 Alright, hello Julie thanks so much for joining me how are you doing today. I'm fine Chris and what a pleasure it is to finally get to meet you. Yeah, absolutely so funny story for people who you know don't know but anyways, I just randomly stumbled across your work like a few weeks ago so you had a book coming out like hey, I want to read that book and we connected and you sent me an early copy and everything like that. So, your book is feminism for women. You have been doing this and writing and talking about this for years now. So this isn't you know the first thing you've written so what, what kind of inspired this particular book and for those who have yet to read it what's, what's the main focus. It's feminism for women because in the past decade or so we've increasingly been moving towards what passes for feminism as something that tends to benefit privileged so called progressive men. And it's kind of, we're in an Orwellian situation I know that that term is overused. It's appropriate right now that everything that's actually bad for women has been repackaged and sold back to us as empowering and choice and free choice and liberating. But so you can take examples such as the sex trade, the global sex trade that is a cause and a consequence of women's oppression that that that focuses its energy on the abuse of marginalized women and girls such as care leavers, indigenous and native women, women of color, black women, women who have been sexually groomed and exploited into feeling like they're worthless, prayed upon by by men for profit, and one sided sexual pleasure, and all of a sudden, it's repackaged as sex work. And it's it's twin sister stripping and lap dancing is something that's really great for exercise I mean actually I was watching a film recently, where one of the main characters that there were two guys talking about whether or not the sex wars were still raging And one of the characters said and I'm sure your listeners can work out which one it is by a quick Google. Listen, you know, we've won the sex wars men have won the sex wars, we won as soon as women started pole dancing for exercise. Yeah. So, you know, I think it was Ryan Gosling. Anyway, the point is that things such as even religious fundamentalism. So women who are Muslim born, who are now secularists who campaign against sharia law campaign against the abuse, and women who started out to women and girls who live in all fundamentalist religious communities, you know, have found that for some liberal white men on the left. They seem to be apologists for Islamic fundamentalism all of a sudden, because of course our enemies are our friends. And women are the collateral damage women are the cannon fodder. And so a long answer to your short question. I wanted to write this book because at the moment, feminism seems to have forgotten that it should be centering women and girls globally, and not actually be prioritizing everything but the struggle for emancipation and liberation of women and girls. So, so let me ask you that so you know the subtitle of the book is the real route to liberation so when you when you talk about liberation of women like what does that look like to you. Well feminism is an extremely optimistic movement. We have to be because it's we've got a big job at our hands, you know we have to convince half of the planet to relinquish their power and to treat us as equals. But we're also optimistic because we know fine well that baby boys are not born programmed to harm or abuse and oppress us and nor are baby girls born to be victims and to be subservient. So therefore, there are many men who are raised well with, you know, good parents and role models and peers that don't encourage them to take out their shit on women or to sexually exploit us and also to encourage men to actually get in touch with their feelings because it's not just the angry ones but the, you know, the whole gamut. And so we know that there are, there are so many good men but there's also a sizable, and I mean sizable minority of those that do harm and abuse women directly. And I'm afraid a majority that are bystanders that stand around thinking well it's not my problem well it is your problem then it is and that's why I work with men all over the world who are doing anti sexist. So, so what I suppose the book means what I mean by liberation is that the one thing that unites women and girls everywhere. And I would argue it's the only thing that unites women and girls everywhere is the fear and reality of male violence. Look, I mean, not every woman has been raped but every woman has feared being raped and every woman cattails her freedom to an extent, so that she isn't raped and every woman worries about if she is raped, will she be blamed for it will she be believed. Might it happen again. All of that. So liberation has to be an end to male violence. Without that, if you see women in Norway and other Scandinavian countries for example, or women at the top of the tree earning a million dollars on a really good salary, but complaining that she earns 10% less than her male counterpart. Usually you know white US women who talk about the glass ceiling and do what we call lean in feminism that is more concerned with the need to see the 5% elite or whatever. So if we if we think about what those women have in common, there really isn't anything else except for the curtailment of our freedoms and citizenship, the effect on our mental and physical health of male violence. And if you actually say to women, women who are for example, street cleaners in Mumbai, or the woman that we've just described in the merchant bank who's earning a fortune. She will have a similar experience, psychically, I suppose, to her sister in a very different kind of setting. And so what I want the book to do is to forge solidarity between women in order that we can meet together to fight male violence, because there is a need to do so. We have to pretend that we're all the same, but we