 So I have the honor and privilege to introduce my friend and colleague, Phillip Marshall. In 2006, after years of increasing concern, Mr. Marshall, with the help of others, sought a petition of foreguardianship, which he was awarded for his grandmother, Brooke Aster, who was victim, who as a victim of elder abuse by her son, Phillip's father. The story was chronicled nationally by the press due to Mrs. Aster's renown. The nature of allegations indicated in the petition and events culminating in a six-month criminal trial and conviction of Mr. Marshall's father and one of his grandmother's lawyers. Through her life, Brooke Aster was known for her philanthropic work in New York City. Today, Mr. Marshall believes that his grandmother's greatest legacy nationwide is twofold. How her sad circumstances have spurred a greater recognition of elder abuse, and as an active senior for almost half a century, how Mrs. Aster's life exemplifies ways our last decades can be so purposeful and filled with philanthropy and engaged love for humanity. Mr. Marshall now seeks to tell his grandmother's story and to help the greater cause of elder justice. Phillip Marshall has been teaching and practicing in the field of historic preservation for over 30 years. He has held faculty positions at Columbia University, University of Vermont, and Roger Williams University. His consulting includes work with the Hopi Nation in Arizona, the Tibetan community in America, and federal and state agencies, museums, and other nonprofit organizations. He serves on the board of national, state, and local organizations as well. Since 2010, Mr. Marshall has been border-to-border, coast-to-coast, face-to-face with elder justice practitioners nationwide. He has testified before the U.S. Senate Special Committee on Aging, presented keynote addresses and worked with nationwide organizations representing the financial industry, health care, law enforcement, social services, and other arenas to advance efforts, in particular with his organization BeyondBrook.org. It's my great pleasure to introduce my friend Phillip Marshall. Thank you, Adam. Thank you so much for inviting me to be here today, once again, to be part of now, not just Social Justice Week, but Social Justice Month, as it scales up, and I can see that it's heading toward Social Justice year, after year, after year. But thank you for getting us all, getting us here, and also to really showcase what everybody's doing campus-wide. What I'm doing today is basically trying to test-drive with your involvement a concept that I sort of developed, called up, upstandorship, as you can see, to try to address not just elder justice, but sort of frame elder justice in a broader context in terms of social justice, realizing that while elder justice is in its infancy compared to other realms that define our social, legal, and moral obligations, that social justice is not just about one cause, we're just about another. It's inclusive and embracing. And so I'm test-driving this with elder justice, but it should be applicable in other arenas of social justice, and that's where I really need help to see whether it's pertinent or not. What happens when it comes to social justice is we're kind of going through the alphabet. And social justice started initially with animal abuse, and as causes usually go from case to cause, and that's pretty much what I'm doing right now, but a lot of times you go from a cause that's developed basically from case to case law, as you know those of you who take law. And in this case, the case law for animal abuse informed that for child abuse. And then since we're going through the alphabet, you then get down to domestic violence and domestic abuse, and we get eventually to, coming to E, elder abuse. The reality is elder abuse, just like elders, is somewhat isolated, and the fact of the matter is the greater we place this in context, we realize that elder abuse is part and parcel of domestic violence. That said, there are elements of elder abuse that distinguish it, and you cannot take whole cloth principles for child abuse or domestic violence and apply them to elder abuse and feel that they're going to work. What I feel somewhat comfortable in doing here in applying upstandership in the context of elder abuse is it's kind of new in terms of social justice, but also if we're lucky, we are all going to be elders, and it involves but our self today, but also our future self. And from a cognitive point of view, that is critical because there are impediments to social justice that are really, really informed by the fear factor, as Ernest Becker would say, our denial of death, and so many other elements, much more here. So we're going to test drive this with your help, and as some of you know, when you give me a paper, you say, well, Philip, make it bleed, knowing that only things of substance can bleed. So I'm just saying make this bleed. What happens is I really, really, once again, have to reiterate my gratitude to Autumn for spearheading and shepherding us along here, and I remind, and I sort of came up with the idea, well, this is kind of solutions history. Now you might say, oh, Philip now is coming up with upstandership, and we're not sure what upstandership is, and now there's solutions history. But my reference here is if you go to solutionsjournalism.org, you realize that solutions journalism is basically using journalism and really rigorously assessing current events that inform social justice and through research really come up with analysis that will help inform possibilities. So it's constructive and proactive, but it's informed by research of case studies and examples of front burner issues. And so I kind of see what Autumn is doing here as solutions history, is applying the rigor of history within the context of social justice and community engagement to come up with solutions. What I've got here is you can tell how popular upstandership was or is, because all this stuff is available. What I have is a Google Doc, if you want to contribute to your thoughts of these various components of upstandership. So the upstandershop goes directly.org and com goes directly to a Google Doc. We've got a Facebook page that is basically upstandership.org, is forwards at this point to a Facebook page and Twitter account, both the handle as well as I would suggest the hashtag. And I will have hashtags from time to time in this presentation so that that's sort of a means to maybe make suggestions or otherwise broadcast suggestions. And Instagram, which I'm not using at this point, and an email and my one and only phone number. So these are sort of multiple, hopefully one or more of these apart from whatever our contributions are happening today will help in terms of engagement and involvement down the road. I've got my website beyond Brooke, which is kind of my personal campaign. And again, from case to cause, I am formalizing part of my task. Next week is to really formalize an organization, an offer profit, to take this step up, which will not be beyond Brooke. It will be sort of really an institute. But this is what I have, and so if you want to see what I've been up to, and again, I'll archive this up at beyond Brooke also. This suggestion, because a lot of this is about messaging. A lot about upstandership is about how to message. Is I'm using medium.com to publish and invite you to join me in terms of co-authoring something or just do use it for yourself for what you're up to because it's a great platform. I'm also using Huffington Post, which what my typical attempt on some of this is to write something short. So the typical op-ed 750, 1,250 word, pitch it to the times and the post and the journal. And because folks are occupied in other arenas these days, doesn't happen. So it goes up on medium and Huffington Post. What I really, really like doing, as some of you know anyway, is working together on stuff. And for example, in the context of Solutions Journalism, one aspect of it is the World Bank can publish, can fit complete the most profound report on something. And it could be really meaningful, but as research has it, it might get a hundred and some hits. And what you really need to do if you're doing really good research, and I'll bring up the research later, but here's an example, is you need to message it, just sort of with the pipeline that