 everyone to JSA TV and JSA podcasts, the newsroom for telecom and data center professionals. I'm Barb Mitchell and on behalf of JSA, thank you to all of you who have tuned in today for our JSA virtual roundtable, defining greener data, the power of aligning measurements. So before we begin, just a couple of housekeeping notes, the first 100 registrants today for today's roundtable should have received lunch, hopefully to your door or a gift card to enjoy later. So please enjoy, if you weren't one of those first 100, register early on jsa.net for our monthly roundtables. We wanna hear from you during today's session. We wanna make it interactive. You'll note that there's a chat area in this platform. So please go ahead and put your questions into the chat. Our panelists will try to answer them. If they run out of time, don't forget that at the end of this session, there's an opportunity to network in our networking lounge and you can ask the panelists those questions directly. You can just join one of the virtual roundtable networking areas and reach out to one of the speakers. So let's get started to kick things off. I'd like to pass things over to Mary Allen, Chief Content Officer of Insight as a Service. Mary, over to you. Thanks very much, Barb. So welcome to our audience and to distinguished panelists to this session on sustainability measurement and reporting in the data center. I'd also like to extend a happy International Women's Day greeting to all of you, noting that the representation on our panel today was pure coincidence. So thanks very much for earlier discussions and for your help today panelists. I'd like to introduce Susanna Kass, who's CEO at InfraPrime. Susanna, give a little wave so we know, oh, your names are there, sorry. We also have with us Vicki Warden, who's the CEO at the Green Building Initiative. We have Dean Nelson, who's CEO of Kato Digital and Sean Novak, who's CSO at N-Zero. Thanks very much for your help today, guys. I'd like to kick off with Susanna. Susanna, because you were involved, I wonder if you can set the stage for us in our discussion on sustainability measurement and reporting, what's the origin of science-based targets and how do head of state-level commitments translate to sustainability metrics that operators can use in the data center? Hello, everyone. Thank you, Mary, and thank you for the audience. The speakers today, each of them is a trailblazer in her and his field. So I'm truly excited to actually learn from each of them and also interact with the audience on the topic. So let's get started. Sustainability is actually moving from that hot voluntary to mandatory disclosure now, which I'm very, very encouraged to see about the transparency from all company. In my role as the UN SDG and also a contributor and researcher at the International Governmental Panel for Climate Change is a mouthful, but it's short as IPCC. We have specific measurement index, Mary, in terms of looking at 180 countries across the board. For those of you who is actually interested in the scorecard of what we have done from 2022, please feel free to email to the JSA coordinator. I will continue to provide them live update and also the scorecard for 2022. And you may found that interesting in that regard. I also have provided JSA the link in terms of the metrics that we basically use, which is basically the topic that Mary, you have organized called defining greener data, the power of aligning measurements, but at the head of the state level. So let me dive into it. Financial regulator, including the SEC, currently now has embedded climate in a corporate reporting framework in a more harmonious way than I would say the government agency does it in a more insertion way that's sending very strong signal from my compliance. So Mary, I'm not a big fan of the government agency in terms of doing compliance. I am more about the carrot in terms of the incentive. So larger companies, no doubt, are leading the way in disclosure, showing the importance of setting example for other companies to follow. And we have a few panelists today, speakers, who are very good about solving the immediacy problem about data collection analysis and where you are today in terms of the baseline. So that's really important. One of the key thing I like to share with the audience is something that you may not think about is how personally your diet has actually will affect the environmental performance index. Food, agricultural and forest product companies are the least in terms of defining their transparency. And we need them because they're resilient in their strategy. So I myself, after I read a lot of the data, have converted into a plan-based diet because of the interrelated issues relating to that. Data center is actually doing a pretty good job in terms of leading the sector in measurement and reporting, Mary. But the reporting and measurement is not about just staring at the numbers or the quantitative or the qualitative value. It's really about defining a climate scenario. And what I'd like to suggest is my work with the head of state comprises of four. Number one, create a list of risks and opportunity. And for my level, we work at the head of state. Number two, we're built on the risk, previous risk materiality assessment work for each of the country using the index. And if some of us can, if you can show the link to the audience right now, I think that would be great because you look at that as a very comprehensive way of re-looking at the environmental performance index to look at ecosystem vitality. And the objective of this all is not to say where are you in the rank, is for you to develop your own climate transition scenario that are relevant and specific to the country