 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Hello friends Good good day to you Look at the lighting in here. It's great Indeed it is. I'm gonna move this out of the way as I realize I left that up. There we go Yeah, so I'm in a hotel. I'm on the road this week. Obviously in case that's not totally obvious yet But but we're still gonna do this. So we're doing the we're gonna talk about the some news today There's lots of news actually. We're gonna talk about the FAQ. That's gonna basically be the discussion We'll keep the show very short. It won't be too long. Maybe like an hour long show Because Tom and I are both doing this from our lunch breaks. And so that's what we're doing All right. So so let's start out with the news. Everything's been updated for you Tom Yeah, if you yep rumor engine So I know it used to be memed. It's always elves. Hey folks. I This is elves. Yeah, so good friend of the show strength hammer Actually sent me, you know, I put out a tweet and he sent me a note about it to make sure that I grabbed it and I did So let's go over here To this image that he found so this is the pantheonic mandala For the high elves and as near as he can tell this looks like more moray hegg the crone Which I think it does look pretty close if you look at it here. I go back here here Here Pretty pretty close pretty close as he pointed out his tweet and the ensuing discussions afterward there's not really a lot of Not really a lot of like Information on this particular Deity or who they were associated with or what unit so it's pretty wide open My guess would be, you know, this is like the Docs Dawn bringers character. All right is is what I'm guessing I saw some discussion Don bringer. Yes, like like they're gonna get a character in the You know in the Yeah, in this whole series, right and so assumingly what's gonna happen is they will Assumingly they will um, I Don't know what that will be but theoretically it's something like, you know, we we theorized that in the dawn bringer story that Um Marathi will sort of swoop in at the last moment to save one of the crusades basically and have you know further sort of Put the the cities in debt to her and so on and so forth So this could be like one of the the characters through which that's happening That's that's my best guess it's clearly doc It's very likely this symbol so it's somebody aligned with that There was another discussion that it was this is like an anti-marathi faction that it could potentially be aligned with Which is interesting. I Mean like I know where our our mind is fixed right now on On the dawn bringer crusade, but I mean sometimes we get these a year out sure And so that would not be it would not maybe be a stretch To suggest that this could be something from next year sure It's possible that's the case. Yep, then this may not be Doc at all Entirely possible in which case it could be like they could be using malaria and sort of the anti-marathi faction could be represented there There's a group of sort of canites that are that are super dedicated to cane and like don't really in line behind Marathi and They're sort of potentially associated with this symbol So again could have a malaria and echo Could be You know could just represent a break in the story maybe maybe her story You know she has a very unified faction under her theoretically It could be that one of them breaks away and is with one of the crusades or aids one of the crusades And it's up sort of aligning against her but with the cities there's there's lots of possibilities of where they could take this right Yeah Makes the faction interested sure Keith Rogers said dawn bringers will be four books total right We think so because they often do four book series, but that we don't know that there could be five like they could do a five book series It wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the world. They've done five book series and before in other games Just most of the AOS. Well, they started earlier. Yeah, the dawn bringers who say they started earlier in leading into the The new edition rather than later. Yeah, so it's possible. We could get a fifth book Yep, I mean again, we're gonna about we're about to get the third book and we're still eight months out nine months out from release Sure, and the roadmap shows the fourth one theoretically coming within this calendar year or at the very least, you know early very early next year Like obviously roadmaps are subject to change and shouldn't be taken as dictum, but it's like the last sort of thing in this year So Theoretically it's we're gonna get the fourth one as well You know, we'll see we'll see I guess is my answer All right, cool. What's next? Yeah, so let's talk about the battle battle force boxes You just want to jump right into that that that nugget. Yeah, this is probably worth some decent discussions There are four battle forces. We don't know the price yet. Traditionally these have been, you know around the sort of 215, 220, 230 dollar mark here in the US like that sort of area, but we don't know the specific We haven't seen retail pricing yet. So we don't know Um Anarchist cobalt said is the lack of scaven dawn ringers assigned for a fourth edition revamp or just copium. I Anarchist, let me tell you what we've been on the chair on the train forever That's given is the fourth edition relaunch faction. I've been saying this since yeah, I've been calling Yep, and I I firmly believe it and every day. I only believe it more It's the line is due for a refresh. You've seen many other lines get this kind of refresh We strongly suspect they're going back to chaos for the next edition. It would be the most logical one to go back to Um, so I mean, I don't think it's copium personal take. I don't know anything This is just our our supposition based on the reading the tea leaves, but I remain hopeful Okay, uh, so we've got these, uh, four box sets, right? Uh, so like I said, they're all around the sort of 220, 230 dollar range historically We don't know that what they'll be now. They could be more I've got pictures of each of the individual forces, but at a high level We've got an s2d sort of an eternus theoretically eternus aligned one, but though many of these don't have like they have there's variability to these as we'll talk about you have a star host sarifon With a slonny slon frog at the lead You have a praetorian group with obr And then you have the sort of vengorian focused one with the vengorian lord So let's break into each of these individually. We've got some images of each of these. So here we go Let's start with the sarifon. So in the sarifon one, you get the slon You get 10 source warriors. You get three of the writers The new agridon lancers You get the chameleon skinks and they're associated