I described. And if the Times doesn't want to take as an op-ed, we'll try again once we launch the hotline, which we're launching in a few months for this, but basically to co-author work, in this case on Huffington Post. And you can see both of us are indicated as a contributor to Huffington Post. Along with a graphic that's been developed by Nancy, who helped a senior who everybody else was walking away from. So then she's a graphic designer, and so we've got that. And again, that would look good on Twitter, for example. It's just, we've got to catch folks. There's so many answers. It's all about the questions. And I'm not asking very simple questions these days, just in terms of starting the engagement. But profound also, like what is social justice? And I'm going to reach out and see what you all think social justice is. Autumn, what are your thoughts? How would you describe social justice? I defined it in the classroom with thinking about injustice, how to correct injustices, but also how to put a spotlight on those injustices. Then also unfairness, because it's not, sometimes within social justice, it isn't acute. It isn't so obvious. And so also sort of looking for that median area of things that are simply unfair, which the range of racial justice, for instance, hits that spectrum. And so social justice work is a broad spectrum of topics, ideas, and actions. That's a large umbrella. Thank you. Alex. Begin with socials describing justice and justice. We think of law. We think of morality. And that's kind of cold. It is what it is. You can make a judgment. That's somewhat clear. When you add the word social to it, that's a people-oriented word has to do with how people feel individually and feel culturally. And that's much more of a fuzzy, more of a fuzzy topic. And that's also a lot harder to deal with, because different groups of people have different needs. And again, that's a large umbrella as a result. So it's something, I feel like a concept that's a bit cold and direct, and making it less legible. So it takes a lot more time to kind of break down and be able to address each group properly, like you're saying, going through the alphabet in a way. Making sure it's done properly. You can keep that from now. We can pass it around here. Thank you, Alex. The connection between where autumn basically said, sometimes it's not acute. And we'll get to bystander intervention. We have to before we get to upstandership, because bystander intervention is kind of the closest I could get to trying to get something applicable that would help with elder justice. And it just wasn't working. But bystander intervention usually has to do with acute incidences. And because it's been in this arena of bullying and sexual assault, where there needs to be immediate intervention. And then autumn mentions that there's chronic issues. And those chronic issues can be an individual getting chronically abused. But you seem to scale this up. And I think implicit in arms was, this can be a chronic issue at a societal level that affects individuals, but is persistent and chronic and involves what I sort of say society and self. But there's this constant tension. And so it's chronic, and it's systemic, and it's persistent. And so I think whatever we do needs to recognize the reality of that. Let's just see what we've got. What about elder justice? Now, how would that be different or not? I suppose we're targeting now in a specific social construct. You're narrowing the definition of what kind of social community you need to serve. The who is more clear than just social. It does fall. You're going down the tree, I suppose. Wish you could look at the word structure itself. I think what, to me, because thank you, I know there's still a whole lot of social justice. I've been grappling more with the elder justice. And I think some of it can scale up. Some of it can't. To me, social justice, there's a inequity, or lack of equity. And sometimes it can be many forms. And we'll talk about polyvictimization, many forms combining. But it could be economic. We know that. It could be all sorts of issues with this equity. But there's a power imbalance. There's a disacquity in terms of power imbalance, along with money and social issues and environmental issues, social environmental issues. But there's power imbalance. There's certain things in elder, when it comes to elder justice, is there's a power imbalance that has to be addressed. And there is, within that, an expectation of trust. In a relationship, there is an expectation of trust within that relationship, even though there may be a power imbalance. And at that point, that's really both an impediment, but also within the trust framework, just as the little in advance, elder abuse may be the betrayal of trust. Elder justice is the provision of trust. And I'll be delving into that a bit. But I think it's basically that betrayal of trust in a power relationship really is at the root of it, as to how it manifests itself as far as elder abuse. Lots of examples. We had talked earlier this semester, and you said to me, autumn, I had to decide if I was going to serve the youth or if I was going to serve the elders. So that made me stop and think about, well, what's the difference or similarities between those two groups? And a big similarity has to do with disempowered. So I think, looking at your list here, a part of attention is having to bring attention to this issue of elder and to have people understand that just because someone has traveled through their life, maybe accumulated money or property or whatnot, doesn't necessarily mean that they maintain that empowerment over their lives. Correct. And so actually just bringing attention to the very fact that this is one of the critical issues of disempowerment, and that could have to do with either health issues or perhaps familial issues that then jumps to the very thing that you were talking about, which is the betrayal. Right, the power, you know, because what happens is there, the contextual risk factors that predispose somebody, and I shouldn't say somebody elder abuse, because basically you have a dyad. You have the elder and you have the abuser. And usually the abuser is more dependent, usually the abuser is a family member. I know that. Usually the abuser is more dependent on the elder, okay, in terms of money, housing, and you throw drugs into the situation and other things and that's a huge issue. But that said, the elder or the senior, basically those contextual risk factors will be cognitive impairment, immobility, and other things such as instrumental activities of daily living that they can't do. Can they even pick up the phone and call? You know, can they make a meal? And so when those come in, it really makes it worse, but thank you for the segue to what we're slowly getting into. What I am developing as a values for this institute I'm working on is this, trust, we just back to elder justice is the provision of trust through relationships and responsibility. I'm gonna just at the end give you a kicker in terms of where upstandership is placed. Upstandership is a process of engagement and responsibility. And you're going, well, how do we, where do we place it in our social context? But this is it. It's trust through relationships, which we're really not talking about a lot, but responsibility, which is the vital core of the upstandership. What are the fundamental, you just one or two, there's one on the top of my list and you'll see what it is in a minute. What is the fundamental impediment to elder justice? Awareness. Awareness because seniors are invisible, for example, cognitively, physically, any other impediments. How about let's just head off in this direction. We're gonna talk about Mary Teph White because we're in the Mary Teph White Cultural Center. And Mary Teph White, the Older Americans Act in a number of states in an ages way, say that seniors are 60, okay? Some states seniors are 62, some other states seniors are 65. Let's presume seniors are 60. Mary Teph White at age 60 was a senior. In two ways, you've got the first, right? She was a senior because at that age, at 60 years old, she graduated from Roger Williams, Magna cum laude with a BA in Fine Arts, okay? So she's a senior. What happens is, you're not some of you, you've all been seniors and some of you are gonna be seniors