time and have others that come and go on top of them so it's it's and I think they're it's interesting to see how they're how they're aware of it as well that they're aware that they have they have a an intense interest in something and they they perhaps have found out more information than most people about it yeah and and you also can get a situation where you get those that are as they get older that their special interest might not be seen as sort of age appropriate anymore so the whole Thomas tank engine thing is it's lovely when we get sort of teenagers and we get we get people helping who are you know 18 or older and they've they've still got an interest or a great knowledge in it and they can go off and chat with the kids and it do you know uh completely at their level and they go wow and and I know there are there are there are guys I'm aware of on social media who will who are I'm sort of guessing but then 20s and 30s who will who sort of customize Thomas tank engine braille things into into or create you know panoramas to to depict the story so they're using their level of design craft photographic video skills but Thomas is still the thing um so yes it's it's it's case of anything anything goes and it's it's very it must be very difficult for families to still think you know I wish my son daughter would just drop this and do something a bit more grown up and get some friends you know and you go no if you go and if you try and peel them off it you're going to have it's a sort of safety zone for them as well as being something that they're not going to instantly forget everything that they've picked up about it um it'll still be there I guess that there's different ways of approaching that though as well aren't there because you can use special interests as a way into connecting with someone as well and I think sometimes it can feel a bit like uh they can those interests might feel alien to you and not of interest if it's not something you know about but I don't know I've certainly found uh like with my daughter her special interest is snakes we don't have any snakes but she knows a lot about snakes and I I had spiders growing up and never had any interest in snakes and I wasn't interested in snakes but I have found that just I have a lot of admiration for her level of knowledge on this and when she gets talking on it it's quite nice as a parent to be able to sit back and this child who doesn't always seem very engaged with much can just you know there's something I don't know I find there's something there but it's about knowing how to find those ways in almost isn't it particularly if it's not much about you can I mean you can have I've had some very grown-up conversations with kids about things just sort of challenging something though because they've obviously sort of sucked everything in and are very much sort of through there you know how it's been presented to them whether it's you know YouTube reading stuff whatever it might be and you can then have a what is a very sort of grown-up conversation about something which happens to be their special interest and it just gives them that opportunity as is you know those skills are developed in school and you know university or whatever and again using that special interest as the basis of it have a have you know challenges them on something or give them a bit of background so that they they're looking at it in a different context so why why were the Thomas attack Indian books written in that way why were they designed like that so again it just broadens their mind from away from just you know the the thing for its own sake but yes it is it there is a lovely there's a sort of there's that it's a self a self-acceptance I think as well from the children themselves and the adults of that sort of yes I this is information I know this is my this is my strong area and I think the interactions are interesting as well you you where you get two people with a similar or the same special interest they will they will interact they will work together they will like to do at our play sessions and if you go to the the the preserve railways a lot of their volunteer staff would be likely to be autistic as well and but their interactions there aren't the sort of you know going going for a drink or having a chat and talking about what's on there they're doing it in a sort of parallel activity working supporting what it is they support and then afterwards they will just go home and that'll be the end of it and there won't be a sort of oh do you want to catch up with them outside no it's all right no it's fine that was that's my that's my special interest zone and it's again it's that it's there's an art to then managing them as volunteers or managing them as staff because their their drivers for doing it are slightly different and they won't necessarily go down the pub after work or after you know at the end of a weekend but that doesn't mean to say that they you know that they're any worse because of that that's an interesting point actually I hadn't really thought about that yeah and where you're you've got volunteers who work with you who yeah you're you're you're selecting them sort of positively discriminating in favour of neurodiverse volunteers but I suppose that brings with it and yeah some well not challenges but things to consider I suppose doesn't it yeah it's interesting where you get situations where they people will will move will look for sort of voluntary or paid jobs which of which are sort of behind the scenes their support roles which may be because they it reduces any pressure for social communication phone calls whatever it might be when you get interesting situations in in where you got active volunteers running things where some of them are doing it because of their love of the subject but then they're actually you know a quite a frontline position and having to deal with with customers and families and whilst to them it wouldn't really matter if every if their steam train was running half an hour late because it's all a steam train you still got somebody coming along who's getting annoyed at that because they've got to get home all the child's getting upset or whatever so you do have those you need to be aware of those the things that which may be a bigger a bigger issue in those situations so yes it that then that has implications with obviously you know with recruitment with with