 I'm going to start by sharing my screen and the One People's Project. Right. Hi, Daryl. My name is Megan O'Rourke, and I'm here in CCTV Center for Median Democracy up in Burlington, Vermont, and we've been having conversations. One of our tenants, one of our mission-driven tenants is to protect free speech. You know, our organization's been around for, we're in our 40th year, and it's one of our founding tenants in community media is providing a space. You know, originally it's around providing a space for marginalized voices. It's about providing a space for voices that may not have another venue. It's providing a space for voices that are outside the norm. And recently we've been struggling with or grappling with or having conversations around what happens when free speech, and I wouldn't say these are new conversations, but they have new implications, and they have, you know, there are people that are new to them that have new information. So tell us a little bit about you. You came to us through a relationship with Marina Brown, and who are you, and what's the project that you're working on, the One People's Project? Well, One People's Project has been around for a little over 20 years, and we're basically an anti-fascist organization. We have, we responded to, our organization was created in response to a white supremacist rally in Morristown, New Jersey. And what we basically are reported journalists. The right likes to call them, likes to call their lives citizen journalists, and that's pretty much what we have been. But we have a little caveat. We also have been in the forefront of just putting anything and everything out there about the various individuals on the right, particularly the racist right to out there so that people can get a complete picture as to what it is and who it is we are dealing with. And we encourage people to do positive things to keep them from being able to function. That will include putting out home addresses and such. That's what we have started out doing. And employments, whatever, because when you're talking about employers, we definitely want to know who's teaching our kids, who is patrolling our streets, who are our politicians, things like that. We want to know who was involved in, say, neo-Nazi activity, for example. But this is what everybody calls it doxing now. And we just, we have always just called it reporting. Yeah, that's how that's how people know us. And we've been pretty effective in that regard. So tell me a little bit more about that when you say how long has this kind of reporting been going on? And why do you feel like it's necessary? Well, it came about because in the late, in the early arts, we were, we noticed that there was a website called the Nuremberg Files. It was a group of anti-abortion activists that, or at least one gentleman by the name of Neil Horsley, who's no longer with us. They had, they were publishing the names of abortion providers. And whenever one of them was murdered by someone from that circle, they would cross their names out as if we did a good thing today. You know, you had a number of abortion providers that will see this website or will see activists walking outside, protesting outside the clinics with their names and address and pictures on their placards. They took it to the Supreme, not Supreme Court, but they took it to court. The court defended their freedom, the freedom of speech of the anti-abortion activists. And our attitude immediately became, well, we're doing this with one hand tied behind our back. If they're allowed to do this kind of activity, then we should. But we wasn't looking to do it in a malicious way. We simply really did want to know, want people to know who was in their neighborhood. And that was, and that was pretty much the gist. And it always has been. So that's where we're coming from. I know a lot of people are concerned about it, but they should be more concerned about the people that we are talking about. It's not a matter of opinion that some folks are out there causing harm. We got to know how to stop them from causing. And that's why we're as aggressive as we are. Yeah, which gets a little bit to the point of like a citizen group is doing this. So let's talk about the example if you have a police officer who is posting racist comments, either blatant racist comments or subtly racist comments, whatever, you know, however you want to put those two terms. We can recognize that it may show an inability to do your job effectively and protect everybody equally under the law. Right. Right. And it's important maybe to show that that person is engaging in those activities. But why is it coming? Why is it being left to citizens to do this in your mind? Why do you think citizens are left to be the ones to do this work? And what's important about that, either as citizens is the and you you call yourself a journalist. Are other journalists or other media outlets doing this work or not? Well, I'll tell you like this. I mean, my vocation is journalism. I am actually a public journalist. Yeah. But I would say when you talk about other media outlets, I think it's because of the media outlets don't do it as aggressively. Don't focus on these particular issues as as aggressively, I should say, as we are. We felt that there was a void. So we definitely decided that we needed to fill that void. It's not to say that you don't have. Media outlets that pursue that pursue issues of, you know, for lack of a better term, domestic terrorism, you know, but there has been often times and I've had discussions with reporters in the past where they will have a story