 2002 and so in a lot of ways this has kind of become you know sort of a regular and fairly important part of my calendar of a year and in fact it's far from the first time that my birthday has overlapped in fact a year that I will probably never forget in 2003 for lots of reasons in Perth we actually had the banquet and the keynote that I gave was on my birthday so LCA and my birthday all get tangled up and thank you very much for recognizing that this morning before we jump in to the Q&A though this week as I've talked to people I've realized that there are a couple of you know loops that I should try to close first of all for those of you who were at LCA last year how many of you sat in on the talk that I gave or have watched the video since I'm really pleased to report that a year makes a heck of a difference we're able to move into the new house built on our property at the end of September and the dust is literally starting to settle as is snow it's that time of year in Colorado also earlier this week my good friend Evan Moglen was asked about the status of freedom box and had this to say I'm pleased to report that trading a little sleep for other things last night I can tell you and to just be abundantly clear about this the only contribution I've made to the freedom box o.3 release other than talking about it this morning is one package uploaded to Debian a couple of days ago since I arrived at LCA there folks like Sunil Mohan and Nick Daly and Peta Reinholzen who've been carrying the torch over the last year or so and I'm really appreciative of that you know go take a look at this there's still lots of things to do if this is a project that you're interested in would like to help with I'm sure they still love to have your help so enough about those sorts of things and me and all of that well maybe not quite this is not the first time that I have shared the stage at LCA with these folks given the little you know ticket selling thing this morning if my beard is worth on the order of $40,000 Australian a 3d printer's got to be worth something more than that but in fact if we go all the way back to 2003 part of the reason that year is so significant to me is that at that LCA Linus and Tridge and I were asked to do something that hadn't been done until then at an LCA which was to just take questions from the audience for a while and I have said to the organizer several times since that's one of my personal favorite sessions at an LCA ever and part of the reason for that is that I actually like taking questions from people and I like having some sense of what other people want to hear about as opposed to just standing and talking for a really long time the other part was I think that was actually the first time that Linus and I or Tridge and I or indeed the three of us all together had actually shared a stage and that has sort of set the stage if you will for lots of things that have happened since of course there's some people who just couldn't leave well enough alone and I think within two questions yes that's my cue there so I was reviewing the audio from 2003 which how many of you here were at the 2003 Q&A are fantastic great so can anyone remember you know who interjected in the first two questions rusty right so the first two he interjected and then we realized that it was inevitable and we called him down to the front to join the panel and we thought we might as well just short-circuit that now because thank you Rusty you noticed we already set up the fourth chair ready for you so the other thing we had at the 2003 event was we had chopper chops and so there will be again chopper chop rewards for questions so if you want to chop a chop you have to ask a question and that also happened in 2003 although it was Linus that tried to grab one at the beginning and we told him that he had to earn it first so you'll get one at the end latest right so shall we start off then any more photos Peter no that was all for the photos but we also have an audio recording of the session from 2003 Tridge I think you thought there are a couple of questions from that that might be worth revisiting yes indeed so we had a few questions so how many of you actually listened to the link that I sent out to the chat list the audio right so there was a few pertinent questions I think that deserve an update and answer from you know 12 years later to see how it's going so the first question that was asked was when is 2.6 going to be released so do you remember when 2.6 was released I have no idea this is why I have source control these days so and there was a follow-up question which you know is 2.5 ready for users to try yet and I think we need an update on that do you think 2.5 is ready for users that was such a huge disaster that we changed the whole development model so I think that's a no that's a no right okay so there was a couple of other questions that I thought were worth worth revisiting one was about trusted computing and signed code and so remember the audience asked about what Lena's thought about trusted computing and signed code and so just just to give what you answered at the time you said that you're asked a vendor if there is an actual use case for a signed kernel and the answer was no and you thought it was just marketing so would you like to update that answer so these days will be to do it even without vendors asking for it we use it internally and I use it internally for example for signing all my modules and I think it's a great use especially the way I do it which is to generate random keys that you throw away after you've generated the modules which means that nobody can ever try to insert anything in your kernel so it's a great security measure it can obviously and I think that's something I've said for a long time although I have no idea what I said 12 years