little pterodons or whatever they're called the little bird nudes that are technically an independent unit And then you get three krueger, which could also be built as either like regular krueger or krueger warspond So That's your that's the box here What do you think about this is like a starting for your sarifon force, tom? Um, are the hunters of huwanchi are they? Um, are they like an underwear? They're not an underworld warband. They're just they're they're just they're not a named unit or anything, right? Well, they can be the little oh the chameleon dudes. The hunters of huwanchi were a war cry unit not a Not a underwear. Oh, we're fine. Okay. Is this the first time that we've seen a war cry unit lumped into a bundle? Maybe I can't think of a previous one But I admittedly do not have every bundle from the past four years memorized off the top of my head Yeah, I mean what I'll say is this It's all new sculpts Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, everything in here is the new stuff. Yes 100% new salon new pterodons new hunters The source are new the krueger are new like yeah, this is all of it None of this is them clearing out old stock and repackaging right as has been accused in previous years This is just like the hot new sarifon stuff. It's all here Right. Um, I mean as far as sarifon go what I would say is this if I wanted to start an army I think this is a great place to start Yeah, I agree. Like it doesn't It doesn't necessarily fit, right? It doesn't fit in any of the like buckets, but if I wanted just uh, like a When you paint you put it out on a base coat, right? And this is a great base coat for sarifon. I agree. I think that's an excellent way to look at it No, I I'm with you Like obviously it doesn't have a lot of your big stompy monsters But you might only use those if you're going hard in a coalesced it provides you with a good base base of the battle line Um, I remain pretty unimpressed by the krueger and and war spawned kind of even with their lower points but I've I've actually had multiple occasions recently to play against sarifon as Friend to show brennan melnick the lord of death has been actually trotting out a sarifon army And you know, I mean most of the stuff you see here is stuff. He's been using right and I like the the sorus have impressed me a little skinker dues are obviously always good um, the honestly the agridon Lancers the those dudes have impressed me way more than our original read, but they drop the points on them Some and I think at their current points. They're great. They're really great Um, so I think this is like a really solid Uh box that to start sarifon with and then yeah, exactly You would just build out into the way you want it to go, right? Okay, next up obr Uh, so you've got 20 more tech You have the um The the leech cavalos or whatever who can also be built as the you can be built as either the named guy or the generic guy Um, you've got four marga more gassed Arachai archi that can be built as harbingers as well You've got the five ponies five knights and then the goth is our harvester Which we've seen the goth is our harvester showing back up in some lists after its points adjustments with the recent changes to obr We've seen a lot more usage of the more gas. I actually think the more gas are really really good I think the only reason you weren't seeing more gas previous to Uh, sort of much more recently is because Immortus and stalkers were just so ridiculously good that they overshadowed everything And we've seen a return of more tech as well in the same one Um, yeah, derrick hilderbrandt said the obr one is great for where the meta has shifted for more gas Is looking really good right now and yeah, I agree. Um, I like I think this is a very solid box That I think more gas are actually a lot of people were sleeping on them for a while. I'm sure the the obr Hardcore or we are obr players in the audience were well aware of the quality of this unit. It's just again It was overshadowed, but I think a lot of your opponents aren't expecting what these guys do Um, which is like tom. I don't know if you've had the occasion to play against these guys. I have I've played in so many times across the battlefield They're fast, but they also shut off all commands to units. They're fighting Not just like in a certain phase just they do that That unit doesn't get doesn't have commands anymore as you receive So would you run them in a group of four? No, I use them in two twos I like them in two twos. I mean you can do them in four. It's not there's nothing There's just it's just so much real estate and so much investment in one unit I'm that's but that's a lot of vince's personal taste and takes taking vince always prefers more units and more optionality um, I mean four of them will wreck stuff, but um Right, you know, they're they're a beautiful model. They're actually really good in the game. They wreck what they hit Uh, so yeah, I mean again overall, I think if you were looking to start obr This is a legitimately good place, especially where the meta is right now and probably where it will remain Basically for that army for the most part for the rest of uh, of you know, third edition Right, so I think this is a this is a pretty solid investment into both the base and into Having a unit that's our forces can be playable until 4.0 and then as with anything all bets were off, right? Who knows what what happens then? So Cygnus maximus said more guests in two twos in two twos. Yes, exactly. I prefer my more guests in two twos That's exactly right Okay So, yeah, I mean did this one this one passes muster for you as well. I assume Yeah, I mean like I have low key been gathering OBR army sure like slunesh like from from like event of rewards Like I just have a spot on my shelf Of stuff, you know, like I have a harvester. I have a catapult Like I have a number of obr things and so like when I look at that and then look at this box. I'm like, well This would fill out Right a lot of the the core kind of base elements if I ever wanted to make like 1500 points, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly Okay Next up is s2d In s2d, you get eternus who can also be built as your regular chaos lord on demonic mount You have five chosen 10 Warriors by knights and three ogroid baradons So this is very much like the wall of steel the wall of iron build of s2d as your base um I mean, these are all the most Beautiful units in the army. Like I love all of these units. I use all of these units Um, I don't think this is particularly good right now or competitive. Like I actually think it's pretty bad Right now s2d is just in a kind of rough weird spot That being said you don't buy a box set like this because you're concerned with its current meta