 Hong Kong Business Integrity Act and more. Today with Michael Davis, our old friend who is associated with, this is not necessarily an order of importance, NYU, Jindal, Woodrow Wilson. What did I miss there? I missed a couple of things. And Hong Kong University from back when, not too long ago. And Samuel Chu, who's an activist and an active lobbyist is the right word, I think, who was behind this act. And I guess I like a better introduction, Michael. Can you give us a broader introduction of Samuel Chu? Yes, Samuel and I worked together on a lot of things. We were involved together in forming the Hong Kong Democracy Council years ago. We've gone on now to form the campaign for Hong Kong and Samuel's in charge of that. Samuel's one of six people for which the Hong Kong government already announced warrants for their arrest soon after the national security law was passed. There were six overseas located people and Samuel was one of those. And he's been very active in Congress for years. He's worked on lobbying, not just over Hong Kong issues, but other issues as well. And so he's someone who kind of knows what goes on in the halls of Congress and how to go about promoting legislation on issues related to Hong Kong and otherwise. Yeah, welcome to the show, Michael. Welcome to the show, Samuel. Nice to have you both here on this important issue. And by the way, Samuel, there are a couple of things that I wonder if you could help me lobby with. I think the country needs a lot of lobbying these days. It turns out to be the case. And actually you're right that I'm actually not technically known as a lobbyist because I am a little bit of a weird animal on Capitol Hill. I don't actually just lobby on behalf of let's say corporation or even individual organizations. I teach people how to actually lobby for themselves. So that's actually a little bit of a different profession in a way because I think when people think of lobbyists think of like the oil companies and the big media company hiring and paying billions of dollars and the Chinese government and their affiliated companies lobbying Congress. But that's actually not exactly what I do. Yeah, I feel another show coming on. But today let's talk about in global connections here the Hong Kong Business Integrity and Transparency Act, which you, Samuel, and to some extent you too, Michael, have had a lot to say about. And it's been introduced in August. I wanna say the last week in August in the house. So the question is, and I told you I was gonna ask you this question, Samuel, why is this a big deal? Well, let me I think put this in context. I think that many people think that, you know, Congress is not necessarily functional as we see it. And we're just now right up to the midterm election that is less than two months away. And so I think that just to put it into context, I think it sometimes is really helpful for people just general public to understand sort of the purpose of different action in Congress, right? This bill, because it's introduced so late in Congress and it's introduced only when one house and with a very specific legislator, John Curtis from the state of Utah. People need to understand that this is really what we call in our, you know, sort of inside of Beltway, you know, behind closed door, a messaging bill. Meaning that the purpose of it is to really send a message. It's a way of highlighting what are the concerns right now in Hong Kong. And even though it probably won't move and what progressed in terms of the legislative process, it is really important as a continuation of what started really two years ago, when the US under President Trump under the executive order stripped Hong Kong of its special status under the Hong Kong policy act in 1992, which gave it all kinds of advantages and standing in status that the PRC does not enjoy and that Hong Kong enjoys separate from the PRC. All the way to another marker last year in June when the Commerce Department and Treasury and State Department combined issued a warning to US businesses doing business in Hong Kong under the new national security law. So in a way, I see this as a helpful continuation of putting a spotlight on the danger and risks of not only to businesses operating in Hong Kong, but those consumers and customers who are using those services, particularly those who are using American companies operating in Hong Kong, that the rights and privacy might be at risk. And that's what this legislation being introduced, I think means in terms of the whole continuum of action. Well, one thing distracts me is messaging. Okay, the messaging is through people and companies in Hong Kong, what about some messaging to the PRC? You intend, does the bill intend to send a message to them and are they hearing it and how do they react to it? Well, I think that- That was a good question, Michael, don't you think so? That was a good question, yeah. I think that we have seen, I mean, in general, just looking back and beyond even the most recent period, we know that actually the Beijing regime is fairly sensitive to international criticism. In fact, they're probably one of the most sensitive national government globally that when they get criticized or when there's a news editorial and this is actually carried over to Hong Kong, we have seen repeatedly high level official with themselves write letters to editors in response to an op-ed either