 Now, we have our second session today, and I'd like to very warmly welcome our panel for the First Nations session. And I'm going to introduce Heather, Heather McGregor, who is the Director of First Nations Student Success from Charles Sturtz University. Heather is going to facilitate the next panel session, Learning from First Nations Students, and we'll introduce panel members to us. Over to you, Heather. Okay, thank you very much. And before I go any further, I'd like to pay my respects to the traditional owners and custodians and elders of the lands or countries that we're all collectively joining from today. I'm sure it's quite a range of areas, given the virtual nature of this session. I think this is a very exciting session to hear from a First Nations panel. My role is working directly with teams that support First Nations students, so I feel honoured to be a facilitator today. I'm joining here from Birapai country, so I'd also like to acknowledge Birapai people. The topic that the panel has been asked to consider is how do we embed First Nations ways of knowing, doing an understanding in how we progress student partnership work within our institutions and the tertiary education sector. We've got three speakers to hear from for about 10 minutes each and then there'll be some time for questions and answers. So I don't want to take up any more time. I'll jump straight into the first speaker. So Kenan, Kenan Smith is the National Union of Students Indigenous Officer and the Flinders University Student Association First Nations Officer. And I'll hand over to you now Kenan. Hello, can you guys hear me? Sorry. Thank you for that welcome Heather. As Heather was saying, my name is Kenan. I'm a rural, running a group of the person from the far west coast of South Australia. And I use they then pronouns. And I'm currently in my final year of an Aramical Sciences degree at Flinders University. I'm running in from Ghana country select and knowledge of Ghana people as the traditional owners from the land that I'm speaking on. So I guess I could just play start with a quick. I guess by about how I kind of got into stupol or student politics. I noticed at my universities that there was a lack of. I wanted to know, I guess, processes or stuff in place that made the way that my role was elected culturally safe, if that makes sense. And I kept getting told over and over again, we can't we can't do this, we can't do that. And I had to constantly remind them that like, that these policies and regulations that are put in place were not created with us in mind. How was that fair for us if these policies were written in mind of the wider student population and not directly for First Nations students and how that is a form of institutional racism because institutions making these laws and not really taking consideration us, I guess. So that kind of segues into kind of I guess the topic of how do we embed First Nations ways of knowing, doing, understanding and how we progress student partnership work within institutions and tertiary education sector. So I guess from my experiences as a First Nations student at university. One way that one thing that I've always done was trying to find ways where it's in my assignment so when I'm at a lecture how can I incorporate First Nations knowledges into what I'm doing. And so like some simple things that I've done, like if it's an assignment based on a locality like I've acknowledged the traditional owners of that area. Even if it's an assignment based on Hong Kong. And my people in Hong Kong and they're from the Columbia. So like I spoke a bit about that kind of history and stuff like that this is a little things like that that could be done and I think on a higher level. I went to reconciliation breakfast this morning that was hosted by reconciliation South Australia and we had people like Karen Munding who's a CEO reconciliation Australia. And we had a professor who's the Vice Chancellor for Indigenous at my university at Flinders. And one of the statements that she had made in order for reps to be effective is that organizations and institutions have to acknowledge the role that they have had and still playing colonization. Which I think is very important to universities because in the past universities have notoriously been spaces where its work has often been to our detriment as First Nations people. And many of the ideas around race, religion, I guess racial superiority. Came from these came from these institutions like we came from universities and have led to the creation of policies and actions that were ultimately made to either contain or eradicate us. So I think that's also a good point when looking at universities is looking at like it's kind of roll in the past and also that's rather still has and all of these ideas. Yeah. And like I was saying before, when it came down to my experiences with student politics and I kept hearing, I kept hearing those excuses or those answers such as or policies or regulations and allow us to do that will abolish them. Like, like I said before, like these, these things were created, not in mind of us, but in mind for everyone else. And I think another thing with, with ways of knowing and doing, especially from our perspective. And those include like shared histories. So being uncomfortable as a part of this process. So often these conversations, they're not always going to be rainbows and butterflies that they are quite unsettling and uncomfortable. Even as First Nations people like often to hear our own histories and even when it's like histories that are from my own people like I come from an area where we've had a massacre site and like even as a First Nations person hearing that like I'm often quite unsettled and it is quite sad because my people that they were ultimately killed off. But I think once we get to that point where we can have those conversations that are unsettling and uncomfortable. Then we can get to a point where we've acknowledged and engaged with it. Then we can get to a point where we can address it. You get to a point where solutions can start being done and created. Yeah, I guess, I don't know what else to say. I guess I've always been a strong advocate for having stuff in place that's going to ensure cultural safety for First