 The objective of this game is to what? To win, that's it, real simple, not very hard to do. And how do you win? So here's some of the ideas that you may have for the contestants to play as to how they're going to win. Because you are a key component of the winner. There is no single Regis Philbin kind of character in this thing at all, no Ann Richardson person. So a lot of people are going to be involved in making the decisions here. In order to win the game, you have to do an awful lot of different things. And one of them is going to be sticking to time limits. One of them is going to be creativity. So the list of things for the contestants that they have to do are not necessarily obvious. That's why we put the list. Now the winner gets an awful lot. We're going to be donating 50 copies, $800 worth of the cyber ethics book to the institution, educational institution of your choice for the winner. You also get free DEF CON attendance for life. You'll get one of those great DEF CON jackets. And there may be some other stuff thrown at you. But obviously bragging rights is key. And for those of you that have been following what's going on with Jeopardy over the last umpteen years, you'll get to come back and defend your title again next year. So fundamentals are pretty darn simple. Game requirements, we're going to be looking at issues of ethics. They combine with the law. The law is black and white. The ethics is gray. So where do all of these pieces come together? In the book that I did on cyber ethics, one of our judges, Jennifer Granik, please stand up. She was highly instrumental in trying to get some of the balance between the ethics and the legal sections. And we had a few good arguments. And I had to switch parties since talking to her. So some of the key things. 18 people are going to play. 17 of them are going to come out looking damn foolish. So for those of you who think you wanted to play, let's see how that actually goes. There are judges. And the judges are, if you'd introduce yourselves, please. Jennifer is the lead judge. And she's Jennifer Granik of? I work at Stanford now. I'm Chris Goggins with Counterpane. Richard Thiem. I'm Sarah Gordon. There is going to be a timekeeper who is supposed to be here by now. And so I hear by a point, Richard, the timekeeper. Come on up, Richard. You've got to be the timekeeper. It'll be very simple. There will be numbers. You follow the numbers. And you get to yell at people. You need a watch? Yeah, I need a watch. The timekeeper needs a watch. Yeah, but he's here. He's here, at least. Because part of the game is when you're answering the questions, you want to stick within the time limits for two reasons. One, you get boring after 20 seconds. Number two, we want to get the game to get you out of here before Hacker Hacker Jeopardy begins. Audience, you guys are key to this. And I'm only the host of the facilitator. I do not contribute answers or anything to this at all. The chief judges, we do run through who the judges are. Unfortunately, Peter Smith from the ITAA was unable to make it tonight. So we have a nice round number of four judges to make all the decisions when something comes up. How to win. You've got to keep the judges happy. You've got to keep the audience on your side. And you have to determine strategy. How are you going to be playing the game? The ethics of the game playing itself. Not only the ethics of the questions, but the your personal ethics of how you interact with other people in a forum where you're being videotaped live. We're going to have a group, a number of questions are going to occur. And we're going to get rid of people step by step. Any time there is a dispute about anything, the judges make the final decision. They may ask you your opinion as well. If you have individual comments, you will have your opportunity to raise your hand and holler out and make your thoughts as well based upon what the contestants are doing. You are required to humiliate people. This is DEFCON, remember. And there is only going to be one winner. That's it. This game is kind of aimed because it's an ethics. We're trying to keep it sane. We'd like to keep the language down. This is not hacker jeopardy. Plenty of time for beer and that later on this evening. But PGPG13, we are talking about ethics. The game benefits. Well, when Jeff and I got talking about doing something for ethics at DEFCON, he was kind of intrigued by it. The media has picked up a little bit on it to show, perhaps, that the word hacker and hackers are not so bad. So a lot of what's going to go on up here is going to be reflective of the community. And I don't know any of the people on the list. So we're going to kind of get a look, see how they are doing. So in order to let the game begin, I'm going to hand this over to the judges. And they're going to bring up our contestants. And we're going to have two teams with really, really great names. Team A. Can anybody guess what this? Team B! Team B! Team B! Team A! Team B! Team A! Team A! I don't have time to redo all the slides. So if you guys would start bringing these folks up. OK. If I mispronounce your name, I apologize. The next contestant, Pai Yin, also from Stanford. No? OK. Then I'll take the next person on the list. Alexius Pendragon. There we go. Thank you. Come on up. The doctor. Is there a doctor in the house? OK. Mr. Pendragon, you