 Glad to have you back on the breakfast here on PLOS TV Africa. Our first major conversation for today moves to EmoState, where the EmoState speaker has declared the seat of Keneth, sorry, Tochi Okiriki vacant, is the lawmaker representing Mgokbala state constituency in the EmoState House of Assembly. But of course it has been declared vacant for very, very interesting reasons and it's stated that he has been absent for more than one third of the times that the house has sat since 2019. We are going to be speaking this morning with Mr. Mark Adebayo, who is joining us via Zoom. Good morning Mr. Adebayo, thanks for joining us. Yeah, good morning and condiments of decisions to all viewers of PLOS TV Africa, the fans of PLOS TV Africa worldwide. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here and to be with the father and mother Christmas in the studio over there. Thank you very much for joining us. So let's get into it. This is a very interesting story mostly because there's very likely going to be different angles to the reasons he has been suspended or his seat has been declared vacant. There's a part where some people are insinuating it's because he has not agreed to defect from the PDP to the APC, but it's also very interesting from the clerk of the Emo State House of Assembly. It says that he has attended sit-ins just 43 times. In 2019 he attended 29 times, 2020 14 times and in 2021 he has not attended sit-in at all. So let's start with that. Is that in any way normal for State House of Assembly members and maybe also in the National Assembly to simply attend when they feel like it? No, that is not the normal practice or that is not the constitution. The constitution is very clear about the number of times that a lawmaker must attend plenary. The constitution is very clear about that. If you do not attend for some sort of number of times then your seat can be declared vacant. Maybe there are other reasons why this one happened. If truly the lawmaker has not attended up to the required number of times that the constitution stipulates, then even if he was removed for political reasons he has played into their hands because if they have that evidence that he did not attend enough number of plenaries then they have the right to exercise the constitutional provision of suspending him or removing him or declaring he is a seat vacant. You see in this country the people who govern over us, who rule over us, do not take the issues, the business of government seriously. They do not take it seriously. It happens in the National Assembly. Even some of them who attend the constitutionally required number of times, you see many of them sleeping. They would not sleep. A person who sleeps at the time is in the assembly, is equal to the person who is absent. I think a law, I think our organization will send an amendment to that law that if you come and you are sleeping you shall be deemed to be absent from plenary. I think that is what we should do. The thing is that if the guy has not attended, has not attended all to one third, has been elected, all the time of plenary then is due for dismissal from the assembly. It happens at the state level, it happens at the national level. They just abandon, when they get elected they do not take it. Like Europe and the Americas, where the business of government is taking seriously, is taking seriously, here in this line, people just do as they like, they do not go for plenary, instead of them doing that they will go for one occasion or the other or they are telling it to private businesses. It is uncomfortable, it is unacceptable, it is reprehensible. If he refused to cross-couple from PDB to APC, if I were he, I would be the one to ensure that they do not have any reason to remove me. So he was not being smart, he was not even looking for any flimsy excuses for him. If he was removed for political reasons, it was the cause of it. If it is proven that truly he has not attended all to the constitutionally stipulated periods of time, then the leadership of the House, have the right to take this blood reaction against him, that is it, that is my take on that. Okay, but let's also look at the constitutionality and the fact that you are talking about right now. Do you think that, you know, because I remember a time where Femi Fallon or human rights lawyer said that it was unconstitutional for any legislative member to remove, you know, another or suspend another member, the House does not have that right, that's because they were elected and so it would only be a cause of competence judicitation or you have the constituents actually approaching that and we have seen the cases that he had handled that of Dino Melaie and amongst other cases in Baoch in 2021. So do you think that they have a right to suspend him? Is it constitutional for that to happen? With due respect to the respected legal luminary, I want to, my own view is the fact that in the constitution, I cannot lay my hands on the, I'm not a lawyer on the provision of the constitution with regard to that, but in the constitution stipulates and I believe that that in the constitution, that you have to attend a plenary for a number of times, you know, and if that is the constitution, it does not matter the legal opinion of anybody, the constitution is supreme over everybody, and of course we must not encourage this trancy or discipline in the business of governance, we should not encourage it. I believe that discipline for any lawmaker that refuses to go to plenary for a number of times are stipulated in the constitution, you understand me, so if you now play into the hands of the people that are looking for ways to remove you before, then that is your fault, that is your fault. If you was removed for political and constitutional reasons, it probably played to their hands. If I were he, I would not, I would not, I would not give them any opportunity to find anything to hang on my neck in order to remove me. You know, Nigerian politics, you see, there's a lot of pitfalls and and potholes along the way and you, you just have to know