Nations students and staff and people. When we engage and come to universities, a lot of us have come from places where there's been a lot of barriers that have prevented us from getting there. We're not preventing us from getting there, but I've kind of made our journey a lot harder to get to universities. Like a lot of us often are coming, like the first ones in my family to go to university or we've had a lot of stuff against us getting to university. So I think the last thing we need is coming to these spaces where either we're pitted against one another or there are teaching and learning spaces that are quite unsafe and we're being taught. I guess this engaging with these topics where they're describing us as being in the past or being the other. And I think that also needs a change. And I think universities are shifting in the right direction when it comes to not othering us. Yeah, I guess from a student politics sort of thing. The one thing that I'd like to see, and this is through my experiences with NUS and also through USS, which I'm the outgoing president for is more cohesion of student bodies in our respective state and territory. So I guess engaging within the universities, but also allowing university Indigenous students or First Nations students from each university to engage in one another and to kind of get together and discuss what are our issues and problems on campus. I think this will ensure better advocacy and understanding of our issues and problems and lead to better solutions. Because what might work in one state or territory might not necessarily work in another. I guess as First Nations people we are quite diverse and often there are things that are universal amongst us, but then there are issues and stuff that are unique to our regions. Yeah, I don't really know what else to say. So I'll leave it there. Okay, well thank you very much, Keenan, for sharing your point of view. And when we get to the Q&A you might think of a few more things you want to add, but really appreciate everything that you have put forward. I can certainly hear a lot of parallels in what you've shared and what we hear from students in our university as well. So a lot of important issues that you've brought up there. We might move on to our second panel member then, so we're keeping as much time as we can at the end for questions. So Mama Arora Marita is the past co-president of Te Mana Akama. I apologise for any incorrect pronunciation there, but I'll hand over to you now to explain a little bit more about yourself and share your point of view. Kia ora. I am a past president of the Māori Tertiary Students Association, the National Māori Tertiary Students Association, as well as a past president of the Māori Students Association of the University of Auckland. I did make a slideshow, but I think I might just go up here and talk to you guys informally. But before I actually talk about how I started in student politics, I will actually introduce myself. So that right there is my paper, and it shows my genealogical links to the land and to my mountain, Matafauda, my lake, Rotuiti, my river Ohau, and alongside my waka that my ancestors came to Aotearoa on Te Arawa. And I am a proud member of the Te Arawa tribe, alongside the Ngāti Pigeo and Ngāti Whakoe sub-tribe. So sorry it might be a little bit fast for you guys, letting this language. But that's who I am, and that's the history that came before me, and I'm very happy to have been born into this. But my journey into student politics started at the University of Auckland as a Bachelor of Health Science student. We have Māori Student Associations at all eight of our universities in New Zealand. And it just so happened that I had been a pretty active member of my Māori Student Association and we were getting to our AGM when we voted New Presidents. So I was around that time that I got asked to step up and take on a leadership role. And at first I actually wasn't too... I was still quite new to the whole student politics scene and what, you know, what governance looked like and what input our Māori students had. But I stepped in wanting to make a change and a difference for Tauera Māori in tertiary education. So Tauera is just students. As soon as I stepped into the role, I started taking on different... I took on quite a few leadership positions. So I sat on the academic board known as Senates for the University of Auckland. I also sat on the Discipline Committee for the University of Auckland as well. And in every group where they needed Māori voice or even student voice, I was fortunate enough to have been given a seat and to be able to sit at that governance level to advocate for the students that I represented. So I was fortunate enough to have all of these opportunities given to me. And so as I talk today, I talk from those experiences. One thing I do want to touch on too, before I actually jump into Māori student voices, is that I can only talk about the experiences of Māori. So I know that our experiences here in New Zealand are remarkably different than our cousins over in Aitirādia, then the Tangata whenua there. So that's one thing I do just want to remind you, Brian, is we have a huge difference, especially in regards to the fact that we have Tertiary, our founding document. So that's one clear point I want to share with you when I talk. But I stepped into these roles, yes, quite green. But I started realising that a lot of work needed to be done to ensure that Māori student voice was being heard and being included, but that the engagement with Māori students was actually authentic. And so I started at a regional level at a single university. But after a year advocating in this space, I saw that there needed to be a lot of work done nationally. And so I ended up stepping into Te Mana Akunga, the National Māori Students Association. I do want to kind of break down some of the experiences and the challenges and some of the opportunities. But before I go into that, I'll give a quick breakdown of the structure of Te Mana Akunga. So at the University of Auckland, we have Ngā Kawera Māori, the Māori Students Association, and they are just one branch of a much larger tree. And that tree is Te Mana Akunga, our National Māori Students Association. Each university has a branch, so