have to have an end vision of a world without rape without prostitution without child sexual abuse without pornography, without the everyday harassment of women that is so commonplace and we have to imagine that world, or what the hell are we fighting for. Yeah, no very well put and and yeah I love the book and you cover so many different topics and, and in a little bit I do want to talk about the sex work thing because I don't even know if I mentioned this to you. But I live in Las Vegas, Nevada. Right. So I've grown up here so I have some questions that I know a lot of people, and actually since reading your book, I've talked with a lot of people who I know here in Vegas. And, and even though they work in the industry in the industry their responsive, their responses have been very interesting but we'll touch on that in a minute like a lot of the book is talking about like like you mentioned the, the like unifying around this this issue with like male violence. So, first thing, I'll say this publicly on my podcast. One of the one of the weird parts about being a guy and having these conversations is like with what I'm about to say like there's this weird judgment from other guys like oh you're just, you're being this or whatever but anyways. So I grew up, you know, like, like all men I have a mother right so like I've grown up in a family, you know, like of, you know, feminist and everything like my mom like she worked her ass off she got a PhD. She overcome alcoholism she helped me overcome it like my mom is a badass right, but you know, you know, many of my friends have been women and it wasn't until probably my early 20s where I realized that like, I wish I was exaggerating like 90% of the women I know, have been a victim of some sort of sexual violence right and that's not even including physical violence of just like domestic abuse and things like that. And I sat there as I, you know, when I when I heard it from a few of my female friends, then I started asking more, and I was literally like, What the fuck is going on. Like, I didn't know and then something that makes me feel like an ass is there's that saying like, you know, this many women have been victims of you know rape or sexual assault, but no men know some another man who has, you know, perpetrated what's going on like, you know, based on just like numbers, I must know somebody but you know so anyways, one of the reasons you know I really wanted to talk with you is because there is a lot of talk about like, you know, men and like how I ship and what men can do and all that and, you know, I've actually listened to some of your interviews like I listened to your interview with Andrew Doyle recently and stuff. So, before I get to myself, one of the main reasons I've been reading so many books on feminism, and all the different views and everything is because I'm the father of a 12 year old son. My son, he's great, he's sweet. He's nice. I'm blown away at how many people compliment how good he is but I want to make sure he stays on that path. So, my long way of asking you, like when it comes to male ally ship or whatever like, as a father to this young boy like, because like you said they're not born this way. What are what are some things that as fathers, teaching our sons that we can do to help. You know what I mean. I'm really glad that you've asked me this question, Chris, because often men you're doing the opposite of this. Often men will get sentimental and say I have a daughter. And I don't want her to go through this and I want to say to them, okay, two things. First of all, why didn't you give a fuck before you have the daughter right. Why is it only how many women have you fucked over before you have this daughter so think about that. And I do believe in redemption so let's get that out of the way. But think about that. And why is it just because it's your property that you are now concerned about it. What you're saying is that actually the hard work of raising boys needs to be really. It needs to be a political act. It needs to be something that isn't just done on your own for father to son, but to actually look around your, your son's world and see how much peer pressure there is on him. So how much commercial crap he gets thrown at himself all the time, if he has a cell phone, or just, you know, the movies and stuff that's hitting him over the head all the time, you know, by this you need this use that world is safer when it's virtual and that can lead him down the rabbit hole to pornographic images and stuff. And so I think that boys need to really have the opportunity to hang out with other boys that aren't being bullied into dick pics to girls that aren't being pressured to download that porn that actually can develop into whole human beings without feeling shy or worried about asking about sex. That we think about how sex education should be positive. And we should be telling our boys and girls that sex is, if you choose to have sex in a consensual safe setting. It's great. Right. It's because we love sex that we hate pornography, that we think that the sex trade is built on the, you know, in humanity of its victims, that men become schooled into almost sociopathy by being trained into a kind of one sided sexual contact scenario where it doesn't matter that this person that you're having sex with for your own pleasure doesn't respond or doesn't want to be there. And so I think, to be honest, especially for 12 year old boys, I think it all pretty much comes down to sex education and to positive roles with not just role models who are adults because we know we probably remember being 12 we didn't want adults telling us what to do. We needed other 12 year olds around us and clearly that includes girls, girls who've been raised by strong parents, by pro feminist men and seek out these positive friendships for the kids and not just looking at it as the whole weight of this is on your shoulder because there must be so many other parents that are