performance, right? No, um And I do think this is again a great base for your army. This is what you're gonna want You're gonna want chosen. You're gonna want warriors. You're gonna want knights Those will always be the basis of chaos like in every edition of s2d going forward in every book You know, this is gonna be the core of the army because it is the like Legacy core of s2d more than almost any other army s2d has a series of units that are just the beating heart Of the army and this is all of them. Um, and then and some pheron's Right. Yeah Ironically, I think the pheron's the the unit I like the most in here I mean chosen are good. Don't get me wrong almost every list. You see a competitive nod has 10 chosen and right They're just sort of the de facto choice. So the you're halfway home Yeah Yeah Anything else on this one? I mean, it's it's fine No, it just it overlaps some with the the sides of darkness box that came out not too long ago Sure. Um, and so that's disappointing. But I mean that's to be expected, right? Like that's gonna happen. Yep. Um Yeah, that's what I would say No, I think this is good And I think if like if you've been thinking with with a couple of these it's true for the obr one as well It's a good point to mention that there is some significant overlap with um Like the whatever they're called vanguard or whatever box that's like the way what I think of is getting started Because they were called originally or whatever but um, there is some overlap here Right with that stuff and you know, that's unfortunate But at the same time in most cases, it's not too bad Like I don't know that more knights and more warriors or a lord on carcadrack or stuff like that to kind of is a bad thing Generally, you're not going to run just 10 warriors. You often run them in packs of 20 Generally, you don't just run five nights. You run two by five nights You know, I some people run them in one by 10. But again, I think that's crazy Uh, you know, so so that kind of stuff all all aligns very well I think with uh with like what's going to be a solid foundation of your army and frankly something You're going to want to play now and into the future These are all the really fun core units of what is otherwise a huge book with a ton of war scrolls It's funny how often it comes back to like you got a book with what 40 50 war scrolls in it And yet it always comes back to the same three Units right knights chosen warriors like the the it's just the heart of the army. It's like it's what you have It's what yeah creates the the baseline for your force Hey, shout out to plus tough. What's up there? Doug? How you doing buddy? Good to see you again Hope you're doing well man uh, all right lastly soul blight brave lords Which comes with 10 dire wolves Uh, was that 20 skeletons? Yeah 20 skeletons uh the Um, vengorian lord, which can also be built obviously as luke of eye if you want the named character Uh comes with three bats And five blood knights. Okay the way now when you let in here tom you seemed not very hot on this one Okay, so so tell me what's what's missing? Is the fact there's no zombies in this? Is that the issue? Well, no, it's deceptive Okay Vengorian court What is vengorian court? Uh, well avingori is the all monster faction If that's what you mean, right named after the what's vengorian and the monster folks. Yeah Yeah, and you're saying there's no monsters. I don't know I Yeah, there's just no monsters right like it just it feels like a miss um Like in that sense in the other sense Like I'm I'm painting s2d right now or no, I'm painting. Sorry. I'm painting SPG types are SPG right now. Sure. Um acronyms are hard I I just painted 20 dire wolves. Sure Right like and but nothing else here is in my army right now. Yeah And so it just it feels like I love blood knights, you know But I we also had this box two years ago and it was just better. Yeah Like if you look at, you know, like do a search for um soul blight battle Soul white graveyard's box on on google, right? Um Uh, let me see if I can find it real quick. Uh, yeah the revenant legion It was basically this box to be very clear Right. Um, it had the same number of skeletons Sure It had the blood the blood knights and the the avingori So all of that was the same. Okay, right The difference is it traded. Um, it traded the Dire wolves and the bats for 40 zombies. Sure Was that a good trade? Uh, no, that's a bad trade. That's a bad trade. That's a bad trade, right? Yeah, um, and I bought two of those revenant legion boxes, right? So like I I don't know that like that I look at this and I'm just like It's it like it I don't know that I would in in good conscience recommend this box for soul blight blight For soul blight blight Yeah, soul blight such a weird army in general and a weird army to play um Where it's going to be really heavily shaped By the type of force you're interested in running maybe more than any of the other ones we've talked about so far because like it could look totally different Um, depending on the the exact form of soul blight graveyard's army you you want it doesn't have the same like Solid core you always see and everything Certainly a lot of lists will feature zombies or skeletons. I mean obviously recently it's been a zombie It's been zombie thawing since the books release, right? Like vampire lord on zombie dragon and zombies just everywhere But no, I agree. I mean obviously the bats are like they whatever. What are you doing here? That's sir also appearing in right and a lot of people are talking about the sort of grab bag nature of this one And I don't disagree with that like you have a chaff unit that generally no one uses You have blood knights, which are okay at best right now. They're they're not summonable They're overcosted and will be as long as they have this stupid rule Where they can regen and do all this stuff and things that interact with summonable stuff Like it means your elite unit that isn't it's just always going to be worse Because you added this hyper keyword to like the garbage of the army, right? Which turns it into like overtuned quality Um, the direwolves are fine. Like I have no problem with direwolves It's okay. Generally a lot of lists we use 10 direwolves But skeletons some lists will actually run heavy on the skeletons. Some won't The vangorian lord is is actually a very quality piece But it's the kind of thing that is as you mentioned if you had picked up like a previous box out of you already have one You definitely don't need two Right. Very few lists end up running two I suppose unless you are full on up and gory and going like With luke of eye and the vangorian lord and so on so it does feel a little more scatter shot I think you're I agree. It's the one that I like the least out of all of them Well, I