can be on Team A. The doctor's on Team 2. Octol. Octol. All right. Wampus. Wampus. I apologize. This can be your team. Team A. Wade Benson. Wade Benson. All right. Rob Heward. Rob Heward. Thanks. Chris Raver. Thanks. Oh, you guys are going to make me read every name, aren't you? Oh, OK. Brian Egan. Yeah, Brian. Jeremy Bornstein. Brandy Schnaps. Brandy, the former porn artist? No? OK. We're going to need more girls. Michael Wilson. Nicholas Digani. Desani. Nicholas. Is that you, Nicholas? All right. Yeah. You're on Team A. Dan Burroughs. There's Mr. Burroughs. Welcome. All right. Welcome to the game, Dan. You're on Team 2. Oh, shit. Eric Sister Subsidium. Sister Subsidium. There's some handwriting issues here. Is this you? What's your name? Sigler. Sigler. Sigler Subsidium. Is that you? Wow. You guys really... Team A. Team A. I have people read for me. Mike Hammer. Welcome, Mr. Hammer. You can be on Team 2. Acetone. Hired Gun. Can we... No hired gun? I would just get up if I... Hey, that's me. OK. So... We need another girl. OK. We need a woman. What woman wants it? OK. Now I'm just going to go down the list and I'm going to call people and whoever's here gets to be on. We need six more people. Come on down. If you wrote down something pornographic, I'm not going to read it here. Twist. Ms. Linguist? Missing your chance. Tom Coleman. Daniel Weedal. Ben Dorman. Something that starts with an M. Jennifer, you're going to keep the microphone. First thing that we want to do is we want to find out a little bit about these people. So for Team A, where's the Team A microphone? If you just each introduce yourself a little bit, tell us a few seconds. You have 30 seconds maximum. Otherwise Richard will kill you here. A little bit about yourself and the audience wants to know why you should win this game. These are all very simple questions. Hi, my name is Ben Dorman. I'm from Azula, Montana. I work at a programming company. They develop database software for 911 systems. I guess the best reason for me to win this game is because I am probably the most ethical person here. It's actually 20 seconds. First thing, you're already through, man. It's not a good sign. Let's see here. My name is Eric Sigler. Let's see here. Decoy. That means I'm not really here. Yeah, it's a bad sign to start off with. The best hack, it wasn't really a hack, it just managed to get someone duct taped to a chair and somehow managed to get them up and down about 20 floors before they could get out, you know? All right. My name is Jeff Strauss. I... I don't know, I'm still... Thank you. That's a good sign. Yeah, so I'm still in school and I think I should win because I've got the coolest handle around here, so I think that's a pretty good reason. My name is Asatone. I'm from Seattle and I should win because I'm the most ethical person here. Hi, my name is... Hi, Natasha. I'm from Silicon Valley, California and I'm not going to give you a line about being the most ethical person up here, but I think I should win because I think I'd appreciate anything out of Jeff Moss's hands. I'm one-fist and I need to win because I want to pick up hacks or chicks. I'm Lex, I'm a tech bitch from Pittsburgh. Best hack was telling Kevin Smith that his god was into bestiality and I should win because I understand that with great power comes great responsibility, but there's plenty of room for fun. Hey, I'm Stala. I'm 15 from Norman, Oklahoma, homeschooled and I should win because I have executed my Lama phase. I've learned a lot from it and I feel I've gained quite a bit of ethical knowledge from it. Thanks. Hi, I'm Nick. I'm from California. I should win because I have no idea why I'm on this stage right now. Judges, out of what you've heard, one of those people has got to go. For the most ethical one to leave. Which one was that? This guy. How was your 15 seconds of stardom? Alright, team B2. Where's your start on one end, please? Hi, I'm The Doctor. I'm a network administrator from the East Coast. Probably best hack in history was taking the Thuring Test and failing. Hi, Mike, otherwise known as Dot Zero. East Coast Systems Administrator, fairly large website. I try not to think bad thoughts. I have it in writing, so it must be true. My best hack actually related to load balancer failovers, and I found that... I'm a render man from Canada. Best hack probably has to be me and another antivirus critic ended up paying for and having a great deal of fun when networkassociates.com was allowed to lapse. So, I ended up paying for that for them. I'm Dan. I'm a research engineer at ISTS, and all my... Yeah, thank you. And all my work is funded by the DOJ, and if you can't trust someone who works for the DOJ, who can you trust? I'm Tom. I'm from New York. Fun little trip there. I'm a network technician. I think that I should win, because... I don't know. I mean, there's really no reason that anybody should win. I'm Danny. I'm a student at the University of Montana in Missoula, and I should win, because I'm wearing an orange shirt. I'm Brian Egan. I go to high school. I'm 17 years of age, and I need $800 to... hopefully help me get into college. Donate to that, to a college of my choice, and then apply to that college. I'm Krypta. I'm from Philly, and I need to win this because coming to DEF CON, now I'm totally broke, and I want something good to come out of it. I'm Nikki, also known