again in terms of here. But seniors are 18, ageism starts early and it's very strange that the progressive movement that did so much for social equity is a kind of a teachable moment at age five when you go to first grade and when you're 18, you're a senior in high school and when you're 60, you're a senior in something else. And all this was an effort to really help in a progressive way, but it's kind of been tricky. So ageism, my feeling, what happened when Professor Jensen de la More, who's on sabbatical, came last year, when I came back, you all, I came back and I'm in a meeting in our school and our colleague came in to speak to us, both faculty and staff, about issues of justifiable concern that had been articulated the semester before, the spring before on campus with students. It was a really, really constructive workshop about what do faculty do when students have a concern? Whether it's, and some of these are cute, but some of them are microaggressions, you know? And some of them are systemic, but concerns, how do we do this? And I got up and I said, you know, I've just been off on unpaid leave for a year doing elder justice. And I realized the critical and most significant impediment to elder justice is ageism. But I didn't have to learn about ageism by going and working with seniors who are 60 or 70 or 80. I see ageism on campus, college communities and ageism in high school. Technically, at age 18, you're an adult. But my feeling is that there is, and Bernice Newgarden in 19th, she did seminal work, in 1974 basically said that high schools and colleges were ghettos for the young, okay? And we know that nursing homes and retirement communities are ghettos, what she said, ghettos for the old. But the same what students are in some ways involved in is when seniors who are 18 or 21, may I add, are looking at the same thing in terms of segregation and isolation and being discounted, okay? And when I play, if I'm gonna play a hardball, I go, well, for those who are complacent, that's the term senior discount is redundant because seniors are already discounted. And then if I really wanna play a hardball, it's like for some of those who are complacent, elder justice or elder abuse is redundant because abuse or beauty from Italian means used up. And people feel seniors are already used up. So back to seniors, there's a segregation and isolation physically. There's a segregation and isolation cognitively. And if you think seniors are isolated, we're all isolated in disciplinary silos. And that's happened for years. And that is an impediment to social justice at large to environmental work and we've done so much here. I think with sustainability here, it's now five, six, seven years ago, we had a gathering in January on sustainability, 20 different professions were represented. That's what we need more and more. And I think in historic preservation, there's always so many professions that come in. And I think just to lastly, one of the greatest impediments in terms of the factors for ageism, maybe in some of your hands. And that would be the vestige or the result of the printing press. So we're going back 500 years, but once you have the printing press showing up, you no longer have this repository where elders are the repository of knowledge and dare I say wisdom. And now that this may still be a vestige of that from up 500 years ago, but this is what you're holding in your hands. That is also an issue in terms of combating ageism from a cognitive attention point of view, but also sort of that knowledge and wisdom. Just mentioning Emil Durkheim, where you've got this division of labor, which from, and what's happening in elder justice is we have multi-disciplinary teams coming in to work with people on a person-centered approach. And we've got to sort of get away from this ivory tower. And you might say, where's Phillip going on this? And I'm going to say that to really to end ageism, we need to begin with engageism. And what we do, we've got an HP sauce here. What's the secret sauce in preservation? Keep in mind, autumn has a degree in preservation. So she knows what we're talking about here. And if I could remember this would be fine, but I'm going to talk about something in terms of the HP sauce that's helped me out. Last year, I kept going to Albany. And one of these times I'm testifying between all of these committees. The first time I did it, I made the analogy, I was helping roll out something for the New York State Office of Victim Services because they were expanding their work on elder justice. And I'm going to maybe read some of this, but here we have the New York State Capitol, which this space is just one of the top, top spaces in the country in terms of the two staircases. And it underwent about a $28 million restoration a couple of years ago with involvement of Roger Williams alum who were there. I was actually doing a keynote. I pick up the phone and alum says, I'm on campus. Can we have lunch? I go, well, I'm in Albany looking at a crane on top of the Capitol. He goes, that's our crane. Do you want a site visit? So an hour and a half later, I'm on looking out over the Adirondacks from this incredible structure. And it had, but this is what I'd like to just share with you. There are many parallels between historic preservation and elder justice. Historic preservation started out in response to the damage and destruction to our cultural resources. Harm inflicted due to poor policies, practices, disinvestment, and a discount of their ageless value. Early on preservation is good. We're good at saving sites and structures that were victim to neglect, abandonment, maltreatment, theft, and inappropriate interventions. This work which continues is heroic, visible, and visceral. Yet this work is reactive, not proactive and preventive, nor does it engage all community stakeholders which we now choose to embrace and embolden. In the same way in working with those who are vulnerable and victimized, like older adults, we realize that proactive community concern and capacity are just as important as professional restoration, which is damage control after the fact and which, for some, like older Americans, does not address the full nature of strengths and vulnerability. Damage control alone is unacceptable. Older adults and their circle of support must be valued and protected and empowered before abuse occurs, not just after. We must prevent abuse more. Our greatest resource and our first line of offense are our communities, coupled with existing programs and services that can protect seniors at risk. And so historic preservation and elder justice both respect and protect the ageless value of that which is old but which may be discounted, sometimes until it's too late. You already know you don't just do homework, you make homework. And people go, oh, preservation is nostalgic. It's like, yeah, it's nostalgic because nostalgia, if you loosely translate it, means from Greek, means coming home. And that's, in essence, what we work with in terms of communities and when it comes to seniors, that is their goal. And that's all my grandmother's situation was about, was making sure she was coming home, physically and in many other ways. So you know, to end this agism through engageism at Roger Williams, we do this all the time. And CPC, I've got to give a shout out to Arnold who's in some meeting. I think he's got his staff meeting. But we're basically, we're doing that here. And I think that that's been so good. And I think that what happens is in the context of what we're talking about today is basically that there's opportunities all around to end, to stop these silos, maybe even in the context of what we're talking about here. Now, some of you know, here's my grandmother, she wasn't always Brookaster. She became Brookaster in 1951, or when she was 51, in 1953. And she grew up, her father eventually was commandant of the Marine Corps. But here she is in Beijing, meeting the last emperor and Pruie and just all over the world. Then she marries Vincent Astor, her third husband. I'm not related at all. Here he is with Roosevelt, but you know, decades before. But then in 1960, she wrote Pat's Work Child because that was her world as a youth. And you would think, okay, 60, the average age of somebody's living in 1962 was about 67. You know, she's calling it quits right in her