ago is that a lot of these security measures that are vilified in this community are actually can be very useful and sometimes they have really good reasons for being used even if some people tend to hate them intensely but but things have clearly changed we we do use it ourselves and I use it personally all the time so the final question I think is worth reprising from the 2003 event was about IPv6 and at the time if you recall your answer was that IPv4 is good enough for most people because you don't want to give you a shoe and IP address and so you also said that IPv6 is a decade away now 12 years later it's probably less than a decade away and most people here probably use it on your cell phones I don't actually know how the New Zealand telcos work it turns out I mean IPv4 clearly is still majorly useful and and while IPv6 now works I give it at least a decade before IPv4 is actually gone if ever we'll see it's I always thought that IPv6 was way over designed and it made it more complicated and more painful that it needed to be and private networks and things like that means that not everybody needs to use a public IP address anyway and a lot of people do for no good reason so your shoes if they do want an IP address maybe they could use one of your private network IP addresses and you can still use your shoes with IPv4 so I think they're the key relevant questions from 2003 so you may have noticed I sent out an email to the chat list yesterday asking for people to think up good questions for today's session and so how many people have got questions for today's session a few people right so I'd like you to come down and stand in front of the microphone down here to ask the question and if there's any applause at all you know at the end of answering your question you get a chopper chop so first person come please come down to the front and ask a question yeah so sort of come down the go round the back or up the front if you want to just and queue up in front of the microphone here morning so Linus nice easy question to start with over the years various people including myself have either reduced their involvement in the current community or steps away from its entirely due to the tone on LKML and especially your contribution to that why do you continue to argue that being really unpleasant to people's good leadership strategy part of it that's not actually my real argument my real argument is that people are different and I'm a really unpleasant person and that's what it really boils down to is that and some people think I'm nice and and some people are then shocked when they learn different and I'm not a nice person and I don't care about you really I care about I care about the technology and I care about the kernel and I really think that a lot of projects in the open-source community sometimes care about non-technical things too much and and the reason I say that is that the only thing we can actually agree on ever tend to be technical issues and if we start making a big deal about non- technical issues that are important don't get me wrong I'm not saying they're not important I'm saying that whenever we start making non- technical issues the primary issues that just guarantees will never agree right and I'm not trying to really make excuses I'm more trying to explain that this is where I come from and and I appreciate the diversity in open source but to me that diversity is not about gender it's not about skin color it's about people are different and people are different in what they are interested in people are different in what they're good at skin coloring gender and all these issues that get brought up as really important things those are details what is great about open source is that some people are unpleasant but they're technically really good right some people are pleasant and like bringing other people in and and I think that's one of maybe the most important part about open source is that you can do what you're good at so when you look at bringing in minorities bringing in females bringing in people who don't speak English my argument has been and is that we should look for people who are good at being the people who can be between other people right there are lots of good kernel developers who are great at working with people and they may not even be great technically and that doesn't matter because we all have strengths right and this is my argument and I refuse to change well that sounds bad it's not that I refuse to change it's that I don't think I want to try to bow down to what other people think my personal personality is pretty abrasive I love arguing but bearing at the Museum of Technology I was I spent the whole time just arguing with people right I mean and if you're that kind of personality when you are on LKML you will argue and I know there are other kernel developers that are like me and I know there are other kernel developers who not like me and that's all wonderful and that was a really long answer to a really simple question but the fact is that's how I feel and please introduce yourself at the start thank you good morning my name is Tommy Richards and Matthew you kind of stole my question well maybe I can I don't work in kernel development I'm not subscribed to the Linux kernel mailing list that I am in the community and I've noticed a worrying trend which is that over the last year there's been more hate there's been more abuse more vitriol in IOC and mailing lists on Google plus and speaking as a professional this really concerns me because I love my job I want to love it in 20 years time but if this trend continues I will not be in the industry in 20 years time so I'd like to know then this is already answered but maybe the other three of you could maybe tell us you all have a lot of influence in this room and in the wider