 Recording is on I'm not a big fan of the blue particle and all the proto particle and all that kind of stuff like man I don't like alien creatures that do weird things But everything else about the expanse. I really really loved Including the the weird character with the fedora who comes in and comes out and you know all those things like the thing I really love that it's a space thing and they do real physics and then there's this Indian there's this weird thing where they also Like totally ignore some stuff like the amount of time it gets to play Yeah, or the difference one the weirdest ones is the difference between velocity and acceleration they kind of pretend that acceleration is velocity and you know, it's like You know, we're burning at 1g. We're burning at 3g's And it's like if you're burning at 3g's you're going faster and faster and faster and faster You're not just going as you know, it's not a car. I Do think I thought they did actually take that hook out when they're talking about the timelines They're assuming accelerating halfway there and decelerating halfway when they do travel. They're doing that. Yeah, they do that But then they're the effects on it on the body or something like that It's like we have to get some plates really fast So it's like well do a short burn and then you know and then you're going fast You know, but they burn the whole way instead of like just a short burn Huh, and they also sort of jack in and put like fluids in their body when they do the same as burns Yeah, but I thought the burn was still like a Jutify because I guess if you want to go as fast as possible, you will burn how the way No, and I think they want to go as fast as possible But there are times when they they it's it's like They don't want to go as fast as possible. They want to go fast So because and they want to make it hard, right? They want to make it hard to go fast I guess is is the thing so it's like you see the undersecretary, you know, she's like You know, it's like dude, you're already going really fast So in my brain, there's a thought titled a Big inspiration for OGM is to build the f-scene drive for civilizations memory and decisions And now I know what that means. I've heard that a bunch of times before Sorry to start off. Oh, don't you know starting off with the the expense is a great thing. It's beautiful. Yeah I have to stop room service Cool When it when it now it's over, right? Then we have all this innovation in you know, Dali stable diffusion all these And of course, we are trending towards the generation and there's so many experiments And I'm like, you know what this will like have many downsides But if we can get an again infinite expanse episode generator Totally worth it. Yeah, I thought kind of the same thing. Yeah Yeah And I really like the the interface they use very tiny on the arms like a little hole, but you know like pushing and yeah Yes, pull and push in the hour. I was sort of inspired by that. Yeah And wait, what was the thing that was the inspiration that I missed And you know when they have this, you know, they actually can send data to each other by UI is her. Yes They slide it more but and and also like, you know, they have this Holographic more things with them. They are like, oh, I'm done with this or actually bring it in And so several of you know this already But I Through the course the last couple months I've sort of made friends with John undercoffler who is the guy who created the G speak interface Which is the interface that Tom Cruise uses to search for pre-ca for pre-crime Which is actually a functional user interface that lets you do things exactly like that. Oh, yeah Yeah, it's a multi user interface where you can throw things to each other screens You can then manipulate them with gestures and a bunch of other stuff Super interesting, but what what does it mean G speak? I will send I will add a link. Thank you This should do it there And his company oblong got bought and sort of along with it the rights to all that kind of stuff, but But anyway, it's still out there And he's been on a couple of the podcast episodes that I've been recording for beta works In fact, my It's going really well My favorite of the episodes is up there right now only on Spotify, but I'll share that link because it's a it's a really I think it's an episode everybody here would really like It should be I'm a big fan of YouTube over all those things as you know But but here it is on Spotify and we're doing video and audio only broadcasts And this Spotify one actually has the video embedded somehow. I don't know exactly how all that works since I'm not familiar with all of the exit avenues anymore But it's quite cool Well, yeah, looking forward I mean want to catch up I haven't what's up with you Get that report in Yeah, we can do chicken. Yeah. Yeah makes sense And I just come in here. I'm thinking of Yeah, so are we having a bit all over the place? So let's see if I can see us. Uh, just like this And we're burning we're almost hitting the limit of notes the note length in pleasure of the link So it feels a bit like exciting the type. It's like I'm gonna get I'm gonna get an error. Um, this is the big thing Yeah, so, um I've been way spread thin, you know, when you feel spread thin But that's improving so I'm happy about that. Yes. Um, and this some uh, uh, do they call it adulting? Adulting it's hard. I don't like adulting. No, it's like Very hard and then they're under audience. Uh, so yeah, talk return. I know I did my talk return. Yes And all these things but before I actually delivered like a draft Should be readable at least until around 50% of it of the uh, I got a related chapter for this book After editor. Yeah, so yeah, I will get some more feedback probably but I think it's getting somewhere somewhere I don't know if good or bad but somewhere and um Yes, I guess I um I've been like also like quite involved in social cope Uh, you know with the Elon Musk um Like uh exodus The favorite it's been exciting the most couple the musk apocalypse Yes and like, uh, which you know, it's like, uh We we also have like a more constructed frame. I have apocalypse. Well, you know, it's I don't know enough what comes after apocalypse in uh in the bible but uh And uh, yeah, so I so a lot of movement there and like interesting opportunities. I think when it comes to perhaps um I guess Exploring a bit more what I um A coordination point Looks like for the faders Uh on top of what we already have