as Amazon V, and I'm gonna say, why should I win this? I love duct tape and WD-40. What are the reasons you need? Judges, one of these people you intensely dislike, which one do you want to get rid of? The verdict of the court will be delivered by Justice Goggins. Well, I'm afraid since you didn't have a reason why you would win, you don't have a reason why you should stay. All right, so this is how easy the game is, and what we're gonna do now is get into the first round, and each round is gonna reduce people a little bit, and if we've done our job right, it's gonna get nasty. So the first is for Team A. Oh, we've done this one. Did that one. Team A, you have a cyber-ethical dilemma that I'm gonna present you. As a group, you're gonna sit and discuss it. The audience will think about it. We'll get some opinions from the audience. From the judges, you will pick a spokesperson to pick a spokesperson, and that spokesperson will speak for your group. And you have one minute to give the answer. And your question is, what is a hacker and what should a hacker be? What about you guys? The audience gets extra points for delivering beer to the judges. Extra points to the audience. Or chocolate. Chocolate also gains the justice's favor. Any beer, I think, is what beer? What beer? Justice is blind. We'll take any beer. Okay, Team A, spokesperson. Okay, I guess I'm the spokesperson. So what a hacker is and what a hacker should be, I guess was the question, and what a hacker is someone not limited to technology who is in pursuit of knowledge and background of any issue, not limited to technology, but to know how the inner workings and the guts of everything you come in contact with is. And what a hacker should be a carbon-based life form. All right, if you like it, give it up for it. That's all right. Team B, too. I'm assuming you've already picked your spokesperson. Oh, they couldn't figure that this was coming, could they? You do need a spokesperson, and your cyber-essical dilemma is the following. What is a lame-er and give some specific examples? Sorry? If anybody has a few sheets of paper that's being requested by the teams, a blank paper, used paper, anything, it'd be appreciated. Here come reams and reams of paper. All righty. All right, team B, too. Who's your spokesperson? It's Dan. It looks like I am. Okay, a lame-er, basically, is someone who does just really stupid things, is uncreative and writes the coattails of others and uses the work of others to try and further their own ego. And an example of somebody is, you know, any general script kitty, anybody that gets hacked into and can't figure out why, and that's about it. All right, thoughts? Give it up, all right, go on. Who should win this? Let's hear it for team A. Let's hear it for team B. Judges. Team B. Team B, one. Team two. All right, judges, why did team B win? Dan, we just want to say that if the audience wants its voice to be heard, we really need four cold beers up here. And for some reason or not, I mean, we care about them, but we're not going to particularly listen closely unless we have some beer. Do we have to beg for the goons to bring beer? Yeah, and when, you know, you said PG-13, not G. Team B won. They declared team B... Team two. Team B, two, one, according to the judges. The spokesperson for team A goes away. The winning spokesperson throws somebody off of your own team. Dan, who are you going to throw off? Dan, why did you throw him off? I threw him off because he's in high school and he's got many years to come back here. So... And it builds character. We're into round four. And team A. Team A, you guys are going to have a question. Each can answer it. I believe it's 20 seconds to answer it, so the timekeeper will... You have 21 seconds. That's much better. Team A, each of you answer the following question. What? 21 seconds each. What should be done with spammers? Can I go? Go. All spammers should be thrown in the slammers. Ooh, bad joke. Spammers should be, first of all, reported to their ISPs, informed upon and always possible. If they continue, their accounts should be taken away. If the ISPs do not take action, you should take action on your own. Whoa! Vigilani-ism from Oklahoma. Spammers should be forced to pay for each email they send out to the person who received the spam. If they read it, they get money for it, too. Spammers should be forced to pay $500 per email to any user who does not wish to receive it. Seeing as how we don't know what's in spam, they should be made into spam. Spammers should be subjected to the torment that they subject all of us to by receiving spam themselves, and large quantities of spam. I think that would be good. One sign and one answer. Provide a mechanism for the user to opt out of the spam. The other one wants me to run through about 20,000 volts through each one of their genitalia, male-female doesn't matter, and then bolt their kneecaps to the floor. Discriminate both sides. Judges, which answers do you really like? Which ones do you not like? Any thoughts? Any thoughts out here about what we liked or didn't like? You like which? The voltage, the high voltage. The high voltage is good. Alright, team A, based upon the answers, who do you want to throw off of your team? No, not you, the gentleman here first. Yeah, who do you want to throw off? Probably myself. That's ethical. The green shirt should get