community do you have any plans to try and improve the community for the I think we have other people who want to answer that I'll keep this quick I think basically what you're saying is not actually true I think the tone on LKML I don't know about IRC maybe people in IRC other masters and really it's nasty LKML I think has been getting better what has happened is that there's a lot of system day there's a there's a lot more talk and it's become a thing that is a newsworthy so I actually think LKML has in many ways calmed down and then people try to make a big deal out of it and and make news out of behavior that is not different but does it mean so you know Rusty mentioned system day those of you who have been paying attention will realize that I don't know my life and that of Keith and various other folks who are here got really tangled up in this whole and it's just a debate and it really came to a head in the Debian community in the last year in case you hadn't noticed the interesting thing about that community is that yes we ended up in a situation where we had a question that was partially technical and partially not so technical and emotions ended up running immensely hot particularly for some of the core participants in that debate slash discussion process and you know emotions got hot to the borderline nuclear level for a little while and it was immensely uncomfortable as you know one of the folks on the wrong end of some of the vitriol around that uncomfortable I'm being polite because you are sort of all my extended family here and I won't say things to you that I might say to other folks but the really intriguing thing is all of that vitriol represents what I have described before is the vocal minority and we do have a problem in the entire free software world where sometimes we are too willing to let the vocal minority represent us and to sort of set the tone or the agenda for some of the discussions I'm here to tell you that in the Debian community in particular the community is strong the community is healthy the community is recovering brilliantly from that whole ruckus around the init system today work is progressing the next stable release it's coming along pretty much on schedule you got a little extra time to help us chase down the remaining set of release critical bugs and at the end of the day part of what I think me and us might be trying to sort of get at around the edge a little bit is it's okay for us to have times where we all let our passions overflow and get in trouble with each other on sort of personal interaction and communication spaces as long as at the end of the day we somehow figure out how to make things right with all the folks that matter in the communities that we're working in and I really hope that if nothing else all of us here today can go forward into 2015 conscious of the fact that a lot of what we read and a lot of what gets amplified in the press and on blog posts and all of that sort of stuff is the opinion of the vocal minority and many of us would like to be in the silent majority are still just fine everything's good we're going to do it we can to support the friends and diverse friends around us and let's not get so distracted by all of this if we can help it that's the thing that would help me to feel better about some of the stuff we've had to deal with over the last while and I have to agree with Linus I think we have to be very very careful not to assume that the amount of noise we see in the press and elsewhere is truly indicative of what it's like to be part of most of the open source development communities that we know of yeah so as someone completely outside the system did debate I haven't seen any escalation in verbal but you know the trend has been pretty much downhill I think for the last at least five years right and by downhill he means better better yes I think we ought to give a shout out there been there been important folks in our community who've been doing really great things because it's what they're good at to try and help improve our openness to diversity candidates I'm really pleased by the diversity sponsorship at this and other recent LCAs and the fact that that's brought some interesting people into the LCA community a shout out to Karen Sandler and the other folks involved in the outreach program for women that has generated some really interesting new folks in the community who've done really useful technical work and are getting jobs on the basis of that and all those sorts of things we've seen the same thing you know we've seen a number of projects making concrete efforts to try and increase their openness to contributions from different and diverse folks it's not that there isn't a problem out there somewhere I think we just have to be careful about focusing on what the problem actually is and recognize and reward when things move in the right direction instead of spending so much time pointing fingers when somebody gets a motion next question so is it the year of the next stop it I should interject that we did have that question in 2003 and rusty you actually answered that and your answer was that by the end of 2004 it would be 50% Linux desktop in the world so how's that worked out for you rusty you know it's still so difficult to measure it's probably 50% of my desktops you are running extrapolating that it's all good and in in somebody letting's desktop on your desktop or excellent and on smart phones we are 80% okay something slightly different from the previous ones those of us have a certain age gone to computing mostly I think from the old AP computers and I remember like there were picture books for kids that taught advanced basic and even machine language now that the world's a different place now and there doesn't be anything like that some people are trying like you know