worried about their kids. Yeah, no, and absolutely at that point you made about daughters like I think back when when my my son's mom and we were still together and she got pregnant like I was like oh my god if I have this daughter you know but I started thinking about these things but so I would love your your opinion on this like I recently talked with another author named Melinda Winnemoyer and she has a book called how to raise kids who aren't assholes. It's a great book, but anyways, so here's what I want your opinion. So I, I want to instill certain values in my son, right, and, and it's like, you know, be kind, be respectful, you know, ask, you know, ask permission and things like that right, like consent, all across the board, like when he was five don't take somebody's toys and like, I want all of these like respectful just my here's the parenting philosophy I've always had I don't care how my son turns out, I don't care if he has you know if he's gay or has a different political ideology that I do or anything else, as long as he's not an asshole, I don't care, right. So anyways, my question for you is, do you think that's enough right if I said, if I try to set this foundation for this young man of be kind, be respectful, treat people, you know, the golden rule treat people you want to be treated and all these other things do you think like that's enough and we we have been having those awkward sex conversations since he's 12, you know, stuff like that so I know there's a little bit more but do you think that's a good foundation or does there need to be more when it comes to teaching our young men. Yes and no, of course it's of course it's a good foundation of course that's the starting point without that what do you have it's a it's a basic human value isn't it that I think has become eroded and and replaced with something which is a kind of uber capitalistic neoliberal dog eat dog, as long as I don't care you know, and of course kids also get affected by that. But it's not enough in in one sense and this isn't your fault, it's just your responsibility and problem. That's the on reassuring thing. Consent consent is great when we talk about toys and when we talk about sitting in somebody else's seat that's just gone to the restroom and just those basic good manners but consent I would love to do away with the word consent when it comes to sex. If you ask me, you know we meet in Starbucks you asked me to to loan you $10 I might consent to doing that, but we understand that the word consent is grudging it's kind of a bit grudging so I might consent to going out to dinner at the restaurant I didn't want to go to but my partner did right okay I'll consent to that. We can't talk about sex in this way it has to be. It has to be enthusiastic participation, whether or not and clearly I'm not talking about a 12 year old here but I'm talking about sex. We're adults and the way we understand it, whether or not you meet someone in the back room of a sex bar, and you don't even know their name, whether or not you go out on a date that you've you've hooked up, you know, through grinder or through some other dating or whether you meet someone at a dinner party and fall madly in love with them there and then right consent has to be a word that we really start to do away with, because the power is always in heterosexual sexual liaisons the power is with the man, whether or not he chooses to use that. And many men choose not to use that and actually work very hard at shedding those assumptions and that sense of entitlement that men are raised to have. But really consent. I don't want to consent to sex. I want to really want it. So, so that's a conversation that how would a 12 year old get to grips with that well, I suppose, you know, looking at the kind of programs that are tackling this there's one really, really excellent example I'm going to give you, which is culture reframed an NGO that's based. It's secretariat is in Boston, but it's an international NGO where it's run by a great, great feminist campaign at one of I think the world the most leading experts in anti porn work from a human rights perspective from if you like a pro sex perspective opposed to a moralistic religious perspective. Now Gail Dines set up culture reframed after a long time working in academia and looking at the power of imagery and how the porn trade makes its money and how that money then translates into pushing technology driving technology and why it's ended up on the cell phones of our 10 year as well as, as well as being normalized to the point of where we have Pimp and Hobals we have Pimp of the Year awards, you know we've have I mean last time I was in, in Nevada, it was to attend the, the, the porn awards, the annual I didn't win anything though Chris, but clearly I was, I was reporting on it. And you know that that's the normalization of porn. Now what Gail Dines and her crew at Culture Reframed does is that she has the conversations with parents. So the parents are the ones or their guardians whoever they are but the parents are the ones that are going to have to talk to their kids about this. My God, I don't have kids but there are plenty of young people in my life. I wouldn't know where to start. It's a tricky conversation. And the last thing that we want to do is put kids off exploring their own bodies exploring their sexual responses and exploring sexual pleasure for themselves, thinking about sex as a nice thing that clean when they get older and it's the age of consent and it's a mutual kind of arrangement that they're not that we haven't screwed them up. We haven't gone too far in stigmatizing what they are exploring, but that we put the stigma and we problematize the pornography and the adults that want to exploit them. We put the stigma firmly on the exploits and on the porn industry and not on our kids. And it's a tricky thing to do but from what I'm seeing from what Gail's done she's having these conversations with parents of preteens