 Wonderful, wonderful. Okay, let's just, Nancy, we'll start right at the beginning. Okay. Tell us a little bit about your early life, because your father and your grandparents have a very interesting history. Yes. Um, is this on? Can you hear me? I guess you can hear me. Yes. Um, my father and his parents, um, fled Nazi Germany. And at the beginning of September 1939, now if any of you are World War II officials, you will well know that on September 1st, 1959, you know that on September 1st, 1939, it were invaded Poland, instantly creating World War II. Um, the ship that my father and his parents were destined to fly to this country on was, it was either Norwegian or Swedish, I don't remember at the moment. But they had to take a tugboat out of the harbor in England to their ship. Of course, because both Norwegian, Norway, and Sweden are generally neutral countries, so the ships flew without a strike for war pay. And would not bring the ship into the harbor. So my father and his parents made it here by that much. What shaped you as a child? Shaped me as a child. My battle with my parents. That's quite, it's very deep. My continuous battle with my parents. Yeah. Um, that really was about it. Tell us more about that, when we were preparing for the city of Euboe. You have some extraordinary history there. Um, my father was not a bad man. He had a fuse about as long as from here to there. But once you reached there, look out. He also was not unreasonable. There were a number of times that he said things or did things that I said they were some of the smartest things he ever did in his life. My mother was mentally ill and one of those unfortunates that refused to admit or believe she was mentally ill. So that was always a battle because my father basically, God love him, did not understand psychology. So that was not until almost the end of his life when we had some conversations that he had actually understood. A little bit of my mother and myself. I'm my mom's daughter. Yeah. What things did he come to finally understand? Um, when my mother going through my death course, um, came upon a pack of cigarettes. Of course she had a cow and three more. And, uh, my father, God love him, put that pack of cigarettes. He was a smoker. I remember, I remember when my father went to cigar and pipe rather than cigarettes. Because cigarettes went up to 50 cents a pack. And she used to make them out of cigarettes. Well. So that's a while back. Um, but there was a drawer in the kitchen. A bottom drawer that he kept his pipe tobacco on the cigars and whatnot. And one night I don't know my mother. She transferred a TV or whatever. I happened to be in the kitchen and he happened to be in the kitchen. And he took me aside and he said to me, well, he said, I can tell you why you shouldn't smoke. I can tell you this. I can tell you that. I can tell you the next thing. I can tell you because I had chronic bronchitis as a child. You shouldn't smoke. He said, I also know that I can't make you not smoke. He said, but do me a favor. Do us both a favor. Please don't smoke in front of your mother. And then he pulled out that pack of cigarettes because she found it in my desk drawer. And he said, if you want your cigarettes, here's where they are. That's just one of the numerous occasions that he showed that he was pretty, oh, what a beautiful puppy. He showed all this that he showed that he wasn't quite as stupid as some people thought he was. But your father called you many sticks of dynamite put together. What does that mean? My father was a short man. He came up to about here on me. I was the tall one in the family. I might say still the next tall. And he always said that with his long temper and when you get to the end of it, that he was many sticks of dynamite put together. And one day in the kitchen again, we were having a little confrontation. And he reminded me of that phrase that he was many sticks of dynamite put together. And I just looked at him. I was in my mid teens probably and I just looked at him and I said, yeah. So what am I? And he looked me up and he looked me down. And then he said, you're a lot of sticks of dynamite put together. And I've always said that was one of the smartest things my father ever said. He realized at that moment that if he wasn't real careful, I was going to take this off. As a child, you said you tried to actually control your parents. What was going on there? Well, it was a battle for control. I didn't realize that until I saw my first psychologist. But it was a battle for control between me and my parents. My first real psychologist that I saw, he told me at one point, he said, I don't understand, Nancy, what hold do your parents have over you? As former children, we all know what kind of hold our parents have over us. And I was completely confused. I was like 19 at the time. He said, you are such a strong, capable, blah, blah, blah woman. And this is after he had met my parents. And he said, your parents are so clumsy and they just don't have it. They aren't there. And I don't understand what control they have over you. It took me about another five, ten