 Hello and welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today I'm in conversation with Val Bolam and our question is, how does Western education impact on the mental health of our young people? Could it be time for change? Okay, my name is Val Bolam. I am a specialist, teacher assistant at work in special needs high school with students with challenging behaviours and on the autistic spectrum. I love my job, I work with a fantastic team. My background however was in, my training was in social care, so that's where I came from, but my interest was always towards special needs always and even at college that was the module I loved, it was the placement I loved the most, so I kind of knew really that it was going to go in that direction at some point. After taking a step out, career, blah blah blah, having children, getting married, doing all that, melange, I went back to work and that was when I hit education, so that was about, I don't know, 11 or 12 years ago, something like that and I went straight into working with children on the SCN register in a mainstream high school, so I've supported in mainstream, I've supported in special schools and I've supported right the way through from nursery age, right through to sixth form and recently I had a few months working in a college which was a whole other ball game and it was just as interesting, it was really good. I am intensely passionate about the students that I work with and that they are understood, that's my main thing and I had the privilege of working when I first went into education with a fantastic SCN core and she gave me the most amazing advice as a teaching assistant. She just said you're neither teacher nor friend, you're the middle road and you're a bit of both and you're reflecting both sides to each other in mainstream, absolutely. In special school setting, it's slightly different, you are more, you're just staff, simple as and I love it, I just love it, so yes, so here I am talking to you. Thank you and actually I think I can't not say thank you to you for the input that you've had over the last few months and you've come to more than one of our courses and taking the stage when I've handed the mic over and really helped people with really practical ideas about how we can support children at this sort of really challenging juncture and I love your practical approach and how down to earth it is and so many people have benefited from the ideas and resources that you've put together. So thank you. So today we come with a really big and deep and gnarly question so the question of the episode was how does Western education impact on the mental health of our young people and could it be time for a change? So why this question, why did this kind of come up for you? This was you that put this question forward. It was me and my big mouth. I was doing a course online during lockdown about mental health awareness with young people and young adults and it was a question that was posed as one of the modules, it was an assignment that was to be done so it was to watch these two small video clips and answer this question based on what thoughts have been provoked from watching the videos and it just, it woke up a whole thing in me that I think has been dormant for some time you know big questions, it's all good having big questions but you know how on earth do we make big changes and that's a challenge and I think over the years you kind of you put those things aside you think okay this is my bit I can do my bit but it sort of all came tumbling out to be honest and it all came out in an essay and then I just thought I want to do something with this but I don't know where to start and as I got to know you a little bit I thought you might be able to give me an idea as to where I could maybe discuss this or send it and here we are discussing it. Yeah indeed and tell me I mean so what was your kind of take on this because obviously you've worked with children and young people who perhaps have been more impacted hence they've ended up sort of working with yourself and on the SCN register or with kind of known mental health issues so I'm guessing you're going to say yes it has an impact but yeah you know don't let me put words in your mouth let me know what did you say in your essay? I am basically the two videos are fascinating by the way and that absolutely I think they're a really good watch and they both look at it slightly differently the first one is called play the game of life and it's a talk that was given by a guy called Alan Watts who's a British philosopher and the video has been put to his talk later and it kind of rolls into the question of we're always looking for the next thing and our education system and the way that we train our children and we raise our children and even into adulthood we're always looking for the next thing so every step that we take is just preparation for what's next so we never get that feeling of getting there we never kind of feel like we achieve anything in lots of ways and I think that can be incredibly damaging to young people to young children in particular and I think when that rock sets in early on which I think it does in more children than I think we would like to admit if I'm honest then I think when that sets in young you're at the thin end of the wedge then and then you're dealing with self-esteem issues you're dealing with ideas of not being able to achieve of never feeling like it's worth it because you're never going to get there and I see a lot of that in the older children the older students that I've worked with where they're completely disinfected what's the point, what's the point what's the point in this, what's the point in that so he was very much looking at it from that point of view the second one was really mind-blowing and that was by a guy called Sir Ken Robinson and he's an education and creativity expert and again it was a video that was put to a talk that he had done some years ago but the way that they did it was done by the RSA the World Society for Encouragement of Arts and whatever and there was a guy, he kind of illustrates the talk as it's being given and it's fabulous I'm very visual, I like to see things so for me it was fabulously thought-provoking and he came at this from the idea of that our education system, our current education system was kind of founded during the time of of what's known as I've come to understand is the time of enlightenment and the industrial revolution and it was necessary at the time and it was founded on the whole factory system so even the way that we run our school day so we go in and then