mean the right answer here was this this is where they miss because so much of your list is Defined by your sub factions And so this should have been like an avingori box Right or a viracos box or legion of blood box Right and all of those things incentivize a certain way Um, and I I think that that's where they missed it like that that these units actually It's not that they don't play well together. They just don't really interact with one Yeah, you don't have all this in one list exactly what hugo's saying in the chat Which I agree with right like these units might work independently or in different lists But you're not going to see all these things together or very rarely it'd be a very weird grab bag, right? Yeah, if they had done a viracos thing and it was like, okay belladama and some dire wolves You know or whatever that kind of thing. I'd be like and some dead walkers, right? Like because because like that that like that that's the logical one, right? viracos would have been like dire wolves belladama Um, like a unit of zombies or like four let's do two units zombies 40 zombies because again They dead walkers get that let's see you corpse heart and Um, I don't know chat a car or pick one of you know pick something else, right? Um, that would have that would have just like it would have made the box It would have been what that army is Yeah, or oven gory like let's say you do let's say you do oven gory and you do two Vangorian lords so you can get luke of eye and another one. Let's throw in also um like I I'll get there a flappy get get put throwing a flappy on there and then some bats or whatever great Yeah, yeah Um, so I just or like if you want to do legion of blood, that's fine Do like a blood palanquin 10 blood knights like lean into this Yeah, yeah a vampire lord on foot and they just did and and then also eight of the vampires Uh from war cry on sure sure like lean into what it it's supposed to be and like I understand that they're trying to seed new armies. That's what this is And by seeding new armies are trying to do something that provides a base Um, and so they want to cut you to kind of diversify they don't want to be too heavy in one direction But I guess my pushback would be it needs to be a base and this doesn't this isn't a base for any one army Right, whereas the other ones you feel like it is. Yeah, absolutely Right. Yeah, I agree. I agree Okay, cool. What else we got? um Let's talk about Uh, the dawn bringers pre-release in city of sigmar. Yeah, so pre-order talk about the The pre-order, sorry. You're good. You're good. I think I wrote pre-release the note. So it's not your fault. Um, the so yeah pre-order for cities all the rest of the city's units Um, so this is the stuff that wasn't in the initial gift box, right? Um, including the incredible thalia or whatever thalia, however you say your name. No, oh my gosh She looks great. Yeah, I always get her confused with the magic card of the same name. Basically. Yeah, I love I love her so much Yeah, there's a hobby project for you convert her into thalia. Sure Well, thalia as you know rides the get-wrong monster. So I'm not sure I can divert that manicor into a frog um But the but but you could try sure sure um the um So we got that and we've got the the dawn bringers part three, right? Books all going on pre-order this weekend Which means next week will be our dawn bringer Part three review show. So look forward to that. We'll be talking about that. I'll be back at home next week. Thankfully Um, so for once the timing worked out this summer has just been a cavalcade of errors where every time a book Something went on pre-order. I always had to wait a whole week to do it. So There you go. Uh, yeah, very good. So looking forward to that should be exciting A lot of a lot of great stuff coming out. It'll be good to get that in people's hands I know there's a lot of people looking forward to get that new city's armies built I for one look forward to our new fuselier overlords uh, so, you know Thumbs up Yeah, I'm I'm I'm interested, you know, I'm I could I could go for a city's army Sure, so I'm saying well, you like bent stuff and fuselier castle spam is clearly bent. So why not? Uh No, like to be honest like this gonna sound uh, this gonna sound ridiculous, but like I like the models Right, like I just like the stock, right? Um, like I I I think the new sculpts are beautiful. Sure Is what I would say like I like I think that they capture They resonate with old cities of sigmar, but they are distinctly new. They feel new That's I I think that's totally fair. So I think that that was let me say it this way. I think that was a successful conversion from Warhammer fantasy to aos aesthetics Yeah, agreed Agreed. Yeah, I definitely agree with that Okay, like cool bringing something like that into the present was delightful. Yeah, uh, what else do we have? Was there anything else in the news or was that was that or was that all? That's it. Okay Now obviously today Um, we got sort of the FAQ dropped, I guess Uh, so for people who aren't aware of how this all worked out Basically what happened is we got part of the FAQ in Uh, in the app updated But they didn't release any of the pdfs. Why do these things move in different time frames? Who knows? Who can different teams the answer is different teams? Yeah, absolutely Uh, so but we're going to talk about the the city's FAQ today or not city. Sorry that dawn bringer FAQ today Uh, and so we've got we've got a couple items here. I've got screenshots and stuff like that from uh, the uh from the app For as much as I could grab there's a couple I didn't wasn't able to grab but we can just talk them through Uh, so let's talk tom because dawn bringers part two. Let's just lay some groundwork here. Okay I think that when it comes to dawn bringers two There are three tiers of armies over now that showed up in that book, which is not great because you've only got four armies over now Okay, yeah You had trash tier basically non competitive complete fun fluffy choice Again, not that I'm I'm not against fun fluffy choices. Like I don't care. It's fine. All right But that was iron jaws like their choice was just utter trash. Like it's a bad army Okay It loses everything good about iron jaws keeps and gains nothing Right, it's garbo. Yep. Yep. Then you had properly balanced here like interesting but clearly not moving the world Right And that was the trolls Okay, so that was drugs drugs group Which I think is fun and a really interesting army and cool and need and flavorful and does everything you want to do To me, it's the perfect balance. It's not strong in any way. I may have Trug on my building people. Absolutely. That's that's all that's what I'll say I think they nailed it so perfectly with drugs army because