Uh, because you know like to some extent, you know, uh We're getting it's like an amazing, uh, stress test for the failures in many ways, you know Like instances are having issues below and so on But also it's like a lot of people just like even what people were intentions to like get out of twitter They don't do it. They fall through cracks. So thinking about the sign up flow And you know, uh, and whether we could do anything, you know, perhaps like a non greedy entity that could say You want I think I don't know if this was made brought up This here by Chris last time, you know, like Or what I read it Perhaps you want, you know, this is the user and I want And then this router will say well, these are all the instances that have the user name I you know, and this is what their trade, you know, they're the trades So like sort of like flipping the sign up a bit on his head. Um Yeah, so some discussion on that and uh on the cop side Uh and some other work, but uh, you know, less than I would like but you know How much of your chapter for the book is actually agora artifacts and is agorified Right, so it started us fully on the hour and there's still a draft there Right now we move to wool dogs for the review flow But the idea is still to sink back to markdown Mark on with things fabulous, okay I'm actually using hour up, you know, what I call our protocol perhaps in an exercise of overreach Wait, which is like outlines plus an intention semantic intention Yes, so it's gonna be fully synced And I actually would like to perhaps have like a Now what I set up just with a chapter of the book Just to see how they work in In context, I guess and that sink back to markdown. Is that just your intention or is that everybody who wrote a chapter's intention? Everybody, yeah, because they just want that actually awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice And the draft you want to see is go Yes, that's in dogs And yeah, so I guess I we don't replace but things are starting to like sort of like converge towards like perhaps the end of the year And next year, you know, I will try to perhaps have fewer focuses some more focus Yes And what are you? What are you up to? Um, I'll check in then we can keep going. So I'm right now in near Tahoe at what the plate the place formerly known as Squaw Creek But at a resort that still calls itself the Squaw Creek resort. So it is Snowy outside with evergreens. I'm here because the linux foundation is having its member summit this week and yesterday april She was uh, basically contracted with a month ago to give a keynote speech which she gave yesterday Then when she when she got that gig she wrote brian billendorf and said hey brian Did you have anything to do with my getting this gig and he says no didn't even know about it But is jerry coming and he's she's like no, you know, no plan for him to come And so brian says oh, he should totally come and he should be my guest So he did that and then i'm also going to help brian facilitate a meeting on friday So i'm actually staying longer april flew home today But i'm staying longer and lots of really interesting things i'll tell two short stories One is yesterday. I'm standing talking to a guy named remi who works for Medicaid and medicare it Doing open sourcey stuff And I asked him a question about tom monarchy and vista and and he's like I don't know the guy should I should meet this guy And then a tall gentleman with a little bit of a gray beard walks up smiling and shakes remi's hand and said It's like, you know old old friends meeting And proceeds to answer my question in full detail Jim st. Clair and he is dead in the middle of this and completely knows monarchy and vista and the whole the whole back story Proceeds to tell me that under trump. There was a no bid contract given to serner There's basically a duopoly for hospital information systems between epic and serner And there was a no bid contract given to serner for 12 billion dollars to to to gut and replace The vista system that that tom monarchy helped design way back 30 years ago. I think Etc. Etc. Which everybody knows is not going to work blah blah blah blah blah And then he goes into detail and then he tells me about open air open EHR Which is an open source project to do electronic health records Which is the thing that maybe maybe ought to be done instead that would be like the cleaner path Which and there's no clean migration from vista to open air But that's that's like what he would think would be the the better way to go because that's kind of what I was asking him So anyway, I was marveling at the serendipity of My asking an arcane question of one person and then the answers just walking out walking up as I asked the question so that was just And then this morning over breakfast I sat next to a guy Uh, I sat next to two people one of whom I met yesterday Who I barely know who's part of a new person two weeks into the linux foundation Then he's talking to a fellow who's chinese who works for future way I'll put a link in in the chat and And future way is what it may sound like it's the it's the u.s futures lab arm of huawei Here's the link And huawei is in all sorts of hot water about Possibly being a suspect provider of whatever But they're big supporters of open source It turns out that huawei has had to not and I don't know if it's a fork But they have something called open harmony that I haven't gone and looked at yet But they've basically been forced to build their own infrastructure because huawei was cut away from the google infrastructure and other sorts of things So they're busy using some mixture of open source and proprietary to go build out their own things And there was a very interesting conversation that I'd never thought about about how do you bridge? How do you bridge open source projects across dangerous difficult political boundaries? And maybe there's a follow-on question of can the open source communities be a diplomatic arena For improving relations between political parties that are not happy with each other Because of open source and because of the way open source works and all that kind of stuff So we kind of we just barely cracked open that conversation this morning And then a couple other people arrived at this little table and so we went in different directions But I was just my my brain was like oh my god. That's that's like really interesting to me Yeah, it sounds like yeah, essentially the potential open source to be the bridges. No, yeah And