thrown off because while making people into spam could help feed people in third world countries, running electricity through their genitalia is just sick. Alright, one each. I'm going to have to agree with her because I happen to know a few people who enjoy electricity and some of them are on the stage. Two against the genitalia. I'm going to have to go the same way because I know I wouldn't want electricity through my genitalia and there's probably nothing you could do bad enough to get that. Although electricity is good, I can think of much worse things to do to somebody. I don't know, I'll have to go the same way. I just agree with everybody, I guess. I did too. What? No, it's okay. If the crowd doesn't like electricity, the crowd doesn't like electricity. Well, thank you for it, thank you. Alright, so that was what? Three votes, four votes against him? What? You know, a lot of people, especially people in Vegas, pay to have electricity applied to the genitalia. So you don't want to rule that out just quite yet, guys. Well, I'm sorry, sir, with the votes against you. Thank you for playing and come up again next year. Give it... Boo! Team B, your cyber-ethical dilemma. Team two. Team 2B, thank you, I do apologize. Oh, the beer has begun, I can already tell. Okay, your question is, a newbie on the net comes to you, emails you and says, I really want to learn how to hack. Please teach me how to hack. What are you going to do? Give him a link to Amazon.com to buy a copy of Kernahan and Richie. I think the first thing that I did is explain to him what RTFM means. Woo! I want to thank Fufis for the beer. Thank you, Fufis. Here comes Team Beer. I can't wait patiently if you continue. We're having a beer break quite obviously here. It's ethical beer, came out of the ethical tab. Yes, sir, you're next. First, show them some books to read and then tell them if they have any specific questions. Yeah, email back, no problems in answering. The first thing I would do is ask them why. Ask them what they want to get out of it and find out just what their goals are and figure out if it's going to be productive to help them out or not. Send them a Trojan, you know. Take over their system. This works, use it. If I queue over 90, I'd send them out to Usenet to see what can happen to them there. Ladies, if you were talking to the microphones a little closer, it would be easier for everybody here, okay? I would most likely ask them what they've done before asking me if they've read any books, if they've built a computer. And if they have, I'd probably point out a few more books and things like hacking your own system and things to do. All right, judges, who do we like up there and who do we not like? You like the guys giving out Trojans? But I represent the unethical portion of the judges. Oh, you're the unethical judging. All right, well, we need to find out. Who would you like to throw off of your team to make sure you continue to success here? I'd have to say Danny because it sounds like the voice of experience. I'd go with Dan just because, you know, that poor kid would get a Trojan and then he'd just be twisted for life. I have to go with Dan, too. I'm sorry. Yeah, I agree. It's not going to help things. I'm going with the other Dan because that was just kind of a lame response. No offense, bud. Trojan boy, too. Taz, voice of experience yet again. Well, it's unanimous, isn't it, almost? Say goodbye to Dan. Hey, Dan. Dan, are you 21? Have a beer. All right, win the round number, says three. And we got down where we have five people left on each team. That'd be six wins. Is that a six win? All right, it's a six win. Not yet, thank you. I still have jeopardy to worry about. And your ethical question, each of you will answer and see how long did I give you for this one. You have 22 seconds. You've got that extra second now. How far are you willing to go to get rid of kitty porn sites? I don't think there should be a stop to even, I don't think you should even think about trying to stop to put an end, to stop putting an end to it. It shouldn't have even started in the first place. I mean, it's horrible. And these kids, they might not even be aware of it, but I mean it's just screwing them up forever and it's a horrible, horrible thing and it should be stopped as soon as it can. They called it before. Time. We should definitely go to the fullest extent of the law to prosecute and find the little sick weirdos. Kitty porn is something we absolutely need to stop, but it starts at home with everybody. If people were better... Kitty porn, coming across kitty porn has got to be horrible in the first place, but you should report it to any and all authorities that are applicable, you know, ISPs, trying to get them thrown off and such like that. Personally, it's something I wouldn't want to get involved with because I don't like going anywhere near it. The fight against kitty porn by reporting them to the ISPs is fairly good so far, but it's not as effective as it could be. You have to realize kitty porn is legal in some countries, so in the countries in which it is prohibited or banned, the people producing the kitty porn should be physically hungered down and tried. Oh, really? Kitty porn is very bad and... None of us should do it. It's not a good thing. Trust me. We should do what she said about hunting and stuff. Judges, what did you hear that