it's cool. It's compelling. It's flavorful, but not over the top right You could see people playing it. It doesn't feel bent it feels fun And interesting like good great job Like that should be the template for how everything works going forward. It kept everything they needed to out of the base It had interesting play options. It had a cool character in its lead It felt like it had a theme and a flavor and still left for for some interesting gameplay great okay and The and then you had broken tear Okay And you can tell broken tear because all you have to do is allow this to tournaments and see what What spiky tournament players start showing up with Yeah, and broken tear was king broad and the Grunt stock expeditionary course. Yeah, okay. Yeah so famously The KO force really allowed you to do two things So you could only have grunt stock units. So we're talking about thunders and gun haulers and then all your heroes, right? Yeah great uh go on right and uh, woofer grenade said, where do I find the FAQ notes woofer? They're only in the app right now. So that's here. It's my screen shot by my crappy screen shot um, but the Um, assumingly the pdfs will be out like sometime today or tomorrow or something like that They usually release the pdfs of this as well on work on so assumingly that'll happen. Um So, uh, Derek Hildebrand said case in point vault wars top table round five was broads stomp versus broads stomp Weird. Yep. Sure. Absolutely So, okay The KO unit really fundamentally did the KO sorry, um army over down fundamentally did two things One any time you shot with the unit any time or fought You roll to die and on four up you shot again Okay So if you unleash four up unleash again shoot during the shooting phase four up shoot again so on and so forth Okay And then the other thing it let you do was gun haulers could move Units around the table Yep, so if a gun hauler made a normal mover runs, they could transport a friendly unit Right, and there was no size limit on this So what this meant and I saw one of these armies at vault wars as well I don't know how it did but I know there's a couple actually I think there was at least two or three when we did the list review show and The you know the basic concept here is pretty straightforward You have like three gun haulers and then you have like 15 10 and 10 or 15 15 5 or you know something like that All right of thunderers And the thunderers steam around the board 20 inches ish, you know, whatever something like that Pick up the unit from three inches behind them steam forward 20 inches drop them three inches in front The thunder has now moved like 26 inches in a turn or more And then just unload into the enemy at point blank range Right, and then whatever survives like just them they you get unloaded on again twice And you just hope to roll your forearms and if you do you just table the enemy top of one Yeah, sounds like KO sure sounds terrible Like obviously it's horrible. I mean, that's obviously terrible like the the the obvious Sort of way that thunders are balanced is that they can't zip Freely around the table as though they were like hitcher units Right. That's why they're not balloon boys right And the You know the the the nature of this force too that I really hate Whether it's like super strong or super not. I don't care. It's going to produce one-sided games That's what's going to happen with it. Correct. Right, right, correct You get a bunch four ups. You just slaughter the enemy. Yeah, like fail a bunch of your four ups. You're dead on the spot Great. Well, and I mean to be fair like that's what KO has Largely been for the majority of their life and it's just been a terrible experience Like they're just in the design. They're perpetuating the design that they started with which was still bad design Yeah, I would argue this is that intensified, but nonetheless I mean like because this is really encouraging you to just like bet the farm like to push your chips in, right? Yep What game or not? Yeah, sure. I mean the advantages are going to get a drink or a lunch really fast. I suppose right one way or another So the question is is how many people in the world actually have like 35 to 40 Uh, funders a lot a lot of people have 35 funders because it was already a list people were toying around with Um, I saw it in many tournaments now again a lot by the standards of like KO players, I suppose Yeah I'm saying this guy did sure. Yeah, I know you did Um, all right, so how did it change? Well, we changed the part that I think is the most broken which is the redeployment rule Okay, yeah, I mean I would point out that the previous great andron work one of the legendary most advanced pieces of technology That you could you could select right? This is showing that you had somebody in your army that had an incredible breakthrough in the world of KO technology That great andron work allowed your gun hauler to haul around five people Right This thing was hauling around 15. Just like nothing Okay, like apparently they're all just hanging on the side No, they they all have hooks on their back and so it just flies over and it's just like yeah Yeah, like a like a like a factory line picking up chickens or something. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Uh, think about batman and batman begins Right. Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Yes So now it's each time a friendly gun stock gun hauler makes a normal move or runs You can say that it will transport a friendly unit if you do so before the move is made You can pick up to two other friendly gun stock expeditionary force units with a combined model count of six or less So now you can pick up two units and obviously that's meant to be like a hero and a unit of five funders because that's that's How you get to six, right, which is fine Uh, and you know, they have to be within three inches and five balloon meters. Yeah, yeah Right So yes, because it's wound counter six or less. Yeah, exactly Uh, so like all in all this more or less adjust it back to what we would expect in this in this place Right. I do think this was the major Thing that sent the force into overdrive the four up double shoot is strong But the four up double shoot is what it is. It's betting your army on a coin flip, right? Yeah When you could move the entire army around willy nilly and basically put it wherever you wanted every turn all of that firepower That's that was That's obviously what was broken. So I think we made the right that's old that's old school k.l Yeah, right like that's Yeah, like that's what k.o used to do and used to be and so This just says even if you restrict the units, it's still a problem Right, like that's what this showed. Um, and so no that kind of play style is also still not except Yeah, so