in the Wall Street Journal, they threatened to sue the Wall Street Journal at one point for claiming and actually talking about what the national security law has done to Hong Kong's freedom and autonomy. So, you know, I actually, you know, sometimes people think, well, how much impact does it have? It turns out that the Hong Kong government is very sensitive to these kind of messages. And I think that the other thing that I think is really important as well is that this is also pointing out to consumers. So people like you and me about the danger of when companies like Metta formerly known as Facebook, when companies like Google and Apple can dominate access and use of the internet in the ways that they do, it makes them extremely easily manipulated by authoritarian regimes and governments like the PRC. So that actually has messaging benefit on multiple levels. But you mentioned that it's not likely this is gonna pass. And that certainly has an effect on the effect. In other words, the PRC is up. Very nice Samuel, nice bill, but it's not gonna pass. So we're not gonna take it seriously. So query, how do you message with the bill that's not likely to pass in this very special Congress? Well, first of all, I mean, we're talking about it. So it's working at least at one level is that we're actually talking about it on the, you know, in a public conversation. And so I think that's important. The other thing that I think this is something that we do constantly again hundreds of thousands of bills are introduced every Congress and every year in Congress. They serve different purposes. A very tiny number of those bills are actually enacted into law. And I think that, you know, if you look at, I actually don't have the numbers in front of me anymore right now, but I think it's somewhere between two to 3% of bills are introduced actually have actions on it and then actually becomes, you know, even a small percentage becomes law. So this is actually part of the democratic, you know, system we're in, right? It's actually people doing, introducing this bill as a way of stirring public debate as a way of messaging to the public about an issue that might be important. And at the end of the day, this also is about building and organizing sort of the political support on Capitol Hill. Getting a member like, you know, Representative Curtis who's from Utah on the record of saying that this is something that I care about. This is something that I, my constituents cares about. This is something my party cares about. Those are all benefit that comes in. But again, I think that this is a, you know, it's a valid question because I think people who see Congress from a very far distance would say, what if we introduced 12,000 bill only, you know, 2% of them actually get anywhere? That's a waste of time. But in politics, there's benefit and value both for the causes that we care about, but also for the politicians who are in those seats to act in this way. And I do think that there's some value because we're talking about it and other people are talking about. Michael, you know, you're involved in a number of publications, lecture, speeches, panels, what have you, books on the subject. Where does the Hong Kong Business Integrity and Transparency Act fit, you know, in your universe? Well, I think for me, when I'm writing and offering opinion, it just becomes another, as Samuel says, it's kind of a message. It becomes another source where I can at least say that there have been concerns expressed overseas, in this case in the United States, over the integrity of business in Hong Kong. When Sam focuses a lot on these communication companies, it's because this bill specifically, I mean, Samuel can give you details better than I, but it specifically addresses this problem of information and how it's being used. And so for people like myself and others who speak about Hong Kong, this tells, this is a message that can say, look, Hong Kong government, the situation is perilous. The rest of the world is leaving, or they're going somewhere else with their business, the trust is down and so on. And you see the government, as Samuel says, here's this. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong keeps repeating over and over in the most perfect English that he happens to have, that we need to get the message right. Just two days ago, he gave a speech to news organizations where he told them that you have to explain Hong Kong to the world. You have to tell, obviously he's saying, he says, don't use fake news. That's all you, Jay and everyone else, but use the news they like and explain it to the world. So this sensitivity is very high. The new secretary for justice, one of the first things he announced was that he wants to send lawyers and judges or whoever overseas to explain that the rule of law still exists in Hong Kong. So when you have a bill like this in Congress, there's a very powerful message that's being received and trust me, Hong Kong has an office in Washington and so does Beijing. They know that this bill's been proposed. So there's sort of multiple levels in which effectiveness to address a real problem for real people in Hong Kong, regarding the rule of law is addressed. Well, of course, Samuel, there is the possibility that people will forget Hong Kong. This country has a certain isolationist that's into it these days. I don't think we care about international