so this so I'm at the linux annual member summit, which is really where they're I'm blown away by the number of open source projects that linux foundation is stewarding or hosting like I'm genuinely impressive I and and Jim Zemlin is the The director and he's been the director for like 19 years or something crazy like that in our world Um, it seems like he's done a great job because he did the he did the kickoff talk yesterday morning and and he was like And here's an update on what we're up to and you're like wait, what that too. No way that this really Look really cool And then separately i'm i'm trying to articulate better What I call the relate project which is like how to stand up a shared memory like what what institutions or mechanisms Would it take to actually get done what ogm is trying to do and what some of the rest of us are trying to do? Um, so any and all advice on that extremely welcome I should have a I should have a drafty version of something like it in the next few days That's my next goal Nice. So, um, you said a use the term you said x memory Collecting a shared memory share memory. Yes Very nice. Yeah, I mean that that seems very I would love to read that Yes, and like actually one of my goals is to actually make more time to read Because it's the last six months. I feel like a desert It's not in that sense and I should we should trade places because I have a hundred tabs that I try to make my way through reading And what I need to do is right I need to I need to step into the the the seat that you were occupying all this time getting your chapter written Well I'm also procrastinating and think of like what I'm gonna do. I don't do anything like that Yeah anyway Bentley Pete you want to check in I got to mute before Bentley. Um I have a comment not a check-in. So maybe I should do a check-in later, but um the after reading Cory doctor's Uh recent post about macroeconomics the end of the road to surfdom He talks about intellectual property essentially um and property rights and things like that and It's it's interesting now looking at How the u.s. Has tried to keep um technology stuff out of China's graphs and so Huawei got you know Can't can't use android as much as it wants to exactly. Um, but that's actually kind of an artifact of economic warfare Not necessarily fairness um in that essay Cory says what happens is when you're an up and coming nation You steal IP And when you're uh an established nation you suppress, you know, you you you declare all of all of ip is mine And I can rent it to you. I'd be happy to rent it to you, but you can't have it, right? So it's interesting Having a new lens on on the china android Open source, etc. And it's also um really interesting like the story of Benjamin franklin among many others because franklin made a living as a printer in philadelphia Basically printing things that were British public British books with paying no royalties or anything like that And the british authors were like really pissed at the american publishers because printers because they were you know They were getting no benefit at all from having their works reprinted here So that was one of many forms of piracy that we were engaging in And the history of chocolates on this front is really cool also with the swiss confectioners IP being stolen by british confectioners who were quakers who then in the early industrial illusion set up Fries cad berries and round tree were all quakers who basically borrowed the fondant method from from switzerland and went and made chocolate companies in in the uk The history of ip is so fun Yes, and perhaps we can end it Or like shape it no, I mean, I don't know but I got I keep thinking I guess copyright is one of my favorite things to rail against I actually I for this closure like I I try not to feel rage or like anger in you know in these uh in these ways except against these concepts Or cooperation sometimes like meta But like, you know, like this is my uh one of my unique pleasures and I just copyright is like this kind of thing where like I I I guess I don't know if I'm reaching the quad. I'm interested in knowing the whether we all align on this it's like It's I think it's the kind of thing where I when I ask her around like does anyone think the copyright law makes sense That's this now. I never found anybody who said yes And uh, and I think that's an experience that many of us have you know, I guess This this approach may go back to civil disobedience I approach in the sense of like question these laws and like Like try to find someone that Can defend them who is not in a position of power I mean, it's because you're not talking to people at the major copyright industries who are all in favor of this, right? I mean, and that's the only people I think well, not the only people Uh, but that's what it is. Hey chris Hey Sorry, my 10 o'clock ran long and then for some reason jitzy would not let me join at all. So Oh, that's actually glad you're here We may get access to um, uh a private jitzy instance Okay, and that may solve some issues in green recording probably Yeah, I'll remind everybody that I can only record the first hour It doesn't work when I try to keep going and maybe if someone else tries recording at the hour and we meld those that would work, but It doesn't work when I try to start it again So so one so, yeah, it's a copyright anyway. It's like, uh, I don't know if it's worth the I mean I I think it's related to what we mean anything because here right because to some extent I think of Of the wire field of what we are in as the commons the knowledge commons. No, it's like I guess one of the framings I know if this everybody we all align with with that But like I guess we can translate but something like the knowledge commons and copyright and intellectual property will be the way to enclose it No Like so the worst case will be what like we we develop together the people develop together something really unique and new and beautiful And then it's co-opted Uh, that will be like probably like one of the worst cases a failure or more we need to protect against no Well, it's one of the interesting things happening to masted on right now Right is that like masted on objects to the far right using masted on instances and there's a fork of masted on Under truth social and gab both they both were like, oh cool open source software because our software sucked And and so the answer is you have to let them use it, but you can't you don't bridge to them