years before I really figured out what to keep on by that. But I finally did and that was a good thing. But I and my parents were a constant battle for supremacy. And we were that. I'll try to make it a real short story. My sister and I, my sister is six years older than me. I don't ever remember playing with my sister. So I must have been pretty young. And my mother told this tale and my sister remembered the rest of it. That we were playing and we were playing something my mother remembered. And my sister said, I was a beautiful princess. And I just sat there and I kind of started smirking. I was like, let me guess, I was the handsome prince. And my mother just kind of looked at me and she was like, yes, I think that's what you were. And relating to that point, one time my sister and I were playing teams in Queens or whatever and my mother said to me and I was prancing around the house with my blankie, my robe. And my mother said to me, Nancy, you're a girl. Girls can't be kings because I was the king. And I looked at her and I said, I'm the king. And she kept telling me, you can't be the king. You have to be the queen, you're a girl. And I guess I never learned that lesson because I kept saying I'm the king and my parents never quite understood that whole kind of stuff somehow. But as a child, you were also exploring a lot of sadistic activity. Tell us about that. Well, amongst, yeah, making my parents gray. I always said I was proud of the gray hair my father ever got. Yeah, I had an interesting relationship with flies. Now I can't even imagine being able to grab a fly out of the air on the table or wherever anymore. But when I was probably four, five years old, I used to manage to nail flies. And I didn't flatten them. There was no fun in that. Some of them, I pulled their wings off. I watched them spin around. I found that quite fascinating. And some of them, I pulled their legs off and watched them. Well, the ones about the wings walked around. The ones without the legs spun around. And then I planted them in the tea plant, which was a plant there in the front of the house. Yeah, and all of them. That later on I tried, I put a pebble way and grabbed a fly. And I put a pebble over there that were gray. And then later on I tried to dig them up and I never could find them and I never could figure out why I couldn't find them. Every once in a while, every couple of years, my mother would comment that were the hell or all these pebbles in the tea plant. But yeah, I was sadistic after her early age. Well, your first partner, Denise, really encouraged you to explore SM. Please tell us about that. What was going on there? Well, she was a bottom. She was in the SM. There was no question about that. And my follower said she saw what she liked and what she saw. And she took me in hand and she basically gave me the basics. So this is how you do it. This is what you don't want to do. And we learn a lot from each other. Such as? Well, I learn pretty much everything from her. What are some of the main things that she taught you? The rules of what she don't do, what she don't want to do, what she do if you do something you really don't want to do. I'm proud of you. Was there anything that you found just mind-boggling or was there anything that really excited you as you were learning this process? Well, it all excited me. Mind-boggling? No, because I was already, when I used to go to Carroll Street with you, down an old town. There used to be, every Sunday evening, a couple of guys in leather fan-dancing. Fan-dancing has always fascinated me. That's what fascinated me. But intrinsically, I understood what they were about. I understood what the leather meant. Nobody had to tell me that. I had a real basic understanding of that. From where or came from. How did that evolve for you? Well, just watching people, learning from people, by watching them. I mean, I never, Denise was my own mentor if I could say that I had a mentor. Other than that, I've been my own mentor of other people's mentors. Because it's just, it's very natural for me. It just, has always been that. How many people would you say you've mentored over the years? Oh, thank God. There was probably more than I know. But if you said that, yeah. Sky, you. At least. There's a fair amount of people, but I've mentored in one way or another. Is there any recurrent bit that you've shared with every single one of those people or has it varied person by person? Well, it always varies depending on the person, depending on the situation. But the basic is don't do anything to somebody else that you really want them to yourself. Or at least be willing to try. Okay. You came out very young. You came out at age 17. Tell us about the gay community that you experienced at that time. Oh my God. That was just prior to the AIDS crisis starting. It was in 1977, 78, 79. It was Sunday afternoon movies at Carol Speakeys in Holtown. Cheeks, Cherries, Broadway Review. I'm sorry, Broadway Limited. All the bars you can imagine. It was play and be playing. That's what the guys were looking for. That's what they got. So for example, what