issues as much as we should. I worry about, for example, not staying engaged on Ukraine or to the degree we need to stay engaged on Ukraine. And I certainly worry about the, not staying engaged on Hong Kong. In many ways, Hong Kong is a forgotten issue. Okay, that happened, all finished, and we don't do anything. So this raises awareness about it and this is valuable in that sense. But ultimately the people, this is a hard one to defend, but ultimately the people speak to Congress, ultimately Congress listens, ultimately, it may take a while, but ultimately, and we have an election in November, as you mentioned. How could that change thing? And I mean, I query whether it would make this bill more likely of success. We read it would make other bills more likely of success along the same lines. Will we pay more attention to Hong Kong and Congress after the November elections? What do you think? So I think you bring up actually a couple of really important points. I actually was just on the hill this past week with 280 Ukrainians and Ukrainian Americans for their first ever DC summit. And this is why we have to continue to use these incremental actions. And even if it's a messaging or a press statement to continue to build the connection. So when actually I visited probably about 12 or 15 offices just this past week helping with the Ukrainians who was advocating for support in the US, just like we were doing and have been and are continuing to do for Hong Kong. And I brought the message besides the fact that we all support Ukraine is that three weeks ago I was in Prague and I had a chance to actually meet with the Ukrainian foreign minister in Prague in a delegation from Ukraine there during the forum 2000, which is a foreign policy gathering in Prague there. And I remember talking to him, I said that here's what we really believe in, is that this is not just about this freedom and democracy in Ukraine. This is not just about deterring or pushing back against Putin, but that Beijing and Xi Jinping is watching extremely closely on how the world and the US continue to respond to Russia's aggression and invasion. And that what happens in Ukraine is a deterrence to China right now in this moment. And that's what then, when I went in a room when I'm hearing the stories from Ukrainians who have brought their own personal stories to the halls of Congress and then the congressional offices, we're making those connections and that's how you keep the political focus. Do you continue to look at not just what's the latest headline? Because why message to members of Congress, including people like Representative Curtis who introduced the Hong Kong bill, is that complete victory in Ukraine is not just essential and critical for Ukrainian. It's essential for Hong Kongers, for Taiwanese, for others who are gonna be directly impacted based on what unfold in Ukraine. And I think that that's how part of the work of advocating that the movement in Hong Kong, people like me and Michael continue to do because that's what you need to do to keep Hong Kong in the forefront of people's mind. Well, you can run the same parallel between Hong Kong and Taiwan, can't you? What happens in Hong Kong also affects the Chinese aggression toward Taiwan? Can you talk about it? Yeah, I mean, I think that long, even before the Ukraine invasion, there's always been this mentality in this sense that China is looking to use Hong Kong as sort of the example of the model, right? They still do. Even after Hong Kong's one country, two systems collapsed, Beijing, just this year, published a paper that says that we're gonna use the same system to peacefully reunite with Taiwan. And that is until then, you know, they really want one of the ambassador, I think the ambassador to the Netherlands or someone slipped and spoke his mind and said that, well, you know, once we reunite, we're gonna re-educate the whole Taiwanese population. And I think that what you're seeing not only is there a parallel between what is coming for Taiwan, but going back to this bill, what we have seen is that Chinese government and Xi Jinping and his oligarchy and his own trust in the circle is watching closely the economic pressure and sanctions and global isolation that Putin is suffering right now. And in fact, there's been reports that they're moving the money, they're strengthening and sort of pulling back the overseas assets and investment in anticipation that what has happened to Putin and Russia will happen if they try to or intend to take the same kind of aggressive actions against Taiwan. And so I think you're exactly right that these all connect in a way that, you know, I always tell people that if a dictator and authoritarian leader tells you what they want to do, believe them. That's what we've seen in Russia and that's what we're seeing in Xi. Thanks me that the sanctions that we've imposed against Russia, you know, haven't been perfect, but with respect to China, China is more vulnerable, isn't it? To sanctions like that, because China is out there more and China is a much, much bigger economy. And if we ever got into a sanctions war with China, and I can see Xi Jinping being very concerned about this, if we ever imposed this kind of sanction on China, it would have a much greater effect than it has had in Russia, do you agree? Yeah, and I think that, you know, let's be very clear. I just spent the last