So you don't replicate their messaging out of the network, which is interesting I think that's a it feels to me like a sort of a reasonable compromise in a weird way Completely yes. Yes, and you know in the copyright This is one of the things where like I'm I mean my approach is very naive, right? I don't talk to enough IP attorneys for sure. I don't get all out of my way to do that But so and I lose around myself. It's like, you know, people, you know, like we all do I guess We are mostly aligned I guess but like To me will be like well Perhaps everybody should be able to to choose their own copyright right and groups that define copyright in similar ways Are federating right like intellectual Like resources I guess It's sort of like, you know To some extent copyright is also an ethical stance. Like, you know, these are facets This is like, you know, or like or like, you know far right or whatever how you want you want to define it So that's a solution for you for a fediverse. It seems let's see Although the fed block fed block You know, the federation of locally is an interesting meta problem for federation I guess uh Right because it's sort of like The recursive problem But you know for copyright I could see that working the same is like if people left it groups left Each other alone And so like yeah, you define copyright this way you go ahead and do your business and we define copyright like this Just leave us alone That could be perhaps that could be an equilibrium But but nation states don't like that apparently All this stuff is so tangly um I have an opportunity. This is a side note, but it's also maybe part of a check-in In a week next Tuesday. I'm doing a one-hour session for the mim business school in in Lviv Actually in kiv ukraine because I met the director of the business school when I gave my speech in lat in latuenia And so she invited me to give a talk and the framing of the talk is basically rebuilding ukraine So any and all advice suggestions on rebuilding ukraine? I've got sort of my own ideas of what to put into the talk, but I would love If you have any thoughts on this, I will absorb them and remix them into a presentation But I think it's a fun opportunity to Put some ideas out that might be helpful I'll drop a weird link which is Reddit no stupid question. How to prepare your house for an active wartime And it's from an ukrainian like 10 months ago But thinking through I I think you know like here's here's the bottom So let's work up from there or something The biggest thing really is to get us economy on your side the way japan did after And that brings in a huge influx Which I think given their level of education and ability to work You know could catapult them at least for a decade the problem then becomes what do you do after you do really well after that first decade of Material because then japan almost started to then over swamp us And then there was a kickback for the next two decades as a result of that So the question is how to do it one of the big issues That japan did in that post-war section is they had zero infrastructure So they had no buy-in costs. So they were able to take massive chances on new developing technology Which they were able to license for really cheap And that put them ahead for 50 years In some sense ahead of us economy. They were also given a leg up in lots of different ways I know one little story from a story I heard at a retreat years ago where there were a bunch of photo geeks sharing stories And at the end of world war two like the russians came in and basically took Every machine that they could unscrew and take they took off into the soviet union to go build their own factories and do their own stuff But then when they got to the size factories Basically what happened was a lot of the plans and ip The americans got to first and they basically took that and gave it to japan to start companies like nicon And so the japanese optics and camera industry come out of this seeding of German optics technology and ip and then the russians went to i think checkers lvakia And there's sort of there's a bunch of cameras like size icon and a bunch of others that come out of Out of the size kind of technology, but become That becomes the hub of Eastern block camera technology So there's a bunch of of cameras from you know legacy from there That share the same genetic roots with with japanese cameras and the whole story is super interesting It's similar to or parallel to Verner von Braun and rockets and blah blah blah I I have a weird first first person cultural account of of japan and some aftermath of that you know fast rise and then You know trying to tamp tamp them back down. It's like don't get too successful um, I worked in telco In the 80s as jerry knit. Well knows And worked with some of the japanese telco companies They had this really serious problem of learned helplessness around telecom they And I don't know how this happened, but it would be interesting to kind of use out the the historical background of it but first hand What happened was that they had decided institutionally that at&t mama at&t knew best And we're going to do anything that at&t does And that was their mantra for probably 20 or 30 years So they hampered themselves in innovation and i'm not sure if that was a reaction to being scolded by the us or Whatever they but they thought the us was great and wonderful and new all powerful and knew everything about about telecom so The the the striking thing for me was this included the breakup of at&t, which you know had good things and bad things but they're like The us has broken up at&t We're going to break up our our telcos too And they literally kind of like did the exact same thing that the us did in a microcosm in japan Making entity east and west and whatever And it was for no good reason Except that they were copycating the us because the us must know what is best for telecom It was fascinating to watch and I it was at the point where you could tell the us telecom was When jerry and I were doing this, you know back in the 80s early 90s We were super frustrated with the FCC and at&t and things like that because it was just high bounding Could not move and we saw all the cool innovations and Spectrum and fiber and all that stuff. It was happening in third world countries where they had no No built infrastructure and no, you know, I do the cost basis So it was it was you know, I so I would tell these Japanese telephone companies America is not the best