memoir. No, she was just starting up. So, and she did write other books. And then Vincent Astor started in 1957, the Vincent Astor Foundation for the alleviation of human suffering. And then he dies in 1959. And my grandmother was encouraged by all the male board members of the Vincent Astor Foundation to go have spas at Bodden-Bodden. And she goes, no, I'm here. I'm president. I'm taking over the foundation. And what she did is when the 1960s terminology helped enhance the quality of life through engaged philanthropy, decades before the practice was mainstream. And she would, at the end, she really funded sort of the legacy big projects, the Metropolitan Museum, the Pomp Morgan Library, the New York Public Library, and a few other big ones. What she was really known for was here at age 95, going out and looking at community projects and vetting them and going, does she have her white gloves, some pair of gloves on, and going and vetting projects and in her 20th century way, if you will, giving these sort of an astro-seal of approval and giving them money through the Astor Foundation, at which point other foundations would say, well, the Astor Foundation's given them seed money. They've exercised due diligence. We'll jump on board and fund them. So this is the community work she did so much. And here she is just going around. She got the presidential from Clinton. She got the presidential Medal of Freedom in recognition of her work when she was 96 here. And she then had a big birthday party from David Rockefeller out in Pocantico Hills, outside of New York and Westchester, at 100. And there were 100 people who were there. And after her 100th birthday, she kind of disappeared from the limelight until I filed my petition for guardianship, and which was discovered by the press, leading to these headlines. And you know, my grandmother would never ever want to be known as one of America's most famous cases of elder abuse, but nor, while in the throes of dementia, did she choose to be victimized, deprived, manipulated and robbed, all as part of a calculated scheme to defraud as characterized by the Manhattan DA. But just as she intentionally advanced the quality of life through her philanthropy for four decades, here at 104, she unintentionally advanced for elders some two generations younger, the quality of life at the end of life. And I filed a petition for guardianship and now we're slipping into upstandership, which we need to do. And we need to focus on the guardianship is a segue to our social compact between society and self. And I'm doing a lot with guardianship. It's not really the direction I'm heading, but it's critical. What happens is, I filed guardianship, no one contested that luckily in New York, persons under guardianship are not called wards and wards are still used in about 30 states. And I will say my grandmother might have gotten a lot of awards, but she sure wouldn't ever want to be called a ward of the state or anything. She was a alleged incapacitated person when I did my guardianship. No one contested sadly, she was, she was incapacitated, she could not help herself. She had no ability to deal with any of the instrumental activities of daily living. But the reality is guardianship completely strips, plenary, full guardianship, a person in purse or money, completely deprives somebody of their civil rights. And while guardianship helps save my grandmother, I don't mind getting up in front of the National Guardianship Association for 90 minutes as a keynote speaker and saying, you know, guardianship is from a legal point of view, because it's based on all states have all their different legal, is the last resort. It really is the last resort, but guardians should be, because of what they do to help people on a good day, should be some of the first at the table as part of multi-disciplinary teams when combined with supported decision-making and supported decision-making is quite different. It doesn't deprive, what's happened is just yesterday, there is a quote unquote guardianship act that was passed in the Senate. Grassley, Iowa Senator Grassley introduced it. And this is also an article in the Atlantic came out October 9th issue, just came out yesterday. So those two just showed up yesterday and it's an incredibly good reporting of an incredibly bad situation where guardianship allows people to legally steal everything anybody has. And Nevada, Clark County, Nevada is the worst and that's chronicled in this. And Grassley's act is going to help with guardianship in terms of prevention and protection of seniors when it comes to guardianship and hopefully will be signed by the president. What helps me on this is guardianship is the real testing ground for our social compact between our independence here with supported decision-making specific to guardianship but if we then take it with our interdependence between society and self. And here we have these two circles which we'll simply say are kind of like a mandorla. And mandorlas are two circles, equal circles that intersects whose circumference intersects the radii and they symbolize opposites. They come together toward reconciliation and a transformation. And so the mandorla is simply a back to Italian, an almond, an Italian, so it looks almond shape. Yes, sometimes Jesus is depicted in mandorla, Buddhas are depicted in mandorla, it go, however you translate it, this is what happens. But this purple zone is where we want to go and you know that I go before the Senate and I say the elder justice is a bipartisan issue. The campaign color of elder justice is purple and equal measure of red and blue, okay? Let's cross the aisles on this. But here we've got this interdependence and now we finally get to upstandership. These little, you can give me a hard time on my logo but this is a little get us through here. These eight dots represent the eight parts which are of upstandership and those little, the us and the circles are not individuals, they're our social compact, it's that sort of society and self where we may be helping each other. What is elder abuse? We've kind of, I think we've kind of covered it in terms of, but there's lots of physical and certain aspects of, there's basically psychological and manipulation and coercion, there's isolation, neglect, abandonment, restraint, physical and sexual violence. Those are all kind of the result. The thing is, seniors can be poly victimized with more than one form of victimization, re-victimized and because these are in family situations, they're chronic. They are, there can be acute when elder abuse first started in the 70s in England, it was granny bashing and there are bruises and broken bones but there is a lot more and I just wrote something up with an American Bar Association on this in terms of undue influence, good new stuff in California on this stuff. Any other thoughts on elder abuse? Pills, vibes that this is what I started, what, yes. I have sort of a question in that. Is there any, in talking about prevention? You had, yeah, basically back to the preservation. If we're reactive, we're doing professional damage control after the fact, that's just not, it's the predictive and I think this is where the more I go, have I ever taken a sociology or psychology course, that this is where it comes down to being able to look at those complex, the diad, the elder and the abuser, the contextual stuff and try to figure this out and those contextual risk factors. It's not in a vernacular way, a wicked problem. It's very complex. What happened, there are various reasons that people invited me to keynote. One is I acted and that's what bystanders, this is where we're getting to now but the other is the results were successful and most people who act are collateral damage. They're traumatized too and it's really tough in trying to back test that to see what could happen is really complex but I think that's essentially what, and there's predictive, I'll give you just one example where the lead prosecutor from the Manhattan DA who tried my father for six months, there was a six month trial. Liz, I said, oh, she's kind of got the Astor case, this is a big one for her, she's gonna go corporate. She did, she's now with a tech startup, not a big one and what they do is they have third party viewing of whoever's account you have permission to view so you can go in and view, you