that is about somebody out there that is from the neo fascist right or what have you that has some sort of influence. And the story will get killed because their editor feels that it's not what they're looking for in via the outlet or what have you. It's it's basically giving somebody attention that they don't think deserve it or what have you, whatever reason. Yeah. And that just tends to be frustrating to reporters. So if we have that situation going on and people need to know who these people are and what they are doing, then that's the void that we're for. Yeah. I do not want to discount the fact that you do have outlets that will write about these things, especially now. Really, over the past, ever since the ascension of Donald Trump, there has been a lot more of an effort since the ascension of Donald Trump, and especially after Charlottesville, there has been a lot more attention paid to these elements. And you do see a lot more. Journalists, a lot more media outlets calling it out and and pointing everybody in the direction of some of these characters. But but beforehand, like in nineties or in the early arts or what have you, they were few and far in between and a lot of this stuff that you will find will probably be from, you know, leftist websites, for example. You know, we would be the ones out there basically sounding the alarm. So what's been the impact of some of this work? Do can you talk about that at all? Oh, absolutely. I think, you know, whenever you put information out there like this and people realize that you have these folks working in this kind of capacity that are their neighbors or that or community workers or whatever, they tend to take action. I mean, we've had people fire from their jobs. We had somebody that was fired from Halburton because they was involved with some of this. We've had somebody who was running to be a judge in Connecticut. And their and their husband was someone who had been involved for years. And we knew him before all of this. So we was basically sounding the alarm a week or somebody to basically lose their lose their race, especially considering she was running as a Democrat. We've had we've had some. Unfortunately, there were some folks that even though we would expose them as being involved in this activity, no action was taken. Case in point. And I'm not going to mention any means, but there was someone who who was a contractor, civilian contractor for the military that was based down in Maryland, and he was associated with some nefarious hate groups out there. His role, his role in as a military contractor was making explosives. So that was definitely a concern for us. And we definitely let him let his superiors know that we was doing this story on this particular person. And even though he was suspended for a couple of months, as far as I can tell, he still has his job. But these are the kinds of reasons. These are the reasons why we why we do what we do. We need to let people know where these folks are. So and we haven't and we had an impact. Yeah. So where does this for you intersect with the conversations around free speech? Well, free speech is never a problem. If you guys want to say if somebody wants to say whatever it is they want to say when it comes to this element, it's pretty useful for us. I do not like, however, when free speech is used as a cop out. If I am going to criticize somebody who is about these kinds of activities or who was about this kind of belief system, fascism, in this case, I don't want the response to be that well, he had he or she has their freedom of speech. The response should be what? Well, why am I wrong for criticize your it's not going to be because he or she has their freedom of speech. It's because that person's position is OK for whatever reason. You know, if I hear the first thing that comes out of somebody's mouth that I should not go after them because they have their right to speak. I take that as an attempt to ironically shut me up. Yeah. Yeah. And then I get very angry because now now I just see you as a phony when it comes to championing free speech or whatever. This is not the issue is not about free speech. It really is about what's being said. We already know how to deal with somebody who makes it clear that they are really not about, ironically enough, the rights and freedoms that we all enjoy. Once we start, once we identify somebody as being like that, we're going to respond. We do have that right to respond. So it's that's I mean, one of the things that people say is the way you counter bad speech or the way you counter maybe even hate speech, although hate speech, bad speech kind. I don't know if those are synonymous terms is with more speech. And so it's like it's a little bit of what you're doing. I'm wondering if there's other ways that you see engaging in community to counteract hate speech. Well, so here's the thing about that. And I should say often one of the one of the things that I have been making the point about is that, yes, the best way to fight hate speech is with more speech. But when we use that more speech, the response should not be another another caveat, another way to try to discourage us from engaging. Case in point, best way to fight hate speech with more speech. We use more speech. And then someone immediately responsible, maybe you should just ignore them or maybe both sides should just calm down. It's an attempt to quell the conversation. I've had that a number of times. But I will also say, and this is where things get dicey. It shouldn't, but it gets dicey here. When you start talking about what to do once that once we