few weeks before DC in Europe and there's a painful side to imposing sanctions, not just to Russia, but we see this crisis that's brewing of European countries looking and realizing that they are over reliant on energy from Russia has put them in a vulnerable place. But here's what I really do think everywhere I've been in Europe, it was clearly stated to me that as painful as this is right now, we have to ensure that Ukraine win. And so I think that China is very much looking at what has happened, not just to, you know, what's happening in terms of what could happen sanction-wise. China is going through its own internal economic turmoil, word or economic growth that has been backed by the state over the last decade has slowed, there's been a looming crash of the real estate market. There was all these adverse effects about zero COVID policy that have shut down multiple cities and millions of people have been locked in in their homes. So the pressure is already building and you can see that the world is learning and learning quickly over reliance on any singular government like Russia or China leads to a deep and existential threat to national security for everyone. That's really too bad that we're moving away from a flat world, we're moving away from the benefits of interdependence. And now we have to look at interdependence more carefully and given these autocratic regimes. Michael, I have a question for you. You know, what Samuel's talking about sounds to me like defensive, you know? And the question is, and I'm sure there will be other messaging bills. This is not the last one. Am I right by the way, Samuel? There will be more, won't there? There will always be bills in Congress, trust me. It goes together like love and marriage. Michael, can we ever get back to where we wanna be? Or is this a matter of sort of defensive plays one after the other to try to hold things that status quo, not let it deteriorate, not let public opinion deteriorate, or can we get back to where we should be? Well, that's the thing. I think we're always looking for a better space to be in and better conditions to develop. And of course, we'll never get fully there. That's what democracies are all about. I think what Churchill said, it's just the least bad form of government, not a very perfect form by any means. But our democracy right now, I think it's suffering a lot. This polarization, this mega movement that Biden has been highlighting in his speeches is a real problem. And it's all coming to head in this coming election. I think a lot of Republicans have been concerned that Trump has got his guys in the front to run in these offices and the Democrats are cheering and hoping that that means that they can get control and actually do and carry out their policies. If that doesn't happen, then we're gonna continue in the same mode, Trump's gonna be sniping at the sidelines and everything that the government wants to do will be blocked in this Congress we've been talking about. So I think one of the biggest problems and challenges for our country is to get our own house in order and it seems a daunting task. And we can only hope that the election might shed light on that and improve the situation. But when it comes to places like Hong Kong, I think that there is room to push policies that impose a cost on Beijing for what it's doing there. And I think that's kind of what we try to do. And there is real concern and this bill highlights it with corruption kind of taking over in Hong Kong. People always think of corruption as just paying bribes but it's not if you have to please certain officials to be able to do business somewhere and if you displease them, you can't do business that's corruption, you know, you're rewarding people for their loyalty. And that's the way Hong Kong has evolved now has become kind of an unlevel playing field. And so the kind of things that this bill talks about even though it's not enacted are kind of part of the process of getting things in the right direction. Beijing, the mainland economy is suffering, I don't know how many 50 million or something empty apartments that are just made and they can't sell them. Maybe I have that figure wrong but it seems that was something like that. And a huge number. So will Beijing become more amenable if economic pain is the cost of not listening to the rest of the world? So these are things I think are the only things that we can do from where we're sitting. And I think that's sort of what that bill was highlighting even if it doesn't do any more than message. You know, I do worry about a fringe of isolationism and I worry that it lives more visibly in the GOP side of the equation. And I wonder if that concerns you, you know, in a couple of months time, we're gonna see a political expression in this country, however that works. And I wonder if you're concerned that that would undermine or make your initiative less popular because of the results of that election. I think probably not because one of the few things on Capitol Hill that both sides of the aisle agree with and that is their concerns about China. So most of the issues that are polarizing us over immigration, over climate change and all sorts of things they disagree on and these some of an existential crisis like climate change, this is very sad to see because it means that we really have a hard time doing anything about it as long as our