example For technology in this in this area. You should invent your own stuff and just go fast go, you know go hard That's a fascinating story given what happened in automobiles Yeah, right exactly because because demings went to the american automakers and they just like you're an idiot Don't talk to us. He goes to japan and like, oh my god. You're a genius Let's do everything you're saying and they like practically destroy the american auto industry Right, so just across the hall or just across the country. Uh, they did this well He doesn't call us that Japanese demings W edwards dimming. Yeah, I'm sorry dimming. He and uh, j.m. Jeran were two Deming was more in the statistics space and quality control Um and j.m. Jeran kind of followed him up as a managerial and those two still to this day are you know probably more influential in business and industry than even You know Taylorism in the early 1900s And it's not you know, all that stuff now goes by buzzwords like six sigma Right, you know started with that. So And uh, the Toyota production system Yeah, which is kind of a grandfather Of agile in a way Although when you have big disruptions in world supply chains just in time Quite the way that apparently it's a community that can potentially be a detriment. Yeah Or any resiliency in some other manner built into those systems as a failsafe I you know, I I feel I I I guess and I don't know this at all, but I guess my my Take on the american take on just in time production Is that we cargo called it it from Toyota and whoever else Without really understanding the the cultural significance of it So I think you know, we were like, oh just in time. That's that's the headline That's the thing that we want to grab and there's a bunch of a bunch of cultural and systemic stuff around that the way Toyota interacted with its suppliers, for instance, is different than you know, they had this really tight Um socially bound link between uh, Toyota the the mothership and all of its little suppliers and so If you kind of lift just in time off of that and dump it in the us You end up with this extremely fragile system Because you haven't you haven't like you just cargo called you didn't capture the whole, you know, essence of of the larger systems There's a couple other bits of interesting history that I think we've even touched on in a previous fellowship call Uh, but there's a a concept called Obeyah, which is basically a war room where you put all your plans on the wall and Really lends itself nicely to ogeyami kind of kind of uh The devices and all that although it's meant mostly to be sort of paper But you have your plans and your dependencies and everything in there And then Obeyah is a place to carry out Ba, which is basically a japanese business culture thing that comes out of Kitaro Nishida and I'm going to shorten the story a lot Dave snowden's kinevin framework is a competitive response to the idea of ba, which was gaining a lot of traction And the reason it's called kinevin is that snowden understood he needed some kind of local cultural reference also like ba To make this other way of seeing things like stick and give it Place, right? So there's a whole bunch of really interesting history there as well We had the I had the pleasure when when I had my wiki company. We actually had some Toyota folks over to our office So the context of it was we were an enterprise wiki company So we got to hear kind of firsthand how an Obeyah works and they were describing this Room with huge walls, you know 12 footer or 15 foot walls and the whole thing was covered in paper and so people would come in and you'd work on these big sheets of paper and They would Like to to make space they wouldn't erase something They would just put another layer of paper on so they'd pull on another sheet put a piece of paper on it And so you had this ability to kind of peek under a couple layers And see the background of other stuff And I was fascinated in love and all that That's really cool my understanding of Of how Japanese companies move proposals around is that they print the proposal out And then the same proposal makes its way around and when you agree with the proposal you put your your chop You're basically Print you you stamp the proposal Wherever everybody's signatures are And the way you can tell how long a proposal has been circulating how kind of old and tired it is or how not successful It is is how thumbed up the document itself is And also when you stamp with your chop the degree from vertical that your chop is is the degree to which you disagree with the proposal But by applying your your stamp you're agreeing to move ahead anyway And that's the you know Japanese consensus management process Again, everything I just said needs to be fact-checked Of wikipedia and the different cultural ways wikipedia gets used so in japan again to be fact-checked in japan They they never create a page Without a lot of background conversation about what the page should be and A page is it's kind of like that. It sounds the same thing. You pass the page around Conceptually and when everybody's like passed judgment on it and at least agreed to to publish it Then you publish a finished page American way to do it is you you start a tiny little page with a bunch of junk on it and you just improve it Um, and then I think the german way to do it is is kind of in between those You you have a a more active background conversation But you can start with uh, you know a draft And and it's kind of like halfway between the american crazy way and the japanese crazy way, I guess There's I heard a story. I think it's in uh, indigenous malian culture They start out in a group and one person starts with the idea and the next person Repeats what they heard and maybe adds a little and then it goes around the circle and The idea slowly forms and morphs and goes from the most senior to the most junior And then it goes back up again At which point ideally the group has Heard all of the opinions and can then make some kind of decision. That's cool But you know it takes a while but the idea is that you come up with a Possibly better solution than just the the top of the company saying here's what we're going to do and elan musks it all the way to to nothing Belly's got to go in 20 minutes. I wonder if we should let him check in and belly didn't it wrote it wrote in the chapter He didn't have much of a yeah. I uh, I offered to skip um Yeah, I'm working on lots of things. I'm not sure