and that equate to the companies and that equate to the speakers at today's panel that they are doing work to genuinely help companies in a global scale, not just the data center operation. However, that is a wonderful place to start because you have a lot of expertise there. So we'll be able to leverage the EPI in few choices. Are you using renewable energy per kilowatt hour consumed versus fossil fuel? Or are you using synthetic instrument to offset per annum? So these are some of the example that we basically take a look at and greenhouse gas emission is important, but we don't just look at CO2, Mary. We look at, as you look at the illustration, many different aspects of it because it does affect the ecosystem vitality. Last but not least, as a XCOO for eBay International, authoring the handbook for the service for what we call the SOP, which is a service operating procedure. I felt like it is time for us to rewrite it with accountability and relevance to the environment, the society that affect the health index instead of having a fence thinking attitude towards we just doing the SOP to keep up the uptime. It requires a systematic change. It's a summary of what I was saying. That to you, Mary. Thank you very much, Susanna, for that really broad background. Vicki, I wonder if we could bring it down a little closer to the data center operator level. So, we've talked about sustainability management for operators as being more of a journey than a destination. Can you speak a little more specifically about how metrics can be used at different stages in that journey? So, there's baseline and road mapping and also certification. Yeah, thanks, Mary. And Susanna did a great job of talking about the global environmental objectives and what we do at the Green Building Initiative is really dwell at that baseline and how do we make a difference with each and every individual building? And so, while we tie those to global environmental objectives, we really do write road maps like through Green Globe certification and our tool sets to help people determine what exactly they wanna measure. So, on that list, and whether it's new buildings or existing buildings for data centers, you're definitely gonna wanna look at carbon. You're gonna wanna look at energy. And under those two categories, you can be looking at EV charging stations and renewable energy. You can be looking at baselines that you can get for new buildings through EPA target finders for data center specific info or through Energy Stars portfolio manager. You're gonna look at water. Indoor environmental quality is really important. And there we talk about sound as well as visual issues and lighting and ventilation issues. And we also talk about materials and what the impact is for occupants in terms of exposure issues, but also in terms of looking at carbon emissions and the long-term impacts with every decision that we make about materials. So, those are some of the key factors, but the reason that we look to certification and a lot of data centers are moving in that direction is because certification helps with that all-important validation piece. It helps bring set goals at the beginning of your process, whether you're looking at an existing building or a new building and then measure how you've done throughout that process and really bring it together with certification. And then certification can also help with that downstream reporting if you're reporting out through an ESG framework like GRES certification counts toward that. So baselines are really important in just having a roadmap goal setting from beginning to end, knowing what you wanna measure from the beginning and then following through with that measurement is critical to any sort of evaluation of data centers at the start or at the end. Thanks, Vicki. When I was thinking about it, it's a bit of a chicken and egg, isn't it? So you need the baseline to define your goals, but when you're defining goals, you need to know where you're starting from. So, interesting. Right, every project has a beginning and middle and an end, but that is all interconnected. Thank you very much. Sean, I'd like to ask you about one of the key issues. I mean, if we're digging down a little farther. So, Vicki mentioned the kinds of things that we should be measuring, should be looking at, but there's an issue with collecting the data for sustainability reporting. It can be very complex. It can be very time consuming. And sometimes there are issues with reliability. So can you talk to us a little bit about Data Act? Why does it matter? Yeah, thanks, Mary. And thanks for including me on this discussion. I'm actually like surprised I'm in the same brain powers, the rest of the panelists on this. So I will try to my best to answer this question. One of the things that we're seeing, especially across the sector, is data collection is extremely hard. We're focusing on all three scopes now, before it was just looking at energy usage. One of the things that a lot of organizations struggle with is the portfolios are pretty large and they're continuing to collect multiple data points across their entire data center footprint, all the way from scope one emissions, all the direct emissions within the buildings to scope two, which is your energy usage. And then scope three, which is over 15 categories of data points with 600 different sources and body emissions being one of the most critical factors in this, in the scope three. And so as the companies out there continuing to hire extremely intelligent people in the sustainability space because they need the people to start tracking all this data, what happens is there's a bunch of spreadsheets that are being captured. A lot of bills and goods and services