are you happy with this change? Do you feel like this is fine? Have we brought it into balance? You know that kind of thing? What's your thoughts? I mean, what I'll say is this That restricted restriction is fairly restrictive losing your big boats losing, uh arco losing Like having the mobility unsizable units because if you have like 10 foot sloggers 15 foot sloggers They're not going anywhere. Like right like they're like they're gonna sit on a home objective They're never moving into deeper territory to shoot, right? Um, and so I mean what I would say is that it's fine I mean, I think it could still be effective. Let me be clear like I'm not saying that's terrible Right, like you could still do an msu a similar msu line up Um, and you just need more gun haulers now You could go one more basically instead of doing three go four and then basically still tote 20 around Yeah, I mean in my estimation, I think this was the right fix. This brings it down more to me I think down to drugs level now. I would point out you can still do the funny hop With this I think is it's written meaning like I can have them one unit Yeah, like I can have six guys back here in the corner Right the gun hauler can pick them up Move to here drop them and then I've got another gun hauler stationed here. It can pick them up move drop them But again, yeah, like okay What I haven't considered is like what does this look like when you do some of the short range heroes that actually have some punchy guns Sure, um, like maybe the right answer is is literally substituting out other Other thunder units for like a chemist with a bunch of shots Sure, right and if you have if you do this with four units of those That you're toting around in the gun haulers with the 20 Thunderers you may still have some pretty significant firepower that you could leverage in that short range. Okay. That's interesting Okay, so that's the basic gun stock change. So good change. Okay Now boop boop boop boop. We're gonna go over here updated smash it all to bits. Uh, this was Uh, this was a feature This is basically a sort of action That the giant scott from their army of renown if you were playing in king broad stomp Which I will say king broad stomp was like the one that that There was the least like the other armies of renown because it didn't really restrict your units in that traditional way It just it was like it was king broad's army, right in the way that like you have the Breaker tribe and stomper tribe and all of these things in the in the base book But you couldn't actually you didn't actually have like broad's army. Well, that's what this actually introduced. Okay so in here The problem was smash it all to bits as it used to be written What it allowed and what people were doing like crazy and this is discovered like Instantaneously it just blows my mind that it got through testing Is that it allowed all of your giants to teleport That's what would happen because you would walk your giants onto a piece of terrain Smash to rubble the terrain All right smash it all to bits not smash to rubble. Sorry you'd use this ability Everybody who's on the terrain gets moved Right has to be set up all the models on the terrain get set up So for you you take them off and you can set up anywhere within six inches of the terrain And so you just like walk two or three of your giants onto the terrain smash it to rubble Yeah, they take D3 mortal wounds. Oh no, right and then you teleport your entire army onto every objective You want that's within six inches of that objective given their base. It was just completely easy to do Right And Like obviously giants were never meant to be as an army to have army wide You know line of sight teleport vanguard wing army wide vanguard wing, right? and so Obviously, this was bad I would put this under under unintended consequences Right, like it's one of those places where just Clearly somebody thought of a cool rule and it didn't bother to think through the consequences. Okay So now Once per turn in your shooting phase you pick one terrain feature that does not Have any units with the monster keyword Polly or partially on it And one friendly mega gargant within one inch of it If you do so roll a die on a two up at sundered and then basically the same text Right The point being is that obviously because it doesn't allow monsters on it None of your giants can be on this thing. So none of you can teleport now. Interestingly, this has the side effect That if they sit a monster on it, they also protect that piece of terrain Right, their own monsters can't get can't get knocked around. So only they're they're non monster pieces, right? yep so Yeah, and then, you know, good change, right? Um, and then they had a they had a clarification with that as well When applying the effect of the smash it all to bits battle trait if a unit has some But not all of its models on a sundered terrain feature when setting up the models again Do I only set up the models that were on this under trained feature? Do I set up all the models in that unit? Only the models that were on that train feature normal coherency rules apply So basically if you've got a unit partially strung out on terrain, they're not moving much, right? Like you're lifting the terrain and then they're getting set up still within coherency of the guys who are gals who weren't on the terrain feature Okay, cool easy enough, right good clarification Yeah So by the way, if you haven't hit like yet everybody hit like hit like for great fixes. I was like this is a good fix I'm happy to see this. Yeah. I think king broad's army is still strong. I really do Uh, I think it like almost by default goes three two at a tournament just like by existing Um in in most players hands Uh, so I think it's still gonna be very strong Uh, like I think it'll have an outsized win rate. It's win rate will probably be up in the You know 50s potentially breaking the 55 barrier Um, what when results come in But I think it's balanced now like yes, okay Now we're now we're not doing stupid crap and bending the game in weird unintentional ways Like obviously that was never how it's supposed to work like so dumb And good we fixed the dumb thing and now it doesn't do dumb things anymore. So I'm here for it Okay, so yeah, I'm good with this one. I mean king broad is something I'm going to play around with a lot Um, because I think it's really cool and I like it a lot. So there you go Uh, all right, and he thought you had more you had on the giants before we leave them behind Or leave this particular change behind no No, I know I think it's I think it makes sense We had one more change. I think it's a good good. Yeah, I agree. This is a good change. No, I think it's a good change We had one more change to the giants, which is