Raspberry Pi anything but I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on getting the younger generations into our community because it's all about learning software literacy and understanding how our computers work and it doesn't seem to be there's much encouragement for the younger ones to join our community and basically fill the ranks as we sort of age so by younger ones you mean under 30 I wish I had the answer to that because I got three kids and none of them seem to be interested in technology except as users well that's not true but at least in computers in the sense I'm interested in computers and I think part of the problem is there's the technology of today is so complicated that for somebody like me who is interested in kernels it used to be easy to get in at at the hardware level and that's simply not true in computers anymore and the world has moved on and we're old farts for a reason that said it's much easier to get involved in many other ways maybe you're not into computers and you were into the whole 3d printing thing and maybe you're into doing these user application things and they're way easier to do than they used to be so I I don't have an answer I at the same time I don't really worry it's not the same thing anymore there's no point in teaching everybody machine language or basic or something like that I I'm looking at most young people tend to be pretty tech savvy right so I wouldn't really worry they may not be kernel tech savvy but we don't need everybody to do that yeah I think there's also this immense trend that we've been aware of in effect there've been some talks around edges of this here at this conference and that's towards accessibility of microcontroller platforms and other places where kids are really enthusiastic because they see a direct connection between little bits of programming and action that affects the real world I discovered a really long time ago well before I had kids of my own and it's something that I've enjoyed playing with them with that you know on some level computers are kind of boring I mean there's all sorts of things you can do with them and my kids are certainly far more literate and quick to go you know grab a computer to do something than even I am sometimes but there's this immense sort of feedback loop thing that works well if you even get to the point where they're turning an LED on or off or getting a servo to move or so my strong suggestion if you've got kids or you're trying to figure out how to get younger people enthusiastic is look for places where there's an intersection between simple computing devices and real world effects and feedback loops and you know if they figure out how to write a little bit of code and an Arduino thing or something then they might end up thinking trying to do kernel development is interesting someday I'm not sure whether would but hi I'm Simon my question is where do you see system D being in the next five years is it just a new is it just a new you dev or maybe dev is I don't know why the system big question comes up because I don't even care I am a system be user and I have not been involved in any of those arguments at all that I know apart from not liking one particular person and I'm pretty sure be Dale doesn't want to take that question so I use system D most of you probably do use system D it's all good I didn't care either until yesterday apparently they've got masquerading support and I looked at the code that the patch that actually put that in they don't fork out to IP tables because that would be so they use it directly and actually the code fairly sane so you know as long as the code is pretty good it's I don't really understand so just to be clear the real reason I don't want to take that question is I don't try to predict five years in the future about much of anything and you know the events in my life in the last couple of years have made it clear that trying to predict too far into the future is you know that way lies madness part of the reason that I ended up taking the decision that I made in the whole Debbie and system D thing is that it seemed to be the place where there was the most enthusiasm activity and good stuff being worked on for the future and one of the reasons that we worked hard to constrain the actual decision that we made in the Debbie and project to the next stable release cycle is we have no idea what will be the hot shiny right thing to be using another release cycle later my anticipation is that people continue to poke at it and do good things and and hopefully it ends up being you know code that we're all okay with okay my question is for Linus when you do like the current version control use road kit and you didn't like your doubt you don't find a good dive lock so you wrote your own dive lock what are you working on now that is not on the kernel are you hacking on something nice I'm not honestly I'm a lazy person which is why I like open source I get all these people to do all my job I don't really want to have other projects what I want to do is just sit sit on a beach and sip a foofy drink and just let you guys do the work and the fact that then occasionally I've had to say okay in order to be lazy for the next five years I have to do something that's why right now the thing I've always cared about has been the kernel and right now knock wood or something the kernel development process seems to be working really well and we don't have any huge looming concerns and I hope I'm not wrong about that so so we seem to have found a model that is working is getting us where we want to go and and we're I'm coasting well right now I'm coasting then the merge window comes along and it gets crazy for a few weeks again but so I don't have any projects I'm working on I'm hope to next week work on my dive log thing that I started