government remains divided in the way it is. But on China and pressure on China, I think there's a lot more agreement so that maybe that's something to appreciate. You know, Samuel, I recall there's something in the bill that calls for reporting, periodic reporting. And that's very clever, I think, because if you follow the track of trying to keep this at the top of public awareness, every time a report is issued, that's a public event worth covering in the media. So, Jay, I think you're now on your way to becoming a very good lobbyist or legislator. You're learning the tricks that we have exactly because it's not just for report, then you get to have a whole event about the report. If the report is late, you get to write a letter and get the report on time. And so there's, but here's, I think, where the bottom line is. So the bill language that is in this transparency act specifically targets Hong Kong government accessing and requesting help from U.S. companies for data and information that they can use to then prosecute them for political crime. Now, I think that that is a concern that is very much on the top of our minds from the very beginning of the national security law, where we know that, and it's been documented, the company themselves have revealed that over the past few years, there's been thousands of requests from Hong Kong government. And we see it actually in action. People have been prosecuted for public posting on social media under the national security law. But here's where I think we have to be much more, hopefully this leads to a bigger conversation, which is that the use of technology and surveillance in China is not new. It has now come to Hong Kong. So even though we have still access to Twitter, which is not possible in China, we still can use VPN in Hong Kong. We still have free access to a lot of the sites and content online. People need to change the way they think about how they use the internet under this current government and regime in Hong Kong. And that's not just Hong Kongers. It's other because I was the first US citizen, foreign citizen to be wanted under the national security law. And I would go even one step further. This is not unique to just Hong Kong or authoritarian country. In the US right now, we are constantly regularly debating the role that tech company plays when it comes to prosecutions of certain crimes. Just as a more sort of hot topic recently, when the Roe v. Wade decision was overturned by Supreme Court, one of the first thing that came out as a byproduct was what about search history of people on Google or the messages on Facebook? Can they be used in states where they outlaw and ban abortion to prosecute people who are seeking this particular form of medical procedures, right? So that actually is really important because like I said, this bill might just be a very narrow specific messaging about Hong Kong, but for someone who believes in democracy and freedom, not just in Hong Kong and in China, but in the US and around the world, this contributes to a broader conversation of what is the role of big tech when it comes to freedom, not just halfway around the world, but right here at home. Absolutely, that's a good point. And a worthy conversation. Let me ask you this though, there's a special, I guess it's a statute or a regulation that allows Hong Kongers to come to the UK and take a kind of permanent residence or a semi-permanent residence there. And hundreds of thousands of Hong Kongers have done that. It may be running out of the numbers, but it has had an effect, not only in giving them sanctuary, but in the public discussion. And I wonder if you see going forward whether it's possible for the same sort of thing to happen in the US. And I mean, if it does happen, if it can happen, is it beneficial to your view of things, your cause in evening, the playing field in returning to a better time in Hong Kong? So I think a couple of things. I obviously, I think that the Brits have a unique obligation, I would say. I think that they contributed in a major way, the mess that we're in, in the way that they negotiated the agreement and the way that they essentially just sort of walked away and washed their hands of Hong Kong or tried to. So we have been, I have been since 2019 pushing for schemes that would allow Hong Kongers to come to the US. A couple of things I wanna just touch on because I think you brought it up. The BNO scheme actually, there's no limit necessarily, the limit is who has BNO status. There are some challenges though, right? That the BNO scheme actually requires people to have, for example, probably around 5,000 pounds upfront to be able to access and apply for that scheme, to be able to demonstrate that they can support themselves with a job when they arrive in the UK. That limits the number of people who can access that particular status. I think that's an important point that we have to keep pointing out because over the 11,000, close to 11,000 arrests of protesters since 2019 in Hong Kong, a majority of them were young and under 25, they don't have the criteria to actually meet those. So we have to kind of look at the schemes and reevaluate them differently. The US has given, and I've worked directly on some limited handful of humanitarian parole visas of people who are in particular danger of being arrested, but we're definitely very much pushing and have been for other