we're very fortunate enough to have strong Māori student voice in our universities. And we do have a few polytechnics in there. In the session before us, I know Andrew talked about Te Pukega and the reforms to the vocational education system that has hugely impacted us. And so we don't have as much as strong a Māori student voice in that space, given the huge changes that's happened there. But in regards to Māori student voice, we still managed to have four polytechnics linked into Te Mana Akunga. So hopefully I'm painting a clear picture, but we have this tree here of Māori student voice and representatives across the country. Now how it works is that each individual institution and organisation, so our universities and our polytechnics, our associations decide amongst themselves who would be their best leaders or who's going to be the executive, or the core group of students that will be mandated to speak on behalf of those students. And so those are known as our kaiātahi or our caretakers, which is the literal translation. What we have with our tree is all of those different executives that are voted into their executives by their peers come together to form this tree, and that's what makes Te Mana Akunga. So that's our Māori student network of Māori student executives that work together really to advocate for students, to represent students, and to make sure that Māori student interests are heard, not just at the regional level, but at the national level. And so I came through that tree, really. I was a small little branch at first, and then I magically ended up being the president for a few years there. One thing I want to touch on is that historically it was around about the 60s. We didn't have a formalised Māori student voice that you'd see right now for a long time, really. It wasn't until around the 60s, 70s, that we started having Māori student protests that actually led to the formalisations of these Māori student associations at the regional level. So I'm not sure if you've heard of it, but there's an incident known as the Haka Party Incidents, and I think some of our First Nations might have heard of that, where in the 70s some of our Māori students were overwhelmed with non-Māori students making a mockery of our culture, that there was actually an altercation there, and that was actually the formation of one of our student associations. So just to give you some update, that's where we were founded from, from Māori students, not feeling like their voices were heard and recognising that they needed to actually not just come together, but actually formally formalise their groups so that they could make sure that when it came to the best interests of Māori students, there was a clear structure there that could be sustained and followed. And so that's the whakapapa from which Timana Akunga comes from. Now I do apologise. I realise I use Māori words really fast, and I recognise not everyone here is going to be an expert. So in the panel time, you can ask me to clarify some of these words, sorry. In regards to our mahi, it came from our older students, our older generations, not being happy with the way things were, and that's where we step in. In regards to Timana Akunga at present, again we have 14, linking back to the universities and the polytechnics, we actually have 14 Māori tertiary student associations across Aotearoa. We have a strong network, but it looks different at each institution. So I mentioned earlier about how I was fortunate enough to sit on our academic board for the University of Auckland and how I was fortunate enough to have those opportunities. There's only one other university that actually has a seat written for their Māori student leaders to have those same opportunities. In most instances, Māori student voices are actually very limited, and we have a huge problem here with the non-Māori student presidents. Everything automatically going to them and us being left with whatever scraps there are left for us. So that's one big challenge that we're finding over here is that how our systems work is we're often, and I think Andrew briefly touched on it and has called it all, we're often fighting amongst other students for resources and so that's a huge problem across the board with all of our student associations is we find ourselves in contention with our non-Māori student leaders because we're both battling really just to get the best for our students and that's one of our huge, that's one huge weakness that I want to touch on. Another thing is that with our Māori student leaders we found that in most instances we're ignored, we're forgotten or excluded from governance positions and from boards and from having a say. So that's a huge problem that's been, that's affected all of our student associations on so many levels and that hasn't properly been redressed. But we, as a collective, we're starting to come together and have those hard conversations with those in governance positions so that they're starting to actually hear our concerns and that's why I love Fīti Angaro, which was the model we talked about before. That's a way forward to actually building those stronger partnerships that are actually authentic and allow us to be heard. Another big problem from Māori student leaders that sit at the governance level is that we often find that our engagement is quite tokenised. So in my experience I found that I was really only put in some rooms just to tick the box just to say, oh yeah, a Māori student came in here and it was a part of the discussions and yeah, that's fine. And that was something that was quite hard because as I said before I came in quite green to this role I didn't even recognise it for a few weeks there so it took me some training from outside sources to recognise, hey, you know, I'm actually being used in some of these meetings and so that was a big problem with Māori student leaders as they felt that, yes, their engagement was tokenised in some ways. A big issue that's come up lately is that most of our leaders are not compensated for taking on leadership roles or it's not enough. So just a few weeks ago we had a Māori student leader that actually resigned from her role because she wasn't getting paid at the same amount that the non-m Māori student leader was being paid. This