training with sort of supervision and where where you can where you can put people which might be in a which could be in a sort of challenging position a challenging situation for them anyway yeah do you find it easier to work with other neurodiverse people yes this is a very simple answer that one and I often find I will when I've either met people or parents have come along or I'm working you know as part of my social enterprise with people I will think afterwards and go that meeting or that so and so or that whatever was really easy oh hang on yeah we never quite got around to it but actually yeah we were just on the same wavelength about it we're very sort of operational focused but then equally nobody nobody being hugely competitive about anything so I can go off and come up with headbrained ideas and about then the rest of them will just sort of either repeat the shreds or just go maybe not now which is great because you do need that there's a sort of you know realism a bit of realism put onto some of them but equally it's it's such an open community as well people our parents and and autistic children and autistic adults are very open to and very blunt about their likes dislikes and all of that so you can find out quite quickly what what works and what doesn't we've done a sort of research amongst our families to see what else would we could add to our sessions or how we could run things differently and it was very clear what came back very very clear which is great from a market research point of view that's just what you want I mean we had we've got the situation that the the parents and carers are there for sort of two hours and have very little to do which is great for them and then we were we would we've said to them before well is this opportunity for us to you know bring in somebody who you can pick their brains about whatever it might be in terms of support schools whatever it might be and a just a significant majority of them basically told us to buzz off because they just that was they they deal with that all week and they don't this was they wanted to chill out time as well as the kids so yeah there was no we didn't get much okay so oh that's not lovely idea when actually they were meaning I don't really want that at all we would they told us and inevitably working with autistic ADHD children we're working with a lot of autistic ADHD parents whether they know it or not so that's that in itself is is is helpful just to sort of be aware of that and that it obviously comes it comes with the genes so we they can often we often find getting very sort of the specialist questions being put towards because they're just realising that you know they're in an environment the children of their children are now in an environment that just sort of gets it and so they're they're in the same place I've had that this odd question I've been meaning to ask somebody and never quite known known who to ask so yeah we have to field some interesting inquiries from time to time it's great though it sounds like you've created a really sort of safe environment both for the children and for the adults that support them and a nice break as well from kind of neurotypical life because it is actually the world's quite overwhelming isn't it I find this I'm increasingly worried I think like a lot of autistic people about the return after the pandemic and how actually that's gonna work and yeah I don't know having had quite such a break from it the idea of I don't know how I used to do what I used to do and I'm not sure how I'll do it again I don't know what I don't know if you kind of feel that too but it's yeah it's been odd I mean look because I've been able to sort of work from home or develop things from home and we we when we weren't able to run events we we set up an activity plan scheme to send out train-based stuff to to to families and we've also done sort of broader sort of mentoring support to both families and the children and initially on on the the the challenges of working working or studying from home but there is now this sort of switching back it was very interesting during the first first lockdown where you got families being very vocal on on autism groups saying how wonderful lockdown was because their child didn't have to go to school and they didn't have all the pressures of school yeah and but then you actually got with that very black and white thinking what you then got quite the mention was actually my child's really struggling because they haven't got the the the sort of predictable setup so therefore anything doing anything at home is is is just about impossible so you again it was there are times when the the the autism community being because of its breadth has to occasionally think that it's it's actually that's to recognise itself and not be too too specific about it and yeah it will it will be different it's I think that's I think it will be and that then is is more difficult for autistic people to have to get their heads around it they'll some things will be easier some things will be will be different harder I suppose less working with with everybody in the same place at the same time makes it more easier for people to sort of disappear down their own particularly rabbit hole of knowledge information of things which looking back on it I know I used to do get a project and if I really like the project that was me sorted for the next three days and I've got everything else that I would think so yeah it does happen it's a yeah it's an odd one I think a lot of people have there's been inevitable underlying anxieties I noticed it myself from time to time as well where you just realise you know the big outside world out there when you go down to the shop you know yeah okay I'm feeling I'm feeling this way because for a good reason so it's I don't know I'm not quite sure how how how different it'll be but there is any any of these sort of transitions and also the transitions with regard to schools and things they're going back to a school which is very busy with sorting out it testing procedures and staff doing everything else as well so the even the schools with the best intentions and the best systems in place are going to be they're going to be less responsive and they're going to forget or not be able to get around to doing something which they may or may not have promised so it's yeah everybody's got a lot more things new things to