worth mentioning and although there is a uh There's an error in the update, but the intention is clear Once that gets corrected and that is to broad's decree, which is their grand strategy Although you wouldn't know it from reading this update Uh, this was originally the one that required you to smash to bits all the terrain on the table So that grand strategy could only be completed in the mirror match Just given that you only have five rounds to accomplish this thing And you can only do one per round and the average table has eight pieces of terrain the math just didn't work That's just somebody didn't bother to do the math like it's wild to me. Okay Yeah at any rate Now The new version of it is when the battle ends you complete this again. It should say grand strat It says battle tactic because somebody copy pasted the wrong words Um, if there are no terrain features that are wholly or partially within enemy territory on the battlefield So you got to go over to them and smash potentially the two pieces of terrain in their territory or something like that This this can still be hard If they've got a if it's a half and half map like completely split down the middle There could be quite a few still like that could still be pushing it. It's possible There's still six pieces In a world where where it's on that that like down the middle half and half territory map But if it's any kind of smaller shrunken territory, this becomes much more doable It's not impossible is the point. I still I'm not sure it's good But at least in most games it should be mathematically possible now So hey, there you go. Sure Brian said are we covering ionis dragon and the new uh, kernolf beetle scrolls? No, we're not going to cover those today I know they release the scrolls. I know they release everything But dawn bringers is going to be out They're for pre-order rather I should say on saturday So we're just going to do it all in one shot next week when we have more time to cover them in detail So we will deep dive on those. Don't worry that will be next week when we do dawn bringers and hit all of that up Okay Uh, so I don't have a screenshot for this last one, but tom The last one is that the um They updated the iron jaws So that the mega boss Or sorry the tusk boss. I apologize can now take both command traits and magic items from the iron jaws Which is great A very simple change a very necessary change like completely ridiculous that we had Uh, these two these new figs that were beautiful and clearly meant to be used in the army And yet had no ability to actually take any command traits or Uh Or magic items from the list, but now they can um as those have both been updated um, so great, um It's wonderful, uh, so for me this means probably like, um Uh mega bossy Would be an off of a pretty common choice that allows you to double issue mighty destroyers So you're kind of getting a little mini version of the maw crusher there to some degree Um, I could also see maybe like hulking brood or something like that like there's there's options there It brings destroyer back on the table, which I think is really important because the big pig Is kind of pillow fisted sometimes especially depending on where your momentum happens to be uh, so Like that gives you some good options there to actually like punch the destroyer in In the right round and you know, you up the big guy on top his damage by three Which is great because he's six attacks in his base profile So quite quite good if you happen to be on like a best day ever and all out then your six attacks two's and two's Uh, you know neg one or neg two depending on a wall Uh, and then you'll be five damage, which is obviously completely that's great. It's great great damage five damage is good So All in all that was the again I don't think it like fixes the army of renown in some way where it's good now I think the army of renown is bad because it's relying on Like big pig who's still overpriced. He's still overcosted Like all of the big pigs are about 20 to 30 points overcosted. That's just the reality of the thing for what they do Yeah Um, you know, I I would I agree with that Yeah, I play go ahead in light of that like I would say in light of that what's your evaluation of iron jaws just in general because they're in a bad spot Yeah Yeah Even with the new units. They're in a bad spot is my answer They are a very mono dimensional army still I like the new units. Don't get me wrong Um, but it's tough army building big pig as cool as he is He's very expensive and just doesn't have the output usually to match with his capability or with with his cost I should say you know, I've run big pig multiple times now and He does all right and then he dies like he goes in it's just a big pork missile like everything else He goes in. Yep. He hopefully hits like decently hard, especially if you have destroyer or something And then he dies He just dies like to anything that comes to fight him Because he's just a he's just 14 wounds on a three up save That's it. Yeah For 380 points Right That is a lot of points and if you take the step down To the non hero version. Yeah, you save like 110 points. He's like 270 But you lose the hero thing obviously, which is meaningful. It's impactful, right? Yeah But also, yeah, you go to a four up save which means you're even more dead more fast Right. Yeah So I mean the momentum is just underwhelming as a rule. It's very hard to build momentum. It's very easy to lose momentum You almost have to just get lucky and like on your first charge hit roll a three And get to momentum four so that that way you actually can have a chance at pulling off the Carve the ranks monsters rampage just betting. You're just you're just betting the farm twice I need to get a 33 followed by a 50 Like that's what ultimately how you get a good play experience out of a pig and that's terrible right because Mathematically that basically means you've got like a 17 chance to actually achieve what you're trying to achieve with your big pig And have him work the way he should work You know giving round So That's rough I mean, he's he's fun. I like him. Don't get me wrong. I still I'm going to keep using him But he's not a strong piece, right? And that's true for most iron jaw stuff like brutes What are brutes do right now? And by the way, you're probably going to have brute battle line because you want to be running If you're using big pig, you're probably going to have brute battle line because uh You want to be running um in iron suns So you have counter charge as a possibility because that is a good way to build momentum off turn like that's real Um, and actually quite meaningful But then you don't have pigs as battle line So all you have is ard boys and brutes and ard boys at 10 for 220 is really