but I gave away but that's even that hope is more like I hope things work so well that I don't need to thank you we've had a heretical question here I was just reading it the day about this new machine the machine that will have maybe petabytes of memristor so you don't have files because everything permanent and memory the same thing therefore Linux can't handle it you need a much better offering system that doesn't deal with files but there's many structures I wonder what you have to say about that Linus call me one so well known member of our communities just rejoined HP in order to work on the Linux port to the machine the one thing that might be worth I mean if Keith wants to come up and speak but I don't think he does one thing that might be worth mentioning is even when you have persistent memory and you can imagine a world where everything is in RAM and it never goes away that won't necessarily really change things as much as some people say because you will still want to have a file system just to organize this thing persistence also means that I mean one of the advantage of RAM and it goes away is that you do something and then you throw it away and that means you don't have to manage it as much because it the fact that it's ephemeral means that it's also something you don't need to care about long-term if you have persistent from or RAM memristors or any other kind of model you will still need to have a file system just to have a way to organize these things that stay around for years and years so it won't change that it will change the details in the file system when you have bite address ability you can do things that you can't do with disks but we already see that with SSDs that just the performance differences mean that you do different things in file systems than you used to do 20 years ago or 50 years ago so in some level one of the things I would suggest is that what's really interesting about the machine is that the intersection of a couple of parallel long-term technology development trends that are going to hit the market at about the same time are going to give us the opportunity sort of all at once to throw more existing assumptions up in the air possibly back them completely out the window then normally happens when we're watching sort of the steady evolution of technologies this is absolutely right the introduction of SSDs change the way we think about performance in a storage subsystem right I mean you know gone are the days when you know elevator algorithms for managing you know block transfer sequencing were fundamental to being able to get any kind of useful performance out of a storage says the needs the concerns the pinch points just moved it'll be different but it won't be it's not like the whole world magically got simpler suspended resumes going to be really fast there's been so many technical questions I want to ask a meta question instead so you can be purely opinionist given that Australia New Zealand technically share the same airspace do you think that they should come together and form a combined space agency given that we're the only G20 nation without one yeah I mean we technically all share the same airspace and it's expensive and I think we all need to get together to really go into space I'm really the wrong person to ask all the people in this room I'm probably pretty low down on the list to really answer that question right so we already had a question about the machine and Linux++ and things like that do you think there'll be any innovation in hardware in the next few years whether Linux kernel possibly couldn't make the transition very quickly and what do you think the implications would be for all of us more of our work as a whole if Linux loses the dominance it's achieved over the past decades I wouldn't lose sleepover yeah and I really don't lose sleepover in fact I think in the computer industry in general the big question is not what happens to software in the next few years but what happens to hardware and when scaling stops and it's not happening in a few years but it's happening in 10 and it's getting much more gradual and maybe somebody will come up with something really radically new and there are people who argue that hey we've been saying that scaling will stop for the last 50 years and it hasn't stopped for the last 50 years it will stop people who believe in quantum computers are before after the year is it going to stop before or after the year the Linux desktop I really think what happened is the Linux desktop scaled down and now we have it in our pockets so in that but but we're really at the point where in ten years five nanometers that's not a lot of atoms and the whole computer industry I mean software to don't get me wrong but the whole computer industry has for a long time lived on the notion that the computer five years from now will be fundamentally different and faster what happens when that's not true on a chip level anymore you can still improve right you can do clever things and you can improve but it's not going to be the same kind of improvement and we've seen some of it already but it's going to get much worse and that will impact software too but I think it will impact the hardware people much much more and that's going to be interesting in 10 to 15 years what happens I might mention there was a similar question actually in 2003 to that which I think I was worth mentioning at this point there was a question about somebody in the audience said that in that 20 years before so 1983 they had a computer on their desk that could write letters to their mum and print and now you know 20 years later 2003 they had a computer on the desk that could write letters to their mum and print you know what's changed that 20 years now the answer at the time from beta actually was that it's got slower that's