which of those fall into fellowship of the link um So If you're trying to understand how soran is building like a horde to attack that would be like relevant No, I I understand exactly what soran's up to. So, okay, good um Any any commentary on the election process? No the perspective of a I don't think I could add any value to All the information out on the electoral process Except none of it's logical or rational. Okay, but I think everyone I think that's understood at this point Um, I guess the one thing is the uh, you know, I continue to to think about the list of thinking tools Which I know p you did uh, you had a meeting uh to work on that and are working on another channel I'm feeling like I might just Let y'all steam ahead and then come in afterwards and figure out what canonical debate lab can use um so if you would somehow I guess I'm not sure where to keep an eye on that to know when it's Um, I will keep the fellowship of the link matter most channel. Um, apprised of what's going on Right now. We're still kind of in brainstorming mode three three person brainstorming more or less And when cdl did this we had like 20 different, you know categories, so It'd be nice to see it You know your paired down list and then we can add to it and but y'all using air table in the background still at this point we we uh, we started using air table and it's one of the tools were We're using, you know, kind of like we're using hack md to brainstorm um Uh So I guess the short answer is yes um, we had I I wrote in the notes that we're making so good good, but slow progress. Um Uh, today we had a meeting. Uh, we were We're half seated in the massive wiki infrastructure too. So math is today was massive wiki wednesday we had We were talking all about the uh tools for thought map um, we spent all all of our time basically talking about um user friendliness and power And then You know is user friendly. Does that mean that it's easy to adopt? Does that mean that it's easy to use? Does that mean, you know, what's the learning curve look like on that? so We ended up kind of expanding into like three or four or five other dimensions and then pairing it back down to Just like to again so We're kind of deep in the you know, what do we what do we even talk? What do we what do we mean by something like user friendliness or power? And we didn't there's you know, so there's another half dozen Dimensions that we haven't even talked through at that level of depth so So do you think that that discussion means that the dimensions Dimension lists must come with like photo instructions don't interpret in the end or doesn't mean that To some extent people will interpret it differently. So um, what that's a great question Thank you. And where where we ended up was that Our our goal, I think Not that we really expressed this way, but I think I have a sense of the three of us Our goal is to make the dimensions useful and friendly and and easy to and easy and meaningful without a lot of discussion about, you know, why why or what? um, so um I don't know. That's where we're going. I I I'm hesitant to share the I I could totally share people into the air table but I'm kind of hesitant to because without understanding more of the Of the context of why that particular column and you know, it just it's just a mess But maybe I can share my screen Um and show you a little bit of the air table on where we are um I see as you're thinking is it the is it the japanese or the german way to uh It's a good question. Um So I that looks like a good share. So um where we're at so This, you know, even though air table is a database, uh, we're really using it as a thinking brainstorming tool. Um, so we started with Matthew's axes here Um, and I've added a few we ended up deciding that we wanted to keep track of who is the originator of of a particular one and so I think um There's one of these where I've got I I guess maybe I didn't I've I've added a few um, but we wanted to be able to distinguish between um math use Definition and to score easily description of note making and say mine or or bills Um, let me make this big too. So Um, or you know, maybe what I should do I could just well If I could try actually we could promise we could promise not to mess with it but Well, it's like, you know, it's like we have these characteristics columns. Um Uh So a lot of and and this isn't all the characteristics we might have but Without understanding why there's bills and nazis and peats, you know, it's like what the heck are you guys doing? some of this is just schema for the It's uh scaffolding for talking about, you know, the dimensions and the schemas and all that kind of stuff and so without Right because you have you have dimensions for the dimensions. Yes. Yes. We have dimensions for dimensions And then I think we we started doing This is something where I have multi select columns and then This could have been So we we started doing some scoring. Let's make a place where we could do scoring Not for the finished thing But for you know, how how useful is this score? And when I when I choose this score, you know, what does You know, how do I so so here? This is a column a classic column Uh test do not believe this score. Um, because I was just using this score as a You know, just a demo score. It's not necessarily real um But I guess where I was going with this is keeping track of This is this is a place. This is a good example. This characteristics things is a good example of where an air table I could have had another table called characteristics and then Each of those characteristics could have an owner and you know, the value of it and whatever other metadata we want About the characteristics, but it was a place where it looks like it was probably easier or not to have that overhead of the Two tables the interrelated tables. So we're just starting this way And I'm not even sure that we're really going to use this. It's a sketch, you know, a sketch for Yeah, this is the thing that we could do as we uh, so if you normalize Yes, so separately. Um, we started wanting to do comments and I'm like, well actually so that this is a good place where um I think both of these are fake comments to um But this is a link to the comments table and then the comments table We're using the Kind of the the the name value in air table As a summary and then you know, we can have expanded comments And so this can be a place where we can have a essentially comment threads on dimensions And it's