go past the threshold of free speech, then there comes freedom of association. If I don't like what you were about, I don't want to have anything to do with you and I won't. If I want to tell everybody why I'm not going to have anything to do with you, I will. And if they agree with me and similarly want to avoid such and such a person because of his or her political beliefs, they can do that. That is well within our rights as well. And I say this because I am going to use the example of those who will tell you, for example, if you don't like such and such, if you don't like what you're hearing, if you don't like a certain joke, if you don't like what basically what is being said, just change the channel, just walk away. I mean, like I said before, ignore them when we do that. And when we do that, all of a sudden, complaints about cancel culture come up. Now, that's disgusting. Because I said I was going to mention the name. I said I was going to mention somebody like Bill Maher because Bill Maher does this all the time. He, as far as, in my opinion, is a rabid Islamophobe. And he would always tell you. He always told you in the name of being a free speech champion that if you do not like what we have on this show, just change the channel. People have changed the channel. And that's when you started complaining about cancel culture. No, you cannot have it both ways. I once said on the Dr. Philip, I thought the cancel culture was course correction. I'm not very great from that. It's like you have you have made your choices. You have made your choices. We are making ours. We are basically obliging you. So how do we end up and, Darrell, maybe there's some examples of this because it's as an as you're doing this out of a deep care for your community. But also I imagine some level of self preservation and safety. Yeah. So well, I guess maybe rather than me assuming, why what draws you to this work and why are you doing this work? You know, I think I mean, of course, I'm a black man. I'm going to be concerned about the things that hurt my community, of course. But it goes beyond that. It really is for myself a desire to make things right. I do not like seeing people getting harmed. I really don't. And my approach has always been even when I was a kid that if you are seeing somebody get hurt, the person doing the hurting has to have some sort of come up or at the very least has to be prevented from causing that harm. So there are times when I just feel that there is something that I can do. Like I said, I'm a journalist. They always say the pen is mitered in the sword. My pen is a hell of a sword. Are there things that you see that people are doing out there in the realm of speech in the realm of community building that are that are working to help move conversations forward? And along that same line, are there conversations that are just off the table that just like it is 2022? What is it? Two thousand and twenty three is twenty three twenty three. And we just like we feel like we're going backwards. But yeah, we just don't need to be having that conversation. I think the only reason why I would say that there are some that we don't even we don't need to have the conversation is because we've had it already meant that that would be the only argument I would have in that regard. There are some things that we really don't have to discuss unless you got something new to bring to the table. Now that gets dicey. It does not mean that we can't have the conversation. It just means that what's the point to it? We already know this is bad. We don't have to tell people that murder is wrong, for example. But if you want to have the discussion about why we can't have murder. Then I'm I'm open to it, but I'm going to look at you with side. Yeah, well, except that we do have to. I mean, if you're a pacifist, right? And certainly we have that in a situation where folks, for example, who were pacifists and fought sort of, you know, argued against involvement in World War Two, right? Well, I said, well, let's be fair. I didn't say murder, which means I'm using, which technically I'm using a legal term, which means I am talking about an actual crime. Not a word. I'm not against, I mean, I don't want to say I'm not against killing, but but but to your point. Yeah, it should not be the mission in life to kill. That's my opinion. Having said that, I am also someone who is prepared to defend myself. However, I need to defend myself, which may include deadly force. So, yeah, we can have, like I said, that's a conversation that we can have. But I when I was using that as an example, I was basically trying to say that there are certain things that in this society and within our communities. We have a set then we have said. Saying, establishing this. Yeah, is how our society goes forward. Bar none. I mean, there is no argument against that. We pretty much have a consensus in that. That I mean, maybe, maybe murder might have been a little bit off the chart. But that's where I was going. Yeah, what are other good. Sorry. There are times when we can have we can have a conversation about it. Let's just be real. We can have a conversation about anything. Nothing is off the table, but there are some things that when you when you address it, people are going to feel away. People are going to be like, OK, why is this coming up? Yeah. I guess that's the part where I think, you know, we just had this conversation again with a couple of participants in the studio around free speech. But it felt like the underlying issue is really around transgender rights, transgender visibility, the ability for trans