are being captured. Utility bills are being captured and they're collecting all this, normalizing this data and putting it into some format where they can actually calculate what the carbon footprint is. Well, if anyone's ever used Excel spreadsheets in the past and you miss one equation on the Excel spreadsheet, it does a lot of bad things all the way downstream. So automation is critical here. And so if we can take, and data centers are the smartest buildings in the world and they have the most data points that any other building out there has. So if we can take this and automate this data and then calculate it the right way, which means we all have to standardize on. What we did this with PUE many, many years ago, we standardized it. We came up with a solution that says, this is how you calculate PUE. Well, we need to do the same thing and cross the sustainability side on this vertical, standardize on the way everyone approaches this. And the only way to do it accurately is hourly. And so if we're taking, like for example, scope two and the energy side, if we're looking at the hourly usage and can map it against what the emission factors are on that hour of that day, now we're coming out with the most accurate emissions in that building. And this doesn't, you can't just take a national average across the entire United States or all of Europe because every region has a different emission factor based on an hourly emission from the utility, right? And so if there's more renewables that are happening in Pacific Northwest than there is in Florida, for example, then emission factor is gonna be different. So if we're tracking this on an hourly basis, we're actually going to see what areas have the most impact or lower emission factors. We take this data and now we can use insights. How do we make this data better? How do we decarbonize this data? Starting with the data capture, automation, get rid of those messy Excel spreadsheets and now we can focus on making the planet a better place. So, Sean, thank you very much for that. You introduced the scopes. So I'd like to ask you how, you know, if you can give us some insight into how it's possible to manage one of the biggest issues in scope counting, which is double counting. Oh, lovely. Yes, so across this space so on the operator side, a lot of the customers are asking for their scope free emissions. And so like if they're in a building and they're using space and power, they want to be able to report to Grez or to any of the frameworks out there, what their scope free emissions are. And a lot of the Fortune 500 companies in larger have to report scope free emissions now. There's tax reasons, there's benefits of doing this. And so when you're an operator and you're calculating what your scope emissions are for your building, what you don't want to do is start double carbon accounting. So like if you're accounting for your scope two emissions and someone else is accounting for their scope three emissions, and they are both buying offsets for those emissions, now we have a problem. So by understanding like who's responsible for what emissions within those buildings, and there's a lot of operators who are doing an incredible job. They're just going out there buying racks or offsets for the building of all their emissions, which is allowing their clients to be net zero within that building. But when they're reporting against their scope three emissions and going out and buying offsets because they have scope three emissions, this is a problem. And I think that because of the nasancy of this ESG space and we're trying to figure out like who is responsible for this, it's still somewhat of an unknown because depending on what operator I'm talking to, they have a different answer on what they're responsible for versus what their customers are responsible for. And I wish I had a really good answer for you and say like this is set in stone and this is what you're responsible for versus what we're responsible for. But today I think that there's a lot of white papers being written about this and we're all trying to find what the best solution is. So that way we're not double carbon accounting and we're not also spending unwise capital and operating expenses on things that we shouldn't be putting our money at. Yeah, good point. So in the absence of a definitive answer, I've heard that a lot of people are thinking about building these assignments into SLAs with the co-location provider. So yeah, so an ongoing issue that will evolve, I think with time. Dean, I'd like to bring you into the conversation now that we've come to scope three. So it's been identified as one of the biggest challenges for data centers because of the issue of standardization or the lack of standardization. Are there new ways that we can look at this old issue? I know you've been doing some work here. Yeah, actually I want to go back and touch on all three of the panelists points because science-based targets means there's math. It adds up, right? There has to be a baseline, as Vicki is saying, right? And then there has to be a counting to ensure that there is no double counting across that one because this is where the greenwashing and the skepticism comes back from people looking at, yeah, great, you're buying offsets, but is it really making a difference? So when we at Infrastructure Masons basically brought people together to say, is there one thing we could do together as an industry to actually make progress for sustainability? And so we brought leaders together to have that discussion and the I Masons Climate Accord came out of it. Now it ties back again to what Susanna and Sean and Vicki were talking about. The whole point here is we have to have a baseline. We need