clunky, you know to do that, but it also gives us a lot of fine-grained ability to to do that if we need to I don't know Take a step back and y'all may not have discussed this yet but is your Be interested know what you think but for like the this is all figuring out, you know, what the Um dimensions will be and everything but as far as the like later kind of architecture of storing this data Yep, I know, you know, massey wiki's markdown and stuff like that. Are y'all still thinking about having a back end database of the tools and the dimensions or is it all going to be stored in markdown files? Um, it's a good question I I think the answer is it's not been decided um, so this is uh Matthew's draft outline of the the project. Um So we're we're kind of here, you know, just just set up something anything kind of um, and then And then we bring it to I'm published at the link and ogm and and start talking about, you know, this thing that we ran up the flagpole um So the the so we're not You know, we're we're still brainstorming this version one is brainstorming. It's not really launch or so I think in this You know, the this is the phase where we would really talk about storing it as a database Um, I can tell you as the where we got to so far. Um, let me see if I can Um Looking for one particular I guess the dimension scheme is something like that. Um Uh, where we where I got to where we where we got to I guess in massive wiki. This isn't a good example of it, but um Where we got to was we could have a massive Maybe I should back up It's really clear that that um, there's going to be at least a json version of the the data. Um So whether that comes from Json files In the massive wiki or it is reverse Generated off of massive wiki pages with a certain amount of structure and then in the wiki page Um, or if it comes out of an air table, I it doesn't matter too much. Um, yeah, I think I will have interchangeable data and I don't know which is the inputs and outputs. That's that's cool. Yeah, that was the big concern was, um We'd like to steal the data and man handle it. Uh, yeah, make sure that was easy for me to Yeah, it's gone with your work. Awesome. Uh, and I hope people do that I hope people, you know, write tools against it or whatever and you know, convert it and whatever so Um, once I'm in me Yeah, so um, this is amazing. Thanks so much for all this work. I mean it On different levels and layers Um, uh, I guess from the other side if we think about like, uh, you know, the end result Which is we have this dimension applied to many tools Yep That's a sort of like forces like a meeting point with this other thread. I guess which is like Get that list of all the thinking tools like are going to be evaluated and we started at that earlier But I don't know if we are also working that in parallel. There will be value and also advancing that how do you see that? Uh, that's a good question and I haven't really thought about it at all Um, I I know that for for me, um, I don't even know We haven't you know, we haven't started even talking about what tools And nothing when he did score. He just used obsidian right So perhaps one if you want like uh to I don't know if you can share access to this but we call a way of like contributing Some of us without like, you know adding too many cooks to the dimensions the dimension dimension Yeah, yeah, we'll be do like just work on that list. I don't know if it helps if you Um I I think I would wait And one of one of the caution things I have, um, maybe I can do this while I'm still Sharing Um Wikipedia software, um I think I I knew this, you know, I'm wikipedia. I'm sure has a bunch of these but uh This and I don't know how good this is. I haven't visited this for a long time. Um, but You know back five ten years ago something like that um, uh a list like this Um and and wikipedia is especially in danger of this problem is they get to be comprehensive and kind of meaningless, you know So making sure that you mention all the particular wikis that you can This one it looks like there's not very many. I would I I kind of remember this used to seem like it was 100 or 200 or You know something like that at some point You know including old software that doesn't exist anymore Or it's really useful for three people in the world or whatever and then you you kind of accrete odd Things odd metadata. That's either easy to track or easy to sort or something like that. That's kind of meaningless, you know um This one doesn't look too bad anymore. So maybe this isn't the best example of a terrible collection of Software, but I've seen it happen and that's not what I want So it could be that this one's been curated by hand and that's why it's looking tidier than before It looks a lot tidier But it could also be that it just needs some major filters at the top Sort of like Bentley did when he added filters to the spreadsheet that we were starting with for the radar diagram And the major sort could be hey show me only current active major projects And then and then if you say show me everything it'll show you variants and sub variants And wouldn't it be cool if actually it had a tree view where you could see that tiddly spawn of You know, basically a biblical tiddly a biblical tree view where you can see that that so-and-so begat so-and-so begat so-and-so Which is a view I've wanted for many different things And then my question also to you and the the conversation was Have you taken that one extra step from the obsidian with the mock def numbers to trying to do the radar diagram The radar plot of it. I have to see okay Um, I'm I'm interested to do that but um, uh, and I I've looked up some Spedograph libraries actually right um, but I'm I'm behind Yeah, but it's not a high risk. I'm sure we'll figure something out. Oh, absolutely I'm just like it's like that's the one step after that will illustrate to anybody any stranger coming in why this matters And what you know what to do about it Cool Thanks, Bentley So let me do a comment or link to this table sounds great. Um, and I I'm hesitant to to share it because I kind of need to anybody who has this link It's like don't even like look at this Because it's just a mess of us playing with you know Playing with a thinking tool to see where we get to and a lot of it is useless um, so Uh, so I share this with uh with that caveat. Um, if only we had better thinking tools to think This way Yeah So I will put it for now at least Our I put out a line 54 as well. I'm putting