 Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome Aloha to history is here to help, and at least we try to help, if nothing else will try to untangle some of the present and past knots. I think probably everybody in one way or another is aware of the January 6 event and the earrings. This is our dear friend, a noted scholar of religion and extremism Dr Jean Rosenfeld who holds her PhD from UCLA to help us think through January 6, particularly what it might or didn't or couldn't mean for the participants. As far as their myths and the stories and how we as outsiders to that movement. In light of the past, and how we might address it. So Jean, welcome back, but good to see you as always. Could you help us try to figure out what this meant for the participants I think we hear a lot about what it means to others, but how do the participants make sense of this event. Well that is the question. Exactly. And although we can't read their minds. We know something about the history of the belief system that some of them have been recruited to, and some of them have been the agents of recruitment. If you go back 50 years to the 1970s in America. There was a group that arose and a regular group called the Posse Comitatus. That means power of the county. And what it means is that the legitimate power of rule is the county sheriff. They did not recognize the system of government as it exists today. They've considered this system of government to be weak and declining and adversarial, because what had happened shortly after they formed was a terrible depression in the farm belt in the United States, where people were losing their farms to the IRS and to the banks. And we on the coastal areas were and then the cities were not really cognizant of this, and the legislature the federal government did not help. So they appealed to people in local places and they gained a lot of sympathy. And this was the beginning of a strong anti government trend in the United States among the people, the folks poke a lot, or what we use as a bait for Latin basis for the word populism, which is a very popular word today. The people who stormed the capital on January 6 would probably call themselves populists. Nevertheless, beginning with the Posse Comitatus who call themselves the first quote patriot movement. We had a range of movements that arose, including a native religion called Christian identity, which was racist, basically. That inspired a group of movements that existed in the rural areas largely. And one of the outcomes of this was the Oklahoma City bombing Timothy McBae used to hang out at some of these places called one was called Elohim City. Elohim City had a important inhabitant James Ellison, who had had his own movement 10 years earlier. And it was in his movement the Covenant the sword in the arm of the Lord, which was a Christian fascist movement basically. They came up with the idea of bombing Oklahoma City. Where did they get that idea. We're starting with ideas we're going to go to myths. Okay, they got the idea from the Turner Diaries, a underground book about an American Revolution against non white people, intellectuals, liberals, gays, anyone who wasn't them. And this book was published in 1978. And it had a scene in it about a bombing of a federal building. This was taken up by the Covenant the sword in the arm of the Lord. They actually set out in a car to do this they turned around because God told them so. And eventually when Ellison moved to Elohim City. That's where we think Tim McBae got the idea, and his idea was to have this terrorist event happen so that it would be a call to action to those who are like minded. Now, who are the like minded people. They were an array of individuals whose lives found meaning in myth. And by myth, I mean that which gives meaning to life it's a circular argument, but all of us to some extent have a myth we believe, for example, that the world started a particular way. Some people believe it started maybe over 5000 years ago in the Garden of Eden. Others believe in the big bang theory of billions of years ago. These are both origin myths, but also in the United States, our primary religion, our majority religion has been for 200 years Christianity. And that has an end of the world myth as well. So it's not just how the world begins but it's how the world ends and how does the world end. And the world winds down so badly, and becomes so polluted, and so dirty, and so adversarial that it destructs in a huge catastrophe or crisis. And out of this huge catastrophe, a newer and curer world begins. This is the millennial myth that there will be a kingdom, a shining city on the hill all over again. Now just this is a very brief overview of how some of these people think they are today, more concerned with the end of the world myth, then the beginning of the world myth. And we call this apocalypticism. One other thing that has animated them is that the year 2000 occurred, sort of midway between the 1970s and the 2020s. And this is a 1000 year turning, which animates those who have a Christian background because the book of Revelation which is an apocalyptic myth and describes the end of the world for them occurs. And then it sets in place 1000 year kingdom. So anything ringing of a number of 1000 years also brings up this sense of apocalyptic. And it's carried through in many symbolic ways in the United States. Okay, so now I'm going to jump to January 6. Let me ask a couple of quick questions from what you said, very, very helpful. I think for our listeners. Can you give us some sense of the distinctions are within Christianity. Certainly, American Christianity includes a far majority of people who don't follow this. So, how do you explain the splits in Christianity to get this extremism. Well, when the United States was founded. We set in place a constitution which separated church and state. Why did it separate church and state, because people have largely come from Europe, out of the religious wars. And there was no separation of church and state the church was a state church. And then a reformation where Catholicism have been challenged, and wars were fought as a result of that and state churches became Protestant in many ways in Germany the state church was Lutheran, as it is today. So, when people came to this country it wasn't the Lutherans that came. The people the Lutherans were persecuting because once you open the door and say, you know Catholicism is a false