is a very brief overview. There's a lot of history there but I got to a point where our Māori student leaders don't want to do this work anymore because they see that their non-m Māori peers are being honoured or are being valued at a different rate to them and that makes them want to disengage really. I'm trying to make this more positive. I'm being this more positive. But if a Māori student voice, yes, I realise, I'm going to try to leave you guys with some opportunities. I see that SVA is in its formative stages so if I could offer any guidance it would be that when you are, as you're putting in your structures in place, making sure that it's an authentic partnership rather than just a one-way comes in this meeting and will give you this plan and if you just say yes or no, actually allowing Indigenous students to be a part of the build. That was one of our big points that came across in my years and in my experience doing Māori student associations. Making sure that students are compensated. I'm not sure if they touched on this earlier but that was one of our huge problems is that students didn't want to. Māori students that had the capabilities to be leaders didn't because they didn't see any value to it when they weren't being properly compensated for actually taking on a huge role in responsibility. So that was a huge problem that we came in so that could be redressed. I do think I dispute quite a lot of information. I'll wait for the Q&A's but in regards to Māori student voice we're quite lucky to have had a huge history of our tūakana, our elders, our older generations having fought a lot of the hard battles, having done heaps of the protests to get to a point where at our governance level they were actually, we've built relationships with them and we've started these conversations but there's still a lot of room for improvement which is the big thing I wanted to get across. There's so many points that our students complain about year on year that just haven't been changed yet and in SVA moving forward and setting some structures in place I just recommend taking note of some of those barriers we experienced because even though it's Māori and we're on a different island it could easily happen to the same First Nations students over there and so that was something that we quite easily put up on that were consistent things. Thank you guys for listening to me and I'll pass it over to the next panellist, Kia ora. Yeah, so a big thank you for sharing your experience and your story. I thought it was fascinating and I wish we had a lot more time because it would be great to hear a lot more about the experience there and I'm sure others in the session would agree. So if we move now to the third panellist we've got Dr Charlene Lee-Roy Dyer who's the Associate Prime Director for Indigenous Engagement at the School of Business in the University of Queensland and also Immediate Past President of the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Postgraduate Association. So I'll hand over to you now. Thanks Heather. Wurri Miangani, Naya Charlene, Garibor, Goringa, Dara Goratri. What we call... I just want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land. I'm Carmen. I'm also on Gabi Gabi country. Though I work at UQ on the lands of the Terrible and Niagara peoples. I'm just sitting here listening to our sister from across the ditch thinking how much is what you're going through in New Zealand is exactly what we go through here. You know, the token is there being undervalued, underpaid and I was thinking about what Kenan was saying too, like NUS, National Union of Students a few years ago decided that the Indigenous officer shouldn't get paid anymore. So, you know, that's pretty awful. But yeah, so I was kind of thinking about that as we were talking. So I just want to talk a little bit about myself and our organisation and what we actually do. So I myself have been in student politics for over 20 years and that was when I first came to be an undergraduate student at the University of Newcastle and I noticed that some people are on there from University of Newcastle. And when I came into the university we didn't have positions on the student associations for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. So I remember one day going on to our... it was called NUSA at the time and going on to NUSA and saying, well, why isn't there an Aboriginal position? And then they said, well, why should there be? And so it was this justification about why Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as sovereign peoples of this country should have a space in student politics and representing students throughout the university. So through my undergraduate degree and I was always on the student union. And then when I became a postgraduate I had to go through the exact same thing. So our postgraduate association at that time had an equity officer but there was no Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander representation. So I went along to the AGM and I'm saying why is there no representation? And so they quickly changed the constitution and made a position. And I was the inaugural Aboriginal person on that committee. Then I went on to become president of that association. But I think that one of the things that we need to think about as Aboriginal people is that sometimes we're an afterthought when it comes to student voices. And I think that there are a lot of gaps that we have where we need to have a voice and how we actually progress that. So when I was in the postgraduate student association I decided that I wanted to have a voice nationally. And we have two postgraduate student associations in Australia. One is the council of Australian postgraduates and one is Natsipa. So I was the... I went on to Kappa and then I was talking at Kappa holding a different position and then I went on to be their national Aboriginal officer and I held that position for seven years which ironically it was really hard to get other students to step up into that position and I wanted to actually touch on why that is. And I was thinking about this in two aspects. One is that sometimes when we're on these committees or bodies whether it be students within universities or whether it be national sometimes it's a tokenistic