there's a bell for break and then we all go off for break and we have a little break and then we come back and we carry on working again and he also challenges the idea that how we group children together why do we group them by age why don't we group them by ability why don't we group them by need why don't we group them by preference of learning style why do we particularly think that every child is going to be at the same stage of development following their age so it threw up so many questions for me and I think for me in this current climate with the whole COVID situation that we're in we have an opportunity to really stand back and examine what we do and also the essay kind of took me in the direction of thinking about how we value or don't value various forms of intelligence so we look at intellectual academic intelligence and that our whole school system is about academic intelligence and there are so many other forms of intelligence and I kind of wrote a little story in the essay about a guy who, and I've seen this in school myself especially in mainstream, I have seen this where you've got your students who are studying BTEC they're following a BTEC format of learning and then you've got your JCSA students, they are following that the subject matters the same the outcomes are the same, the learning is the same how it's taught is different, how it's recorded is different how it's assimilated is different, how it's assessed is different but the knowledge is the same and yet we don't see photographs on the front of the newspaper of our BTEC students jumping up and down when they get their certificates and I'm not by any means minimising the importance of academic intelligence I think there is all forms of intelligence and my opinion should be celebrated and I think where I've seen this polarisation in schools there's often a superior kind of air around your JCSA student cohort and it's almost like they are just the BTEC students and it's that attitude so this little story that I kind of told was about somebody who was a JCSA high flyer and went on eventually to become a professor of mathematics or science or something like that but something like that but he absolutely loved the theatre and he was often the first on his feet to applaud and because he was a professor of mathematics there were even circles where we could meet some of the thespians that he would go to see and this particular night he went to see performance and loved this performance it was in his hometown, it was a touring company he met the lead guy and the lead guy went, nice to meet you don't remember me do you remember me? I think for me I know that's very sweeping it's very cliche but I've seen that attitude in school and sadly not just from students sadly I've seen that from staff too and I think we're setting up our young people to be protected and to undermine themselves at every turn if you're not an academic achiever sorry that was a rather long-winded answer to your question it was quite a long answer I don't apologise I found it very thought provoking actually and I wonder what do you think we should be doing differently because as you said tonight reflecting on this moment when for the first time in living memory my living memory certainly that exams have been cancelled or things have happened differently temporarily but you're suggesting that maybe this is the moment for a bit of a reset what should it look like instead? In an ideal world I think we should go right back to the drone board I think it is I think we could easily say no it's too big it's too challenging it's too hard but when I think about those guys back in the industrial revolution there was no education system at all and they put it together and it was a massive challenge and I'm sure they were told this is not a good idea this is not going to work and I also think that there are a million people who can approach it I think interestingly enough I was talking to my niece recently who lives in Germany and her boys go to a school there where they are set by their ability they're not set by just their age and they have year groups mixed together I think we could learn a lot from that system Scandinavian systems and from other approaches around the world and I think just because it's always been done this way doesn't mean it has to always be done this way it's going to be challenging it's going to be expensive it's going to be difficult but does that mean we shouldn't give it a go? I think we should Do you think there are for some students the circumstances benefits to how things are happening now because it feels that we're moving obviously the pandemic aside that we're moving more in the opposite direction than what you're saying like the introduction of the phonics testing for example and certainly I saw something shared on Twitter yesterday that wasn't from the UK but from Australia I think it was southern Australia talking about how massively the ability of children to read that phonics testing I found myself wondering or have they just got better at passing the test I don't know I didn't really delve into it I think that having been involved in delivering a couple of different phonics programmes over the years I think there's great value to a phonics programme I think there are a number of good ones out there that are all based on the same idea and I think there is benefit to those things I think that's much more beneficial than a lot of the models that we've had in the past and certainly more beneficial than wrote learning and just copying My only question is do we bring this in a little early in this country again harking back to Scandinavia I understand that there were some studies done there and I can't cite them because it was years ago and I read them but the idea being there they begin formal education much later than we do in this country and yet by the time our children are about 9 years of age it's much of a muchness in terms of development so a question is there validity in starting so early are we there's a whole question around testing generally but I think phonics as an approach is absolutely spot on I think it's a great way to go and again you can't remove academic learning and understanding I wouldn't want to at all I think to undervalue that is just as damaging as undervaluing everything else but we've just we're out of balance we're out of kilter and there's more to celebrate than that Talk to me about that idea around the starting age I know that's something that you specifically have got strong views on about what age maybe children should be starting because you've worked as you