to know the starting line. We need to have a taxonomy that allows us to be able to have holistic accounting when it comes down to where is the carbon being emitted, right? And then we need to have transparency when it comes to how are we sharing the information so that we can all not really gamify but have a competition that helps the planet. It's like PUE came out specifically to address inefficiencies on the right side of the decimal. This is the actual power consumed or wasted when there's useful work being done. I have also air conditioning, electrical losses and everything on the right. And what happened in that one is everybody started sharing information. And once they started sharing information, everybody started competing. When they started competing, it became table stakes to say that you gotta have a low PUE or else you don't compete in this industry. And so now everybody has a very efficient low number in PUE and that flattened the curve on growth and the projections that we had. So if you look at it, those little things can actually have a big ripple effect. So what we did at the Amasis Climate Accord was say, is there a way we can go back and actually address carbon as the first step towards net zero. But it has to be holistic. And so I'm just gonna throw a few stats out here and then tie this back together. There are seven million data centers in the world. These are locations from the street corner to the Gagawa campuses. Seven million physical addresses that are unique. They're buildings, just like Vicki was talking about. These buildings have a profile. Okay, so what Sean was talking about. If you look at that profile, it is embodied in the carbon intensity of energy consumed to do work in it. Embodied includes the building. So that's the materials, concrete, steel, copper, right? Anything that has to build up that building itself has a historic carbon to get it to the point where it could be used. That's scope three, it's the whole thing. Then you get it to the point and you fill it with stuff. That stuff is product. That product has its own embodied carbon footprint to get it to the point where it can be usable. Now when you assemble those together, you have the building and the stuff in it. You should be able to have each unique location have its own profile of embodied carbon at any given time. As Sean said, this comes down to every hour or what happens when you expand? What happens with a retrofit? What happens with a decomp? It's the life cycle accounting of the embodied carbon. Then you look at the source energy. And I think the world has been really looking at originally or at least in our industry is we got to go back and get the cleanest energy. Awesome, that's one third of the problem. That is, right? Scope one, scope two, depending on who you are, the point being that we have to do that. But if we don't address the carbon, embody carbon aspects of how we build and operate and utilize this stuff, we're not gonna make a difference. So we came up with a carbon label scheme that's driving down carbon inside of digital infrastructure by putting like a nutrition label, carbon label on buildings that includes all the materials and the actual products inside of it. Carbon labels on products. So now you can start to get that data and you can set the baseline. Then you can actually confidently put back in these science-based targets to say, yes, I know what I have, so I can go back and start to lower it. So that's kind of a long-winded answer here. But if you look at the, there has to be a structure to it. There has to be a starting line. And as Vicki said, to get to the end, we have to know what targets we're sending so we can work backwards from that point. Yeah, excellent. Thanks. It's not long-winded, Dean. It's a wonderful summary of where we should be going. But you mentioned a couple of things and it leads me to circle back to some of the other panelists. So Sean, for example, Dean mentioned, we need to understand more about energy. So, you know, and then Vicki, I wanna talk to you about buildings. So, you know, for the longest time, tracking energy consumption was viewed as the same thing as carbon emissions. So can you talk to us and explain what's the difference? Why does it matter? And maybe something about carbon matching. I don't know, that may be a bridge too far. Yeah, so Dean brought us some really good points. And I think that, you know, when we talk about energy, you know, one of the biggest common mistakes that we're seeing right now in this industry is just take that monthly utility bill and go apply some e-grade value to it and come out, that's your carbon footprint. And that's what you're gonna match it to. But we're finding is the companies that are doing that and not tracking it on an hourly basis could be 30 to 60% away from when the actual carbon footprint inside of these regions, inside their buildings. And so carbon matching to what the utility data is at from a monthly standpoint or annual standpoint is a big miss in our industry, which is why hourly tracking is still critical for all these organizations. The SEC will be launching some new regulations soon that may be qualifying, you know, 24-7 versus 87-60 or, you know, of the likes. One of the other things that I do want to point out is the government has earmarked over $369 billion in credits with the IRA. So like as companies are getting smarter and we have to be smarter and starting with the baseline, right? That's super important. If you start with a garbage baseline and you're applying any kind of methodology to decarbonize, the results are garbage. But having a solid baseline and then going out there and something like we were doing with the climate accord is focusing on