sort of things did you experience in that situation? Was there anything new and wonderful for you there? Well, I was a dancer. I loved to dance. So if anything, that was the joy of it. But sometimes... There were a couple of John Waters movies that they showed it to me. There were a few scenes that I remember that I was just cracking up at all. I was the only woman there and the guys were going... I was just cracking up. Things like that. The Chicago's double A meat market was your home bar back in those days. That bar and some of the other bars are sort of the thing of legend nowadays. Tell us about the old days. Yes. Tell us about those places. What did you experience there? Camaraderie, neighborhood, friendship. A few assholes. There's always a few assholes. No matter where you are. Leather, non-leather. Any particular feelings that come to mind or emotions that come to mind? I mean, I'm not... I love Chuck of Tuchets. But the new Tuchets, he's not the old Tuchets and every time that I go in there, I want to cry. Because those are the numbers I have. The old Tuchets on Clark Street and Carol Speakeasy, double A meat market. A few other places. You're giving me the impression that that was very precious to you that those places were almost magical. Yes. What... Can you give us an example or two of why you feel so strongly about them? It was just the memories made, the people met, the friendships made, the events sometimes. I mean, it's like GLLA. I love GLLA. I missed GLLA last year. I hated this much. Back this year, and I feel just like I'm home again. So I love GLLA. Why do I love GLLA? Because it is opening and welcoming to everyone. And there are not many events in this country or abroad that I'm aware of that are that. I mean, what... When Mother United Chicago, which was the club that I was a founding member of, first came out in 1981, Mr. Ellis was nodding his head. We told people they'd say, well, what are you about? And we told people we were pansexual. Well, most people at that time had no idea what pansexual meant. They assumed it meant bisexual. Not even bisexual as in sex, but that we had men and women in the same club, which we were the first real out club to do that in Chicago. If they would have known that two of our first members, full members, were a head couple, they would have fallen off their heels. What are your thoughts or what were you feeling about being a woman in the leather bars at that time? You were probably one of the only ones. Well, one of a few. And I respected the fact, understood and respected the fact that I was in a man's space. And I tried not to turn on their toes if somebody didn't want to deal with me. I didn't push myself in their face. I didn't push anybody's face. Most of the time, they introduced themselves to me. That was their business. Otherwise, I wouldn't go about their way. I had a few times that I was pushed around, elbowed down the bar, you know, all that kind of thing. I had a sense, experiences in vanilla bars, so no big deal there. That's really, I mean, well, their bars are it. But you had an altercation in the old touche bar. You really, when we were preparing for this, it's quite a story. You really established yourself as one of the guys, so please share that. It must have been some holiday weekend, as I recall. And it was at the old touche, and we were upstairs, and there was a bunch of our old group of our friends, and I was sitting on a bar stool, and one of my friends, he was a pretty slight man. I had my leg up on the stool rail, and he was kind of sitting on my knee, which was not uncommon. I had guys back up to me and fuck me out many times. And there was this very, very drunk guy who shouldn't have even been there, and he certainly wasn't in code. And he was kind of wandering around, and he kept wandering closer and closer and closer. And finally, he just really sat on my friend's lap, who was sitting on my knee. And so my friend shoved him in, all himself on the stool, and he came back again. And my bird, putting my cigarette out on his arm, did not face him. So I realized that this was a real good one. And he came at my friend again, and I don't know what I said to him or whatever, but it wound up with him throwing his drink at me. Of course, everybody, their dog, and I was like, oh my God, are you okay? I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. I got up off the stool, took a couple steps, and took him square in the ass. And I kept my eye on him after that because he still didn't have the brains to go downstairs. And I kept my eye on him after that, but I also realized very quickly that every guy back there was watching him. And if it was circling maneuver, he came a little too close, there would be somebody stepping in between us or somebody bumping into him or whatever. So I was like, okay, I guess I made my name tonight here. They understand that I really can take care of myself here. They don't need any big, broad, new hands to do it. So the next weekend, what really told me that something had changed was the next weekend. There was this gentleman, and we always called him S&M