and she's having them with young teens. And I think it's really done something great for these parents who didn't know how the hell to do it. Yeah, no definitely check into that and, and yeah like I so here's what I've been doing lately so my son's 12 starting to get a little sex education in school, we watch a lot of like shows and TV together and stuff, mainly like Marvel and things but he's a, you know, he's been watching other stuff with us like not too grown up and stuff that he might be interested in and everything. So something I've been trying to do since he's 12 he'll be 13 in a few months is like I've always been like the type where I'll like grab the remote and fast forward like any type of sex scene you know whatever. And finally I sat him down and had a talk I'm just like listen I'm going to stop doing that. And just so you know I'm 36, and it's still weird for me when I sit in a movie with my mom. And that's on the screen I'm like it's just a parent kid thing you know whatever, but I don't want. I don't want to give him the wrong message like oh this is bad this is something you know whatever, but, but on the topic of porn something I've noticed. And here's the only times I still fast forward is there and we live in a very sexualized society. There's sometimes where it's too much I'm like that scene was way too long didn't add anything to the story you know what I mean just because and those are the ones where I'm like all right, that's enough, you know, whatever. And I've actually heard I've actually heard more of my adult friends, you know, even sexual people who are like it's in this show it's like too much right. But here's so here's something and like I we might have to do a part to because I think I could talk to you about this forever. So the topic, the topic of porn and sex work and all that so as I mentioned a little bit earlier. I've been talking a lot with my friends here in Vegas I have friends who have stripped I've had friends who do like before only fans popped out they were doing like photography and and stuff like that you know all this stuff right so yes I I've looked at the research and I understand like, you know porn right like it's it's bad for like young men. It gives us like kind of false idea of what sex is and you know, and some of it is like you know, violent and all these other things right. And then and then you know there's been multiple stories lately about porn hub, having to crack down or you know, crack down, because some of these young girls are being sex trafficked and then they're being recorded. All this but anyways, here's the question I have you talk about it in the book. I've read other stuff on it but I'm trying to understand so since you're here. I want to understand so I'm very you know liberal progressive and part of what I think about feminism is women making their own choice right yeah like one of the greatest things to happen was where we started to normalize women going out into the workforce, getting a job doing whatever they want right. And one of the issues is, you know, men have seen ownership in the female body, you know. So, I'm trying to understand, I'm trying to understand this concept of, you know, because in my brain and I've seen like you know other guys be like yeah go for it do only fans whatever. Because in my brain it's like okay, you are doing your body, your choice, you're making money, how you want. And during the pandemic, especially we've seen this explosion of people going on only fans right. So there's this other argument that we're infantilizing women by saying, No, this is bad so that's that's where I'm at I've talked with a lot of people and I'm and I see more people actually agree with you and I'm. It's hard for me to reconcile those two things so you're the expert lay it on me because I want to understand. You know, I haven't been in prostitution but I have, you know suffered sexual exploitation. It's a spectrum I would argue, no one experiences the same, but I've spent decades talking to women who've, who've left prostitution who've escaped the sex trade. There have been actually trafficked cross borders women in high class prostitution women in on the street in all kind of scenarios and, you know, this is something that I've been looking at for a long time but in particular the last couple of years I wrote a book The Pimping of prostitution on the global sex trade and I looked at the arguments in detail that are used by the pro prostitution activists the pro sex work lobby. And those that we see on our TV screens and on, you know, here on our radios and on podcasts and not representative of the vast vast majority of prostituted women. Now that doesn't mean to say that their experiences aren't valid and that they're theirs of course they are. And I'm not in the business of telling women, they don't have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. I'm not in the business of telling men that if they pay for sex with a woman who clearly doesn't want sex with him because otherwise why would the cash be involved. He is an abuser he is on the spectrum of a sexual violator. He needs to understand that that woman doesn't want to be there. This is a two way street that he is doing things to her, probably or possibly because his girlfriend doesn't want him to do that so why is there another woman who he can impose that upon. Why is it that men think, I mean the johns and all men clearly because johns are in a minority, different, you know, kind of percentages wherever we go in different countries but johns are in a minority. They, I've interviewed a lot of johns in a lot of different settings and they seem to have this idea that if they pay for sexual services they can get what they want they can ask what they want. Many of them tell me that they pay the woman to leave afterwards and not speak to him. I mean that's one of the kind of very common jokes that go around the kind of john community you know on sites like Pontonette. And