innovative technology that can be deployed across our entire vertical that now helps decarbonize the footprint within all of our buildings. Well, this is all IRA worthy, right? So if we're installing innovative technology that can be funded by the government and you're getting credits back from taxes, like this is something that we should all be looking at. What we need is adoption, right? So we need some of the big players out there that say it's okay to do hydrogen fuel cell generation or it's okay to use this type of technology because this is what's going to accelerate our decarbonization strategies. Without that kind of technology, we're just reducing it by very a little bit. And then we're buying racks and offsets because that's all we can do. But I think to collectively, if we all come up with solutions and we all get in these organizations and we sit in the room and we can standardize on innovative technology that can be deployed across our entire footprint, that's where we're going to get to our net zero goals. Yeah, so I really like this conversation because it frames the whole issue of metrics and management and reporting as a very positive thing. So it's an opportunity to potentially do a better job at reducing waste, introducing renewables. And so then we get to the idea of opportunity rather than an obligation or regulation. So Vicki, I heard a couple of cues there for you. I heard a holistic view. I also heard the built environment. Could you talk to us a little bit about some of the work that you do and some of the work that the Green Building Initiative has done certifying data centers so that we get a better sense of where the built environment fits in scope three counting. For sure. So one of the things that Dean brought up is really critical and that is like cycle assessment of materials going into our buildings and really having a handle on the supply chain impacts with each decision that we make. So those who are out there scoping out new buildings, you should know that regulatory development is happening that's pushing much more toward having your team understand the inventory of the products that you're putting into buildings. And so the embodied carbon, if you're in California, for instance, you may be pushed toward doing whole building life cycle assessment, which is of course all the scope three embodied carbon going into the building as well as what you produce and consume on site. And GBI has been at the forefront of that. We consider life cycle assessment to be using real science and data to get a handle on what our total impacts are as we make decisions in the built environment. And so within GreenGlobes, we reward people for doing whole building life cycle assessment. We put a lot of points or credits toward that. We also reward people for selecting products based on the use of environmental product declarations which is a little bit of the labeling that Sean and Dean were alluding to in terms of having products go into our buildings and having us know exactly what their downstream impacts are. Few of the other things that we look at in terms of measuring and directing people in the right direction is a site when you're site a building. What proximity is it to public transportation? What thought are you putting into EV charging? In terms of scope three, people that are coming in and out to your facility, what kind of waste management on site waste management and water management considerations are you doing? And so our roadmaps will point people toward those impacts but you really do, you need to start with that holistic thing of what am I gonna measure related to carbon, related to energy, related to water, related to indoor environment and external. What does my community care about? Sound, quality of life, external lighting issues. You need to set goals related to that. You need to use these tools and rely on third-party labels to help you with the decision-making. And then if you pull it all together with certification then you do have that opportunity to have the validation which is critical. As Sean and Dean said in Susanna, like we really have to measure, we have to report out, we have to learn together in the same room and all of these tools are coming together including tax incentives to help us get there. And this is part of a conversation that we had earlier. So just a quick thought if you don't mind Vicki. So through the process of certification you can validate the progress that you've made or your execution on goals but also you made an interesting point earlier about the ability to roll up into other reporting and standardization frameworks. And to me that strikes me as a really important way of bringing all of us onto the same page and developing the kind of collective effort or validating the collective effort that we're trying to get to. Right, well, certification or validation they typically are relied on by third party. So if you're a municipality and you want someone validating the buildings in your territory for what they have achieved in terms of carbon emissions reductions, you would look to a third party like GBI and we have a Green Globes net zero carbon distinction that's coming out. But right now as it exists today there are all sorts of third party certifications that are just baked in and built into ESG reporting schemes. So certification is a good example where your individual building or your portfolio can earn a higher ability to certify with Green Globes certified buildings. Also Gresd has a lot of waiting toward performance issues where a third party certification through Energy Star, Green Globes and others can help increase your rank versus your peers, if you can certify a larger portion of your portfolio. It makes