how to maneuver and manage yourself. We should not give excuse. Yeah, just, you can go on, but I just wanted to ask, is it important to, you know, clarify the difference between suspending a lawmaker and declaring his seat vacant, because that's what the papers are reporting, that his seat has been declared vacant, and that's where, you know, senior advocate Femi Fallon on May, or what my colleague here saying about Femi Fallon on May also, you know, play here. They may not have the right to declare a seat vacant, but he can be suspended. I'm not sure if it's important to clarify what exactly has happened here. Well, it's very important to clarify, because if he's, if he's seat, if you, if he's seat has been declared vacant, I thought the normal process would be that to, to suspend him and then, you know, carry out an investigation, you set up a committee. It should not be done by fiat. It should not be done by the fiat of the speaker, you know. And we all of us know that most of the legislative houses in our, in our, in the states, most of the legislators are more or less like houseboys of the governors. So in the order, order from the governor, the governor's operate and operate, the control substantially, most of the state houses of assembly on a very few occasions that you have independent minded lawmakers. I think the speaker is becoming trying to, to prove stubborn and become a defender. You see that? The members of the house would remove him and put his body, who is amenable to the governor's wishes and whims. So that is what happens. I believe his suspicions should come, that there will be an investigation, a committee to be set up to investigate it, and he will be present to defend himself. Then after that, you follow the, you follow the due process of law. You follow the due process of law. What's with the weather? Because everybody is innocent until proven otherwise. But without investigation, you cannot by fiat remove and declare somebody's vacant. You know, this, the issue of, you know, the way we operate our procedure system is so funny that people don't believe that they can exercise whatever authority they have with impunity. The lawmaker that refuses to go to Penery is operating under impunity. The people that remove people illegally and unconstitutionally, they operate with impunity. In that same stage, when Ihediyoha was governor, he came in as governor, what did he do? He immediately resolved all the elected local councils of their states illegally and unconstitutionally. And the Supreme Court has ruled that no governor has the authority to resolve or remove elected council members. It did, it affected my party. And now, what happened to him? Then there was, there was karma. And karma came and he was also illegally, and we believe unconstitutionally, removed as governor of his state. What goes around comes around. So we have to, we should stop playing politics with our democracy and the lives of our people. We have to do things constitutionally. We have to do things procedurally. We have to do things following the lay down rules and procedures, so that we do not, you know, accident, we do not accident our democracy. It is important. It's not about sentiment. It's not about a party loyalty or party alliance or whatever. It is important for everybody. If you are elected a lawmaker to represent your own people, to represent your local government, to represent your constituency, friend, you've got to go there and do the work for which you have been elected. You apply for the job, you campaign for the job, you, you, you, you sought their fault, you were footed for. And then you got into the house. Then where are you when other people are determining the fate of their constituents? That is very important. But also there must be, assembly at the national and state level, there must be the clear dependence of separation of power, constitutionally operated so that there is no this, this conviction about executive interference in the affairs of the legislative assembly. One of the reasons why the president, I'm not a great fan of the president, one of the reasons why he signed an executive order in granting the independence of local government, independence of the judiciary, and I think that there must be independence for the parliament itself. All right. So now that, you know, of course, this suspension, these members have been suspended, it therefore means that they do not have a representation. I mean, their constituents is not represented. What happens? Is there going to be an election? I mean, what would happen to the interests of these peasants? You know, I do believe that the affected lawmaker would not take it lightly to probably approach the court to set the record streets. And that is the best option he has. For as long as he's suspended, these constituents are not represented at the house of assembly. And that is very, that is not good enough for, for, for wherever he represents. So I believe, and that is what the constitution states, there must be an investigation. Like I said, you cannot suspend somebody by fiat, you cannot declare his seats vacant by fiat. There must be a process of investigation. And then he must be given an opportunity to defend himself until that is done. Then I do not believe that it can be just simply said that the house has followed due process. And if you follow due process, it is illegal, it is a trap virus. And that is not acceptable on a democracy. He must be given fiat trial. I think he should be given fiat trial. Yeah. One of the things that was said, you know, in, in all of this conversation, you know, was how a lot of lawmakers, house of assembly members, state house of assembly members only show up on, in quote, big days. Maybe when, of course, there is a discussion concerning, you know, money or, you know, something similar. They only show up on those days. And that's why you, you know, like you also said, you know, a person can attend plenary, attend sitting only 43 times in three years, which is shameful. According to the world today, most state house of