what it does is it gives men a sense that women are there for them when they want to their convenience but the effect it has on women is profound. Now if you have a woman who's paying, for example, for her higher education, she might be at the University of Nevada doing her doctoral thesis on sex work. I would put in a few shifts at one of Dennis Hoff's brothels in order to do her research, interview the women, and also turn a few tricks for a bit of extra cash. Well, I would call her a tourist. I would say that she is dipping in and out of the sex trade in a way that most women don't have the opportunity to do. I suppose she may be making a choice and she's making a choice in very different circumstances to the women who have no other choice now. I suppose if we get into semantics here, the way that we measure whether somebody is doing something of their free choice is that there are alternatives. So if I say to you I'm a journalist Chris and this is something I actively and happily chose. I had thought about being a researcher. I had worked in all kinds of other settings. Clearly I haven't been coerced into journalism. And also if I decide to leave journalism, I don't need an exit strategy with psychological support in order to get out. Right. So, so when it when I hear the word choice, I think, who has the choice to these women have a choice to do something else. Because when I asked men, if they would rather work a shift in McDonald's, or take it up the ass from a stranger, who they don't feel any sexual desire for, and who they don't know when he last had a shower. They choose the shift in McDonald's. They do. And, and, and why, why else, you know, how else can we explain it, except for to say that the Johns have the most choice in the prostitution contract exchange, and the women have the least choice. So, yeah, that's so that's kind of what I've been hearing actually talk to the friend who's been in sex work for a while and like I you know I've been trying to educate myself and have conversations and, you know, I'm just always curious that's why I like reading all these books and stuff. And yeah, like, from my perspective, it was just like her she's just like, I want to do this is what I'm doing you know what I mean but she's, you know, not only did I learn a bit more about her and you know similar what you're saying but all the other women she's talked to who are, you know, doing this and that lack of choice. So I guess my main question is because I try to play out conversations and scenarios in my head, right. And I think we also have to include you know there are there are women who help on only fans, just pictures there's no male and female interaction, you know, all that so with that, and playing out some conversations. Are there in your experience or in your opinion are there any women that are just like this is 1000% my choice. I am not experiencing psychological harm, you know what I mean, because when I play out that conversation it almost feels like, like if it was me in that scenario if I if I put myself in that scenario, I'd be like wait, is Julie gaslighting me am I you know what I mean. So, so help me understand that perspective. Of course that that woman exists, and I have yet to meet her, but that's okay, because I have yet to meet people with all variety of experiences. I met a man in London where I live in the UK. I met a man who was black British and of African Caribbean descent, who was in a conversation in a local political group about racism, and about hate crime and about legislation. And he was getting very angry and he said listen, I'm a black man in my 30s and I have never experienced racism from white people growing up, or as an adult. How the hell do we need to introduce this legislation. And another person a collar said to him. Good for you. I'm delighted to hear that you've had good experiences and that this hasn't happened to you. You are in the minority, a tiny minority, we don't legislate for the tiny minority. Okay, we legislate for the more typical example of, you know how somebody's life is going to be affected by racism. It's the only way I can think to describe it so I haven't met the woman who is the I suppose that the cliched phrase is the happy hooker. Many women who tell me that they that they are and I don't I'm not accusing them of false consciousness, and I'm not gaslighting these women, their experiences are their own, and I can't possibly be in their heads. What I do know, though, is that when I've interviewed women who tell me hey, I'm putting my child through private school. I've never been raped, my clients all smell delightful and they treat me like a lady they bring me flowers. I quite enjoy the sex. It's not as you think it is, and I'll get out as soon as I can, when I've made enough money and it's been great. I earn $250 an hour as opposed to $15, cleaning somebody's house. Okay, that's great. But when I speak to women who've got out of the sex trade further down the line. Every single one of them has told me how she held herself together during that time in prostitution. Every single one has told me how she had to be in a space where she split almost from her consciousness, different person, and just hung on in there. Well, do you know what those women are strong, and they are like you say about your mom, they're kick ass. Right, we do not underestimate women that go through prostitution that hold it together that save the money that get out and that survive, but my God are they rare. So what I would say is instead of actually looking at the woman and her choices and her good experiences in prostitution, which it becomes a smoke screen for the industry it becomes a smoke screen for what we really should be talking about men's choices. Men's abuse men's experiences. Why a punters johns, as you call them in North America I get it but we call them punters there are many words for them some of which I'm not going to repeat on your. But why is it these men are