said in your introduction with children right across the age range including the tinies education are there other things that you feel would be helpful at that age or what are the things that you know as parents and as educators we should be wanting for our children on what age I think if we're looking at formal education I'll stick my neck out and say maybe we shouldn't be going there until they're about 6 if I'm honest just on what I've read and what I've seen I think in terms of emotional development and looking at this from a mental health point of view in terms of stability and resilience and all of those things I think we remove our children I think a little too soon from the home environment I would like to see a lot more support out there for parents whoever they may be to be able to stay at home if they want to stay at home with their kids one of the things I struggled with when my mum was a low income family as we were at the time it was very difficult now I was going to be supported to go to work my childcare would be paid for and yet I wanted to stay at home with my children I wanted to be there with them in those formative years and I think in terms of attachment with attachment disorders it all starts there and if we can preserve that nurturing kind of place for as long as possible I think we're on to a winner for the future in terms of provision before that it needs to be play based as far as I'm concerned absolutely phenomenal as far as I see it as far as I understand it I think it's a wonderful model and they create the environment for children to learn and explore I think that's one thing that we sometimes forget that playing is a really important way of learning isn't it and I had Greg Botroul on the podcast a few weeks ago who's a play expert which I'm a bit jealous of but he was talking to me about you know how as adults we can let go a bit and actually learn to play and be more playful in our approach and how children of all ages can really learn a lot and he was talking to me because in the current context where many children and families and educators are quite anxious about how much learning time has been lost and how do we rebuild you know make up for lost time and rebuild those connections and he was really advocating for this very playful approach right across the ages and yeah I wonder how that kind of marries up with your thoughts so saying it should be play based that doesn't necessarily mean learning is not happening does it No absolutely not in fact I think quite the opposite I think in that environment I think more learning takes place because if we create an environment where our children are relaxed and they're comfortable and they feel safe and they feel understood and they feel nurtured and it's a warm welcome environment to pinch one of your phrases then I think you know that enables learning that enables learning and I think that's the same right way through but I think particularly for our very young children at the moment returning to school is can be traumatic for a lot of them some of them not so much and that's great that's fantastic but I think we need to be mindful of those who are finding it difficult definitely. And just playing devil's advocate a little bit you said some of the children that you've worked with who are on the SCN register have had attachment disorder and I'd just be interested to pick that apart a little bit because you know arguably it might be that for some of those children they're coming to school too soon and they're not ready and that causes that difficulty and that separation anxiety but for some of those children it might be that those difficulties are there because there's challenge in the home and that for them actually being in a safe environment at school might be really important. Yeah, absolutely and I think this is where we need to be more I don't know perhaps fluid in our approach and I think people has moved towards being more nurturing over the last few years for sure and I know that that's resisted sometimes but I actually think if we can if we can further nurture then where we have children who are in difficult home circumstances and the multidisciplinary approach of you know other agencies involved then if we can up the ante of that you know having some specialists maybe set in school you know some you know some counsellors, some school counsellors and all of these things within the school environment then I think we can aid our children to move forward and also you know just the understanding of how it all works and for me a big green light was the whole idea of when we come to adolescence when our children come to adolescence how we've got an opportunity there you know the whole neurological process breaks down and New Europe pathway is formed and we have a wonderful opportunity there to to reinforce and to create new memories to create new ways of understanding and I think if we can marry those two things together and if we can understand those things a little bit more no matter if we're teaching maths science or drama doesn't matter what we're doing if we can have that understanding then I think we're in a place where we can take that opportunity and we can help our young people with attachment disorders What does that look like in practice? I think it needs to be massively personalised and one of the schools I worked in there's a lady who works there and she she's called a learning mentor in that particular school and she does some work with parents and families and carers and such like but a lot of what she does is on the nurture side with her students and I think where opportunities for children to be able to have anchor points in the day to have those points where they know there's a safe person and a safe place that they can connect to I think that's vital special schools do it well some mainstream schools do it well some mainstream schools try really hard to do it well but are under resourced for whatever reason mainstream schools don't seem to have it in their thinking and I think I'm not saying that that's anybody's fault it's just the way that things have evolved I think it's an awareness that I would love to see those pockets of safety in every school in the country without shadowing it out that's what I would love to see and that's I think part of the challenge isn't it is that it's difficult when looking at a system that maybe doesn't quite feel like what we would want optimally and being able to envisage this utopian vision of what education might look like but we have to be realistic about what we can meaningfully change and so what do you think we can