people to feel safe in the community. And I I guess this comes to the point of when people say, well, you're taking away my free speech. And, you know, what do we need to do to engage in the speech that needs to happen? Sometimes I will tell you, I saw that I saw that particular conversation. Yeah. And without getting into it too much, I would just simply say that it speaks to that conversation spoke to a larger issue that I that I have when it comes to people who say that they are championing free speech. A lot of these so-called free speech absolutists or free speech warriors or whatever are really trying to defend the indefensible. Or as I had tried to a little too earlier, trying to get out of an argument that they really don't want to be in. And I don't and that's when it gets that's when I get upset. That goes back to when I was saying, all right, I'm going to explain to you why I don't like what you just said. And the retort should not be while they have their freedom of speech. No, there is a reason why we believe the way we do and it's going to come out regardless of whether or not whether or not you like it. And if you are about something that harms my community, your free speech isn't going to prevent me from being proactive. And no, you do not have to wait until it's a crime committed behind that speech to do something. There are other ways I was talking earlier about cancer culture, for example. The other reason why I thought it was this ingenuous is because there are times when we have seen the argument of free speech come up. And like I said, it's usually used to defend the indefensible. If you're talking about someone who you don't who some of these so-called free speech absolutists disagree with, all of a sudden there's not a discussion about free speech. And if there's a discussion about the particular issue. And if you do bring up the free speech issue, many a times I have had something about yelling fire in a crowd of theater to come up. So I think when we talk about free speech, we have to be honest and we have to be fair. If we find those two things missing, we find those two things missing, you're not dealing with somebody who's a true player in this regard. I mean, one of the things I'm one of the things that I noticed is that those who champion free speech never talk about Colin Kaepernick in that language. Never talk about Jamel Hill in that language. Jamel Hill called Donald Trump a white supremacist. Press then Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that that was a fireball offense. He eventually lost the job. We're talking about the Tennessee three who got expelled for participating in a protest on the on behalf of their constituents. At the Tennessee State House, they were expelled. They eventually were voted back in, but they're still being harassed. And that was a free speech issue. But some of these free speech absolutists said, well, they didn't follow the rules. Yeah, I mean, I think in this case, I mean, I think in this particular instance, I'm guessing that in that program, everybody there would agree that Colin Kaepernick's act is an act of free speech. It's one thing to agree that it was an act of free speech. It's another thing to actually say it very seldom. Yeah, it's interesting that on those grounds. Yeah, in fact, he still he still doesn't have a job. Yeah, still is not. He's still blacklisted from the NFL. Yeah, which comes to the which, which for me, and this is the part that I really struggle with is that I feel like that's where we need to not allow the concept of free speech to be stolen by the right in a way that says, I'm going to say whatever I want to say, whatever I want to say it. And I think there's also something in there about power and free speech that's important to recognize. I mean, we just had a program here on the situation in Palestine. There are many people that would say, oh, you you shouldn't be having that program on your channel, you know, you shouldn't have that program on your channel because Hamas is a bunch of terrorists and they shouldn't be given a voice, right? Mm hmm. When we take away the rights of some, do we not take away the rights of of everyone? How do how do we get past this? Lutus and on a community and like on a really community, not in a not in a theoretical level, like on a community basis. What do we do? Well, say, that's the thing. I mean, the reason why the various people are defended on the grounds of free speech is because defending their speech protects ours. That is the whole concept to all of it. Yeah. And when it is repeatedly being used to undermine our protections, then it's defeating the purpose. You know, I mean, you cannot you cannot tell me to defend that neo-nazi over there. Tell me to defend that neo-nazi speech while you're telling the Palestinian student that they can't have their protest on campus. Yeah, can't do that. You simply cannot do that. And I don't you can sit there and talk about who killed how many people, yada, yada, yada, whatever. I know a lot of neo-nazis that killed a lot of people. And yet those same neo-nazis are able to come up on college campuses and speak or far right wingers even and or those who champion those neo-nazis. So we cannot sit here and play double standards like that. So is there something that the One Peoples Project is advocating for on a community basis? You know, here we are. We sit just as a, you know, in a very simple way, a community media center with a strong heart, you know, deep values and we care about the people in our community. What does a community, what does a community media center