you liked and didn't like? I was happy that people didn't want to resort to vigilanteism, which can be very dangerous. I thought it was a wise statement to say that stopping it begins at home. I think that's... Because if people would just exercise a little restraint with their daughter's friends when, I think... Can we vote off a judge? He wants Justice Goggins to be impeached. To retain Justice Goggins. They're appointed for life. Sorry, guys. Okay. Audience, this is your choice. By round of applause, the answer you like the most. Starting over here with this gentleman. Let's hear it for him. For the lady. For the sick bastard. For the spammer. For Oklahoma. And for our last contestant. Judges, is it pretty clear who's going? Say goodbye. Team B. Team 2. Team 2. Thank you, Judge. It's going to cost me $100 every time you do that, isn't it? Your ethical dilemma is you are a student. It could be high school. It could be college. You were up all night on IRC. Instead of studying for your test, then you got an F. It's going to mess up your college or high school education real bad. As you're in your professor's classroom, you notice that he is logged on to the grading system. What do you do? Starting with you. Logged in terminal. Nobody's around. Nah. I screwed up. I got to take the fall for it. Well, I wouldn't do anything either because you'd probably get caught. So it's not an ethical question. With all the good university security. You pointed out to the professor and just make sure to note extra credits as a possibility. You got to take the fall. You can't do that. Nothing ever really kills your career anyway, so you'll be okay. But if there's that one person I really can't stand, I'd make sure they fail too. I would just have to point out to them that they're still logged on and start asking them every day, where's the extra credit and how long till I completely fail this class? Richard, we haven't heard from you. What are you thinking of these answers? I think they were all the same. It makes voting one of them off pretty hard. You'd have to do it by other criteria. Like just who you like better. All right, well, it's not up to you. It's up to the audience. Round of applause for who you want to keep. The next gentleman for surviving Dan and for our last lady. Judges, who goes? How about the double judging guy because it's irrelevant. Judges are too slow. Okay, bad thoughts guy. The bad thoughts guy? Bad thoughts guy has to go. Well, give him a round of applause for playing. Well, thank you. Wait a minute, consolation prize. Because he wouldn't do it because he would get caught. And we don't like people who get caught. Well, we're winding it down and you're learning about the ethics about some of these people. And this one, we'll start with team A for a change. How do you propose to get parents involved with their kids online safety if the parents are absolutely totally clueless and the kids run the computers? The best way to do that even for completely clueless people is to just put the computer in the living room and they can see if you're looking at porn or whatever. All parents need to do to get involved is to take a little bit of interest in their kid, let their kid run it, they can watch and learn from there. I think the best idea is to actually get some quality time with the parents and kids, have them both sit down at the computer, let the kid drive because he knows what he's doing, just have the parent reading the same webpage the kid is as the kid's reading it. The parents should definitely watch what the kids are doing online. I mean, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your mom or dad walking in on you and seeing what you're doing online, whether it's an ICQ check or a webpage. I have to apologize to about 1% of the population but I think the best way to keep kids offline and from doing bad stuff is giving them a Mac. A Mac. Okay. Team B. Team B. Team 2. Based upon what you've heard and what you're going to be up against in the next few rounds, who do you as a group want to throw off? Keep Oklahoma. Okay, who's the spokesman over there? I was sort of unilaterally elected. Who do we... I'm sorry, we're going to have to vote off Oklahoma over there. I want to know why? Why did you vote off Oklahoma? I'm speaking for the group, nothing personal. What? I'm speaking for the group, nothing personal. But why? Why did you want to vote her off? They say too smart for her own good. Too smart? She's too smart so you want her off so you can win. So they threw her off because she was too good. Team B. Team 2. And I can't even get rid of the judges. Team 2. Schools, grade schools, high schools and middle schools. Teachers are by and large pretty clueless about the technology. They don't know about the security problems. How do we get the schools and the teachers to start building in cyber ethics and awareness of security into the elementary and middle level school curriculum? I actually left high school for that reason because they were dimwits and then I just kind of went to college. Screw the whole high school thing. I think that you should just get new teachers that are just coming out of college and are in training and stick them in there, either that or send the teachers to training. That's called union busting, right? My high school actually had a class that dealt with all cyber ethics and