do kind of each of us every day I mean you're someone who's worked right on the front line as a teaching assistant supporting children for many years and I think that staff like yourself I work with people like you all the time and I think you often don't like there's often a lack of confidence there or feeling like I'm just a teaching assistant I hear that a lot and actually I think that for many children and particularly the kind that we're thinking about today who find the education system isn't quite meeting their needs you're the most important people of all but what do you think what can you do that makes a difference there if we can't change the system how can we change it for a particular child and make it a bit more manageable I think you're right I think the role of the TA is key in lots of ways I think we can we can see things around the room the teachers maybe obviously have to concentrate on what they're delivering don't say and I think from a relationship point of view which is absolutely fundamental and key in terms of helping and supporting any child that's struggling or any child at all that place of creating a place of safety and I think we need to be just be more flexible in our approach and I think that we need to be able to have time-outs I think we need to be able to have those not only for the students on the SEN register either I think that that's I think it's something that nurturing support I think is something that most students would benefit from in one form or another it may not always be one-to-one it can be small group it can be what sorts of things it doesn't necessarily have to go for the whole year either we can do things for a season we can do things for a term and I think I would like to see space on the timetable for those things to happen and I would like to see staff who have got a desire and a passion for that to be released to be able to do it and where there are natural relationships let's encourage those Tudor time you know in the morning in mainstream school Tudor time can be really important and yet it's amazing to me how much we want to pack into that I've worked in schools where they pack in extra reading extra spellings extra maths extra this extra that okay when do these guys get to just be who they are with each other with the adults because they can do that in the playground but not so much with the adults in the school and I think that's possibly somewhere we could start possibly something we could look at so what would you imagine Tudor time might look like if not doing maths or spelling or catching up on notices or squeezing in PSHG if it's not otherwise time table what would you imagine it looking like in an ideal I think the things that the times that I've seen it work well is schools where I've looked at they take it as a time to just chill together and it would give an opportunity for a teaching assistant working with that class to take one or two of them out go and do something one to one go and do something in a small group and sometimes it's as simple as going to a quiet room and making a hot chocolate and having a biscuit together and just having a chat and it's incredible the things that come out during that time and you begin to understand why why Bob always kicks off on maths lesson three on a Thursday because in the morning on Thursday this always happens in his house or things change or he's been to this parent or he's stayed with grandparents there's all sorts of things that can come out in those conversations I don't think actually we need to create the space I think we just need to acknowledge where the spaces are that we could use already in our timetable so it sounds a little bit like you're saying that rather than kind of cramming full every moment it's about almost allowing a bit of a time to kind of breathe and reflect and just slow the pace down a little bit and just be absolutely how can we do that when there's so many pressures on the school day because I guess presumably some of my spellings maths whatever is being squeezed in there is just because there literally aren't enough hours in the day and particularly like now when so much time has been lost there has been time lost I do agree there has been time lost I just question what's more important I think our learning can be caught up okay if we let's say we all miss a year hmmmm do we fall no if we have our GCSEs a year later then perhaps we would have done normally will the world come to an end no but if we cram everything and make this more pressured already then are we setting ourselves up for even further mental health issues down the road and I think we are if we don't take a breath and use some of those times in the day when we can allow our young people to do that I've been wondering about this quite a bit lately with the kind of you know ongoing situation with the pandemic and how there's just this general feeling of anxiety wherever you go completely understandably it's an objectively difficult time right now but all that we know about kind of co-regulation and our lower arousal approach and supporting you know often I'm thinking about how we support kids on the autistic spectrum in particular by keeping ourselves really calm and regulated and I've been wondering about how that applies in the wider setting at the moment because I feel like everyone you know there's this like kind of bubbling anxiety all the time and yes I've been turning my mind a little bit to thinking about your idea around sort of due to time and maybe those transitions from breaks and lunch and how taking a few minutes there actually just to kind of get a place of calm and collected thought together might mean actually that we get more learning done rather than less I'm not sure what your kind of thought on that is or how that might be working in your current setting better at that often in special schools yeah I think so I think generally the approach for the autistic spectrum student is kind of I think that would be a beneficial benchmark across the board I remember again I worked with a wonderful lady who was she just mentored me so much in the first few years that I worked in education and she kind of took this approach in terms of dyslexia so she would speak to when she delivered training on how to help the dyslexic student in your classroom she would say if you pitch your lesson at the dyslexic students needs you will catch everybody else as well and I actually think it's the same with autistic spectrum and I think if we if we can take all of those approaches that work really really well with our students on the spectrum and apply those