for stand-up modeling. I don't know if he actually played or if he really was stand-up model. He was very good looking stand-up model. Head-to-foot leather sunglasses. I've never understood dark sunglasses in a dark bar. Ah, the fuck do you see a damn thing? But dark sunglasses, the whole nine yards. And he always stood in the same corner or two shape. And I have to have him when I'm walking through a bar or first walk in, and I kind of look around and see who's there, whatever, most of us do that, I think. And the next weekend after this altercation, walked in, walked past him, looked at him and say a word. We never had anything he never admitted that I existed, so I just left him to me. But as I walked past him, he and his capped head went like this, and I went like this back. And I must have had my jaw to the floor because very soon his friend of mine asked me what was wrong, you know? So I told him when I was like, you're kidding, and I was like, no. And that was when I realized that I really, I had made my name for myself, so. Wonderful. What's your favorite kink? These days, unfortunately, it's watching other people. Unfortunately. Amen. Better than nothing, yeah. And the red ones are better than some. But plugging, I would say. What about it, do you like so much? I just, I like to throw, I like to snap. Oh, sorry. I like to throw, I like to snap, I like reaction. Okay. What challenges do you see for the letter BDSM LGBTQ community? Oh my God, what challenges aren't there? For example. I'm sure most of us have been seeing it lately, especially that there's a lot of not so nice words, not so nice actions, not so nice whatever going on. And until we come together as a family and we kick those kind of people on their ass out the door. Amen. We're not going to have what it takes to stand up for ourselves and really get what we deserve and what we have earned. Well said. Well said. How would you like to be remembered by the community? Oh my God. Well, I'm sitting here, so. There's how I want to be remembered. She made it out the stairs. Get that down. I wasn't afraid to step up for somebody that needed help to step down when it was time to rearrange some brain cells. Well, I know in preparation for this chat a lot of people were very pleased that you were coming to the interview. That's quite an honor for you. How do you feel about that? I don't feel any different today than I did 30-ish years ago. 30-ish years ago when Leather, United, and Chicago I first really started and our name had been going from coast to coast. People started hearing about us with members going to different runs and events, people seeing who we were. I started at Double Amy Market which was our home bar. I started having people that I had no clue who they were giving in mind that I am not a naturally gregarious person. You have no idea what it takes for me to sit up here and talk to y'all. I'm very shy and retiring by nature unless I need to stand up and open up my mouth for some reason. So I would start having, oh, and another thing, a horrible number of names. I'd be absolutely horrible. I just, after 15, nearly 20 years, I just now have remembered the name of my doctor's nurse. That's pretty bad. She's one of the exceptions. I don't know why I could remember her name. But it's pretty bad. So when people would come up to me from a person's country at Double A and introduce themselves and say I'm so-and-so and blah-blah-blah from Seattle or San Francisco or Nebraska or wherever the hell. And I'd start introducing myself. Hello, I'm Nancy Weinberg. I'm President of the World Bank. Like, a lot of title holders have their schtick. That's what enables them to do what they're doing as title holders. That was my title. That was my schtick. Hello, I'm Nancy Weinberg and I'm the President of the United States of Chicago. And before I got halfway through my schtick, they'd say, I know who you are. Blah-blah-blah. I'm assuming it never showed. I must be a pretty good actor. I was just standing there. I didn't know if I was paying attention to what they said after that because I was standing there going, how the hell do you know who I am? I've never met you before in my life! So that's it in the nutshell. That really is. And I'm very honored to be here. I'm very honored for the trust and the respect that so many people have given me over the years. It means more to you, to me, than you can ever know. Thank you. So one question I'd like to ask each of my subjects. What's the biggest misconception about you? I really don't know. Because people who really don't walk up to me and abuse themselves and be my friend have the puts before they do it and the people who don't, I really don't know what they think. I'm sure a lot of them think, at least in the earlier days, a lot of them thought I was a badass bitch. Sitting or standing, I can't be. It just depends on the situation. But I'm not necessarily a very nice person. I can take a lot more crap from people than most people realize or take themselves. That all depends on what I see on them. Well, Nancy Lee, I would like to thank you very much. Thank you.