think about it's a lot to lot to kind of process isn't there and how do you think that because I'm just kind of wondering here about the the work that you're doing and the power that seems to have about kind of creating this space and enabling your children to kind of have almost like a break from the world like how could a lot of the people who listen to my podcast will be kind of working in schools and other settings like that and how can they use maybe some of the lessons that you've learned in their environments to support children on the spectrum or with the ADHD yeah there's a couple of ways we've worked in schools both special schools and mainstream schools it's quite interesting to because what we do is quite sort of alternative and it's unstructured and hands off it doesn't quite sort of it can be seen as just a sort of fun activity for the kids and it can be sometimes difficult to sort of explain our the impact that that we have and it's one of the areas we'd love to develop knowing that we we are working with a sort of specialist audience so to speak of only some of the children but the our approach there would is actually to sort of flip it over a bit to the point where it's rather than it being the autistic ADHD child is the sort of is there on the periphery of something which is being organized for everybody it becomes their activity and we've had instances where we're very welcoming to siblings or friends who are neurotypical coming along and it's quite interesting seeing a neurotypical child in a room full of neurodiverse children doing their own thing and they look as out of place as an autistic child might look in a classroom with regard to the teaching side of things there were some lovely research just came out recently about basically saying look at look at special interests not as an obsession not as something you know if you finish your work in a primary setting you know Johnny can go and play with the trains at the back of the classroom just to sort of keep them quiet there they did the actual research where they would whatever the activity was the subject the worksheets they were working on they the teaching assistants in the classroom were struggling to get the autistic ADHD children focused because they were being given these whether they were able to do them or not one of the ability it was just the focus and in fact they were looking at it going why am I adding up you know oranges and lemons what is the point of this in that autistic sort of what is the purpose of this what they then did was they gave them exactly the same exercises to do but based on their special interests so they were now adding up trains adding up dinosaurs whatever and it was astonishing you're looking at it from my point of view I go what you mean you don't realize what would happen here and they got comments from the teaching assistants basically suggesting that you know they had they'd hardly finished handing out the worksheets and they got back to where they would normally sit to be able to sit next to them and go come on now now do the next one now you know how to do this and there they were all done whole sheet finished all done and and showing their true potential as well you know it was it was nine out of ten it was ten out of ten whatever it was and they're going oh hang on what was different about that there was one thing that was different they were doing it based on something they like they've learned exactly the same thing whatever it might be and you might have to be a little bit creative as to how you goodness knows how you make much of the secondary curriculum based around their special interests but I'm sure there are ways and or it's that thing of if if the the set work for English literature is whatever or the project in geography is about its own so well can you just give a twist it around or give them the option to to broaden it out into to going down the transport side of things because you will get you know a huge you will you will they will show what they're what they know what they're able to do from that and yes that's more work for the for the teachers and but it's it's it's it's beginning to happen and it's one of those things when you for that little bit of extra for a small group of children in the classroom you then it takes all the pressure off the the teaching staff and and you then can see what they're what they're able to do and it's not that sort of awkward thing of where you get the parents saying but then this isn't reflecting what I know they're capable of doing and yet and they do everything at home perfectly well but when they're in the classroom it's more difficult it's yeah it's subtle little tweaks occasionally it doesn't take a come it's not expecting one-to-one tuition for them it's just that little thing of hang on let's just give let's just focus it around something that they've or at least relate it to something that is of interest to them and dig that sort of mindset whether it's snakes or spiders or whatever it might be my it reminds me actually Lyra so as well as snakes space is her other thing and there was one time in the last year where she had done some kind of testing at school and it hadn't it hadn't gone well but with the exception of just one section where she'd excelled and she basically completely failed on all of it but this one section she got good marks on and we didn't know the context of what these different bits were and the only thing we could pick out was we thought the thing she'd done better on was nonfiction and then I just had this theory and I said what was the topic oh well it was about space ah okay yeah because you've naturally with that special interest you that they are they are the most hungry learners about it perhaps in a very non-fictiony facti sort of information grabbing type thing with what not necessarily challenging it but or seeing it seeing a bigger a bigger thing of it but that that can sort of that can that can develop over time let's say they the guy knows a bush head you'll I can just imagine him in that job they the bus company must be a year go for it mate you know because we you know what what he is producing they will know for well we'll work you know absolutely bang on because he's taken everything and probably a few extra things into account which most of the people just wouldn't have that day to day knowledge or or keenness to make it work as well