it right now Oh in the In the uh, yeah in a head stock head stock um, I can So I was also thinking Perhaps of the You know the question of the better thinking tools of even if you go to obsidian or Once we go to maradona is it's very nice. I think once we have the That can be an initial Honestly those dimensions. I'm gonna just say what I think This goes to most things I say by the way, but here goes Those dimensions look fine to me Like I think for bootstrapping. I will be happy to like this is how what what I will do it is the american way perhaps Yeah, like them in like a page in the algorithm called dimensions Yeah And each one Of these as a weakening and then in an algorithm, you know, meaning or once a week, you know Like a space together And then we can write articles essays if you want on dimension use your friendliness And I honestly just a a dump of like our thoughts and the thoughts of our friends On what user friendly friendliness means. I think that will be an interesting artifact real is right? I agree Yeah, um the the trick is um There's you know, there's 10 like 12 or 15 Uh dimensions right now. So you could end up Essentially bike setting is what what occurs to me Um, you could end up in a large conversation about you know So so at least with the three of us Uh, you know, we can say okay, we've discussed, you know, we've discussed this enough. We don't have to I don't know And partly the reason I'm interested in we're And going to the radar diagram Is that once we start playing with the radar diagrams and having those conversations that will ought to inform the dimensions a lot I like how we're like like kids, uh looking at the toys. It's like, oh, just give me a But you know But uh, you know, uh, yes, I agree. But like also like, uh, uh I'm I'm happy to wait for I think it makes sense to have this Like smaller group like was actually putting all the time because Just like be more confident and consistent within the group, right? Yeah Yeah Matthew says another good thing about, you know, it would be lovely to have an anagora of just User-friendliness or whatever, right? But he's like and we and we kind of ended up there the three of us We're going to do it asynchronously. We're going to write a paragraph or two for each of the dimensions but He's like the thing about that is What you write about something else, right? What you write about power Interacts with how I feel about what you wrote about user-friendliness, right? So You can't have a you can't have a discussion about one One dimension without having a discussion about how that interacts with all the other dimensions at the same time, right? Only everything weren't so deeply intertwinkled Yeah, but you know like once you get to You do like just now once you get to that writing is like, oh you would just call that out. I guess, you know, like The linking between the dimensions As when you say all this really under relates with this other one That will be nice to see in the graph precisely yeah I so So it seems like a kind of a bounded problem for each of us to go away and write a couple paragraphs, you know 20 25 paragraphs and then come back together next week and you know fight and and you know Merge, you know the the conversation So that seems like a tractable problem that a few of us could do and just the more people the more participants you get the less tractable Yeah, yeah, by the way, this is just to like there's no way I will write I will I won't write 25 I will probably write four and then get distracted But the the four the the four that each person chooses probably is like another data point. Yeah. Yeah, that's really true That's a good thing yeah and and there's something about that conversation that that pete that you three are laying the groundwork for where I sort of look forward to recording that process and conversation and then sort of sitting and thinking through it because It's it's a meta conversation about the space and about the tools and about how they interact and about how we assess that and present it In a way for other people to have an easier time finding their way to the right tools for example or the meta meta meta thing In order to make it easier for newbies to come in and assemble a tool suite That interoperates properly that solves their particular version of the problem in a way that's suitable for them Right. Yeah. Yeah, like find a unchartered territory Yeah, I find like open space. No Yeah, yeah, those nice builder problems I I just went immediately. I guess to the same we have How's the similar conversations about like the charting of the favors? No, I'm going back to the initial, you know, we started with the with a favor situation and you know, I'm thinking to To a large extent, uh, these problems are very similar, right? It's like a chart in the space charting Tools in the case of favors people are mostly focused on the math on an instance But that's sort of like also closing into a particular like a dimension already Uh, so this is again shows why it's so important to start with the this dimensional discussion Uh, but I wonder if there there could be some Like reuse of what we are doing here for this for that problem or the other way around because I know already Several sites that are like oh, this is the helps you choose your instance Right. So, you know open source, perhaps we could actually if you want, we can have some dynamic built on top of that I like that And pita just asked in the chat is composability different from interoperability And I don't know if anybody else has strong strong feelings I I have a an answer So composability is internal to a system and interoperability is interest system Huh, but what if we start to say that? Um, composability across Parts of the system is that does the system boundary just grow? Yeah, okay So so the definition of the system changes and things are composable as long as they're inside the system And when you solve the interoperability problem with new External parts, then you've grown the system Yeah, okay Cool and interoperability is kind of the practical nuts and boltsy part of the whole question Which is okay great. So how do we interoperate? Is it api standards protocols or something else? Yeah, cool. Thank you Because I I'm I'm not that familiar with the word composable. I'm just deeply attracted to it It's uh, it's super useful super powerful and we and you hit exactly a really interesting place there because um It I feel like we haven't done a good job of