across the board especially right now we will see that whole thing begin to ease up and I think we will see engagement in learning we will see engagement in understanding we will see increased thirst for knowledge because there'll be that sense of which your brain's just had a chance to have a rest just let them have five minutes let them collect themselves and then give them space to re-engage and it works and what would that look like in practice so you know what would be the maybe three or four things that are how we modify our practice to support our autistic learners that are actually things you think we could be doing all the time I think the whole the whole swan approach that you talked about in the course that you did I think that it has to be we have to look at those things as being the most important things that we do at the beginning of every day and after lunch I think those things we need to be looking at activities or non-activities that we do that will create that kind of environment you know it's safe it's welcoming it's the sense of being all together it's nurturing and I think that's really really vital if we can do that in those two key times in the day if we can see to our young people in those key times you are important who you are is important not just the fact that we want you to take our data boxes by passing all these tests so that we can look like a really good school that but actually you are important who you are is important I want to be able to listen to you I think the whole art of listening to our students is something that we need to give more time to and listening to what they say but listening to what they don't say you know I was in a minibus full of kids today and it was fascinating I love to just sit there and listen to them talk to each other and fall out with each other and argue with each other and try and patch things up and you say all sorts of things you know the repeated things that they say and it gives you an insight that talking to them never will do listen to them and we need to have those times to listen and I wonder as well if you know education moves a bit more that way where we're really taking that more child centred slightly slower approach that might not be a more appealing prospect actually for people entering the profession because we do have a big issue with burnout and churn and yeah the retention is not good right now massive massive and I also think and then again you know is that a reflection of the state of the mental health of the nation as well you know that you've got people who have studied really hard and wanted to go into teaching and done a year done a couple of years and thought I can't do this I'm out and who can blame them you know the pressure is massive and I think that could be a reflection of some of those things as well and where we've got people cracking right left and centre where we've got children cracking right left and centre where we've got staff cracking right left and centre where we like you say we're having a take up that is lower than I think it's ever been we need to ask these questions why, why why are these things happening and how can we readjust our approach to welcome our students to welcome people like you say in the profession at all levels you know support level teaching level you know so many wonderful people out there would be great assets in school and you know yeah that's it's a really challenging profession to to enter really you know and that's it and I you know take my hat off to people like yourself who work every day in school but it's really tough and I think particularly actually at this particular moment in time so this will go out in a few weeks time but we're recording this on the eve of lockdown 2 in the UK and this will mean that basically no one's going anywhere except schools are still open and so you will still be going to school every day and there are other key workers who are still working as well but I think it's a really important thing to note really is actually that those people who are working in schools are essentially putting themselves at risk in order to support the needs of our children and young people and I think you know there's so much there to be grateful for and that's really important because our children are struggling right now and they need that they get so much from school and I don't know it's a lot to expect really isn't it I think you know if you sign up for a job as a paramedic maybe you expect to put yourself in the face of challenges but maybe when you said you were going to be a teaching assistant you didn't expect to have to make these kind of choices That's so much but I think there are ways around it you know I think we can do this I think there are definitely other approaches again that we could take that would further minimise the risk you know rotations you know students in one week not the next you know distance learning and all that like we're seeing with the universities a lot of them are taking that approach and I think there are a lot of things that we can do to minimise the risk it's just a tricky one isn't it because you're looking at the needs of young and vulnerable people and when I look at our high school students and the rate of infection increasing among high school students in particular I think the challenge there to be as safe as possible in a special school setting that's a little more challenging again because you know there is physical contact is very important you can't you can't avoid it it's not going to happen well for some children their entire curriculum is sensory isn't it depending on what their needs are and yeah that's hard if you can't touch absolutely how are you feeling about it personally a little tone I think on the one hand I especially a lot of young people that I know not just in a school that I'm in but in others as well where like you were saying before school is actually the safe place for them school is the place that regulates their life I think for them it's vital that they have access to to that to the physical building I think that we could easily create safer ways of doing things I think the technology is there for us to do it safer to create safer approaches and I think that we could certainly I love the idea of the rotation system they some of the sixth one colleges in the country have taken that approach in particular and I think that is going to work well I think that could work very very well because then they're in for a patch of time and I also think in terms of if you're doing an online lesson in a virtual classroom then attendance is required just