on these forums and I've spent a lot of time looking at those forums, I'm talking to the men direct in detail. I'm talking about these are white guys I'm talking about here. They're talking about hey, you know I want an Asian babe because they do what you want they swallow your arm. You know I want an African woman because she never wears out she can take it, you know, all night all day. You know I want a Chinese woman because in all these racialized stereotypes that are rooted in a kind of racist colonialist misogyny that are so insidious, and that gives men permission to look at women as though they're in some kind of, you know, burger joint or sweet shop you know candy store, choosing what they want who they want. The attitudes they have about the women, they're talking about how he was fucking her doggy style and she was crying and saying no no no, but that was all part of her game turned on. And then tell themselves that the women have orgasms and that they enjoy the sex. When you interview the women, and you tell them what the johns are saying, they laugh. Even the women I've interviewed in Nevada brothels that are actually selling sex as I speak to them. I mean not actually you know, you know, but are actually in those brothels, you know and I've, and I look. I look carefully to what women tell me and I never tell them that they are giving me a false response I never question them when they say I've never been raped I love my work I just listen to what the women say. And I don't know if you recalled a bit in my book where I spoke about going to the Nevada brothels to do research. I went to a woman there. And clearly she'd been briefed by Dennis half who, thankfully is now dead terrible terrible man monster of a man. And he had said yeah, Julie you can interview the girls. There are always girls never women. They call him daddy they were required to call him daddy. And he said, I've got some girls for you and he is one and let's call her Annie. And there was pornography of Annie on her own bedroom wall because these women are prostituted in one room they live in one room. They sit in one room for months on end that can't go out without permission from an assistant pimp, because they don't want the women to go into town, in case they pick up an STI from consensual sex with men. And then you know the Johns might get infected which is bad for business. The women have the women have weekly blood tests as though they're some kind of livestock to see if they're riddled with disease as one of the assistant pimps told me but the men do not. And of course nobody enforces condom use of the men it's all down to the women. I'm talking to Annie, and thinking about how she must feel having pornography of herself played out on the wall in her bedroom. And she tells me how much she loves her work and what a great brothel it is and how she loves the other girls. They all get on really well. The Johns are all lovely. And as I'm preparing to leave. Gosh your room doesn't have any personal effects you know it has no photographs it has no kind of, you know I don't know about you Chris but in my room there's kind of like you know jeans over the chair there's another one, there's you know my laptop and books on the floor. I thought it looks very sterile. And she kind of took a minute and looked at me and then she opened the drawer of her bedside table and took out a framed photograph as a beautiful little girl and showed it to me whilst holding on to it and said, This is my daughter. I don't want to keep this photograph hidden, because I don't want those dirty bastards with their spermy hands touching her. And that told me everything that I kind of had feared for that woman that it's a veneer that she has to put on that act that she understands are harmful to vulnerable females like her daughter. And that this is something she's doing either for survival or because no other choices are open to her. Yeah, no and and excuse my language Julie but you just blew my fucking mind like that. Now it makes more sense especially with the black man like I'm like I'm half black and I've been looking at all these, you know racial conversations and stuff like that. But if I'm understanding you correctly, it's, it's kind of like, you know, just because a minority doesn't experience this, the majority, right, and with what you just said that's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, like my background I'm a big psychology nerd and everything like that. And like you said, like, you can't tell somebody what their inner experience is. But the thing is like what I'm always asking myself like my girlfriend, we've been having these conversations. She'll send me people on tiktok is actually a good story. So she'll send me people on tiktok you know and people who work on only fans and stuff. And I'm always asking myself like, are you lying to yourself right like how would I know if you're lying to yourself because, for example right before we did this podcast I wrote an article, and I was talking about cognitive dissonance, we have to lie to ourselves self deception is a huge thing Absolutely girls that grow up on the patriarch can we lie to ourselves all the time, heterosexual women lie to themselves all the time. You know, it's women with sons lie to themselves all the time, because we have to keep saying. Yeah, yeah, no exactly and that's sometimes it's the only way to survive this but my girlfriend showed me this one video of this of this, this woman who's been in sex work for years and she's talking about, you know, the difference between destigmatization and normalization she talks about how she's been in all realms of sex work from, you know, being a sugar baby to a prostitute to now doing only fans and she acknowledges the all the women who have bad experiences so we need to be having those conversations. But she's one of those people where I think it would be hard to have a conversation that she'd say this is all my choice right. My girlfriend