gesture. You know, let's have an Aboriginal person or let's have a Maori person but that person's not really listened to or they're not actually given anything substantial to do in that role and I think that that's a real missed opportunity for those organisations. And secondly, I think about the commitments that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students have within their families, within their communities and the fact that we only have 3% population. Sometimes it's very hard to get people to actually step up because of their commitments. So I was kind of thinking along those lines when I was thinking about what I wanted to say today and you know in Natsipa for instance I'm the immediate past president I was a president for a few years and it was very difficult to find people to actually step up into that role because of all the different obligations that we have. And so I was just thinking about you know how far we've come over the 20 years that I've been in student politics and advocating for Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander students and back in the day like we basically didn't have very many voices but today thankfully we have voices such as Natsipa sits on the Texas Student Export Advisory Group so Texas is the tertiary education quality standards Australia. And so we have a voice on there to ensure that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voices are heard right throughout tertiary education sector and Kenan will say you know Kenan sits on there as far as you access skies. You know we do have Student Voice Australia and we thank Student Voice Australia for actually ensuring that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voices are heard and that's really important. We have Kappa which is the Council of Australian Postgraduates where Natsipa sits on as well but we also sit on the Minister's Student Advisory Group and that's only such a new group that was formed last year where we actually have a voice straight to the Minister and that's the first time ever that we've been heard singularly at a national level and had the Minister listening to what we need to say and I think that when I think about student organisations and how far they've come they've still got a long way to go we're still sometimes seen as tokenist but I think that we're actually moving in the right direction. So that's enough for me. Thank you very much for sharing your point of view. I am conscious of time. I think we have ten minutes left. Just so you're aware there's four questions in the Q&A. I can read them out but if anyone wants to answer if we can keep the answers to a couple of minutes it might mean we can get through before they're there. So the first one is how do you make goals achievable and get First Nations people's needs on the agenda and not get stuck in the bureaucracy of the institution? Does anyone want to have a go at answering that? I think one of the things is that we have to be really vocal and before coming here I was actually in the Executive Committee of my university because we're putting together a rapid implementation plan and if we don't actually step up and we don't actually voice what we need then we're never going to be heard. But I think it's about having people ready to step up and say this is what we need and doing that in consultation with our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students because sometimes it does get bogged down and unless we keep pushing and I think that that's one of the things about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and I'm sure it's the same for Maori is that we have to actually do that initiative we have to actually say well hey you have to listen to us we have to progress it and we have to be sometimes really I'm trying to think of the right word but we have to actually push, push, push and if we don't push then we don't get anywhere so I think it's about making sure that our voices are there in the first place and then putting everything on the agenda and not going away until somebody actually listens to us. Okay, well thank you very much for responding to that question, Charlene. The next one is how can educators and student affairs professionals be proactive in making sure systems are accepting of and empowering for First Nations students their perspectives and experiences. What kind of questions do you ask when looking at policies and procedures? Does anyone want to have a go at responding to that question? I can. Okay, great thank you. I think the first step would be our institutions and our organisations in particular need to acknowledge that there is in some instances structural racism there I think you know before we even start trying to build relationships with Indigenous students you need to acknowledge the historical context and all of the different determinants that have impacted on students before they even get in the door and you know once you do that once you acknowledge it and you understand it that's when you can then work in partnership with our Indigenous students to empower them and that is something we've been a little bit caught up in on our end is there some you know being wary of the audience you know some institutions and some professionals aren't willing to make that first step just to acknowledge racism and to acknowledge the impacts that you know and the different the negative experiences that our Indigenous students have had and that's a huge barrier to empowering them is not accepting that hey maybe you know some of these institutions were made to colonise our students and that's something that needs to be acknowledged before we can do anything before we can empower them and put them into positions and you know ask their perspectives and for their experiences I might throw it over if anyone else has anything to add to that too Can I talk on this as well? I'd also like to focus more on that kind of the perspectives and experiences like putting value on knowledge experiences and even on all of this like as First Nations people we come with a different I guess perspective and different lived experiences and often I don't think that our experiences as First Nations people is really considered or really taken on what's the right word like it's really often I think