schemes to be put in place. One of the things that we were able to do successfully last year was to implement by the president what is called the defer enforced deportation, meaning that anyone from Hong Kong who is in the US as of last year in June, actually in July, even if their visa, whatever visa there are expires, they will not be forced to return to Hong Kong at all, indefinitely at this point. They get renews every 18 months, but those are the kind of incremental steps that are really critical. And I think to your point, and I'll end with this, that it is very important. I mean, what better messaging is there to be for the Chinese government to say that, we're angry that you're giving people a choice and that people are choosing with their legs to walk away. The Chinese is rightfully always complaining about sanctions and all these other things. And the reason why I pushed for these humanitarian, immigration, refugee asylum protection is because it is probably the most powerful message you can send that the PRC and the Beijing and Hong Kong are cannot argue against is people exercising their freedom to walk away under this repressive regime that they're now under, to go somewhere else. And for America, for other countries to say that, we're more than welcome. You're more than welcome here because we believe in your freedom and your choice and your self-determination. Yeah, and it runs parallel to all those Russians who are leaving Russia as we speak. Very powerful message about what's happening in Russia. A very powerful... It's interesting that the government now in Hong Kong keeps trying to claim that people aren't leaving. So again, the message is very clear. They're very sensitive to what in fact is happening that people are leaving. So that as I'm sure Putin is over what's going on with these young men fleeing Russia. Well, we're almost out of time. I guess I'd like Samuel, if you don't mind, can you kind of summarize the message you'd like to leave with people when they watch this takeaway, if you will? Well, so I think that we do live in a world where our attention span is short. There's always crisis earning at different parts of the world. Here's what I have come to, I've been encouraged and energized over the past few days. The campaign for Hong Kong and the fight that Michael and I have been engaged in over a long time now. It's about people awakening to their own political agency. And that's not unique to just the US. That's not unique to Europe. That's not a Western phenomenon. We're watching that right now in Iran where people are exercising and expressing and manifesting that sense of political rights and agency. We're seeing that in Russia, where thousands of people besides fleeing were also protesting against the war. We're seeing the Ukrainians exercising that both in not just political way, but in military actual tangible fighting for their rights. And so that's for me is what connects the dots here and what makes this in a way an inevitable push. However long and slow and frustrating it might be, we're moving for because it might not be this protest. It might not be this particular war. It might not be this particular legislation. But together they are moving in that direction of people determining for themselves individually and collectively their future. And so I think that the message I want people to say is that these are all connected. We are all connected. And that any one of those small pieces in themselves might not be enough. But we can move towards this destiny together if we connected up. Michael, can you give us some thoughts about this summary and integration of this conversation? Your takeaway, if you will. Well, I think for me it's important in part because it's in Hawaii. And Hawaii is a state where a majority of the population actually comes from Asia. Historically their ancestors, it's so it's very well connected to Asia. And so people will be talking if they watch this, they'll talk to their relatives in Hong Kong and elsewhere in the region. And I think then they can get the message that Samuel's talking about and appreciate that each one of them has some role to play in distributing information and sharing that information and sometimes organizing collectively as Sam described the Ukrainians doing in Washington this week, Ukrainian-Americans. So I think a sense of hopelessness we sometimes face in our politics can be overcome by that sense of hope that what you care about actually matters and that you can be a part of the process of solution as you are here, Jay, in conducting this show. Well, I must say that gives me a certain amount of optimism, what you're talking about. And it also reinforces the point as Samuel made so well and you, Michael, too, that we have to see this on an international level. We have to see it as protection of the liberal world order and of a robust nourishing kind of interdependence rather than one where one party takes advantage of the other. Thank you so much, John. And thank you, Michael, for connecting us with Sam and Sam, thank you so much for coming on the show. And maybe we can set up something where you can teach us the fundamentals of lobbying at a later time. I would be happy to. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Sam. Aloha, you guys. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. And LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.