they're not just doing it for the sake of it isn't it that kind of societal like interpretation of things I just found myself thinking you know somewhere in the background on my bookshelves is my PhD thesis and I just I mean really every PhD thesis is essentially a special interest isn't it you become the person who knows more about that one tiny thing in the whole world than anyone else which which is kind of cool but in another context we'd probably go that's a little odd wouldn't we but because you're doing it you know it's within the confines of a respectable path of study I think we're quite accepting of that as a society but if you know someone just went into that much detail of research of something without it being a PhD I'm not sure it would be quite do you know what I mean yeah I think they have their use in as much as that they that in that context if you're doing that sort of level of research you're being guided about the project and then make sure that there is something coming at the end of it not just a it's not just a mind dump of your information about African dictators you're actually there is a there is a reason for it which again it allows that sort of the the analytical side to hopefully come in and and it's perhaps more difficult to sort of convert it into a sort of real real life what are the real life implications of this rather than it just being you know I know all the Thomas characters in every single page they appeared in all of the different books yeah okay so what what what what's the next step up from that that can be more difficult so it's and and sometimes it it that is more than you know that they it's I suppose it's this thing of autistic people being seen as slightly sort of insular and whatever it is that it becomes it can be seen as being a sort of information gathering and without any purpose to it so it that's that is more difficult to sort of turn around but it but it is it is possible if people know how to how to work with people and guide them in a direction and and not get them down too many too many rabbit warrants for too long and it does purpose for it isn't it as you say because if someone can use their special interest to contribute towards their kind of their life their career their ability to connect and make a living that's got to be a great thing yeah um it's interesting as when I when I got my diagnosis I was I was I was still my head was still in sort of corporate world and going okay so what sort of jobs corporate jobs are best suited to me and there are organizations out there who don't necessarily go down they're not going down the special interest side of things but they're going down the we know that some autistic people are absolutely you know will will analyze things to the nth degree and be very good at pouring through huge amounts of data you're very consistent about it so there are organizations who provide jobs in in you know well very big well respected big multinationals but that I'm just wondering whether that's sort of um that's the process and and the and the thought process not necessarily their knowledge or their interest in it um so it it sort of makes them into a makes them into a thing a processing a processing thing you know a small cog in a very big rather than a um somebody with with potentially quite different very uh very outward looking sometimes um and and don't get me started on the whole autistic people aren't don't have any empathy um there is an awful lot of people thinking about others and looking at it actually they at the expense of themselves quite often quite often um so they're thinking about their impact on other people they're thinking about the impact of what what they do um and how others how they will be seen by others as well um so it's it's yeah the the job situation isn't it's an interesting one uh some special interest probably there isn't a great um practical use for them um but I think there's um and I think that that would help with with with that sort of the career guidance type stuff or the ability to sort of think about you know areas of study to try and not just look at cold facts of you know oh you got a a c or whatever the modern equivalent of it is in you know these three subjects therefore this would be a good thing for you to do actually try and try and turn it around um and go well what what else are you interested in how can we tie this all together um so you end up sort of a balance um just to keep keep opportunities there wow we've covered a lot of ground what um what what thought would you like to to close with I always think it's a really important moment you know leaving leaving people with something to go in and have a think about or do what thought would you like to leave people with it's interesting with there is there is always a need for more sort of understanding awareness and and it's it I realize I sort of work in a in a small sort of little a small bit of the autism community but the whole the whole special interest thing it is this thing of um like you were saying earlier seeing them in a seeing them in a different way that they are actually incredibly powerful incredibly positive they're positive for the people themselves they're not just doing it because it's the only thing they can do they're doing it they chose it then some of the subjects clearly they only chose it because their parents or their friends wouldn't have suggested it um and and so it it's then going okay this this shows a huge amount it's not in the traditional way you might have through school university or whatever um but it it's just a different way in to show their their abilities so then how you can use that as evidence if you wish um to go okay we know the classroom is difficult we know school is difficult we know you know these particular subjects are tricky for them it's very difficult for them to operate in these sort of areas but hang on here we here we have something that form doesn't contradict it but but uh you know sheds a very different light on it um so it's something to and it's difficult for them sometimes to actually you know own up to them because they they know they're a bit unusual in their level of detail or whether they you know it's it's appropriate for their age group or whatever um but there's there's lots of scope um so a little bit of flexibility uh a little bit of sort of digging around in that area can can work wonders