it's overlooked like even like when it comes to embedding known knowledges so knowledges into like into universities like I don't even think that's like it's not even taken seriously like often when I put it into like assignments and stuff like that like I don't even think it's really noted and it's not even encouraged like in a lot of courses that I've done like I'm doing an environmental sciences degree and we're learning about the Australian environment and the fact that I've had little to no First Nations content in my degree is embarrassing really like the fact that we're learning about like our environment I guess I don't want to pigeonhole like First Nations people into being caretakers of the environment because that's just one of our many roles but the fact that we're not even being considered or like an example of this is when there was a timeline shown of 10,000 years in terms of land usages in Europe and then 10,000 years in Australia for 9,800 years they put us down as hunter-gatherers and then over in Europe there was like the Bronze Age this and that and just like how demeaning that was just to be called hunter-gatherers you know like and this is within universities I think educators and students affairs professionals should honestly really look at these policies and procedures and identify what in these policies and procedures actually cause time to us and how can they be changed or removed but yeah that's all I have to say Alright well thank you both for your responses I know we've got about four minutes left and there's three more questions so I might tackle at least one more so what's the best way in your opinion to promote diversity within student representative bodies and ensure First Nations students are included and represented without it becoming tokenistic I'm happy to talk to that one I think that I've you know I've done a fair bit of work around this one at a university and a national level and I think it's all about ensuring that if we have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander or Maori people on these committees that they actually have tangible things that they're doing that progress the agendas of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students or of Maori students and I think that that's one of the major things like just imagine you're a president of a student association you have a portfolio of things that you need to do and that's the same for us you know consult with your student cohorts and see what are the goals that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students or Maori students need within that you know community and then actually do tangible goals that somebody's got got ownership of because if we don't have ownership of our own staff and then you know that is tokenistic then so I mean that's my take. Okay well thank you for that response I think we only have probably a minute and a half I'm just conscious of the next session and respecting the time of the next people can I just check if we need to wrap up now I think we've probably got time for another question okay great sorry about that then so if we move to the next question what do you do when your role is purely advisory as well can you still achieve change within a campus does anyone want to respond to that one I can speak to that okay so I'm fortunate enough from my student association work I've been recently appointed to a ministerial advisory group that's focused on tertiary education for Māori so I know exactly what that feels like being on an advisory group and being the student voice really and it is hard because what we say in the recommendations we put across there's actually no guarantee that the minister's going to listen to it but how we work it is we recognise that it's still a position of value and even our budget bits don't go through stuff like that doesn't happen we're still putting the kōrero we're still putting these it's hard I'm trying to think what's the English equivalent to kōrero we're still putting the kōpapa on the table and sorry I realised I used too much Māori in my descriptions but we see value in advisory work and especially in my role in that it's even though there's no guarantee you might get what you want across the line it's still the fact that you're doing it and you're putting it out there is a huge move enough that's a huge step in comparison to not doing anything and not having an advisory group there to talk to our ministers about what needs to be done in tertiary education and so that's hopefully see if any of my peers want to answer it as well yeah I was just going to say I think that you're totally right about that but I do want to say one thing please don't ever apologise for using your language because in Australia we have very few of it and it would be I love to hear Māori talk so yeah just going to say that yeah okay that as well and I'd just like to say a really big thank you to everyone who shared their stories and experience in this panel it's been fascinating and I've certainly learnt a lot and if time allowed I'd love to keep listening for hours more I think it's fantastic that there has been a First Nations panel session in the Student Voice Australia Symposium particularly as it's the start of Reconciliation Week today and I'll hand back over now to Phillipa thank you so much Heather and also Keenan Mamaro and Charlene that was an absolutely fantastic panel session thank you for sharing your reflections and really your very personal reflections and journeys and experiences with us I think I can speak for everybody in saying how much we do appreciate that and I think what you've certainly reminded me is of the challenges and barriers you've also reminded me of the I think somebody perhaps it was Mamaro who sort of said this isn't just a you know this isn't just a story of difficulty it's also a story of change and evolution and a kind of positive direction of travel which I think is great but you've certainly given me a lot of food thought and not least about what the Student Voice Australia itself as a network can and should be doing as we try to empower and assist students and institutions to address the kinds of barriers and experiences that you've been talking about so thank you tremendously for that it's hugely appreciated