 It's lovely to hear, I just wish I understood it. You do, you just don't know, you understand it. Well, I kind of do that with languages, I'm paid and I agree. Or we can just go directly to an actual language like Swedish. Which you don't speak, Neil? Hi everyone, I'm Neil. I was waiting to finish your Unumunda story before I click the video links. No, I don't speak Swedish, but I'm learning Dutch. I'm now in Belgium having left Australia about six months ago. So all the fun and games are trying to pick up the different nuances and the syllables and the different pronunciations. So apparently you're in the Dutch speaking part of Belgium? Yes, Flanders. Yeah. Have you seen the comedian who explains Belgium in politics? No. Please hold, I'm going to consult my brain and find that. Because it's really, really good. And this guy, he's got an evening show. He's sort of like the John Stewart of Belgium. I'm a documentary in Belgium. Is it this one? Yes, the name of the show is Zondag met Lubach. And his name is Arjen Lubach. And here is, here is the video. Oops, come on, bring you got to hurry up a little bit more than that. Copy and I'll paste it in our chat. Good morning, friends. Good morning. How is everybody? Morning. Great. Lovely, lovely, lovely to see your faces. So our co-conspirators at collective next. I'm going to be posting all of these videos to YouTube. But we can head in Howard. Yay. I'm going to have to be somewhat passive because I'm also dealing with some community center issues. We run a community center and service our local. Lowry side music. I'm going to be posting all of these videos to YouTube, but we can head in Howard. Yay. I'm going to have to be somewhat passive because I'm also dealing with some community center issues. I'm also dealing with some community center and service our local. Lowry side New York city community. Which must have been still crazy times. I can. It's been, it's been, you know, obviously hard for a lot of our neighbors. I'm actually trying to work with a autonomous collective that wants to have free refrigerators on the sidewalks to figure out how we can provide them power so that they can fill it with food magically and make it. Give out food for people who need it. It's fun and very liberal and I enjoy it. Could you, could you tap somebody at the Japanese consulate to make it vending machines that don't have a price. Cause vending machines are used to being outside. The refrigerators probably not so good. Right. No, we, I had all sorts of questions about how are you going to close it to make sure that children don't climb in and how are we going to keep rats out and how are we going to keep the sub this, you know, the sidewalks clean and all that kind of stuff, but apparently people in the neighborhood will take responsibility for that. So it's an interesting idea. I hadn't heard it before. It's now featured in eater and potentially they're doing an article in the times about these kinds of things. So we're trying to get ahead of it. It's like little lending life. Oh, you could have very tiny fridges for the rats. I mean, like several years ago, a special rat dispenser. Go ahead Michael. Several years ago they saw this problem in India. They actually have these things on the street. They are vending machines and they do work pretty effectively. Hmm. If you have any thoughts about where one would find such a thing. It's cool. I don't know, you know, we have to figure out how to fund the vending machine right now. We're not funding a lot of our own stuff. This is really, people came to us and said, we see you have a big wall and power. And we have that. And, you know, I've sort of like, yeah, let's figure that out. That's not, that's not a hard ask. Cool. Like, thank you very much. It's off topic, but not because we're trying to sort of devour the universe here and figure out how to make sense of things together. And I really appreciate what you're actually doing in the world as a way of sort of feeding what we're trying to do. Many of you have not been part of any of these calls. So I'll do a little bit of what is this? Why are we here? And then we can jump in wherever we go. I don't, I don't have a strong agenda here because partly what I'm looking for is where do you all have energy? What, how does this open global mind container fit what you're trying to get done in the world? And so we'll head there in a little bit. This project kind of starts with my, having 22 years invested in curating one mind map with this piece of software called the brain. Let me just, let me just share my brain for just a second because it'll make more sense when you see what this is. The brain is proprietary software and I can't, I haven't been able to match what I do with it. So here's Belgium and here's this guy Lubach. I've got this show under talk shows. And as you'll see, I have a whole bunch of other talk shows here. And I think I need to reboot my brain because my computer is busy spinning. There we go. So here's the O'Reilly factor on Fox News Oprah Winfrey show. Ellen DeGeneres, Graham Norton, you'll recognize a lot of these things, right? Then there's serious talk shows and so forth. So I've been feeding this mind map for 22 plus years. And it's been both enlightening and a little bit frustrating. And one of the reasons it's frustrating is that I've got this weird artifact that I've created for a long time and a few other people have it. And most of the people don't have an organized memory for what they've seen and what they've done for a long period of time. So a piece of this open global mind is what if more of us had access to something like that, like all of us have access to Wikipedia, right? I ask people, if I'm in front of an audience, I will often say, who has used the Wikipedia in any way in the last month and 100% of hands go up. And then who has edited Wikipedia in any way and two hands go up, right? It's like, not a lot of people are participating, but there's this shared asset that's actually pretty good. Hey, Lauren, yay. There's a shared asset that's out there that is available to all of us. So, and my own sort of take on what's happened to us is partly because we don't have a shared memory and we're all drowning in the info flood, like every couple months somebody invents something like Slack. And it's like, it's not that your email goes away and your texting goes away and you're, you know, but now you get to add Slack and now you get to try to figure out which of the many Slack channels, the conversation you remember up here was actually in and so forth. But we have few places to curate all of this. So my, the motivation started there, but then also started from my having been a part of many, many, many conferences and events that had graphic facilitation. And I love graphic facilitation. The first time I saw it, probably like everybody else, it was like, ooh, ah, somebody's actually channeling what we're saying and drawing it really large on the wall. And the 20th time I saw it, I was like, damn it. When they're drawing on the wall, it's just like, they're going to take a snapshot of this thing and mail me a PDF after the after the event and nobody's ever going to look at that PDF again. It doesn't function as a memory. And when they put a topic on the wall like racism in America, it's just ink on paper or pastels, and then it's going to turn into pixels. And for me, when I, when I connect to racism in America, I'm connecting to a nexus of the best of everything I've heard about seen thought about, etc. It has to do with racism in America. And it's an ever improving evolving zone. One of the one of the interesting lessons I learned from using this brain thing. One of the, one of my fears was that there would be these dark forest parts of my brain, that there would be untouchable areas that were large and were kind of like the zone you don't want to go into because there are dragons there or gangsters. And it turns out that there are some less organized parts in my brain, but there's sort of no part that's dysfunctional after 22 plus years. And a tiny bit of that is because I'm a little anal retentive about the brain, which I'm not about the rest of my life, which is kind of interesting. But a piece of that also is that this is a sort of constantly gardening thing. The analogy I use is that I'm like a leaf cutter ant. And do you all know how leaf cutter ants live, like leaf cutter ants, leaf cutter ants don't eat leaves, which is like, okay, so why are they in the trees all day cutting pieces of leaves and taking them into the nest. Well, leaf cutter ants carry all these leaves into the nest where they hand them to sort of the farmer ants, the other, the other class of ant that's sitting at a fungus. And there is a large fungus that is symbiotic to all these ants and termites that sits underground in their nest, and these other ants mulch up the leaves, and with their spit put the leaves basically on the fungus to feed it. The fungus metabolizes the leaf, the leaf spit, and oozes a nectar that all the ants eat. So, by taking care of the fungus by curating this common good, this common artifact, everybody in the nest everybody in the tribe basically gets to eat. And it gets really, really, really interesting and detailed when you get into the details. For example, the ants that are right at the, at the coal face, so to speak, tending the fungus have white powder on their thorax and body. That white powder is a bacterium that is a disinfectant for the fungus, so that the fungus won't catch a disease from other bacteria that are not so not so friendly to it, etc, etc. So, so there's all kinds of really interesting dynamics going on in this ecosystem and, and for Open Global Mind, we've been borrowing some ecosystem metaphors to try to explain what this is. So, so Open Global Mind is not an attempt to build the next Facebook that happens to be open. You know, I watched diaspora come and go and there's been lots of efforts to do that. There's a bunch of things that this sort of isn't. What we're trying to do is create a container within which we could bring highly functional projects that already exist in the world that aren't connected to other things we think they might want to connect to. Try to define a connective architecture so that these things can be used together so that when I'm using something like the brain in the future, and someone else is using something like Kumu in the future and someone else is using mind manager in the future. Those things could actually sort of talk to each other and be used together to visualize something important and tell a story or do some analysis, and that they could do so on top of shared open link data. There's like a low level architecture part of this project that's beyond my pay grid because I'm not an information architect. That is, how do we manage curate and share data in a way so that it's credible so that it's linked so that sorry what's her name Nora Bateson Nora Bateson has a concept called warm data, which is contextualized data data that carries context which is really interesting to me. And then. There's this low level layer of data architecture trustworthy data