can't take or move any money around but you can view the account, you can get alerts so that you can see if money is coming out and that kind of stuff, that's not looking at the fundamental causes but if a relative is taking advantage of an elder, to me, when I was trying to figure this out, I was desperately talking to a lot of people and I talked to a close high school friend, we both went to St. George's, he lasted a year and then he went off to Australia or something but we were talking back in 06 and his family had been through similar circumstances and he goes, Philip, follow your heart first then follow the money and I go, okay, I guess, well, we didn't know how bad the money was but the financial, to me, the financials were really good on detecting rapid detection and response but when I meet with folks at the big financial institutions I can you do predictive work and they say yes and I'm still not answering your question in terms of how do we see if this is gonna happen but we're just trying to not just stop levitating but make sure there's not a vital wound at the beginning. Just stop and it's tough but the finances are really helping on that assuming that's part of it because everything else is really, really hard because of the isolation and stuff so that's where, and then our own, we talk about elders being cognitively impaired, well, we all are on this and that's where the elders become invisible. I know I hope that helps. What about this bystander intervention that I was trying to figure out and it didn't quite work for me, what is it? Wait, oh, please, we can, yes, you can. I think you did add it to your list. I come from a rather large family and so let's see, on my mother's side is 14 brothers and sisters and we use the word elder abuse. My cousins, my 49 first cousins, we talked often about, we actually use the term abuse when discussing whether or not we should take guardianship. So these people lived, Uncle Joe just died at 105 so they were, they had longevity. But we actually use the word abuse when we discuss taking away their rights, taking them from their homes because they were so feeding the neighborhoods at 90, 95. However, there was this problem and my two sisters and I would have conference calls and say, my mother was 90 and she was cognitively impaired, she was physically impaired and we walked in one day and she couldn't hear very well and the entire basement was flooded because the pipe had broken, she didn't hear it. That was one thing. And then the next day we walked in and she had all four burners on the stove going because she said, I wanna save on the heating bill. Now we were saving the bills at that point, she didn't even really understand. But, so at what point, do you see this, I'm sure you've discussed, talked about this so we'd have these conference calls, are we making a mistake? Because are we gonna go and find out that the block blew up? Right, oh, totally. You know, but she lived there till she died and we kept it up, but we had to do in order for us not to fall to this because honestly that's what we called it was abuse to take them from their homes and their loves and their kitchens and what they did. We paid the price, but we did interventions. So we decided she couldn't live alone anymore. So we just did around the clock. But, so I think it was that. And I'm so excited when I saw, and I love that, I'm gonna tell you. You're gonna tell, okay. I'm gonna tell you when I'm in there. But, because that's the scary part is, and I can't tell you the number of times we talked about taking guardianship and just saying, no, I'm sorry, you have to live with us now. Yeah. It's, you know, the whole issue of guardianship is, is somebody cognitively incapacitated or not? And if they're not, and they go, I don't care about this, get out of here. That AP, Adult Protective Service is gonna leave, Law Enforcement is gonna leave, they may have to file in this incident report, but they're gone. It's like, oh no, this is gonna happen again. What I did when my brother was living a mile and a half from our grandmother's 65-acre estate in Westchester, and he was in Austin, and 0809 came, and he couldn't afford his rent, which he'd been in, his Sears, Roebuck, aluminum, clad, walkup, by walkup of his fire escape, walkup for 17 years. So he went to live with our mother. And at that point, I was, I was not delving in at this level. I was like, oh my, we were still going trial and stuff. So I wasn't out there. But I took the instrumental activities of daily living, or there's one with more. The activity is a daily living. And a lot of people are doing that this. Somebody's out of work, they go back, move with their parent, who now needs help. And I, so I had all these activities of daily living. I said, can our mother do this? If not, and she was actually in pretty good shape. Can my brother help? And if he can't, of course, none of this quite worked out at the end, but he, you know, if he can't do it, who else can? Or can he get training to? But it's those, but like, if you, if you have all the burners on, you're missing a instrumental activity of daily living, but a whole issue of society and self, and self, and staying at home. It's so, so tough. And my advice, based on, not my grandmother, my mother is somehow try to get the finances away. Because even if it's not bad, oh, it's the wrong checkbook for years, you know, or something, or just try to start incrementally or having the conversation earlier. Because it's, the difficult conversations are difficult. And I have a, my twin brother, that's it. He was uninvolved in this, which he really was uninvolved, and nape too, but usually the sibling situation is not always good. And so that can be complicated. What about this bystander intervention? Bystander. It's not my father, it's my neighbor. And putting yourself in a position of power where you see disempowerment to create what you're talking about, creating a trustful bond in order to, in a way give selfless help, because you as, you feel like in your position of society have a moral obligation to help this individual. Yeah. Could, I don't know, any other thoughts on bystander intervention? Because I don't know if you got it, because when I started investigating it, I'll show you the one piece that really sparked me on this, headed me off in the direction, but most of it seemed to be bullying, in let's say high school, or grade school, or whatever, and sexual assault. And so to me, both of those are acute incidents, like they're happening. And somebody comes in and intervenes. And the problem is, if we're already kind of covered, is some of this is chronic and systemic. So you have to take a broad scope approach, and bystander intervention just wasn't doing it for me. So you know what I do. I just sit there and think about it for a while. And this is what I have not, you're the first, I pitched a tiny bit of this in Montana last week to the financial industry, and I'll explain which tiny part. But I was reading this piece by Mary Gilholy and her colleagues, Financial Abuse Through the Lens, a bystander intervention model. It's like, yeah, because I'm working a lot with the financial industry. And this is what she had. And you can see my notes in red. But cues to financial abuse, construing it, deciding. And this is actually, I haven't even looked at this until I put this together. Again, but it's sort of, what are the steps? And so I looked at it, you know, this kind of works. You can see that I've got a couple things going on here. But I really like, you know, I just, I think this construct is good. I thought some stuff was missing along the way. And what I'm describing actually should come full circle and we'll see what happens here. I finally last year ended up doing a workshop of course with these colleagues at the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law. And I'm with all these other outfits, you know, APS, law enforcement, lawyers, judges, you name it. But this is who we need in the mix. And so, these, the Apple, okay, so I'm telling them that, you know, elder justice should be as American as grandmother and apple pie, but it sort of needs this psychological approach. The other thing that really helped me, which I finally, I was gonna do it, then I put it off and last year in February, in between classes, I ended up doing