religion we've got to go back to the origins of Christianity and, and purify it and start our religion all over again. Then there are going to be those that say, Oh, the one you started isn't pure enough I'm going to start mine. So we got a bunch of rejects religiously speaking from Europe. People didn't recognize state churches. And they wrote that into the Constitution they wanted freedom of religion to be any religion they wanted and as a result we've had an array of new religions arise in the United States from the seventh day and Venice to the Mormons. How would you use in term Christianity and seeing how the people you study, use Christianity. How would you differentiate their use though or their Christian myths from a majority of American Christians who don't abide by these extremist religious ideas. Well in keeping with this propensity to change and purify and create new religious movements. I want to say something called the NAR the National Apostolic, I want to say apocalyptic but it's apostolic national apostolic reformation. You know about the mega churches out there, the entrepreneurial pastors that create these huge churches they're non denominational. People are looking for something better that explains the world to them and they can find meaning it. So, the national apostolic reformation tends to be more nationalistic. It sounds more political. It's in line with the notion that the United States is declining from a previous millennial kingdom status us shining city on the hill, where you had people like us running the show. And our values dominated. And since the 1960s that horrible decade from 1965 to 1975, when the youth rebelled and change the values, the traditional values that were in place in the 1950s. We have been going steadily downhill and look us look at us now. We have rampant abortion. We have gay is getting married. We have my God, a black president who wasn't even born in the United States. We have immigration and pedophiles at the border. We have pedophiles and government. All of these negative ideas are very absolute and what I'm going to introduce a new word here, what we call Gnostic. Gnostic is a Greek word, meaning knowledge. But it also describes 2000 years ago, a series of very dominant religions that separated the world into good and evil beings, good and evil gods, good and evil ideas. And this polarization of good and evil is very much a part of the patriotic, national apostolic movement type, nationalistic apocalyptic of today. It's very Gnostic. And it's not I alone who recognizes this but other scholars recognize this to the problem with that is that it identifies authenticity and goodness with only one set of people. And if you believe that you belong to that set of people, but all these other bad material beings are running the world. And the leaders are doing their bidding. Then you feel that it's your meaning in life is to restore the world to its previous greatness and here we come to maga religion. Maga politics is a type of religion. Okay, very great again is very much an apocalyptic slogan. Right. All right, very helpful. I think also for our listeners or viewers. When they notice again, they may not be paying absolute attention but they also see a disproportionate number of either active or retired military law enforcement figures. And they claim that the the presence, if not the leadership of folks who either were in the military law enforcement, or it seems would like to have been. So they approach this as a military operation essentially. How does that fit into your ideas about about religion and the movements that you've studied. This is a pacific movement. This is a movement in which violence has a very important part to play. If you read the book of Revelation, that's not a very specific test test either. You have the Christ with the sword in the book of Revelation, riding a horse. Okay, with weapons. You have violent things happening. You have legs and you have wars and you have evil beings arising and persecuting the good. So, so this is basically violent. Violence has a cleansing quality to it. Let's go back 50 years again, not quite 50 years to one of the leading sources of this myth of the end times the magamit what I call the magamit. And that is the book of an American Nazi leader at that time, who wrote a book called the Turner diaries. And what it is it's a blueprint for revolution by the white race. And it starts out with confiscation of guns. And right away, you see the importance of guns in this myth. The second amendment is a sacred text. And keeping your guns is sacred. And what's sacred cannot be touched by others it's absolute. It's part of the good, not the bad. But the bad guys have guns too so you have to have bigger guns. Consequently, the notion that somebody would take away their guns would trigger a revolutionary commitment. And that happened in the 1990s, when Bill Clinton got the assault weapons ban past that triggered a lot of opposition in fact the 1990s. Some of these movements had become very violent. There was a group called the order. Which murdered a Jewish talk so show host which robbed a Brinks truck, you know, cut in Ukiah, California, and which had dreams of assembling a revolutionary movement, much like Tim McVeigh tried to do in fact the order was the name of the secret group the elite group in the Turner diaries that started the revolution and that Earl Turner was a member of and it was a mystery cult, where they pledged their oath, not to the Constitution, not to God, but to the book. And the prototype, the symbolic prototype for the book was Hitler's mind calm. My struggle. And this is a myth of struggle at the end time to purify the world, and to exterminate the pollution, the pollution and the people who pollute it, and to put in place. Well, our values, our way of life, start the calendar all over again with the day one. And that's what the Turner diaries is about. And the member of the order who also pushed this one step further was named David Lane, he was convicted of killing them, or participating in the killing of the Jewish talk so show host Ellen Berg. And he failed that he was a theoretician, a myth maker, and his book. He, he originated the so called 14 words, and the 14 words are very alive today, you could have read them in Breitbart and Steve Bannon's media newspaper. You can hear them from the Charlottesville people. And it's basically the 14 words which may have been based on the 14 points