architecture that's distributed that doesn't that includes issues like you own your own data, how do we make it so that, you know, someone company can't corral and then sell off all of our private data, etc, etc. And then there's this middle layer of what are the tools for analysis visualization storytelling that makes sense to use build and to try to make them as open as humanly possible, so that we can extend them riff on them play with them and try to figure out how to make them as models so that companies that make them people that use them can make make a living in some way without locking too much away at all. Sort of, you know, a little bit like open source software has found that you can have a common base of code and then you can customize you can adapt you can teach you can do whatever on top of that shared code base so maybe we borrow models like that. And then at the higher in my in my head at the higher levels here. And one of my beliefs that membership and emotion. Trump reason, most of the time, and that's a thought in my brain I can show you, but but my belief is that, hey, I could create the world's most compelling visualization I could, I could have impeccable logic about some point I'm trying to make to convince somebody to do something. And if believing me means leaving their tribe and being ostracized by the people in their community or the people they've been with for a long time. They will happily overlook logic in order to stay members of that tribe. And I think we all do this I think that we all have our belief systems and our faith systems and, and we sort of sacrifice working together around facts in order to be members and and also we follow emotions faster than the most thing else. So the top layer of open global mind is about dialogue, the liberation discourse bridging the cultural divide, trying to open that door to talk to people who are who are our others with a capital O. And one of my heroes or my role models are Daryl Davis and Dia Khan. Daryl Davis is a black jazz pianist who has made friends with KKK members and has a garage full of KKK robes, because through insane patients and open heartedness. He's just visiting and going and going to KKK rallies. This man has has convinced people he asked them how can you hate me if you don't even know me. And he's had a whole bunch of people including grand dragons, basically leave the KKK, which I think is brilliant and there's a there's a really lovely documentary about Daryl. And then there's two younger black men at the end of the documentary who are really criticizing him saying what you're doing is worthless. And I don't think what he's doing is worthless. I don't think what he's doing is essential. Dia Khan is a Pakistani woman who went to London where she was still sort of persecuted came to the US and went right into the lion's den she basically took a camera and maybe a sound person I don't know. And visited white supremacists and neo Nazis in their homes and clubhouses and shooting ranges. And she asks them hard, hard questions unflinchingly she's just looking at them asking questions, and you can see them sort of melt and change a little bit. And some several of them leave those movements so so partly. And I'm really aware of where I'm coming into this from what point of view. I'm also really aware that there's a titanic battle over the scripts in our heads. So, so kind of behind open global mind is the realization and the fear that the one of the battles that's mattered most overall humankind is what are our belief systems because from those belief systems we design we architect our social systems are ruling systems are governance systems are justice systems everything else. So we have a retributive justice system right now. And one of the things that that black lives matter and all the protests in the streets have bubbled to the surface is something I'm a huge fan of called restorative justice, among many other things among you know defund the police changing policing and all that. So, so how do we have important conversations like those which are timely, I think, like I call this period the meltdown so I'm writing a piece that says you know trust lockdown and the meltdown because right as we thought we were coming out of lockdown. So terrible racial incidents with police happened and suddenly the streets were full of an energy that's always been there because we've been suppressing it successfully over time. And suddenly that was an important conversation. How might we be helpful in that in those many different conversations because there's there's not one conversation as a whole bucket of them. Long intro, let me pause for a second and see what how this sits in your heads what you think. Michael points out that there are no people of color in this conversation which I completely agree with and understand. We've had participation from a few people who are not quite. And at this moment as I said sent out of the invitation is pretty understandable to me that that this may not be the moment for for people. You know, VIP or see people to participate in something that sounds maybe abstract maybe software maybe geeky. And one of the things I would love to challenge all of us to do is to invite each of us, one or more people who are not like us into this and I think that's going to be difficult but for patient and persistent and and have sort of good will and doing so and do so for the right reasons which I'm happy to have changed and challenged in question. I think we need to do that I think that's urgently important for what we're doing so thank you for saying that in the chat Michael. I'm caught up with and Michael's asking what if our belief systems are flawed I'm going to I'm going to address a couple of the questions in the chat because they're really good. So one of the things that I have. And I may be completely off on this but let me show you because one of the things that I have in my brain that I can easily share out that is openly visible for anybody who visits my brain at Jerry's brain calm is an area that I call my belief snapshot. And I wish more people publish their belief snapshot in any tool with any mechanism they wanted to I wish more people did this. And I know that mine is a thicket of thoughts I know that this is too complicated so I'm going to apologize right now for the density of this but I can explain it. Right I can I can kind of walk through it. So I have a whole thought that people are. Let's see. In fact I have to have to find where some of these things are. So one of my core beliefs is that humans are born into this world. Good. We're born fully connected to the universe we're born wanting to figure out what our role in life is we're not born. And it's a perfectly legitimate position to hold that people are born bad and some famous people like Calvin, Martin Luther, Siggy Freud, I think Stephen Pinker, Thomas Hobbes come from the notion that there's original sin or that people are just born bad and therefore need to be controlled and you can see immediately that this turns into control structures and societies this turns into how we design our justice system what we do, etc. So for me, people are born good we've socialized the heck out of them so we've kind of destroyed that. And I notice here that that thought is not connected to this thought so oops I've got to go do that when we when we hang up. I've got to come back in here because a whole series of thoughts about socialization and its effects on society. And one of my beliefs is that our systems of socialization are basically really screwing us up. And my, my favorite example for that is a song from the musical South Pacific. It's a lovely little song called you've got to be carefully taught and South Pacific is about racism. And the song basically says we are not born racists we are made racists. We are taught that by our families our cultures our religions whoever else it is. And I, I, that's one of my beliefs I agree with that entirely. Jessica rabbit did put it very, very beautifully in who frame Roger rabbit she said I'm not bad I'm just drawn that way. Thanks Howard. So now let me hit pause and while I'm sort of growing back up anybody who feels like it jumped in. What does this do for you say for you, etc. I just, yeah, something kind of quick and a little bit messy us, but just in terms of the whiteness term and question or sort of labeling it came up last week to you know speaking as someone who certainly benefited since my birth from the color of my skin, but also being in a so called minority tribe. Jews, Judaism, you know, and all of the racism and hatred brought to bear on on that tribe. It's complicated. And, you know, I don't want to offer any particular comment on the label of blackness and black rise matter because that's an entirely other issue it's related but it's, it's complicated. And so I just think here in this space, in particular, as a starting point to just say there's no white. There's no, there's no people of color in the room. Okay, that's that's useful but to say we're all white. Well that's not so useful. Thanks. Thanks Charles I appreciate it. Judy. I was just going to offer a book the origin of others by Tony Morrison. It's a series of three lectures on systematic creation of otherness carried through literature in particular but yeah, probably speaking. I thought the short read because it's 129 pages, and it took me 10 hours because I kept stopping to think. It's part of her Charles Elliott Norton lectures. Right. Yes. Thank you and I have not read them so I'm going to add that to my list or get a kindler or whatever. The other one that's going around here right now is white fragility. There's a long and growing list of readings that are appropriate to the moment. And I'm, I'm extremely interested in how I can apply my life energies to be useful in this moment. And it so happens I have these weird power tools at hand like the brain. And I love recording screencasts and doing all those sorts of things around it. And I'm puzzled why more people don't have their hair on fire that we lack a collective memory or a comparable collective memory, meaning OGM is not Wikipedia because in Wikipedia, there's this notion of neutral point of view which because Wikipedia supposed to be like an encyclopedia the community came up with a whole series of norms and working principles. One of which was each page should look like an encyclopedia which means it needs to be it needs to not express an opinion, even though it can mention the different points of view in part you know there's usually a criticism section or whatever. It's cool, except I think that the opinions and points of view are incredibly important and the more we can articulate our points of view, and the supporting evidence or even just the lack of logic but why we believe this. The more permeable we can become to each other the more we can understand each other, and I may be wrong about this, maybe totally off base on this but that's one of my beliefs is that, is that by being a little bit more explicit and by softening ourselves up and entering into a place where we can actually converse with each other. We can make progress on