a piece on Buddhism and elder justice. And that was really helpful because basically from a Buddhist point of view, Siddhartha is protected in the palace and then he wanders out and there are four awakenings, but the first three, anybody know the first three? Sickness, old age and there was a corpse, that would be death. Wow, that's ages, that's like totally addresses. And then the fourth one was a monk, among sitting there often, which sort of that's maybe this is where to go. But it's like, whoa, anyway, there was a lot of stuff, but other than that, I'm fairly clueless on this, so I've developed this myself. There should be a circle, but it was a circle that sort of looks like we're doing a seating arrangement for some dinner. So this is where, but it continues. And while we start with, first of all, let me, you can destroy this. And notice that this handout has justice here, but I didn't even have justice here, okay? I had mitigate and heal. I was trying to get through, I go, wait a minute. And it just, it wasn't even like, wait a minute, this is social justice month, I should have justice here. It was more like, well, what is mitigate and heal? Okay, it's justice. And we'll get to justice because we're gonna go down these, but what, so you can destroy this stuff, okay? I think justice needs to stay. Now that's made its appearance, but this is open for change. And this is not reformation. This is transformation. And I'm not saying it's just transformative justice. Like in this case, we could go on, but I won't, but there's great stuff on transformative justice that might help here, but this is a process. This is, the upstandership is a process where in this case, it's, I threw this at somebody and you notice that Gilhule didn't have attention. And I didn't have attention. And somebody who's up at Tufts who does cognitive subset, you need attention, okay? We don't have anybody's attention. We have to come to attention. Who is gonna bring us, who is gonna literally command our attention? It's the advocates who were victims who are going through healing and transformation that allow this justice. They're coming full circle, becoming whole again. They make this whole and bring it back. And so we need to come to attention. That is a preliminary. And just like with the mandorla is the liminal zone where transformation happens. That's pre, it's nothing liminal about attention. It's like we just have attention. We're tending to ourselves. We're tending to our future selves. We're tending to seniors, but we've got attention. However you want to construe it. That allows us into this liminal zone. And liminality, if you check out, I've used the liminal zone in the contracts of the mandorla, but it works so liminality here which is typically has to do with primitive rights of passage work. This is a process. It's a rights of process. The liminal zone is a liminal zone of transformation. There's confusion. When you throw, which is critical to it, with Victor Taylor and folks who wrote about it, the communitas is a community where people are kind of level. And I'm about to slowly introduce you to Chris E. Lee, who was my grandmother's butler. Well, when he, he was a footman, if you will, when he was the butler at Buckingham Palace. He became a general leading the charge along with David Rockefeller and Henry Kissinger and Annette and Oscar de la Renta when he really helped me help my grandmother. He's the one who started. And communitas brings people through a shared experience. And I guess what I'm saying here is through upstandership, even though there's always going to be inequity, the liminal zone provides equity through the engagement of this process of upstandership which not only will help this cause but will help transform other aspects. Okay, that's a, you say that's a, but I think it's really critical because, you know, this is war, this is war. Chris is reading war, you know, sort of stuff on war when he was trying to figure out what to do. And there's, there are two proven ways of redistribution of wealth, kind of. One is war and the other is really, really nasty disease. Okay, and that happens. There are other ways. Those are historically. We're not sure what's going to happen. Here, this war is not redistributing economic wealth, but it's providing that zone of equity where people are working together down to here. And then once you act, it's kind of post-liminal. And so I'm just throwing this heady stuff out because it's in a process. This can happen at the individual level. It can happen within a community and it can happen at a large-scale social level. Mm, we don't have time for this. Anyway. Yes. Mm-hmm. Oh, thank you. So here's the university. Sure, we remember this. When we all come in, years ago, we went through all these like bystander interventions where we had, students had to be a bystander intervention. And I think I never really understood what bystander intervention was. And in order to understand what you're doing, we have to, in a way, create and knock down the straw man and show what is wrong with bystander intervention. I think, because bystander is so, and people go, well, it's bystander, active bystander, they're still stand, they're still. They're still a bystander. Yeah. When you use that term, bystander is someone that's nearby, but it's a one-time thing. What you're doing is actually, and I do this with the freshmen every single semester in the Core 102 democracy. When I make them do these social justice projects, the whole idea of what I'm doing is what's on your slide. Good. Is that, is that I'm teaching them to become an advocate, but to become an advocate is a process. It has to be processed, and there's articulation throughout. So I think the university is wrong now, from now on, in teaching, from student life, teaching bystandership, they should be teaching this. I would agree. Advocates not only for themselves, but for their friends, family. Yeah, well, and there needs to be the, yeah, because the bystander stuff is just, and their pieces, in terms of set bystanders, interventional and sexual assault, their folks are going, you know, this is actually persisting, the silvery man is going to say, woman, I mean, it's tough. Bystander, you can act like... It's active. It's sustained. Oh, a pneumon. Yeah, but I think somebody should, I really want somebody to, I think, well, this needs test driving. Yeah. I mean, it's somewhat, the other thing in terms of transformative justice, my wife, Nan, is in restorative justice, and John Paul Latterac did a lot of restorative justice at Eastern Mennonite University, and then he started the program. He goes, restorative justice does not allow for advocacy. It's like, oh, we've restored it. No, it's a systemic crime problem. We need advocacy, because it's, and so that's why he called his program transformative, not instead of restorative. But yeah, at some point, we're not gonna have time, but I would, anyway, to be complacent about, to be complacent about elder justice is to be complicit in elder abuse. Our silence protects perpetrators, not their victims. Victims of this crime may be strangers. Tomorrow, they may be our loved ones, or perhaps in the future, ourselves. But it's that complacency, this is where I'm saying, there's complacency. So what happens is, we come to attention, but the attention is happening with advocates, okay? And I love this, where the New York State Sheriff's Institute is celebrating national crime victims' rights week with the New York State Office of Victim Services. And there I am, plain hooky. Yeah, it's like, wait, Philip, April 5th. You're supposed to be in class. Thank you. And, but this is the kind of partnership where victims come in. Victims should be involved on every committee, on everything, okay? And you can go, oh, Philip, you weren't a primary victim. I used to call myself a secondary victim. Now we're looking at the Victims of Crime Act, which has a lot of money, and it'll only fund primary victims. No, when it comes to any of this domestic stuff, everybody's a primary victim. Thank you for coming. So attention. We've got attention. Chris Ely, remember Chris the Butler? He brought attention to my grandmother. He's so sweet, areas in O3. He's the St. Christopher on this. He got her home. Now awareness, generally, here are my props. Are we aware of a lot of