was like remember what this girl said I'm like okay, and then she has me switch to the next, the next tick talk from this same same exact woman, and she's celebrating seven months clean from heroin right. So, so I'm a recovering drug addict I got sober in 2012, and immediately I'm like, I'm like I can't say that anything I did during my drug addiction was my choice because everything, everything revolved around my addiction and that's something I've seen you in Las Vegas to being somebody who's been so who's sober, I've worked in treatment, I know how many women have had to sell their body to feed their addiction to so. So yeah a lot of this, a lot of this is, it's clicking now Julie but I don't, I don't have much time with you and I have to touch on this. Yeah, so hopefully we can condense it but anyways, your book was endorsed by JK Rowling. All right, and like I this whole the whole conversation around the trans debates and everything I find it interesting I think it's really nuanced and Julie I read I read JK Rowling's entire that long ass thing that she wrote. Yeah, and I read it and I was like, this isn't that bad. You know, I'm not you know obviously I'm not a trans person so you know but I looked at I'm like this seems nuanced and when I read your book and you talk about, you know, the the trans issues and stuff. You, I do feel like the words like transphobic get thrown around like all willy nilly and stuff. But anyways, um, yeah I watch it on Twitter you get in some debates about some of these things and everything. So what I'm trying to understand, like I read Helen Joyce's new book I read Abigail Shryer's new book. I, I, as a parent I happen to think that Abigail Shryer's book was fantastic. You know, like I'm like hey, we need to have these conversations you know what I mean, like if there was a spike in adolescent suicide rates we wouldn't just be like whoa whoa whoa don't talk about that. So, but anyways, the question the last question I have for you help me understand like, how, how does the trans conversation what I keep hearing from people like yourself and Helen Joyce is it's it affects women's rights. That's where I don't understand because I think of it like my whole thing is, like, you know I'm an atheist right but if you're religious I don't care as long as you're not hurting anybody. So with the trans conversation I'm like, if you're doing your thing, as long as you're not hurting anybody so can you help me understand. How does this affect women's rights like what, what are women losing in this trans conversation, and since we're wrapping this up, is there like some kind of middle ground to compromise where because like I said I don't think you're transphobic. So, so what where's that middle ground. So, hopefully we can, we can cover that. Let's do it. I mean how cool is it though to get a cover endorsement from jk Rowling I mean that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. She's got a whole music part from a book. I'm Martin and I've rattled over who's one of my heroes. You know the, the trans issue. Okay, to take your second question first. Yes, of course we can resolve this. And the reason why I know this is, so I'm 59 years old, I came out as a lesbian when I was 15. I started going to clubs with, you know gay male friends that worked in the hair salon with me when I was sweeping up at the weekend and they took me out to the gay clubs and in these gay clubs were gay clubs right it was kind of. We had nowhere else to go. Right, we didn't go to straight clubs and straight people didn't come to us. So it was as gay as gay can be right and the lesbians. They were so butch that could have kickstarted their own vibrators you know they were like really that there was some serious camp going on there as well. And what was really fantastic about that community. And it was mainly working class I'm from a very working class background in the northeast of England as you look on my book. And so it was very working class rough and ready as we say. Amongst us were other people on the margins of society. So that meant that there were trans people who referred to themselves as transsexual at the time, or, or transvestites it was, it was not politicized. And there are pretense that this was about changing. You know that that somehow gender was an innate characteristic it was perfectly well understood that there were of course some men that wish to live as women, and the certain procedures needed to be gone through before that was going to be viable. But there were also lots of men who just wanted to dress and be drag queens and who wanted to dress up at weekends and experiment with all that stuff. And you know what we were great friends, they looked after the lesbians they looked after us young women because we were vulnerable to the fascist groups and the other thugs that came into the clubs to do a bit of queer bashing. And gay men often weren't that interested some of them were but some of them really didn't protect us. And so we forged alliances with the loveliest of gender non conforming people because that's what we were to every lesbian and every feminist on the planet, refused to conform to gender rules by the very, you know, belief system we have if we're feminists and saying we want to shake off the sex hysteria types, or by being a lesbian and saying we don't want to have sex or babies with men. So, so that was all great. And to fast forward. And no one, no one gave a damn if we saw trans people in our toilets because they were just there putting on their makeup spraying their hair and asking if somebody would help them apply their false eyelashes right that's what we all did together. Then fast forward to now, all was fine trans people needed legal recognition, because as my transgender friend Claudia says you transitioned in the 1980s. And who has since regretted it but lives as a woman. And, you know, was going through airports. She didn't. She couldn't have Mr. Her original name