this whatever and progress is one of these weird words right like trust it's a it's one of these words we don't really understand we use it all the time. Like innovation, everybody seems to love innovation, I have a whole speech I've given on dark innovations, how many innovations have been really bad for us. So let me pause and see who else would like to jump in the conversation. I was just thinking of what this reminds me of is a dilemma in my life or much, much earlier, which was. I'll just say this, I was, I was born a men and I brought up in a men and I community, very closed community, and, and have some of the same same experiences on a smaller scale that the Jewish community has the. And we went to, we went to do service, my, my first husband and I, because he was drafted and it was, had been great deal of work had gone into be able to become legally a conscientious objector. I got men and I said gotten their, their services the men and I central committee in particular, which was a relief organization. I'm not going to go into any more detail. The point was that. So went to went off to study French and go off to the Congo and you know, teach English, which seemed like a better thing than being a missionary. And it's that distinction that I want to come to it. It was a, on the day that we left, and we were driving out. And it was driving out the children were throwing rocks at the car. And we had had such a dreadful unbelievable experience with. And his trip to China and what he had come back to try to do in the country. It was very painful and I left thinking, you know, I think this business of trying to do good and all of the rest of that. I have no idea how you're supposed to do it. I'm going to stop with this. I'm going to try to do something else, which was in that case, I entered linguistics and I thought why don't I work on their languages and let everybody know that they're full and complete and wonderful and everything else. And that was not a mission for me, but it was something I did. Okay, so my question is, so I feel myself coming here and yes, and yes, we're all white. And, and how you know I'm looking for ways to sort of navigate that and so Jerry when you said at the beginning. You know what is it that we can and should do. That remains my question. And it doesn't have to be that for this group, because just because we're all white but I think we, we need to have that conversation among us as well. And two things that are also my beliefs that I haven't done enough about. And the first one came to me when me too was happening when me too was huge on the public sphere. And that was that, that me too is men's issue. It's not women are the victims. It's a men's issue. And, and now I think that black lives matter is non black people's issue that that that. And I was just I'm trying to remember which of the many things I saw in the last couple weeks but what but basically it was about change and it said, the thing that's most likely to change somebody is someone who's like 95% of similar opinion to you. You're going to have a hard time listening to somebody with whom you share 10% of worldview. They're unlikely, not impossible, but they're unlikely to convince you of something or the cab you shift and go over someplace else, but somebody who's pretty close to you might actually get you sort of to go over and try something or believe something a little bit different. That's really interesting to me. So, I happen to have the probably naive belief that most of my friends and friendships are not racist. I, I, I have a visceral reaction to racism. I don't like it. I object to it. I don't befriend people like that. I have not actively gone to find people like that and try to do anything. But I think that there's an edge to my friendship circle where there's probably clearly very likely people who have racist tendencies, and I we probably overlap a whole bunch and I'm what is the thing that I can do to have a conversation that they will listen to because there's probably a lot of those people. That's probably a large circle. Right. And so, and so how between articulation logic and visualization and sitting down for dinner together and being patient and having conversations and everything, all the variance in between. What could I engage in that might make those people permeable to considering other ways of seeing other humans on earth, etc, etc. And I'm applying here my own worldview and judgment and all that but but for me it feels like if I can focus on that that margin and be helpful and be like Darryl Davis and the icon I might actually be really helpful in that way. And that's my current understanding of my intention on that particular thing. Yeah, just checking in if I could. Thanks everybody. My first time here I'm don't know who knows who and who knows how much history was I was taking notes on what you're talking about the open global brain so I'm just checking in. Is this a generic discussion about how you might use your curated weird artifact of 22 years of building in a universal sense, or is this more specifically about the examples you've given around racial neo Nazi black lives matter type issues, because the two element of this interacts with every interaction we have climate change denialism ecological collapse denialism etc. Are you looking at a source of truth and accessibility of information that can be shared by people that hold this capacity to communicate across world views, or are you looking to specifically address issues associated with current crises in America and rippling worldwide around black lives matter, which we know of course are all interconnected or I'm just trying to work out where are we in this picture because I'm a newbie. Thank you and and I didn't do a check in round I would go straight into conversation we might want to sort of hit pause for a second and just get to know each other so I appreciate that as well meal. And the starting place for this OGM conversation is issues that are hot on the table right now like the ones we've just been talking about, and the weird fact that I have this 22 plus year old artifact, you know, using the software that I did not create called the brain, which I have no control over, which is a little geeky and weird. That's just the starting point. I'd be extremely happy. If OGM included corporations trying to make better decisions about how to be good citizens or, you know, like any kind of collective decision making you can think of for me fits nicely within the realm or range of what OGM is. These are just things that are presenting themselves that are, I will call them juicy, because they have energy they have heat they have meaning for a lot of people that give us, they can help align us around purpose. And then, and then I'll say, I think this also is not a mission to articulate and present this particular humanist leftist progressivist point of view I don't know even what to label it because those labels are dangerous. I'm equally interested in taking people who have opposing points of view to mind and helping them articulate their point of view. Because in my naive belief that exposing these things and making them more explicit softens us and makes it easier to figure out why we think what we think. I think that their articulation of why white people ought to own the country kind of thing might actually lead us toward resolution on those issues in different ways. I'm fearful, but I, you know, there are Jordan Peterson might be attracted to use open global mind to articulate some of his strange thoughts. And Jordan Peterson is one of these really interesting characters because he's totally he's attracting a fringe of my friends. And I found there's a there's a trans woman blogger Natalie win who blog who blogs as contra points, who has a beautiful takedown of Jordan Peterson which I've sort of put in my brain etc etc. And I want to have that conversation. Like I like that to me as an opening for going to some deeper place and one of my frustrations is that the news the entire news media is scalloping along the surface of issues all the time every day. An eight minute news story in the local news is a really really like eight minutes. Oh my God out of our half hour. That's forever we don't do that. And in eight minutes they have to introduce the subject describe what's going on and then have a cute hook at the end and it's like stupid. Right. And, and when we do governance, we have to create a committee and then go send out some research to do something and then come back and get citizens together for only 90 days. To talk about some issue like land use planning or, you know, aquifers or whatever, and then they all go with they sort of melt back into the public. When, you know, one day long ago. I remember listening to Jimmy Wales give a speech about Wikipedia, and rot singer had just been confirmed as the new Pope Benedict. And Jimmy was telling the story that he had gotten a whole bunch of congratulatory emails from journalists afterwards saying I can't believe how quickly Wikipedia had a fantastic page on the new pope. And he's sitting there talking to us and he laughs and he says like, we, we had a page on every one of the bishops. Like, we, so what somebody did when the white smoke went up was they went to rot singers page they changed the paragraph they renamed the page and she being Shaboom had a great page on new pope Benedict. And, and I was like, why are we busy reinventing and throwing everything away. When we could use it and improve it the way the way that good soil improves when you do natural farming soil is better for every turn, it gets healthier. As opposed to being depleted when you use industrial farming, the way the ants that do a good job tending the fungus in their in their warren and their nest, have more and more nutrition and have a healthier tribe. So, couldn't we collaborate on these sorts of things, including opening the window to potential bad actors and figuring out how to manage that. Without designing in stupid constraints that basically killer our ability to converse and to think out loud and to have to step into a place that feels a little bit safe. Even the term safe zones has been politicized and turned around so it's really like the moment is right for something like this. Thank you, Neil. Thank you for for those questions are perfect. Anybody else dendritic openness is great. Judy you love dendrites and, and, and, and me too. And I love that the thing is called the brain. I also love high faith which are sort of the leading edge of my CEO networks that called high faith a little little tendrils that reach out toward each other and make those connections. I thought I was having when I do love the word dendritic is one of my most favorite words, but particularly in terms of the dialogue that needs to occur. If every person that we touch is influenced in some minimal way by our openness to their point of view. And that's part of my belief system also believes people are basically good, you know, and that we are a product of many different things that have created who we have become. And I remember in the old days of diversity, part of the teaching