a big difference and investors have that added assurance that there are third parties that are looking at these numbers. Thanks, Vicki. So Dean, it's a dizzying array of metrics. Are we at end of job with metrics or are there new metrics that we can define to deal with new problems or old problems that are emerging in the data center? Yes, and I'll share that in a second. But I wanna touch on what Vicki just said also as well that there's already advancements out there. Like if you think of what Sean's company is doing in zero they're doing real time right tracking of energy source carbon intensity. And that's like 40 to 60% difference when it comes down to the accuracy of the carbon accounting. Okay, so that's a technology approach with a data lake that has sources of all these different things to be able to know exactly. If you're here, we know what the carbon footprint is from the energy. Another one that Vicki's talking about is, I think it's called building transparency.org. So what they do is they have a thing called EC3. EC3 is basically building up projects. But they will tell you, where's your project? What's the address? Here's the actual carbon intensity of the concrete that was sourced in actually a board, the steel that was deployed. Like it's project based. It's incredible. So this is the kind of effort. There's hundreds of people that are really doing like innovations around that one. And the whole point is that that's a place where you can start to get real information. Right to about embody carbon, right? And then actually the source intensity, right? From what Sean's company is doing. So I think that's really important to say that this isn't starting at zero. There's some real things that you can go back and apply. And then the label, there's a question here about the labels themselves. Companies are publishing this information now. Like for example, their electric 95% of the products now have a, they call it PEP, right? Which is a product environmental profile, which is an EPD, was an environmental disclosure profile, which is based on an ISO standard. So it exists. It just is like the accounting. We have to get the accounting right. So not to belabor this or cause more confusion, but I look at, I look at one of the things that we miss in our industry, kind of the dirty little secret, the one that we really need to address is that we build a lot of capacity, but we don't use it. And I was one of those people that actually did that as a buyer. So I would go set contracts up and say, look, I need 10 megawatts. This is my zone in that 10 megawatts. I want it for this perm and these, get all these different metrics on it, but I would use six of it for five to 10 years. 40 to 50% of the capacity built is never used. So how do we address that? Because there's this compounding of all these different problems. We have 105 gigawatts of capacity built in those seven million data centers. We consume 594 terawatt hours of energy. It represents 2.4% of the energy drop. We're building more and more data centers, but anywhere from 40 to 50% of the capacity we build is not used. That doesn't seem sustainable to me. So there's a metric that's out called, that we push called power capacity effectiveness, just like PUE. PUE is on the right. It's showing the mechanical electrical. PCE is doing the entire thing. How do I say, how much have I built and how much do I use? Plain and simple, really simple math to say, I built this. Now when you measure that, just you're gonna drive utilization stuff. You're gonna challenge the status quo when it comes to buffers and DR and failures and bursts and all the other things that you have to solve for. You can do that, but the metrics and the data are what will drive that behavior. And then one last thing also, if those metrics are starting to put back into RFPs, we have over 200 companies in the climate court. They are actually putting sustainability metrics into the RFPs, like carbon label requirements. There's $6 trillion of market cap in the 200 plus companies that are actually involved in the climate court. That is a massive buying power globally. So this is how we really change things, is put the dollar and the priorities in front of the people that can solve those problems. Yeah, thank you very much. Yes, a business opportunity, getting back to the business discussion. Susanna, I'd like you to wrap us up, please. You started the conversation and the consultant always gets the last word. So can you talk to us about how you believe sustainability metrics should evolve in the future? We've got a couple of examples of like very new tools and new approaches, but what do you think we should aim for? And I'm especially interested in this notion of carbon positive. What kinds of metrics and what kinds of ways can we measure carbon positive as opposed to carbon neutral, for example? Well, first of all, Mary, thank you for bringing us all of us together. This is an amazing lecture by esteemed folks who genuinely care and have very practical step-by-step advice. So Vicky, Sean and Dean share from their heart and from their practical experience of many excellent ideas and experience of what they have done. So thank you very much for sharing the wisdom. I took a lot of great notes. Living is learning. So this is really great. What I'd like to wrap it up is the following. Sustainability metrics is still in its evolution. So you all can take part to shape the future of what it really means to you. First, I would like to start with your mind to demystify that metrics are hard. They are not. They are complex. Well, if you break down the fundamentals into the building block, a way how Dean effectively explained it. They're not that compact and they're not