stuff? Are we aware that, like, that are we aware that maybe smoking is bad? And how do we break or extinguish a habit? No, people are aware of a lot of stuff. What we need to do is spark and kindle new habits, right? There. And recognize that awareness, I'm gonna show you some stuff. Maybe mad was really good on awareness because it really, anyway, mad was really good. Some awareness campaigns are counterproductive. Some actually normalize whatever they're trying to address, which is abusive. And so this is really important. And so here's President Obama saying we need to be aware. Well, we've got to articulate that with other, both express it, but with other aspects. And here's Elizabeth Podnick. She founded World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. But we're talking that the last one, which she unfortunately didn't make in DC, I mean, celebrated obviously worldwide, but is, you know, awareness is not quite enough. And that's good. And I'm trying to fit this into this context where you have awareness. What are we aware of? We're aware that we're not aware of the nature of elder abuse. If one in 23 cases aren't reported and one in 44 of elder financial exploitation, we're just not aware. And that's a sense of awareness, but whoa, the data needs to be much better. These guys, Frameworks Institute is addressing all sorts of, FrameworksInstitute.org, all sorts of social issues. And it's just saying, we're messaging wrong. We're just, we're out there trying to help seniors. And they're great in terms of lots of causes, but it's not strength-based. They're sending people fleeing. So that is so critical. But I had awareness, you know what Mike, where I'm having, you can read. You know, my grandmother and she has no idea who people are. So I knew there were sort of contextual risk factors here. And then I started poking around in terms of knowledge. And to know is to notice. Awareness, you know, and I'm parsing stuff, but to know is to notice, there's actual or alleged abuse. And it's also to know that, to articulate that in terms of eventually knowing that you have responsibility. And so that know goes to a knowledge, goes to acknowledgement of personal responsibility. One thing I'm doing with folks on campus with Chris Menten and a graduate student who's doing her thesis on elder abuse is, and I pitched this to Department of Justice, and that International Association, Chiefs of Police, all these other outfits. I go into this Susan Herman, Commissioner of Collaborative Community Work at New York Police Department. It's like, no elder abuse on RB. I don't like negative campaigns, which means I like positive campaigns. So it's not like no negation. It's to understand, because knowledge works. So, you know, work at this level, but have this articulation in terms of upstandorship, but also in terms of the community. I noticed, and I'm not gonna, I noticed that my grandmother's painting vanished. Her favorite painting, which was gonna lead to the Met, my father sold for 10 million, kept a $2 million commission, and then quickly bought something because he wanted the money to buy something. And it got replaced with a reproduction of her, my grandmother's father's portrait. It's like, wait a minute, that painting was going to the Met. Something's really getting wrong here. And yes, indeed, the painting became an issue. It raised red flags, red, white, and blue flags. And so, but then that acknowledged responsibility. Now, I don't know, so far, does this awareness, how is this looking as far as articulation between these elements? I just think, now the acknowledged responsibility, because I'm working with the financial industry, I spent, this is where I spent time between this and this. Because, let's hear a broker-dealer, and I'm talking to broker-dealers next week, I'm talking to firms, like the big ones. They have a broker-dealer, it's like, somebody's cognitively impaired a little bit, and that could be on its own, that's an issue. And somebody's trying to take their money, they're doing transactions, something's happening. You acknowledge it, but unless you, this is to me, unless you combine the acknowledging responsibility with responsibility, or their ability to respond on a community level, so it's personal responsibility, coupled with the community ability to respond, it isn't gonna happen. And in this case, there's legislation that says that somebody in the financial industry who suspects that it may be abused, exercises due diligence, reports, is hold harmless from administrative and civil liability. And what's cool is when they, their compliance and legal report this, they take it up, they refer it, it gets reported, a potential alleged or actual abuse, then there's an articulation in a lot of the legislation without borne you with that, where they report it to law enforcement, adult protective services, they get the financial information, but then have to report back to the financial industry so the people who are actually acknowledged responsibility are kept in the loop. And so this is happening, but boy is it a lot of work, but that's critical and because this gap, there's a huge gap there between somebody going, I need help and I answer the phone and this is where people get tripped up. People are completely traumatized at that point. They are about to act and they can't. And that's where I was. I was like, whoa, I acknowledge responsibility, I was in a liminal zone and a liminal zone is a zone of transformation, but it's also limbo, okay? I was at it and that's why I'm so compelled on helping others in this way and scaling up and we're developing a hop line if you're in New York City. You're me a decade ago, it's like I could call somebody, I need help so I can help seniors. So there's bits and pieces of this along the way. And at the end of the day, it was about the end of the day and when I went and spoke with Annette Raranta and David Rockefeller up in David's office at Rockefeller Center, it's like if we don't do something now, we will not be able to live with ourself at the end. And here we are going to broker my grandmother's funeral along with Henry Kissinger who supplied an affidavit. I have a story for you on that. And so, we really thought we were gonna be complicit. We're gonna let, we didn't know how bad it was but we knew we had to get my grandmother where she wanted to spend her last days. So that's the responsibility through this kind of stuff. There's lots of legislation but this is what I'm pitching now, that it's back on a senator from Massachusetts, Nick's did it last time. But the senior state fact and this stuff goes to Congress. I send this, well maybe not this image of Massachusetts but these acts will save seniors net worth, self-worth and lives. It's really simple but that's what, and we need this kind of legislation to allow people to act. That's me I guess. And you have to realize your actions are gonna have consequences, lots of consequences. And it is a rabbit hole. It's a total rabbit hole but it's really, really complex and really, really fundamentally simple too. Once you're in going down the rabbit hole it's that systems-based approach. We're trying to bridge the gaps between first responders and community. And the way to do this with what I was mentioning with HP is develop training and education within a community before it happens so somebody is empowered to report or refer knowing that there's community help and supportive services. And this is what I had as helping and healed before but it's justice. What is justice? Is it just making things right? Good, you know, yeah, hang on, Alex. Accountability is really making right, can we say making whole? Maybe, but accountability. Yeah, at first, wait. At first I didn't realize, have a full understanding of elder justice was when I saw along with a lot of other people to help my grandmother when I filed that petition for guardianship, which was granted. I didn't realize elder justice. I helped my grandmother and those trying to help her. I only realized elder justice when I and dozens of others not just took a stand and help my grandmother but took the stand in criminal court and testified against my father and others who were the perpetrators. And that's elder justice. It's accountability, it's making whole. So my grandmother, because she was cognitively impaired was not