that reached people was visual diversity is the biggest tiniest tip of the iceberg of diversity. It's underneath which all of the things that have to do with family geography, sportiness, whatever reside and many of those are underwater, because no one talks about them, because they're tender, if you will. And so, if we want a community that's more connected, then some sort of firm commitment to genuineness and openness is I believe the place to start. But how to do that on a big scale I don't know. Yeah me me too. That's why this thing is called open global mind by the way. It's very much about being open minded whatever the heck that means, right. And I think we'll we'll have governance issues at some if we succeed we're going to have a whole bunch of governance troubles. There's a whole, a whole lot of material I can go into there but you reminded me to bring in this notion of design from trust because my own journey of the last 25 years started 25 years ago when I was a tech industry trends analyst and realized I didn't have the word consumer. And the word consumer led me to understand that we've consumerized every sector of human activity not just consumer goods, but our electoral system the election we're in right now as a consumer mass marketing exercise where the candidates want a lot of money to pour into media to advertise to us, you know to use consumer mass marketing, this is not really governance, right. And every every sector of human activity turned into consumer mass marketing. I realize that we have basically been creating all these breaches of trust that we had institutionalized we poured concrete around not trusting humans. And so one of my naive beliefs is that when people have a little experience of this thing I call design from trust. First it feels really weird so I wrote a piece I can post here. If you go to design from trust calm you'll find two essays at the top. One of them is you love design from trust you just don't know it yet. And the second one is the two oh shits. I'll give away the store. The story here. The two oh shits are when people hit a system that's designed from trust like Wikipedia is excuse me once. When people hit a system that's designed from trust like Wikipedia, when and almost everybody's had this experience of thinking about well how does this work. I say, do you remember that feeling you had the moment you realized how Wikipedia works not that oh great here's an encyclopedia but oh wait, any idiot on earth can change any page on this thing, what. Probably like your sprinkler tighten you got a little tightening in your throat, like people have this oh shit reaction this is impossible. Right, a lot of people have that that's a very natural reaction. And to me that's evidence of how deeply are down the rabbit hole of not trusting humans. Then maybe you stayed with it and you went and looked into the Wikipedia in an area that you know a lot about. And you might have had a second oh shit reaction which is oh shit, this seems to be working. My amateur theory is that if you have that little taste of, oh wow that worked and it was really different from the norms from the things I'm used to from the things that seem to just have taken over the world, you will look for more of them. But we don't know what else is like that we don't. Excuse me we don't have a thesis to tell us where to look and what it is that that was interesting about this so anybody who's done an open space meeting a self organizing meeting. That's another example of design from trust, and people are completely freaked out by open space meetings I've facilitated many Nancy as a world class facilitator of all sorts of processes and so forth. But hosts hosts who are bringing me in to facilitate an open space meeting all the time have the reaction. Yes, but what if nobody stands up and says I think we should talk about this. And shouldn't we plant some of those like shouldn't we have some people prepared with great great topics I'm like, it's nice. Like just just trust this process because people wake up and the right issues can show up in the room. If you make room for them and if you trust the humans involved. So my own, my belief is that this is a contagious act that being open as Judy said we can be here. Picking from the best of practices in the world tribal practices open source community practices governance practices from countries whatever I mean that there's just this. We're very sort of xenophobic in the US we think we're the greatest best country there's ever been. And so we don't look around a lot. And there's a whole bunch of people done a whole bunch of good work around the world that that's completely remixable. So I would love OGM to look around and as we're busy trying to figure out what this container is and how we run it and what it does. And I'd love it to host commercial ventures I'd love people to be able to make a living, living inside of OGM. It's going to be fabulous. And I can explain one, a couple ideas like that that I have in mind but, but I think. Yes Nancy's writing that that's an interesting side thread on saying trust the process and the black lives matter movement by the way, which is what I love about the moment is that it's causing us to question. There's a whole bunch of things that I've been pointing to for a long time as designed for mistrust. So policing, for example, policing is a gigantic raw expensive terrifying issue. And right now the conversation in the public sphere is one that I've been trying to figure out how do you provoke this how do you get people to start looking at restorative justice at community policing at trust, you know, and all of those are alternative methods that are designed from trust. Where the assumption is that people are acting in good faith, and that the exception is people who are genuinely evil and who are trying to destroy the system, who exists, who exists, but who would like to jump in. I can. I just want to note, it's a little bit like a fire hose this morning. There's so many things flying by here and I want to jump on that I want to jump to this and it's like, so I'm not quite sure where I'm going to go here but I want to back up to your mentioning James queer and that you can convince somebody who's close to you. But if you want to talk to someone who's really far apart, the best way to do that is to give them a book and let them in their privacy their own minds or own their own space to absorb new ideas that are really threatening to their to their identity. And few years ago after Ferguson, a couple of friends and I African American friends and I, we put on a two day workshop around listening to race, we chose that the phrase listening, because we don't feel people are listening about race, especially white people. Most of us can't stay in our bodies. As soon as we're accused of being privileged. All the hormones start flowing and we either leave the room or we just leave our body and we go into reactive mind. And so reason was a two day workshop was the first day was simply tuning into the body and finding out what happens when you get up and how can you recognize the early warning signs and then shift your breathing your something to lower that and go, Oh, I'm just being triggered here. I'm going to be triggered by anything right so if I can be aware of that in my body then I can start to control and I can recognize the when things come up and people say something. It's not about me personally it's about who I represent in a system, right. And we ran this thing for about four times and it was really incredible we had people in tears, you know the trust part was we put people in groups of three. And we treat racism like trauma. And in trauma, you can be traumatized when you are perpetrator of trauma, you can get traumatized when you're the victim of trauma and you get traumatized when you're the witness of trauma. We frame racism as trauma in that way and all of us have been traumatized by racism. And what we did to put people in groups of three and have them tell stories of when is a time when you were traumatized by racism, as either the recipient of it or the perpetrator or the victim of trauma. And in that listening, there was time after the person it was after the first one, the other two people could only name what went on in their bodies or their emotions. You know, oh my God, my stomach just quenched when I heard that or I felt this rage come up right. They couldn't comment on the on the actual content that was just what's going on for me, again anchoring back into the body. And we had to stop after after four go rounds because we realized we'd run through all the people that we knew that we felt were trustworthy to come in and we didn't want to open up to the public because we couldn't guarantee physical safety for some people coming in right. So, one of the, my friend Dan Woods, who's a wonderful woman who has done a lot of work to African American she says, I'm black I'm lesbian and left handed the whole world's been against me from day one right. And she said, you know, one of the things you can do. You don't have to go out and try and convince a KKK person to convert. But when your uncle tells that racist joke just say, you know what, that's not okay. I'm not going to repeat that joke and I don't appreciate when you repeat that joke. That's kind of moving to the where do you have connection with people who are exhibiting racist tendencies. And a lot of people at family events. Oh, I don't want to, I don't want to stir up Uncle Joe, be ready to stir up Uncle Joe, you know, just stand up and say, Hey, that's not okay, I don't want to do that. And I don't think, you know, you're better than that. That's what I love. She says, you're better than that. Don't denigrate them say, call them to a higher, higher standard. So I wanted to thank you for grandma's hands Charles I just saw that flash up. I just want to throw that out as one of the things I like to see in open, open global mind is sort of a mind body map of where are the things in open global mind that you're really attracted to your body goes, Oh, I love that a lot. And one of the things that make you go, I'm not sure. And one of the things make you go, Oh my God, I want to run away from this. So we can start to map the somatic intelligence and the emotional intelligence into the under the ideas map. So I just sort of throw that out there as a, you know, whatever that's worth. That's fabulous. And I completely agree with the fire hose and I apologize for that because all right, that that sometimes is my, I'm sometimes really good at just listening and tracking your conversation and managing other people talking. But here I feel like I'm trying to paint and tiny little little paint brushes with tiny little strokes, a pretty complicated way to ambitious vessel container thing movement. I don't know what it is. Maybe religion that has a whole bunch of origins has a whole bunch of purposes might be just too complicated to try to do. And yet I'm like, I'd love to I'd love to be able to do that. So my apologies on the fire hose to you in the booth, Judy. I just had a question and this is maybe a stupid idea. But given what we're