that hard. And there are people like Sean and Vicky have done amazing currently now for the industry. So you start there, but not as a blank state. The Member State has already committed to setting the ambition. Many of the large-scale data center companies have already taken that. I do like to do a shout out of a good friend of mine, Patty Stamos, who actually wanted to be at today's panel. And she has done a great job with her team leading the flag going forward for E-Connex. And her report is very clear in terms of some of the work that she has done, specifically, relating to today's topic. So go check it out in terms of E-Connex Sustainability and download that report. If you have any question, please connect with Patty because I know she wanted to be here to tell you, but she can connect with you offline through JSA. Then you go back into one of the part about climate positive, Mary. The technique to basically do it is to model a climate scenario that is helpful to you. Dean mentioned about the millions of data center around the world, recognized each of the locale has a different hypothetical scenario outcome. You need to know where you are at, which is why I brought up the environmental health index in that regard. Where you cite your data center, where you operate the data center, it starts differently because of the fundamental premise of the locale. The second part is evidence-based framework. It is not about just accounting or just about adding math. It is really looking at the evidence and be able to identify a science-based modeling of a hypothetical outcome that you think you're gonna live in under three degree, under two degree or under 1.5. At the Paris Accord, we have decided that disaster things will happen to our environment if we operate above 1.5. That is our conclusion, but you can make your own conclusion about what is a plausible pathway. For climate positive is a scenario that you're gonna identify, meaning that it needed to act different than business as usual. The normal tools that you use in terms of the SWOT analysis are insufficient. They are good, but they are insufficient. You need to learn from Vicky, organization of work that she have done in terms of looking at from a EC2. Asking GPT the question regarding your mission probably doesn't give you the answer today, maybe in the future. So you may want to get involved in Sean's company to genuinely understanding the complexity, let him do the heavy lifting, then you can actually save your time to do the modeling of the scenario. So we're all here to help. The conventional marketing tool of looking at carbon, neutrality or carbon positive, Mary doesn't work either. But what is actually interesting is it's becoming a clean brand competition. Actually at the head of state level, but also at the company level, because when you do what you do on the metrics, it is good for yourself and it's good for environment because it builds strength to the reputation. Exposure of predictable legal action is also need to be considered because we all kind of underestimate the geopolitical uncertainty. So carbon positive in conclusion speaks to taking a departure from the linear economy and the fence thinking. You need to quantify the impacts of the risk and the opportunity possible that happens to you. The asset and the supply chain in the mind of the social benefits above and beyond just the data center in defense that Dean and I work at as son, Dean and I work at eBay. Do not consider just building things out and grab the resource because we can't. We need to be more considerate regarding the citizens and the environmental harm of the climate scenario that you choose to measure yourself. So thank you, back to you Mary. That's wonderful, Susanna. Thank you so much for that. We've had an amazing discussion, super high level and we've dug down into the details. And that's because the panel that I've been able to work with, I've been privileged to work with has so much experience and knowledge on this topic. And thank you for the shout out to Patricia. I'm sorry, she was not able to join us. She was a wonderful participant in discussions that we had in advance of the virtual round table. So next time Patricia and my thanks again, Susanna, Sean, Vicki and Dean, a wonderful conversation. I can't wait till we get to clean brand competition, Susanna. That's a good thing to remember on our way out. Thank you, Mary. Thank you. Thank you, Barbara. Thanks, everyone. Well, thank you so much to all our panelists today for the great insights on sustainability measurements. As the data center industry collectively sets challenging ESG targets to achieve the goal of getting to net carbon zero or carbon positive. Thank you for the conversation and thank you to our viewers today. If you were one of our first 100 registrants, we hope you enjoyed your meal. For the rest of you, please make sure to register early for our next round table. Our very next round table will be continuing the theme of greener data and it will be Earth Day theme. So greener data, Earth Day edition will be entitled Renewable Energy Solutions to cut carbon in the data center. This round table will take place on April 20th at 1 p.m. Eastern time. So that's a wrap for today. Thank you again for all of your insights. Please, everyone, look out for the playback of today's round table, which will be coming soon to JSA TV and JSA podcasts on YouTube, iTunes, iHeart, Spotify, and more. In the meantime, don't forget to join us in the networking lounge. So just stay on here for a few more minutes, join a table, chat with the panelists, today's panelists, and some of the attendees. We look forward to some good discussions to carry on. But until next time, happy networking.