assembly. So I want you to quickly talk about the quality of lawmakers that we really have in state houses of assembly across the country. You know, what really do they do? And in what ways do they really represent the people of those constituencies? And if we're being honest, are the people of Ngok Palak going to miss out on anything now that he has been suspended? Now, it is constituents who will have to interrogate the father since he has been lawmaker. What impact has he made in his constituency? So it is for them to answer that question. And the thing is, like I said, there is discipline among other executive, the parliament, the legislature and the judiciary. Are you aware this type of law has to be, I think this type of laws will have to apply to the judiciary. You know that, you set a code date, the litigants are there in court, and then for one reason or the other, it has happened before. I mean, human rights organizations that we handle issues of human rights and the rest of that, you get to court and then somebody is in jail who is suffering that you are looking for a way to get them out of the place. You know, the judge, the magistrate will not come. They may say, you know, they may say his car broke down. They may say, he's attending a meeting. They may say he's attending a conference. How do you attend a conference on the day that the destiny, the life of someone is at stake? You know, nobody questions the judge this to the best of my knowledge. You, as a litigant, you cannot even curry him. I mean, you can go to court twice, three times, four times, and then the judge is not on seat, and that is the end of the matter. That kind of thing, if you reassess me, we have to, look, you are working with the television house. Even if you can't relate to work, there is penalty. What are the people that hold the destiny of the whole country in their own hands? There is no, there is no sanction. There is no, there's no way a litigant or somebody who's affected in the court of law can probably sue the judge for not sitting on the day that probably is looking for a bail, or that is the case of how to say life will be determined. The governors, the executive, the discipline is across the board, and that there must be stringent laws about people who are absent from work. If you are playing a role, whether you are a executive, whether you are legislator, whether you are judiciary, if you are playing a role with your duty, there must be stringent punishment and sanction against people like that, and somebody must execute it. You understand me? So, let us leave the sentiment aside. People are not seeing the impact of good governors. We are not seeing the dividend of the so-called democracy. Most of our lawmakers represent only themselves. Look at what happened at the National Assembly recently, about the amendment to the Electoral Act. That is why I advocate for the parliamentary system of government. We are the presidents by fire, by force. The prime minister will come to the house to defend every action of his, every policy of his, every statement of his. You will debate. It's not the decision we have by our president run away from debate when they were doing the election. It cannot. The prime minister is confronted by the representative of the people every day. I know we are costing it down, but I just like to chip this in. Usually, I know that we always put argument whether the system of governance that we are practicing is the same or the type of constitution. But shouldn't we, because when you have a situation where the persons who should, these things don't work in space, they are operated by human beings. And these are laws. So what happens when these persons don't respect the law? So be it parliamentary system, be it presidential system, the question now would be the players. And what if they do not obey? Because I'm sure that in the parliamentary system, if the president does not heed to it, there are consequences. I mean, there are actions that should be taken against the president. But do we follow it? So if you have a system where, I mean, there are laws, it doesn't mean that on both sides, you don't have laws, you don't have measures to call people to accountability. But in the case where those who should do it are not working, what happens? So mostly might not necessarily be about, you know, having, you know, the kind of government, but the people involved in playing it and the system that they have created over time. All right. It is a systemic, it is a systemic issue. And it's also a society at least. I think Nigeria's are too tolerant of bad governance and irresponsible people who are governing us. I think we are too tolerant, you understand. So I think the people we must rise up. And that is part of the failure of the civil society that are not mobilizing the people enough in terms of consciousness and awareness of their rights under the law so that they will be able to hold to account the people who represent us, you know, we should be able to hold to account. As a matter of fact, I mean, the people must monitor their representatives at both the national and state houses of assembly to see what they are doing, what are they contributing in terms of the lawmaking and in terms of representing their interests and the various houses of assembly. I believe that it is the collective responsibility of the citizens. It is part of our duty, it is part of our civic responsibilities to ensure that we monitor those who govern us. I don't think we are doing that. And it is the fault of the civil society community. All right. Mr. Adebayo, thank you very much. We have to wrap up here. Thank you so much for your time this morning. And we hope that these conversations continue and we, you know, citizens continue to learn also. Have a very interesting day ahead. Thank you. You too. Come in. All right. We move away from emo state and now we're moving to the federal capital territory to talk about security as a Nigerian immigration service has placed a very, very shocking warning to residents of the FCT. We'll be back.