trying to do, would there be a way to use the brain to actually create a separate sub brain on one global mind and let everybody post all of their thoughts about different dimensions and and just let one GM dendritically grow rapidly in that mode. The complexity is we don't get to hear each other and I love hearing other people's point of view directly. But I'm also looking at a way to populate the content quickly to allow us to pick sub zones, you know, because I might choose to explore more fully can might choose another corner to explore more fully or feel that that's where he can contribute. I always love what you say can about somatic integration and the pausing to let people emotionally respond and notice their own responses, because that's part of that openness piece that we're talking about. So I'm just wondering if that might be an experiment we could conduct that would be helpful. So a couple things. I'm, I'm kind of the only person who's put any thoughts in this particular brain file and the brain is proprietary software and there is a version called team brain. So one possibility is convincing the brain to let us use team brain and to let a bunch of people come in and start doing that. But if we started from scratch, we don't get the benefit of the work I've put into sort of creating all the stuff on OGM and why and where for and, you know, of everything we've mentioned, like 80% of all the things that have come up in the conversation so far partly because I've put them in there are already in my brain. And I'm not sure about grandma's grandma's hands, but I'm going to go check, etc. Right. So, so there's already this rich context. And one of the objectives of OGM is to create an environment where different people can preserve their own perspective on the world, and then remix it and compare and contrast it and then step back to only what they know to be true, what they've got curated or what they what they care about, which the brain does not permit it doesn't, it doesn't really allow for that kind of collaboration. So if we did do a team brain, it'd be a little bit like Wikipedia where we wind up having to agree with what's here what's there or we'd have to figure out some work around where we would name different perspectives differently. I don't know exactly what how we would conquer that. And that that's sort of one set of issues. Another issue is that Oh, sorry, I forgot which which was going on there. Oh, I know. I've been toying with the idea of super distributing my brain. Right. So, so far, I'm the only person who's got anything to my brain. What if I put my brain philosophically into GitHub, or a GitHub equivalent and I allow basically fork and pull on my brain. Now, architecturally, I don't think that'll work with the brain. But let's just imagine that that worked. And for anybody who's who's not familiar with GitHub, GitHub is where open source code has gone mostly these days. And what happens is, you everybody has a repository of their of their code base. Anybody on GitHub can fork, meaning make make a full copy of your code base, they can go take all of your code and go off and play with it. And then if they figure out something better to do in some part of your code, they submit a poll request that's called fork and pull. And they submit to your request that says, Hey, I fixed something over here, would you like to include it in your code base because that way, the central code stays central and everybody gets the benefits from all the different people trying to improve the code is called fork and pull. I would, you know, and people are writing a book, there's a website called git book that uses and pull to author chapters and sections of books, which I find incredibly interesting. We all wanted to do something like that. I would love to do that. Right. So partly my question is, what can we try and then the third thing I'll throw into the mix of trying to answer that great question Judy is, there are other tools like Rome research and I know a couple people developing Rome like things that are much more open, etc, etc. So maybe we use a variety of tools to try to do this and we sort of bring them in and start saying, how do we remix this what do we do but I think, I think part of our problem in this early going of the conversation is, we have a lack of the tool that auto exist. And we need to clue to our way toward it and then we need to somehow maybe motivate people to design towards something we might specify. So some of us, whoever shows up here who are coders might decide to go build a couple little strategic pieces that fit in there. And Charles, thank you for your patience. Over to you. Oh, thanks. Wow, I'm just really glad to be here and I did put a number of things in the chat so you made a reference or others. A few times today already to Wikipedia. I put in the chat, you'll find links for an amazing guy I just came to know, actually a week and a half ago called Pete Forsythe, who I think really would be glad to join us. He belongs here in my view, wiki strategies is his company he's an advisor consultant around Wikipedia but he's got really deep deep insight and learnings also having been in wiki media foundation for a couple years, a number of years and has a deep social justice dimension in terms of where he's coming from. And I also put a link for this Afro crowd, which I just heard about to him he's been very involved in that project. For example, and so just to efficiently riff a little bit more in terms of this. What did you call it in terms of the forking. Sorry, I did super distributing your brain and forking the code base and all this. So you, Jerry or others here probably know much more than me about federated wiki but I've been hearing about it and kind of like sniffing around at the doorway of that which is very much about forking in the wiki space. But I think I just, and you know I sort of came came to this idea last week and I wrote a little more in the form and in terms of helping you and us together make your brain actionable in some way. Maybe an interesting thing is actually to. I think very much with with Pete because he's really, you know, compatriot. I'm just sort of getting that into Wikipedia, you know, and or federated wiki so maybe that's enough for me at the moment I have others other things I'll probably have to cut out shortly after the top of the hour but that's that's a bunch of stuff right there. Thanks. That's, that's fabulous. I'm going to go to the word as a friend and lives here in Portland, and there's a whole bunch of groups that I've been tracking for a really long time that have been working on different pieces of this. Unfortunately, a lot of them are composed of white guys so I haven't been, I have intentionally not been inviting them to the early conversations here so that we might cultivate a diverse conversation here. And also, there are a whole bunch of really strong groups that are developing a very particular approach on this whether it's holocracy, or like each of you probably is thinking about oh this is kind of like that but boy that's a big movement. And I'm interested in, how do we, how are we useful to those movements, but I'm not necessarily that interested in making OGM a whole lot holocratic enterprise because that's fraught with a whole bunch of its own complexities, but how can we pick the best of these things go ahead Charles. Just one quick comment. I'm sorry, just to interrupt but on Wikipedia, one of the things that I've been learning or sort of realizing through talking with Pete four sites recently, it's, it's the oldest sort of major significant website like older than all the kind of other major stacks players and so forth and they don't, and it's the only one that doesn't harvest data. And so that's pretty interesting to think about. Of the top 10 websites, it's the only one that doesn't leave cookies and track you and all that kind of stuff. Susan. Can you repeat that website for me. I missed it. With wiki strategies, perhaps. We can strategy start. So when you asking maybe. That doesn't track. Wikipedia is the only one that doesn't track of the top 10 traffic websites. The only one that's not busy tracking us is wikipedia. Susan, go over to you. One of the things that I've been, excuse me, watching go by in the conversation is a couple of things that could be candidates for a high called a basket bushel or something of of principles that would be promote conversation. So one that comes to mind as you were describing for control is reciprocity. And reciprocity is, is, you know, one of those, right. And if, if, if whenever one of these ideas and one of these other platforms comes forward or get we get around to designing or doing anything with what whatever this turns into, we can have a list of I don't know, again a three or four that say do they doesn't have this property. And it doesn't mean that if it doesn't have this property that we don't use it, it's just that it will have to be managed. So I was, I don't know where to put that list. Yes, see. So, I love that. And, and I've been talking about these as sort of buckets. And what I'm interested in is which buckets have interest for you all for for you all who are here in this conversation, and a bucket for example is this course dialogue and how does that work how do we hold that space what where does that go. Another bucket is this architectural layer down down and mentally for me down below where we are where we can create shared data that we can improve instead of each having our own little silo data. Another bucket is how do we build for profit models on top of you know what is our governance structure and how do we make how do we start businesses on here and what does that look like. And I think in this conversation we've probably sort of brushed by a dozen buckets like that. And that was part of what made this feel like the torrent. You know, in the conversation was that was that I was kind of trying to paint some of these buckets quickly. And my goal here is to figure out how do we organize ourselves so that we can find our way into those sub conversations. And then how do we have those rich sub conversations in a way that's brain like or OGM like, meaning that we can annotate it and collect it up and share it back somehow. And then can we have one place and I'm going to start a little simple Google Doc for a while. And that would be as this this collection point that says, Okay, here are the buckets we've got going so far with your kind of sub project. And here's a snapshot of where this this group has gotten to as of this moment, and ask anybody who's off doing side conversations to make sure that that page reflects the current status of that particular groups work. And that would be just a gentle way of trying to stay on the same page and a gentle way of letting newcomers go in and say, Oh, I'm, you know, I don't have a strong point of view but I love getting things done. And I'm calling that a builder. I'd like to go help somebody build something and here's the list of projects. I'm going to go over here and knock on the door and see if I can't help like execute on on what this project looks like that that