what's changed but I asked a couple of people about that before this and they said well what's changed in the last you know 12 years and the answer for several people was it's got faster again it was two or three weeks ago there was this big surprise that it turned out that many current developers don't know how memory allocation works I think LW.net wrote too small to fail that problem so I thought to myself then well 10 15 years ago the answer to that problem would probably be to have RDFM the question today I would ask which fine manual we should have read do you think that documentation of the kernel is appropriate do you have any idea how to improve that well I clearly have no idea how to improve documentation the kernel this is where others sometimes step up and do a great job of explaining small details at the same time there was a talk yesterday about how programming should be provably correct and it's it would be a great thing if we could prove correctness and that we all suck at it and and I don't take that approach I'm more of a touchy-feely guy I actually I believe in biological processes and I believe in evolution and I believe in all these making mistakes and trying and we don't have documentation for how humans work but humans work really really well except when they break down and I actually think we're at the stage and we have been at the stage in kernel development and in a lot of technology where nobody really understands everything that's going on the VM is complicated deal with it and just realize that the answer to that is not to make the VM simpler because the VM is complicated for a reason it's doing all these crazy things and a lot of them are heuristics they don't have hard reasons for it there often is no this is what you need to do this is the correct answer a lot of the time it's like we want to go in roughly that direction and we don't even know how to get there but if we do this most of the time it works that's how a lot of real problems in real life are and that is hard to document when there is no real answer and we should continue to document the big rules we should continue to document the details like how memory ordering works which was another subject that came up yesterday but that still will never be in the situation where we can give a spec for the kernel and I don't think we should even try we should we should just realize that okay life is complex and we do the best we can and we need to have smart people but we also need to have a lot of people who test a lot of people who are willing to accept that I don't know what the solution is but I know what is better than what we do today in this area and if you continue to do that this is how biological systems work and it's a provably working process it doesn't get you to the perfect end result but it gets you to something that works better than anything else we've ever seen so when I wrote netfilter the first time I actually wrote a hacking how-to that had always details on how it all worked and how you could extend it and everything else and the first time I received a major patch I was really excited the patch was great and I said what did you think of the hacking how-to and of course he said what how to and so the lack of documentation does provide a filter for contributions it's terrible but it's true because they have to read the code anyway because the documentation will lie so why not skip the first point and make them read the code immediately because they'll have to deal with it so in practice I found that effort put into documentation in the kernel was not paid back I actually disagree I mean we have areas where we document small details like locking rules and and these kinds of very specific and very targeted areas we do need to have documentation because they are they are things that people can't keep in mind and they're kind of big enough picture that you can't look at one piece of code and see what you should do so we do need documentation but I think the argument is documentation is not a panacea it doesn't solve everything it it's not always the answer I I notice Tringe has not been answering a lot of questions you've been doing a lot of moderating and throwing out chup-a-chup so I'll crack out an old chestnut that everyone can can answer current desktops you know two three KDE Emax what do we run yeah all right okay that's checked from time to time and changes from time to time okay you don't want to start so you know this isn't my badge you know Emax get I run Ubuntu trustee and I've switched between a number of different you know window managers but actually you know a lot of my work is on embedded systems these days so most of the time my desktop is actually GNU screen and running GNU screen on a system that often the systems are on another continent and so really the closest thing to a desktop I have at the moment is GNU screen WN stable XFC e4 and a lot of terminal windows I'm on Fedora 21 right now I'm actually known for being a GNOME hater I don't like some of the development models they have but I am a GNOME 3 user with a couple of extensions to fix what I thought were big failures and I don't believe in Emax or VI so I use this one editor that nobody is saying would ever use but it's what I grew up with so I just fixed that a bug where it would crash if you had a big screen and more than 128 lines on the screen that's the kind of crap I run I run stock Ubuntu on my desktop but my build machine is arch and and the only way to manage that has is when I SSH in SSH-X otherwise it's all text I'm Dave Lane just have a question this probably applies to all of you but I guess primarily for Linus in this case do you all see yourselves being at some point in your leadership roles usurped by a computer and if so what kernel will it be running are you in your