used the computers. And actually the kids that actually knew what were going on, they ran the whole show. Shut up! You've got to spend money on the problem and give money to help educate the teachers and make it part of their certification requirements for new teachers and re-certification or just continuing education for the existing ones. Go back to your alma mater, high school, elementary, whatever and offer to teach them, we know what we're doing, why can't we pass along the knowledge? Actually it's not something I think that you can have deliberately worked into a school curriculum. They're going to have to get nailed pretty hard network-wise before they're going to realize that this is something they have to teach. They're going to have to get burned before they get off the butts and do something. Team A, who do you want to throw off now of Team 2? Judges, who do you like up there? You can elect not to take this case if you'd like. You know, we saw what you did last time. They say who you like and they get thrown off. So this court chooses not to accept this case? Well, you're asking the crowd. They're voting. No, they're voting. You're asking the small crowd if there are four people. After the lower judicial body rules we will decide whether to review that decision. All right, who do you want to throw off? That's the way it really works. You notice you didn't do that for Oklahoma, though. Oh, Team A, who goes? Tank top boy over there. Why? Why do you want him to go? Because he thinks it's more important to let people suffer from a problem before he tries to fix the problem. Well, thank you for playing. Wait a minute, Win. The judges would like to know who Oklahoma wants to throw off of Team 2. Throw off the guy with the hat. He's too good. Jennifer, it's amazing that you're redesigning this game on the fly here. I have no control over any of this. But we're down to four people now on each team. And Team A. Team A, very simple question. In the corporate world. In the corporate... No, sorry. That's wrong sheet. That's these eyes here. How much monitoring of a child's online activity should be done by parents? What sort of monitoring should they do and should they do it with or without the knowledge of their kids? Individual question. You each have 30 seconds. Like I said, putting the computer in the living room is a good thing. Kids, kids between 6 and 16. Why is that corporate? It's not. I've misread it. It's the eyes. It's old eyes, okay? It's not even the beer yet. Wait for Jeopardy. Like I said, putting the computer in the living room is a good thing. And it's not necessary to stand over their shoulder. But while they're online, you can sit there and watch TV and just glance over what they're watching. And yes, you should do it with their knowledge because it's not nice to do it without their knowledge. You need to do it with your children's knowledge. They need to know that what they want to look at is okay and you'll help them understand it if they have any problems with it. Or if it's something that you think is wrong. Your kids need to know that you are paying attention. Maybe you can go to the Paranoia Factor so they don't know what you're looking at. It'll kind of let them look at what they want and then you can go and talk to them about it afterwards. They should spend some time with the kids. Watch what they're doing as they're doing it, too. Not speaking from experience or anything. But I definitely think the parents should not tell at least at first just because you said 6-year-olds. 6 to 16. I prefer if you didn't describe to your 6-year-old what they could find out there and how to do it because no matter how hard you watch they're going to find it eventually. But once they become teens definitely talk to them about it and use whatever software is necessary and available. Okay. Audience, by round of applause, who's answer did you like the most? The ladies' answer. The next gentleman. The spam shirt. And the last gentleman. Judges, is it as obvious as I think? It is. The spam shirt. Thank you for playing. Give them a hand. Mr. Spam, please approach the front to collect your... How old are you, Spam? Team B. Two. Team two. Before she snags me on this one. If hacking is not against the law in another country yet hacking something inside that country might be beneficial to the good of the United States would you hack them and why? Especially if it was France. The timekeeper says yes, because it's there. I'm going to have to go, yeah, because if Russia is building a massive nuclear strike force against us I want to know about it and help the country. Russia? Well, since laws are a reflection of the moral view of a particular society if it's not legal or if it's not illegal in that country to do it then they don't have a moral issue against it, at least not yet so it makes sense to me that it's okay to go ahead and do that. I would say no. The net in its ideal form has no boundaries like countries or languages or religions and who knows what your home country has up its sleeve? I'd have to say if hacking is legal in that country and it's not here, take a trip over there, hack it because they should be well prepared if hacking is allowed in that country and get it there, otherwise you're messing up with the boundaries and stuff like that. I hear dissent in the audience. All right, it's time for the audience to do your voting. Let's hear it. Do we want to keep them? The Cold War survivor. Get on Air France and hack the bastards. The women who wants to save our country from nuclear war was the least favorite of the audience. Well, thank you for your attempts at saving our country. Thank you for playing. If there is extra water everybody up here would like a little if that's at all possible. All right, team A. Team A, your question is getting close here and you guys now have to make some decisions of working together or against each other. When is it okay to break into a computer without permission? Team A, individual answers. 