that's kind of the goal here functionally is is how do how do we organize this It's not loose but has enough handrails on it that people can find their way to those places. And I did want I did want to make this an hour long call I'm happy to stay after I'm used to 90 minute calls I love 90 minute calls but they tend to be too long to listen to later, etc etc. So if you need to boogie at the top of the hour. Awesome. I will stay on for a little, a little while longer. But I just want to first like appreciate everybody for being here and Charles you have something like this and you do have to go. I'll go shortly in a couple minutes but I'm yeah just really resonating. Not just today but in general with the whole thing I've been a little bit profligate on the on the forum but and just to mention I created a telegram group. Without asking I just, you know, I use telegram a lot maybe some of you would appreciate that. I think it'll be useful for sharing things between different groups there and kind of cross pollinating. It's good to me to ask this question about your podcasts sort of slash Jerry's brain conversations in terms of conversations that can be how and when can they be more open in the sense of of inviting people or curating certain people but but also just putting something out there in the form of conversations or do you have something in mind in terms of bridging that effort which you've been doing for quite a while, and this one. Yes, so I'm sort of repurposing everything I've got out there so I've got a vlog series called inside Jerry's brain, which I think I'm going to invite those people, you know, over here and kind of know that there's a series of different places and for GM. We have a little fledgling website which I built on Google sites which I love anybody who wants to help build out the website tell me and I'll give you admin privileges to edit that. We have a LinkedIn group which is current Charles has written the only post on that one. And part of the conversation here is, where do we have which conversation. So, as I see it in my head right now. I've got the, the, the Google group mailing list for open global mind, to me is like the inside conversation for how are we doing this. It's a little bit like this conversation we just had now. And, and we're posting this conversation publicly to YouTube so anybody can come in and watch it later but, but the mailing list is kind of like the inside conversation. For me the LinkedIn group is a more outside facing conversation that isn't about publishing it isn't about posting, but it's it's how do we talk about OGM like principles with anybody who's on LinkedIn, which is it got its own boundaries but but it's a more public conversation about that. I've created a medium channel. So if we wanted to co author articles and post them on medium. There's a channel called open global mind that's just sitting there there's no articles posted to it yet. As soon as I finish trust melt and lock down and melt that I'll probably post it to that. But then I want to write a whole manifesto we kind of piece about what is OGM and what is this thing and post that on that channel. So then the question becomes how many is too much oh and last thought there before I go to Judy is different work groups who are doing different buckets or whatever want to call these things may end up wanting to go on completely different platforms so the geeky platform conversation may happen on Reddit or or substack or or sorry. Stack exchange or someplace where we're technical people congregate and can understand and share code. The telegram group we just started Charles may may find a special purpose for governance conversations or something else. And as long as each of these is feeding back to a central place where we can figure out. To go find the conversation link here. And here's where we are right now. I think that's great. And I think that that the diversity helps us understand how these things all work together and what to do together. Judy go. Apologies for the phone that I forgot to turn off in the background. The question that I'm wondering about is whether at some point we might want to. Just a little bit to an experimental model where we're actually engaging different people and feeding the results of that back into some collection point. Because this ends up being it's much more than a thought exercise in terms of where we want it to go. And so I don't know how to do that but I just wanted to get the thought in the stream of consciousness. So what I'm describing and intending is very much what you just said and so I don't know where the difference is between what you thought I said and what you're saying and I'd love to elaborate on that so that's a great question. Okay. I had to do with actually the dimension of reaching people in terms of their sense of connection are learning from them, developing a common viewpoint and maybe you're going to do that all digitally but I want to be a little bit like a slime mold in the sense that we'll sort of go go colonize and wrap ourselves around another organization invite them in see if there's a symbiotic relationship and sort of move on from there and so I see that one of the groups one of the buckets might be kind of outreach and it's like alright who and I have a long list in my brain it's called OGM neighbor communities is the thought where I keep this. There's basically lots and lots of existing projects on all these different levels and communities like the game be community that Jim rut has nurtured a bit there's like a ton of these. And so, in what order and how do we how do we reach out to them and how do we figure out what might our symbiosis. What is the basis for our symbiosis and doing so, and I think that fits what you're saying. So in that sense, I want to sort of lather rinse repeat on that. Charles. symbiosis interoperability. I think this is this is all great and really rich and so just to kind of go back before I have to duck out on to the conversation question. And thank you for really that amazing list that you basically just laid out for us and and just a reminder to self and anyone who wants to get involved in the authorizing process or any other sort of useful transcription of all of these and kind of sense making but I think, you know, I didn't write down the whole list just now but I think it's all there. For example, now those are, let's call him asynchronous and more, you know, text based conversations. I'm actually was didn't specify I was referring more to synchronous. I mean recorded so asynchronous after the fact but you know live, you know, people to people conversations like here now. Like you have, you know, on the Jerry's brain. Conversations, for example, so just just to kind of, you know, because you didn't actually in your list mentioned that aspect of conversation. I didn't hear it. Sorry, I mentioned which aspect. The synchronous person to person in a space in real time. I think that we're going to have a mix where like a project will set up their own schedule of calls. I expect to be like on hopefully and lots of different kinds of conversations that are more that are more targeted around this. And then I'm hoping that everybody records and posts and use the same hashtags or puts them in the same place and we'll sort of figure that out so that someone could come in and go back and look at, you know what happened where and whatever else. I mean, the way Charles, I don't know if you know this but the reason we're using Hank and the collective next zoom room right now and not mine is that their account has a they've said it so that it does automatic transcription of the conversation. So that is being generated we don't need to go to order that is being generated already. And I'll show that out with everybody I did not know that that was even a feature that was possible. That's a feature from zoom itself. I don't understand it. Yes, it's no not shaking her head because I know I know other has an integration but go ahead. It's an integration with order. Yeah. Oh, well how about that. But it's a paid integration somebody order talk about that. I was thinking of an order pun but I was trying to hold back. Why would you hold back puns Nancy. Other things to not just puns, I just want to circle back to something you wrote in your invitation which is how to have conversations with people who aren't aligned because what I'm currently living in rural Skagit County up in Washington state. And I follow to community Facebook pages because I'm situated between two. Well I'm situated actually between three communities. And the speed at which hateful invective is triggered by the smallest thing in a Facebook community page, to me is a fundamental issue that needs immediate attention and love and care. And I am no way equipped to do it. Based on my current life circumstance but want to support it. And that to me, you know, it's like having having a meal with something or somebody you disagree with I mean that this kind of fundamental finding what we have in common before we deal with what we don't have in common or Ken's you know like how did that feel. Because you know every time I read one of these threads, I am, I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it here first and not here. And I'm seeing it just activate everyone else so for me I think what we could do now that taps into open global mind taps into the need of the moment as an experiment so somebody wrote experiment earlier, and maybe it was you Judith. My brain is now on overload might be a way to both examine. What can we do now. It's a way that is generative and useful and can spread my silly Lee like what is what are the high pay of this process. And it might even generate some of those answers to or some hypotheses or experiments to the questions around structure and governance though. I think I've gotten too old for structure and governance. I think I'll let someone else deal with that I'll just do whatever they say but I'm done with that shit. You can just show up. Because I failed at every attempt I've ever made. And, you know, so that's an ephemeral piece that maybe all is always changing so I would really deeply appreciate something that we could use as a test bed for all the swirling idea because you know I look at, you know there's three pages this right. And how do you do with it and how to each of us somehow pull a thread of it into our own worker context so I'm doing it with you but I'm also doing with it over here. So I'm I'm actually whatever experiment we do. I'm also doing it here because again we're going to have more connections out and then it could give me enough of an anchor to say I'm going to prioritize this and show up, because I love this conversation and how do I prioritize in a time when there's so many opportunities to do something useful. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes completely. So several things. One is I'd love to prioritize and focus on anything that we might do that furthers what you're trying to do so so Nancy if you want help on something that that fits the OGM sort of thing like articulated and say, anybody interested in blank. And then we'll see who shows up and then we'll try to try to make that our activity as well so that so that we're not busy doing some some neutral thing that that's not valuable to somebody in the group. Right. But then second, this group and the people I'm inviting to the conversation on intentionally our network crosses into world class state of the art doers on all the things we're talking about like like we can invite in the best of features on how to reduce online hatred and whatever we know them like like we can knock on their door and say hey would you run a session for us, would you tell us how to shape this or whatever. And I'm really interested in being the meeting ground for the best thinking and the best prototyping and experimenting on all these things, and then trying to create a way where we can feedback what worked and what didn't work and creating loops so that we can actually improve that and put that out in the world and say, hey, you know, we're trying to take a look at online hate, and how things degrade and we suggest these four practices, which we didn't invent by the way there's a group over here that's been doing that for a really long time they invented it, and we just love it. Right. And, and things that we certify by loving them and by by by putting them out forward will hopefully get traction and be useful to more people, but it would be nice if we could become sort of a resource for everybody else doing these the different pieces of work that we're talking about. Does that make sense. Yeah, thanks. Love what you said there Nancy about failing in governance. I tried to develop a United Nations regional center of expertise for education for sustainability in the Murray Darling Basin in Australia so this is an area bigger than some American states. And the, there were three key principles that I come up with and two of them are relevant here one was how do we create receptacles of multiple wisdoms. And mutual respect for Aboriginal community, you know, you know, right the way through to expert. So the mutual respect across those broad streams not just disciplines. Secondly, how do we operate with a level of ethics higher than existing institutions. Right, because the existing institutions are failing and therefore there is no trust. So you don't have governance in the absence of trust. So, the third question that I asked there was, well, two questions. What is it we could do together we can't do alone. And this is, you know, questions we're asking back to the community. And the other one was, what is it we need to become to help you do what you know needs to be done. And the reason I'm mentioning that is that this what you're talking about here strikes me at two levels does the the online community which is an esoteric virtual community where we need to demonstrate by example how to engage people across difference to try and manage the sort of things Nancy was talking about those differences have become dangerous invective and then potentially become violence. Secondly, on the ground, what does a real community look like. And when you go into a real community, you're not dealing with a rarefied atmosphere of self selected people. You're dealing with a geographically co located bunch of people with multiple different worldviews. And so the way in which you hold this receptacle of multiple wisdoms and the way the process is an engagement mechanisms that you use to bring people in will depend about will depend much on whether that's a self selected group. I think it was mentioned earlier, like this group that's been and thank you very much for inviting me in can invited to come together around a common attractor and people that show up to a community meeting to fight the existing authorities. Right. And so how do you get to that point of how do we enable real outcomes on the ground, unless we hold the capability maturity and capacity to engage across difference. My sense from the brief introductions here is we've probably got a couple of spiral wizards here who are able to sense into listening to feel bodily. Where is that individual where is this collective where is the critical energy where where are things moving. What's the next stepping stone I could put in front of people. And so there's going to be different roles for those that have the content, those that have the process and those that can sense the movement direction opportunity risk and navigate landscapes in real time. And I'm really keen to see how a tool like this which is coming to newly, but it has resonance with many things I've tried in the past, you know, it's a source of information content and obviously lovely people. What does that look like applied in a virtual community and a real community. And are they some of the examples that Nancy and others are talking about. Daniel, thank you. That's, that's fabulous and let me let me add a little thing here before I forget it and then go to Judy. I'm a big fan of restorative justice but I'm at a woman a couple years ago, who had come up with something. I think she called it integrative justice and for some strange reason I'm not seeing it in my brain. But she had a critique of restorative justice that was really interesting and her process, which has gotten zero traction as far as I can tell. But her process basically said, you know, in many cases, a situation on the ground is caused by by things in outer layers of institutional design of stupid things that are happening in the system. Her process was attempting to fix the system, which always seems like tilting at windmills to most people because the system is bored and concrete and it's so hard and it won't change. But we're in this really weird moment of flux we're in this moment where things have melted. And I love the difference between elastic and plastic, like like elastic rubber always goes back to its original shape, but something plastic can melt and be reformed and reshaped into something new. So I prefer plastic in that sense because you can reform it. Not all plastics. I'm no petrochemical engineer. But how, how might we continue working? So, so I was a big proponent of RJ for a long time. And then I'm like, Oh, wait, why don't we rethink even that and try to figure out how to make this better. And I think, I think entering a way to intervene with the system at the system level like Donald applying some Donnella Meadows leverage here intelligently could solve a lot of the lower level problems and the reason I came up with design from trust is that my amateur theory is that if we can get people to start designing institution systems, processes, whatever, from an assumption that most people are good actors, and to delay, clamping down on what everybody can do in the way we do to deal with bad actors to delay that as long as possible and to try to make as many bad actors, good actors as possible, that that general principle would help us design institutions in every sector, much better, that that that would be an interesting intervention. So I'd love to have that conversation multiple. And I think that I think that, you know, maybe I don't know what to call it is that the Meadows group or the leverage conversation or the intervention conversation, Neil. Just unmuting. I've been playing with the concept of a systems design alliance and a systems design laboratory. And every country town as a systems design laboratory. Right. My sense, my sense is that every city is going to fail with what's what we know is in the pipeline. However, country towns have geolocated groups of people who have greater binding and greater recognition of mateship or integrative recognition of at least the interdependence on the water system or the energy system or the local economy. And so there's a scale issue here. But there's an opportunity here to say, how do we and I think you were referring to this earlier Jerry, how do we plug in the relevant skills in the relevant places in the communities that welcome us not the ones that forces to go away. So my host communities model is based around finding welcoming communities that recognize the need for change. No, the existing system cannot deliver it and are seeking outside intervention to assist them to co design and co define what needs to be done. And so systems design alliance is one name that I throw in there. But again, depends on whether you're applying it virtually real what scale and where you draw the boundaries depends on how big your slime mold wants to be. I just yeah. I just want to say, I would love OGM to be a Petri dish where we can where we can build out some some systems design laboratories that would be fabulous Susan. I just just want to comment on Neil's list that he just gave there which sounded me a lot like qualifying criteria. I don't want to give us all checklists to the end of the time that I did. I did find a tool go on this story. Originally very compelling and and it's a discipline that Yeah, that we could, you know, I see these collections of things that keep popping up and what the other comment I wanted to make, and then I have to go but the is that Jerry recognize this question, which is why isn't the internet already this. And there are many reasons why it's not I knew the answer to that to start with, but what the one thing that I think now that I think should be preserved is that feeling of of discovery and fun of actually finding something that you didn't know existed and to find things that you do I mean I've I mean it taught me, you know that everything has been thought about the first thing you should think is this is not a new idea who's been thinking about it. You know, where's that gone, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, and that's that's that's a look and feel kind of a thing right so I'm just looking for buckets, I guess, and I just, you know, for the look and feel thing I'd like it to be like it was in the beginning which was As Jeff number so nicely put it like Venice. You'd quite don't quite know where you are you go around the next corner you go oh wow. Yeah. It is lost that because of advertising completely. Yeah, brief answer to your question. The Internet is one of my examples of design from trust and I contrast it with the old phone system with pots the plain old telephone system design. And then originally the Internet shows up and it is wild and will be an open. Excuse me and has a lot of these characteristics we're talking about, and then business discovers it, and then the largest entities on the net now are basically consumer mass marketing platforms that are busy hoovering up our information and selling it off and that's how they make enough money to become the largest entities on earth. And that is actually an issue in public discourse right now. Wow. And, and we had this weird naive idea that if we just like let everybody do everything for free and communicate openly in all these places without solving any of the systemic problems around it that that might play out okay. And it turns out that that's fuel the whole bunch of different things and that we have misunderstandings and that like we're just like we're on training wheels with this this actually we're in the training real