leadership role going to have that role you served by a computer and if so which kernel will it be running I don't know will it be heard yeah I think my mind will be going before that happens but the argument there is when that happens and I don't know I think there is actually a partly serious answer one gift that that question and it harks back a little bit to some of the social interactions something I've noticed in recent times is processes for doing software development are becoming more mechanized and so the so often these days you know you're on you know github or you know get orious or whatever and it's like a pull request and it's just a patch and you respond there there's less social interaction you might as well be you know talking to a computer because it is getting more and more mechanized that process and I think that feeds into you know I've never seen any you know really heated discussions in a pull request chat and so it is sort of moving to be a more mechanized process and you know being more computerized in a way so if I end up being replaced by a computer I don't actually sort of care on some level as long as it's running free software yeah hey my name's Laura Bell it's actually my first time at LCA security specialist while security bugs have always historically been found in Linux and open source products in the last 12 months the way they have reached the world through mainstream media has changed dramatically and you know our bash bugs of the last 12 months have kind of changed the way most people who don't think about security interact what are your predictions for security in the open source Linux space for the next 12 months and which areas of code if you were going to go and look at one right now for vulnerability research which would you start with Bitcoin if you knew which piece of code to look at for security issues we wouldn't have security issues it's going to be something very obscure and stupid and it's going to be obvious in hindsight and people will say how did we ever miss that and that's what it's always going to be the security is just the hard problem well I think you're absolutely right and this falls into another one of those I'm certainly not going to try and be very predictive categories I'm really pleased that at least part of the response to this sort of escalation or change in the way things are being reported and talked about over the last year so is that there are some activities attempting to sort of shine more light on put more resources on some of the core elements of technology that we all depend on I'm referring of course to things like the Linux Foundation core infrastructure initiative and so on I don't actually immediately know sort of how that's going but the idea that we're at least trying to figure out how to get more eyeballs on some of the things that we all agree are some of the most important elements of code in our infrastructure and that we found the corporate members of our extended community willing to empty up to help make that happen is is pretty cool and I hope that's a good stuff there's another thing that's been going on which I find personally very satisfying which is that people are less willing sometimes to kind of brush the problem under the mat and leave it up to vendors and have disclosure like infinitely long disclosure times I'm a huge believer in in just disclosing still somewhat responsibly but security problems need to be made public and there are people who argue and have argued for decades that you never want to talk about security problems because that only helps the black hats and the fact is that I think you absolutely need to report them and you need to report them in a reasonable time frame or reasonable for the carnal security list is admittedly five working days which some people think is a bit extreme and and in other projects it might be a month or a couple of months but that's still much better than the years and years of silence which we used to have so I'm gonna get the last question which is a real privilege as one of the organizing team as of now as of today and perhaps looking forward a little bit what do you feel is your biggest legacy to the open source movement that posting about the first release of Linux or the momentum that caused you to release get or something else me personally I actually think one of the things that I Linux has been really good at and I'm and this is going to raise that few hackles right I I like open source and I like this whole working together with commercial companies and this whole notion that you don't need to vilify people who also do closed source so for me personally one of the big things I'm happy about is that I was part of the group I mean and Linux was a big example for the group who who tried to take and now this is one tridge will stand up and give the other answer who tried to take this very you or us against the world approach of free software and made it more open not just in name but also in being acceptable to people who don't necessarily believe in our values but believe that our model is better and and that's to me something that that Linux was really instrumental in at the same time I'm really happy about get to because I think get has spread more than than the kernel in some respects and and maybe I'll be remembered more for gift and Linux we'll see if I would answer that on his behalf I think that the thing I think the long lens of history might find the most important is how both of those projects have positively impacted this notion that all of us as human kind working together collaboratively leads to better results than when we're all sort of hiding in separate corners and fighting and competing so we need to wrap up there but it's been a fantastic session and do you think that our panel has earned a chopper chopper