the same as if they're not if they're in a physical classroom and I think there are many things that we can say okay you don't get your mark we can still monitor attendance we can still do those things in a healthy way that's going to affirm who they are as individuals it's still important for you to be here it's still important for us to connect with you and again I still think we could make space for the nurturing discussions within that too what do you think in terms of the next 12 months or so none of us have any idea what's going to happen do we but what do you think would be a mark of success for our children over these coming months how could we tell we've done a good job I think when our children and our young people are happy and confident to be in school and they're happy and confident to to let their guard down a little and trust you and let you in I think at the minute if we can work on alleviating as many anxieties as possible and if we can create an environment where our students feel safe and they feel welcomed and they're nurtured then to me that's success because everything else will follow from that in my opinion that is and it is one of those things you don't think oh my goodness I'm just a teacher assistant for crying out loud and it's a big wrestling thing it's the whole imposter thing thing isn't it I don't think there's any such thing as just a teaching assistant I do take issue with that I do too and I think it's really interesting though because I've had some discussions with a few people who have that view about themselves and I actually wonder you know a lot of it comes I think from that whole circle right back to where we started the whole idea of you never quite get there you have to have the piece of paper you have to have the validation of the robust stamp of the signature on the certificate and really the value of experience is I think it's massive and it's huge and that can be quantified I think you can quantify I think somebody's experience to do something I mean I think certainly one of the things I've been encouraging a lot of colleagues in schools to do at the moment while we're trying to work out how do we create the environment that we need to for our children and their families because lots of families are really struggling there as well and the thing I feel like a bit of a broken record on it really is just look to your support staff because actually within almost every school or college I've ever worked with there is a group of staff who do it every day and it is your bread and butter isn't it and what we really need in this moment in my opinion really is just for everyone to take an approach that's a bit more like what you're doing all the time and that yeah there are really great resources ideas strategies for making this work within every school has that resource we just need to actually stop and talk and treat as the experts right now those staff who perhaps consider themselves at the bottom of the pecking order are leading us through this is there anything we haven't I mean we is very wide ranging to make a top of ours yeah to make a top of ours I could top of ours about this so honestly it really is my thought box but no I think for me I think what I would like to see is a real value of every form of intelligence I would like to say that I looked it up actually what does intelligence mean and according to the Oxford English dictionary it's the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills and it's as simple as that it's not academic it's not physical it's all of those things there's sport and intelligence there's artistic intelligence there's theatrical intelligence there's emotional intelligence you name it it's across the board and I would really like to see I think if we begin in school I think that would disseminate through our society yeah and I think it's about the value isn't it that's placed on those different things because as you said right at the beginning really that often it's academic intelligence that rightly or wrongly is always championed as the most important thing when actually as you say there's so many different different kind of parts to it it's something that's been a really hot topic of conversation in my household recently actually is my daughter Lyra is just in the background while we're recording this and Lyra has just applied for an art scholarship at her school she decided not to go for an academic scholarship although she'd been very capable of doing that but she's taken up art during lockdown and been really brilliantly supported virtually by my friend Terry together a really lovely portfolio and for us as a family and you know thinking with Lyra about this it was so important I think because my husband and I are both very academic but what that meant for us when we were at school was actually that some of those other things didn't happen we weren't developed as sports people or artists so you know we didn't try like a range of different things because we were clever and yeah those other things weren't necessarily valued in the same way maybe they were by our school but we didn't perceive that and so actually for us having a daughter who went art really matters to me and I want to try for this regardless of whether she gets it or not I love that her school has that as a potential route and that yeah she wanted to try Love that, that makes me very happy I love that Yeah and I think that's one of the interesting things about the whole sort of pandemic isn't it, is that it's really easy to kind of and particularly as we enter another lockdown and it's winter now and everything feels kind of bleak that can be quite hard but there are some really brilliant things that have come out of it and certainly within our family it has been you know Laira's discovered this amazing love of art and my children have spent more time together so the two girls have got a lot closer and you know there are positives aren't there I think they're really good things Lords are positives Lords are positives, yeah What thought would you like to close with, I know you thought about this ahead, did you homework? I do, I have a part in thought, it's actually it's a favourite quarter of mine and it just, I've got no idea who said it, there is nobody accredited with this in however it is I'm going to read it because otherwise I'll get it wrong it's impossible said pride it's risky said experience it's pointless said reason give it a try whispered the heart and that for me is if we can give it a go if we can give it a go let's let's not say it can't be done let's try, let's just try make a difference