32 seconds. I'd say it's only okay to break into a computer without permission is without permission. Without permission is when it can either save a life, prevent a crime, or is authorized by the DOD. Yeah! The only time you should be able to break into a computer without permission is when you're trying to prevent the loss of life or damage to an individual and when it's in the best interest of the country but not when the government is not telling us. Well, it's really only ethically okay to break into a computer if you have the permission of the owner. Judges, what do you guys think? What do you guys think? I think these guys are goody goodies. What's our Mr. Goggins thing, Judge? Well, I think the first guy gave the best answer. Okay. Richard. Thanks. We made an awful lot of presumptions about what you couldn't know about what somebody was doing before. So I really thought the most logical answer consistently was hers because she said she wouldn't have known. The conditions didn't make the conditions part of her thinking. She just knew it was wrong to do it. So the other guys were trying to make it sound like they could justify it, but you never know when those conditions are met. Sarah, what do you think? She agrees. Okay. Sir, of your two teammates, who do you want to get rid of? Uh-huh. Pick one of them. Can I do a suicide? No. Suicide's immoral. Wampus? Okay. Wampus, who do you want to get rid of? Him. Well, this means that you have the ultimate choice. One of them goes and it's your call. Pick up the microphone, please. Suicide is not an option. We're not in Holland. All right, team B. Two. Two. I got it. I got it. I know. I need a beer. Come up with one believable scenario when it is permissible to release a computer virus into the wild. To hunt down another more destructive virus. I can't think of any better reason than that. Virus, which patch something for people who are clueless, then I guess it would be okay. Sarah is a virus expert internationally renowned. I'd like her thoughts on these answers. Well, like, I've never seen anything done with a virus that I couldn't do just as well if not better without making itself replicate, which is, I think, more responsible. So I wouldn't say any of those answers would do it for me, but probably somebody who doesn't work for an antivirus company might want to answer. Anybody else? Well, sitting here looking at Jennifer and knowing recent past, it seems like someone just wrote a piece of software that went out and attacked things and tried to patch bind versions. Oh, let's hear it for the beer, guys. Oh, my God. Slight beer break. She wants one. The stagehand would like a beer, and I'm actually going to have one. I don't need two. We have a brief recess while the beer is distributed to the court. Thank you. Thank the beer, dude. Okay. Tanktop. Who would you like to get rid of? Why do you want to get rid of her? My microphone, please. Well, they both gave good answers. I'm going to leave it up to chance. Okay. Dan, who do you want to get rid of? Can I borrow the coin? No coin. The judges ruled no coins. Yeah, but now they just amended the Constitution quite clearly. Okay. Since I agreed with him on the question, I'll agree with him on the result. Well, give it up for her. She did great. She did great. Now, it's getting tough out here that four contestants left. Give it up for them. They've been hanging in there. They're surviving. They're surviving. And team A, your cyber-ethical dilemma. Oh, Richard doesn't like the time. You have 1.11246 minutes for your answer. You bring up the fraction. I'll put it on the PowerPoint. And you have a Swiss watch, right? If you could rewrite one cyber crime law that would enhance ethical behavior, what would it be? It's unfortunately suggested by Lana, but I was thinking of, because of my good friend Tyler. The DMCA, Digital Millennium Copyright Act, reverse many of its provisions. Laws are designed to protect the people, and all the DMCA does is protect corporations. Take it off the books. Team B, which of these two people do you want to get rid of? They get to choose. I'm sure. And if it's wrong, just... Okay. After long consultation, we decided we had to vote you off. Why? We thought his answer was more eloquent. You thought her answer was more eloquent? His. His answer is more eloquent eloquent than her answer. Yes. Do you agree? Sir denied. What the hell does that mean? I mean the court will not review the lower decision. They uphold the decision. Thank you for playing. You know, come on guys, he doesn't want to win so bad. Team B, two. Team two. Each of you answer the following in 1.11245 minutes. If you knew what your business associate of yours was breaking serious, serious computer crime laws, what do