re-victimized. Some people are re-victimized by the system. You know, she wasn't. And Susan Herman, Deputy Commissioner of Calabar Police, St. Beckett NYPD, she was executive director for the National Center for Victims of Crime before. That was started because of the Vombulo case here in Newport. And she wrote a book on parallel justice. So it's not just, it's usually it's nail the offender, okay? And in this case, it's making the victim whole. So it's both of what you said. And to me, that's that and it's not just the victim. It's the other victims through justice. There has to be accountability. And if personally, if you have personal accountability, it's great. Even if it's like, oh, I have to do a, or having somebody else make you accountable. Like, oh, you need to get this assignment. What's an assignment? You need to get, you know, just, but accountability, but how are we gonna be accountable in this context through justice? And, you know, my wife said, well, she restorative justice and mediation. She goes, well, isn't there mediation? Both parties, the mandorla has to be an equal. There has to be equal. A, there has to be equity in the size of these circles, mandorla. And if there's an equity, you can't come to reconciliation however you define the equity. But, you know, when you're doing mediation, both parties have to want to come to the table. And, you know, of course I said to Liz Lowy, the prosecutor, what about mediation? And Liz is pretty cocky, but nervous throughout a six month trial that this might be because our guardianship judge, we settled the guardianship. And the guardianship judge, after it was settled out of court, a few months later he was dealing with financial stuff, because of his court evaluator, the guardianship judge could say their elder abuse was not substantiated. So all of a sudden it was open season for elders. We were about to have this Plessy v. Ferguson case where it's like anything goes. So we went from case to cause like that, just as the DA was in paneling in a grand jury and issuing subpoenas. So it went up fast. Here Liz just goes, you know, restorative justice mediation, we call that a plea bargain. Well, my father never did, he had six months to, and sadly he was 80 something and being unduly influenced by his third wife who was not indicted. I'm obviously not convicted who was at the root of all of this. But the flip side is we are all accountable for our own actions. So I had thought about this and all I wanted to say, and I had to say it through the front page of the paper, it was, you know, if I could say anything to my father I'd say, please, please, please and seek forgiveness. That's all, I mean that would have been really good. And then he went to, he ended up going to jail at 89 for two months and he's in before the parole board and the parole board says, well, Mr. Marshall, if you could, would you do this any differently? And his answer was, I suppose. That's not enough. Okay, that's way not enough. So, but this is what, you know, and here's the New York Times day of, and it's sort of lots of, you know, here it is. My father takes tens of millions and gets nailed for it, but here it's so good. I'm really glad they had this piece on sort of basically the moral flaw. And, you know, this is in my inbox, you know, when there is personal responsibility, articulated with responsibility or the ability in terms of the community respond, we need to know there's going to be accountability. And when I am with sheriffs and other law enforcement folks and they say, you know, the DA in our county just isn't gonna do anything about this anyway, that's no good. So I'm not going to this, but you know, here it is, it's basically prosecution. You better say this is not just complicated, boring cases that you don't want to try. And you go, well, the victim is incapacitated, won't be a good witness. It's like, well, the murder victim won't be a good witness either, okay? Try these things. And so I'm working with the court system at not at this level, more with guardianship, but it's got to be articulated all the way because that's the problem. I feel that's the problem. And that's what, I'm glad these guys are addressing it. And then you know what's happening with advocacy already, that would be me. And you know, here I am, the problem with elder abuse is here I'm with Mickey Rooney, the actor. Mickey Rooney's like an actor. He was a child actor, he was actor for decades. He got abused, he had testified before the Senate March 2nd, 2011, I'm going back to San Francisco where I came out and my wife goes, coming out of San Francisco means something different, but I came, that was my first talk in Elder Justice. It's like, it works for me. Anyway, she goes, can you get Mickey? I go, hmm, so late March, later March, Mickey's sharing the stage with me. He's not keynoting, but he's signing something and I'm working on a semi-postal stamp, like a breast cancer research stamp. I want to semi-postal stamp out elder abuse stamp. Big project, but here he's signing this, but he was completely traumatized on stage. You know, I'm saying to Jennifer, the executive director, Jennifer, you think this happens every day of the year, except for when you're at your conference? And the problem is most seniors can't be advocates because they're already traumatized and they're already incapacitated. And so it ends up being people like me or others who just say no elder abuse, one way or another. And, you know, going off and testifying for the Senate, but when it comes to this, every voice, these voices can be heard, you and you don't have to get over the hill before you get on the hill and advocate. And I tell you the preservation skills that I brought, I'm on the hill, but it's, if I didn't hadn't had the preservation skills that I have, and you know, I'm more nuts and bolts and bricks and mortar, but in terms of the planning, in terms of advocacy, not-for-profit, the legal stuff, all this is really, really helped out in terms of what I'm doing here, in terms of upstandership, and I'm just gonna segue into one other thing we've talked about. We know that it's trust, but the trust is developed by relationships and responsibility. This has been what we're talking about in terms of upstandership is responsibility. What the relationships, the communitas is kind of relationships in terms of when you're going through the rabbit hole and then liminal zone of how you create a team, because it is, it should be a team, but the relationships, I'm just gonna, as a teaser, the next thing I would invite you to bash up once I figure it out is elder ecology. It's that compact between society and self, but using Uri Brafenbrenner's ecological systems theory and saying, we've got, we're just gonna switch these out. We've got elders, but they're dyads. Elder abuser, elder helper, family, friends and neighbors, work, play, and pray. We've got your professionals and community and they need articulation. So basically the upstandership is a process of engagement and capacity building within communities. So when you have trust, relationship, and responsibility, the relations, this is what I wanna try to delve into. So I've got, so you've got this connection. And so that's sort of the next challenge in my heady way. And I don't know if you will hit the mark, you must aim a little above it. Every arrow that flies feels the attraction of earth. So I mean high on this stuff. I would love you to beat this stuff up in any way you want and drag different folks in. I would love to have some work with some students. I've got work-study students, not through SAHB, but I don't know, we'll see what we can do on this stuff to end ageism. And so that's it. This is the verse right before it. I kinda like the way they articulate. So, and it's all about nostalgia or coming home. And there's Chris and my grandma. Anyway, this was a bit of a tie-right, but I think hopefully it helped you understand what I'm up to. And I would love this sort of pecked apart or worked on a bit. I appreciate you showing up. Shit, shit. What is it, is it guan chi? What's the process of filial piety in relationships? Guan chi, guan chi or something? There's filial, okay, there's something about filial. I don't know. It would be good to look at different cultures in this. You know, so thank you, Autumn. Thank you, thank you.