of the Versailles treaty in opposition to the Versailles treaty are, we must ensure the survival of our children. And the white race, that's not 14 words, but here's Lane's book. He's got the symbol 14 all over it. And he is also an artist. And it's throughout the whole book, he's got these 14 words. And again, I'll read them, we must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children. That is a Charlottesville mantra. And we see this also in the great replacement theory, the great replacement theory which says, you know, in a few years, the United States will be a minority nation. People will be subservient. We are, our existence is threatened now. We must keep our guns. We must foment the revolution. How do you foment a revolution, which is a mythical idea. You take action. In 1936 was the enactment of revolution. It starts with overturning the government as we know it and in placing a new government headed by charismatic leader Donald Trump. Okay, thank you very much. We had a time we have a lot of crucial questions still to ask so let me throw a few of them at you and help us. There's discussion today about connections internationally between the groups that you've discussed in the United States and overseas groups do you find any connections other other than the kind of superficial ones we read about is this, it seems to be internationalism and nationalism should rub against each other. But we do see references back and forth across borders is there anything you could help us with. Is this a uniquely American religious movement. Is it a movement, which goes beyond American borders as myths and religion. Well, you know, let's hope topic would take a seminar, but let me just briefly say, yes, it's an international movement. Okay, we'll have you back. We'll have you back. Can you give us one or two examples. And we'll have you back to talk about the internationalism. Marine Le Pen in France her movement. Okay. Is it Mario dropy and in Italy. There is a German movement that is very caught up with the military. There of course is Russia is an example of this. There is a, a nationalist populist nationalist, a government in India which is trying to get rid of all the Muslims. So we see those examples, but do you see any fundamental connection among them. Yes, it's, it's a mythical ideological connection they all have founding national mess for a new world. And okay. All right, we will have you back because that's a fascinating topic and I wouldn't even touch that right now when we. All right, I know I know Jay for example is interested in internationalism to only have a few minutes left. I'm going to give you probably the most difficult question, which is, what is to be done. What is to be done about particularly those who are violent, those who directly break the law. In an unpeaceful way. What, what is society and, and or the government do to try to either prevent or certainly manage this situation. This takes changing minds. This takes education. This takes the media to bring front and center. And those who can explain to others, why people are recruited, why they do this, what is animating them, and how can we speak to them, because we have to speak to them. And I think that the January six hearings are an attempt to do that. They're an attempt to take the story out of the mouths of those that committed this uprising, and to put it in the mouths of those who say, we are the legitimate conservative Americans, and what you're doing is not conservative. But it's an interesting way of telling the story, through the mouths of Republicans, who are at odds with the Republican Party today, because the Republican Party is basically been taken over by the MAGA myth makers. So how do you see those conservative Republicans standing up and saying something like what would provoke them to do it because they're, they seem fearful of electoral consequences. Speaking on the basic belief that Donald Trump is president of the United States today that he was overthrown in a by all these evil people, those those guys, and that we must take our country back. And I mean that by showing that the lie is a lie and that it was, it's a purposeful lie and that it didn't come from above from divine sources, it came from individuals who had it in mind to increase their power and, frankly, their, their money. So if we follow the religious and apocalyptic myths though, does that make Trump even more of a martyr. Because we didn't get into the idea of the leader, which is a very important part of this, but strictly speaking in sociological theory, the leaders is has a symbiotic relationship with the followers. On the one hand, he can speak in the language of those who feel dispossessed and disenfranchised, he can speak to them like nobody else. On the other hand, they have to give him their utter devotion. And they give him their utter devotion because he alone can fix it. He's the miracle worker. If his miracles fail, if he loses, if he's a loser, and that's why Trump can't be seen as a loser, then his charisma will fall. He will lose his power. And Trump would is a fallen charismatic leader. He does not have the power he had before. I do not think he will ever be president again by the theory anyway. However, his devoted followers and have continued to support him, some of them. Okay, so he has a, an opportunity to retain some of that power. What we have to do is undercut him as a miracle worker, show him as a grifter and con man. And then he has feet of clay, and that his miracle working is a failure that he is a loser. That's what Trump is fighting. He knows that instinctively he's a brilliant charismatic leader. And so he can't be seen as a loser. Therefore he has to be portrayed as a loser. And that's the purpose of the January 6 hearings. Thank you very much. We're unfortunately out of time, we're going to have you back to talk about the internationalism and then the leadership. And I'll leave with two quick comments. One is to thank you as always for helping us through the mysteries and myths of these issues. And I would like to leave ourselves and our viewers with perhaps a difficult question, which is, can Trumpism survive Donald Trump? And I think that is a headline we can concern ourselves with. So thank you very much. And I see we have no questions in chat. So I bid you do take care of yourself. Aloha and good health. Thank you very much. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktecawaii.com. Mahalo.