you do about it? Well, if it's a friend of yours, the first thing you have to do is go talk to them and find out, you know, tell them you know about it, ask them why they're doing it, try and figure it out. And if that doesn't help, then you have to take it to the next level. If it's a colleague, you have to go to your employers, and if it's a company, you work for the DOJ. They get it sanctioned. Tanked up. I'd say distance yourself as much as possible from this associate as you can, and watch him dig his own grave. If he's violating laws of that severity, he's going to get nailed. Let him go down in flames. Now, you're going to have to face one of these gentlemen for the final round. Who do you choose to face? Who do you choose to get rid of? I have to ask the gentleman wearing a full shirt to say goodbye. All right, the DOJ held in there, though. DOJ did good. They always stick around until the very end. Justice, you want your consolation prize? Yeah, you. You want your consolation prize, Justice? Where's acetone? She needs her beer. Did acetone want a beer? Here she comes. Everybody wins at ethical survivor. Okay, the final question for the whoever's going to end up being the winner here. For children under the age of 16 who do some illegal hacking cause some serious damage, what should we do with them legally? What should we do with their parents? And what is the ultimate recourse that you would design for this country? Team A, you go first. How do you deal with the kids? What do you do? Do you do the parents? You do the kids? What are the laws? What has to be done? I'll have to start with, depending on the nature of the crime, whether it's a violent crime or if it does cause someone to die. Serious financial damage is no physical violence. That's it? Just to continue on the previous streak, if it is a serious crime in terms of it could result in someone's death, then I would first say the child. I understand it's not violent, but if there's like a medical problem and the person dies, that sucks. Then the under 16 year old should be tried under normal circumstances. They should probably take like a year of jubilee or something and then remain with their parents under observation with while taking cyber ethical classes hopefully offered by some of you gentlemen and ladies. Alright, let's hear it for him. Tank's up! That's the perpetrator. It's on. I think that the perpetrator should be charged by the severity of the effects of what he had done. I also think that he should, after whatever punishment is handed out be forced to go to assistant min boot camp and should spend time cleaning up the messes of other such attacks. I also think that the youth's parents should be educated to bring them up to speed with the kids basically level of skill and knowledge. Judges, what do we think about these answers? What do we think about these answers? To request an amicus brief from Oklahoma. I personally have to say that I like this guy's answer better. Sending a kid to assistant min boot. First of all, the parents should be notified. There is nothing more humiliating to someone under 16 and I know from personal experience having your parents find out you can make a computer crime. If the parents don't take action, they should be tried according to the severity of the crime. If it is a crime that causes financial damage equal to grand larceny, then the child should be tried as an adult. Otherwise, they should be tried as a juvenile into file. Just before we get into the judge, I just want to make a quick announcement about a little later this evening, before everybody runs off. Many of you may know or remember a lovely lady by the name of Kitty. Bad Kitty is not here this year. She is taking her final exams to become an elementary school teacher. So we have won an international search for a new Vanna vinyl and we have found her. Oklahoma. She was penthouse center full January 1985. You will have the opportunity to meet her night tonight in this room at 11 p.m. for Hacker Jeopardy, but I'm going to hand this back to Jennifer. The judges thank Oklahoma for her opinion and look forward to her ruling someday when she's judged. But for now, the doctor wins. No, no, no. The opinions. But the doctor should win. Okay. Ultimately, you choose the winner. I think we are appealing to the Supreme Court and what does the Supreme Court say? You know, the thought of Jeff Moss having to give someone, she's only 15, so think about how many Def Con she can go to. The thought of Jeff Moss eating that much money after how much he makes off of us every year. Congratulations. You've got Def Con for life. We also there's there's a reason for this too. Some of us have been shocked and a little grieved at the degree to which the cyber ethics game really did focus on ethics. Where is the old hacking ethos? We said, where is the spunk, that vitality that drives you to go across boundaries no matter what, to get what you need in order to have your parents notified when you're less than 16 that you have done it. We think she has the spunk of a real hacker in her heart. Well, I can't thank you enough for helping to make this first annual game such a success. Oklahoma, congratulations. We'll hook up later. We'll get your details to get you everything. Thank you, California. Thank you. And hopefully we'll see you again here next year and do it again. Thank you.