expensive battle line Right, so you've got a real battle line problem right now in the army um So Overall you tend to use brutes. It's just because like it's you need something that's somewhat cheaper If you're going to fit other stuff in and like I don't know what brutes actually do right now Then like they don't accomplish much is the short answer Yeah, like like it's a real shame as a unit there they look amazing They do basically nothing Um, I took five brutes Into 10 skinks Okay Those skinks did not have any spell on them. These are 10 normal skinks They had no spells. No extra buffs. No nothing They did not receive an all out defense. They got there was you know, nothing had like nothing These are 10 wounds on like a six up save Right sure Because they were the I don't even think they had the shields And You know, I I killed like the I think five of them You know Yeah, like okay cool Cool good elite melee unit there You know Yeah, if you're not lifting a shaft unit of 10 skinks. I don't know what to say like what are you doing? It yes, it speaks volumes right like That's just and there's such a point differential there as well Sure And yes, I understand smata 84 that they turn off one and two wound objective capture. I'm aware of their ability Okay, but that's actually a very bad ability because one there's not a lot of one and two wound models you end up fighting Two it's very limited on its range into where it actually affects is not like it touches the whole unit It touches within a range of them three Most things when it fights them back will just kill them and then that ability goes away You know what you know when they can contest objectives when they backswing on you when they crack back and just lift your unit Then you don't have to worry about that anymore and it's still just you know 15 wounds on a four up save again It's not that hard to lift Right. Yeah. Yeah So and especially because it's range modified as well off of the brutes So even if they don't kill the unit even if they only lift part of the unit They still vastly diminish That unit's ability to hold and by the way that unit only counts as like five total if it's intact It's not like it has some kind of advanced objective capture So it's pretty easy for them to kill a few of your dudes and just have like Okay, you turned off part of my guys, but I still have four guys not in range of that ability I still hold the objective It has all the making of like the early designs of aos 3 where we had some cool ideas But we're being like really reticent to do anything big with it Like if we're going to go forward with iron jaws into into 4.0 I mean the army just needs if we're going to do this melee thing They just need to be on a three up save almost as an army or or find some different way to operate You know what I mean like that's yeah, because they're so mono dimensional now Ironically big wall has been performing great And a lot of the pieces we've talked about like brute reccas A lot of this stuff Even the big pig is so much better in big wall so much better where he can just like be on twos and twos almost all the time So I mean, maybe the other option is yeah, I mean, maybe the other option is in 4.0 It's just we get rid of this distinction. And it's just it's just work work lands Right, it's just one army And it's just there's some key wording that that and power pairs and stuff like that that bring things together But like maybe the answer is they're just one book And it's just all one thing swamp bogglers and I mean assumingly The The other works are gone like I assume so I assume we're just bringing the other iron jaws and swamp bogglers at that point so And and and you're saying getting rid of bones. Let us completely. Yeah, I'm not saying that I'm saying I I have no desire to have that happen. I don't care if they stay or go. It makes no mind to me I've never found them interesting, but I don't care if they stick around or not I'm saying. I think they are gone in the next iteration of the book. I think all the writings on the wall It is an old it's an old book or it's an old model line. Yes. That's gotten no support. Yes whose home really is in Fantasy which is launching old world in the in the next year Like all of the all of the things point that direction and your swamp bogglers as you call them Um fulfill that kind of like uncultured niche Yeah, they I mean when they released the by the way swamp bogglers are cruel boys for those who who aren't up on the fun lingo Um, when they released the monster killers that that recent war cry group, right? And um And those guys were bad at army Right, which is like, okay. These are cruel boys now. Yeah It's you're done. You're done. It's just it's all cruel boys So like, you know bone splitters are are probably done now Uh my my particular feeling. All right, cool. Yeah Any final thoughts on the faq tom you want to share? No, I mean, I think that um, I think that uh, it's uh, I think that it brought some adjustments. Uh, it didn't uh I don't think a knee capped anything really overwhelming like I think it brought it back within what One would kind of expect Yep Or hope let me say it that way. Yeah, I think we where one would hope our means to be Yeah, we brought iron jaws up a little and we brought the other two down a little Which I think is again based on the tiering that I talked about at the beginning what we would expect to see So overall good changes. Uh next week will be dawn bringers Uh, sorry for the short show today, but I am on the road and at a conference and don't have a lot of time And obviously in a hotel, um, so thank you tom for making yourself available during the day Hope everybody enjoyed the afternoon delight of the uh midday show or maybe early evening depending on where you are in the world Uh, but thank you all for watching. Don't forget to hit like and subscribe Uh, really appreciate it. All that stuff helps other people find the show Glad our internet at the hotel wasn't trashed today. It seems like it's been very solid The very clean up and watching the whole time so great good good hotel internet's always a plus and um So yeah, I do that stuff if you want to support the show lots of ways you can do it Links are down there for merch Um for your all your hobby needs through various stores all those things help support and of course there's a patreon down there So check all that out tom. Thank you again. Thank all of you for watching Don't forget to hit all those things that make all those dings. We really appreciate it and uh dawn bringers part three Next week very excited about next week. That means next week. We'll have a story time So look forward to more story time with vince next week. But as always, thank you so much for watching and we'll see you next time