on a passport when Claudia looks the way she does and lives as a woman. So that's just one example of why trans people needed to be protected in law and have their sex markers changed on on legal documents. The problem happened when our idiotic Tory government decided that the first thing that they would task Minister for women with because it was free and it was easy and it would get lots of collapse was to say, let's introduce self identification for trans people. Let's not insist that they go through any medical process at all, or sit before a board, which I understand would be a pain in the ass if you're a trans person needed to convince someone your sex course it is, but let's not have any scrutiny at all. And let's just have a free for all. Now, even that wouldn't be so difficult and dangerous. Were it simply that men because it usually is men and certainly wasn't the time that these proposed changes came through. We're declaring themselves as women, I don't care who declares themselves as what right do what do what you like call yourself what you like dress how you want please I'm a feminist, I endorse that. The problem came when in order to ensure that men who wish to live legally as women. But without any process, demanded use of our single sex spaces, refuges shelters, rape crisis centers, hospital wings, prison wings, sports facilities, because we have to safeguard against sexual violence. Not because all men are rapists but because enough men do sexual use in order for us to have built these services from scratch. Then we couldn't possibly allow that to happen. We offered to help trans women build their own shelters build their own rape crisis centers, because we've done it from scratch and with no funding. So we said to our trans sisters will help you do it. But what we can't do is say that you can legally just come into hours because all kinds of opportunistic men will do that. We're in Vancouver where just blokes just ordinary men, Jessica, even stuff. And they just sat there with beers and penises and, you know, just not even making an effort to pretend that they live as women. And it's what happens is it chases all the vulnerable women out of that service. What we said is we'll help you build these spaces because we've done it ourselves and we've got loads of expertise and will support you doing it because trans women do need protection from male violence. They don't need protection from feminists. They need protection from male violence notice. And so the final thing I'll say about it is what made it terribly dangerous and toxic and why those of us that campaign to end male violence had to get involved is because in order for those men who are identifying as women, there are autistic men that just want to assault women and just really hate us for having our own spaces, which clearly most trans women don't but there are enough men that do as I say that will jump on that bandwagon. In order to access those spaces and it not be inconvenient for them having to answer loads of questions. The trans activists, as opposed to trans people who just want to get on with their lives the trans activists including the organization Stonewall in the UK campaign to end our sex based rights that we fought for decades for 100 years. The campaign to overturn sex exemptions with gender expression, which meant we would lose every single bit and I do not exaggerate of legislation that protects us as women and girls from male violence we would lose that and gender expression would not support Trump it. So the reason why for feminists like me, and there are plenty of women kicking off about this that aren't feminists actually that don't like lesbians don't like gay men don't like trans people. Some of them even support Trump they're not feminists they're not on our side and we don't work with them, but why feminists on the left who campaign to end male violence are so angry about self identification and the way that the conversation is going, which is any man can identify as a woman and we asked no questions in our bathrooms or in our prisons is abhorrent there have been women who've been raped by convicted sex offenders who are male bodied, who take on the identity of a woman and they're asked no further questions. So we can't have it. So we stand by trans people. We stand against the abuse marginalization and human rights violations of trans people, but we cannot lose our sex based rights as women in order to appease a tiny minority for whom there should be a third way. And not that all that makes so much more sense and I and I get it and, and I do believe you that you think like there's this way to work together and I wish I wish we had more time Julie we might have to do a part two sometimes because I now that my wheels are turning especially with like shelters for women, because I know some women who run shelter for women and my wheels are turning and I've worked. Yeah, so anyway, anyway, Julie you, you are amazing. And yeah I love the book I hope everybody gets that I learned a lot I learned even more from this conversation so I'm going to link the book down below. It's going to be released in more countries, but for the work you're doing and you've been talking a lot and doing a lot of stuff. I follow you on Twitter is that the best place or where can people keep up with your work and what you're doing. Twitter. I do have a website which I barely ever look at but it's there. I think it's the Julie Bindle.com not because I think I'm the Julie Bindle but because the other domain was already taken. That's a great and my website is on there I'd love to hear from from people I'd love to talk to you again Chris. And by the way, complete and utter congratulations for getting through your hellish addiction situation and you know that that was the pretty tough so good for you. Yeah, no, we're both a couple of fighters and that's just what we do. Thank you so much Julie and yeah hopefully we'll be talking again soon. Love to Chris.