stage except our vehicle doesn't have training wheels. Our vehicle is very real is influencing a whole lot of people in a whole lot of things. So any efforts, you know, and I would love to wrap in some of the best of the conversations about this topic that we can find in the world and figure out okay good how do we how do we help that gain traction how do we help that cause change that'd be great. So fabulous question I think there's a big bucket around that I don't know what to what to name it. And just, I have a whole series of projects I've thought of and haven't done much with. For example, I have a placeholder religion at foobarism.com foobar, you know fucked up recognition. For programmers food bar is also a placeholder file name so when you're coding or writing about code you can say like, then there's this file we have to move food bar. And so I just bought the domain foobarism thinking. If you had to invent a new religion, the way that dianetics, you know, Elrond Hubbard basically invents Scientology as a bar bet. You know, makes a bet in a bar that he can invent a religion and get people to adhere to it and boom there you have Scientology. So tongue in cheek. What would a belief system look like that adheres to this conversation. Like what is that. Right. How do we do that. And I don't have much on the website it's nascent but the thing I went around looking at at world sort of guidance systems and I looked at I had a whole riff I have on the 10 commandments. And I'll steal my own thunder here. Nobody knows the set. Try this sometime. Nobody knows the second commandment. Nobody can answer that question properly one in 100 people I've met. Ken does. And the second commandment is no graven images. And you're like, I'm sorry. What does Christianity violate every single day and what is it doing at number two anyway. Number one by the way is I'm your only God there will be no other gods which is licensed to kill people who believe in other gods as far as I can tell. And you know the don't kill don't steal, which are still like, seriously, shouldn't we have more interesting things before don't kill don't steal. Those are 5678. Right. So I went looking around and my favorite one is from tick not Han it's deep listening and loving speech. And the golden rule I think it's misapplied a lot so I'm not crazy about the golden rule. And this is again an interesting conversation over some wine, but as part of this project we playfully fleshed out a mythical religion. And I think it has to be tongue in cheek because anything that takes itself too seriously and claims to be something big is not actually credible in that sense of it. So, so, but that would give us a place to talk philosophically about some of these issues. And Susan Fubar isn't maybe the wrong container for that conversation, or maybe the right one I don't know. But I'm happy to put it in the mix and it's got a little website on Google sites which is super easy to edit and collaboratively edit part of the reason I love using Google groups is that I use Google groups as access control to Google Drive files to Google documents to everything else. And, and so it makes it makes me, you know, admin a tiny bit easier, but, you know, I'm leery of being all in on Google as well. And maybe we discover new and new and more interesting places to be on top of distributed file systems and I don't know what. So anyway, sorry for the long rift. We are nearing the end of 90 minutes, we should probably wrap I just want to go quiet and see if anybody. Peter, thanks for joining the conversation. How's life in Belgium. It's fine with a mixed up calendars. So I don't have seven p.m. our time with seven a.m. your time so I'm so sorry. And I'll make sure that our calendar entries is reliable and so forth. But let me go quiet and see if anybody has anything they'd like to add on our way out Judy. I just had a question. Is this now a regular time, because I had initially a different regular time and was only lucky to find this. My apologies I'm trying to make this a regular time. And the reason it's so early on the left coast is that we have a couple participants who would like to be on from Hong Kong and Singapore and they're not they didn't make this call but but this is a reasonable time for for that part of Asia. So I count on this and I'm going to set up a repeating appointment that we can all kind of use that the complicating factor there is which zoom link should be in the calendar event because zoom is tightening up its requirements and I mean and we're using collective next zoom etc. So that's just a tiny complicating factor. Any other comments on our go ahead Judy. Well the other question I had was that it seemed to me that the action ability of all of this has to do with how we can connect with thought leaders and individuals of different thoughts to develop a collective wisdom. And that might be a topic for much more in depth discussion in terms of what has worked or what experiments we could do. And I mean experiments in the sense of how can we integrate personal experiences and effectiveness and different audiences and different complexities into the system becoming an agent of change. Love that love that. And I was there's a game. Sorry. I didn't even have coffee this morning my throat so coffee. Maybe that's why they call it coffee coffee. So I was on Facebook there's a game B group on Facebook Jim Rudd and a bunch of others. And I'm in there a week ago. I think I said this I think I was in that group an hour before the launch call for OGM. And there was clearly sort of an alt right troll in there who was trolling the group. And they were sort of adapting and partly ignoring and to me it was really interesting to watch that on Facebook groups, you know that set of technologies, how this was affecting the conversation. And that's a really important topic to me is like how how to absorb and how to contain and how to respect. Not just very different points of view, which I think are much easier, but intentional intentional undermining of discourse. And I think we're going to need to figure some of that out for ourselves reasonably early. And that gets complicated really fast. I don't know futures literacy. Thank you to the women for being on the call today because I've been on so many of these calls where there's one woman or no women. And I like to see more diversity here and Neil thanks so much for joining. I know you got dropped in on this and like what the hell is going on here but you made some wonderful contributions and it's good to see you face to face after all this back and forth on Facebook and I want to warn people do not get in a punting contest with Neil because he is a merciless. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're like you're like a sixth Dan black belt punner so you're telling us you're telling us Neil is further up that Neil is we are he's like my match and maybe better he's he just is he real real unless he just you know. Can we close with a Neil pun. On demand punning, you're muted yeah. Punning is opportunistic though so I don't know. Yeah, we've just lost your. You're still muted still muted. Can you unmute everybody Jerry. Sorry, I found it. I wasn't going to drop in a pun but I went to look for a poem so forgive me I got lost in in medium, but I'll drop your poem which I think you'll enjoy. No, it didn't come through. How do I send that to the rest of the group posted in the chat here. Post the form and chat. If you have a URL to the poem or give me one second and I will grab that for you. Neil is also an accomplished photographer and poet. Love that. Just a slacker and can is my new publicist. He's good. He's really good. I love this poem. I just posted a poem called on the loose, which is fabulous and is a poem for our times. I read it in the last OGM call. Okay, sorry about taking so long to get here nearly a finger and will it post this time. Yes. So I hope you enjoy this. Fabulous. And I can read it to you if you want. That would be great. That'll take us out. Okay, so here we go. Why do I come here? I come here to masticate to chew things over mate to mate, investigate and cogitate, deliberate and correlate. It's not just words. It's not all lies divergent voices theorize for each new viewer thread provides crucial link pile of lies. It doesn't matter for each surprise or compromise might enlighten or comprise patterns found through group endeavor. A tapestry we weave together divergent views reverberate and separate and feed debate. At times we find which dictate gesticulate sometimes berate and agitate and activate force those that care to correlate and those that don't depostulate and imitate adjudicate. So theorize, differentiate, see each part discern relate, internalize the ones that matter, adopt a stance that does not shatter this fragile space we share together. Let's co-imagine something better. Then ask yourself, why do you come to make a point or steal a run? Sometimes to procrastinate, sometimes more to masturbate, to self-inquire, refine your views, to walk a mile in other's shoes, to find some friends and share the news or through trust make colleagues new. Beyond debate, we correlate, converging minds we integrate. We codify our language better. We co-design, make things that matter. Through dialogue we realize and synthesize and crystallize divergent bits of different size, include the truths, reveal the lies. Dialogue is circular and sometimes perpendicular as tangent sprout and sidetracks form from me to you to me then on and on and round and round it goes with love, a spiral, not death throws. The words may grow, someone might shout, a song may form, a poem sprout. Actions speak, but words still matter. Most don't work without the latter, so as we forge through stormy weather and navigate our way together, we trust our friends to activate, back us up as mate does mate, continue to communicate and agitate, rejuvenate and strive always to correlate. One thing I ask, my dearest mates, please don't just act. Deliberate for when you do you'll find your way and maybe others with whom to play. It happens each and every day when people gather to have their say. Yay. Well done. Oh my god. Oh my god. Thank you. This is the like the OGM poem. And you've just become the first OGM poet laureate. Well thank you. I've actually been honored this week. I have, I don't have the book in front of me. I've had one poem just recently published in the book of rituals from a sister of mercy in Australia. And I'm the poet, the house poet or poet laureate of an eco psychology education site here in Belgium. And I've been here for six months as of today, I think, or thereabouts. Fabulous. Fabulous. And Peter, Peter Vandora is also in Belgium. So I don't know if you guys have ever met, but your locals. No, well, Peter, yeah, my email address is, I send that through, but we'll catch up sometime Peter and have a chat. So. Sounds great. Everybody. Thank you. You're fabulous. I really wonder where to start the day. Yeah. Thank you for the warm welcome. It's actually a bit late here. I'm going to get my second beer. I'll be right back. Take care, everybody. Have a great day, everybody. Bye.