do? What does the One Peoples Project offer as concrete things we can do to. We've been doing it for over 20 years, as I said. And I think the most important thing is that information is key. Free speech really does allow us to hear who the problem people are. And it also allows you to let your community and your neighbors know who are the problem people. We, you know, I'm going to use. No, I'm not going to use it yet. There's something that I was going to say, but I think that it's really important to understand that free speech is not meant to be used as a weapon against you. It's supposed to be used as a protection for you. And to that end, as I had said earlier, whenever you hear something that is objectionable, whenever you hear something that doesn't sit well with you, that you are not a party to, that you don't want to be a party to, you don't have to be. I mean, they said it themselves. If you don't like it, you can walk away from it. You can speak out against what you had just heard. You know, you don't have to. You don't even have to give that person a platform. You know, this is where I was going to bring up Rush Limbaugh. As a community media center, we do, quote unquote, have to our policies. Yes, but there's something that is alive. Here's something that you have to. We all have to, not just because you're a community based outlet. But I mean, to quote Rush Limbaugh, he was going after feminists at the time and he was trying to correct themselves when he says you should be silenced. He said, freedom of speech, your right to speak does not mean does not mean your right to be heard. He said that a couple of times on this radio show. Yeah. And really, he's right. Yeah, we don't have to be a party to your nonsense. And we won't be just like you don't have to be a party to anything that I'm about. That's fine. But you can't get angry when. A huge swath of people say later for you. When the huge swath of people just show you the door, that is what it is. If you cannot and you use your freedom of speech to make your argument, if you don't want that to happen. If you cannot make a compelling argument. We're moving on. Help. That's what a community does. You can decide for yourself whether or not you want to have something to do with somebody. You can make you can also tell your community, your neighbors why you don't want to have something to do with somebody. They can either agree or disagree. And everybody can stay away from said problem person. Rally around them. However, it works. That's how I mean that is how it works. No, Daryl, is there because we I'm I'm I don't want to impede on your time. But is there anything more that you want to share about the One Peoples Project? And I can bring up the website if there's anything you want to draw our attention to. I think that the only thing that I would say is that there is a lot of material that we have had out there since we started 20 some odd years ago. I have documentaries like Alt-Right, Age of Rage, where we actually discuss the issue of food speech. Um, there is I've been all over the place over the past some odd years talking to people about how to combat this. This element that we deal with. And I think people can learn a lot from our website at One PeoplesProject.com. We also have a news line called IdaVox.com. It's named after Ida B. Wells. Why is it named after Ida B. Wells? Because she was a woman who started a newspaper to address things that, you know, your mainstream media at the time would not. And in her case, it was the lynchings that were going on in society at the time. And that is what's important. That's how you use your freedom of speech. You go out there and you advocate for not just advocate, but you just make sure people get information the way the way they should. If you go to Ida Vox, you'll see a number of articles, just straight up news articles, not just from us, but from other outlets like Unicorn Ride and It's Going Down, which are other anti-fascist websites. And and you'll and you'll learn a lot, you'll understand a lot. You'll understand more often than not just how much how much is going on out there in the world that you probably don't even know about. And remember, we are subjective. We're not necessarily objective. We just make sure that we have the facts straight whenever we go out there. So when we are dealing with real fashion, we definitely have a sometimes snarky bent against them. So it doesn't even matter if they pass away. We really, really don't care. We just we just simply want people out there to get the information. And and we are very opinionated with that information. So that's what I would just say. People can come to OnePeople'sProject.com or IdaVox.com. And you'll learn a lot. You can always hit me up from those websites so you can understand more. Naryl, this has been informative and I appreciate it. If there's one thing in your work that you just want to underscore about what what you're trying to achieve, what would that be? We need to be the reason why we're called OnePeople'sProject, because in the end we are all one people. We all need to recognize each other as one people. However, unfortunately, there are those out there who want to divide us, who want to polarize us with their hate and their bigotry, which is why our slogan is hate has consequences. Sometimes we do have to keep people from being more than too powerful. You know, we do have to just basically maintain an eternal vigilance against those individuals if we want to have the society that we want. Great. Thank you for joining us and thanks for watching. And the website is there.