 So, hello everybody. This is the Open Global Mind call for Thursday, April 13th, 2023. This is a check-in call. I'm Ken Homer, sitting in for Jerry McCalsky, and welcome to our show. So, the floor is open for anybody who would like to comment on what's going on in their lives or tell us something interesting. I'll be glad to start with something. Please, Kevin, go ahead. I've been finishing up this conference on economic justice in Jackson, Mississippi, so I'm looking for what's new. And I've been in touch with this Indian woman named Deepa, who is kind of doing the best cataloging of impact dials anywhere through a series of, you know, two or three podcasts a week. She's an expert in analysis, and she knows, you know, all the infrastructure parts of the thing and the little bitty things that make the trains run on the tracks or whatever they do. And then the people doing it, and the people finding it and stuff. And so, she and I are collaborating on Twitter. Buddy Doug Rushkoff, a little bit engaged, and we want to do an impact dial theme at our conference in February. That'll be domestic and 65% per percent social and 35% toward economic, I mean, toward environmental justice and use a donut economic lens to put it together. It's a safe operating space for people on this planet. And I think it's going to be kind of cool. Sounds fantastic Kevin. Yeah, it's the kind of thing you can build in Twitter. This is a an in person conference, a hybrid conference online. It is an in person conference, but this is part of the thing where the impact dial folks really use Twitter a lot. So, you know, they're still here and because it's still working for them. So it'll be, we can use Twitter to build it and get people to decide, you know, the premise is that impact dials are the best way to build a collective pools of resilience within watersheds, linking mutuality to redesign the economy in a way that we can all survive, because you can change the fucking rules because that's what it is. So anyway, and there are people who know a lot more about it. I just have a hunch that I want to follow it. Sounds amazing. Thank you. Yeah, I'm pretty jazzed about it. I have a quick comment here I am at home. And basically, Doug Rushkoff back in the 90s spent about three months here, maybe maybe even six months while I was working on in Laguna Beach. But I love Doug. Doug is just wonderful. Thanks, Kevin. Yeah. Well, he and then we're getting in with the Institute for the future that and they're building this new model of the economy in the future they want to build now and I just sort of, you know, I'm involved with them and but he's got me involved with IFT up and they're going to be coming to Institute for the future, Marina Norris and those folks. Where's the conference held Kevin San Antonio in February. I hear Texas is lovely that kind of time of year. Yeah, I think so it's better than the life for sure. And much better than September and August and my God. Okay, we're good. Well they suggested the date so I said okay. So who's going to Texas on April 8 next year for the total eclipse. I am. I traveled a couple hundred miles to do it. It was amazing how it was amazing how how that's that's all I can say it was amazing. I went to the total eclipse in Oregon. A few years ago took the train and track up took a bike and slept on a couch. It was one of the most amazing experiences my life. I highly, highly recommend it. I mentioned Texas, the path of the totality actually goes up through up from Mexico through Texas and then the Northeast. So there's a lot of it in the US but you also want to pick a place that's likely to be not cloudy that day so Texas is is probably best. That's interesting. If you want to stay in the US Mexico would be great too. How do we guarantee no clouds for that. Pray. Okay. And that works. Isn't there something known as what geo engineering. I mean people who basically want to put sky sales up in the sky to reflect the sun. You know, because we can't be bothered to recycle or something like that. I forget. There's already a company that's that's putting stuff in the sky to reduce global warming. Not that they asked a day's permission and just like hey we have the money we're going to do it's just like ministry for the future. Or Neil Stevenson's last book. He has a book about exactly about that. What's the theme of Stephenson's book. It's that there's this rich guy who figures out they want to shoot particles to do reflecting up into the sky and then he gets some Indian folks who want to do it and then other folks do it and he doesn't know how to do it. And folks in Houston and stuff like that. And it's just, you know, the no time for consensus. Crazy rich people scared and realize bunkers won't work. They, they learn to sort of do gorilla climate action at scale. So one of the things that's wrong with that scenario is that it limits agriculture, because we cut down the sun. Sure, there's a lot of things wrong with that. But they think, you know, that the short term benefit to give the earth some time to breathe is something that will help us survive. Well, they think that then they should definitely do it what the fuck about the rest of us. Well, yeah, so that's that's what the books about I mean you know there's there's ethics, but then there's ethics and there's engineering, you know, who wins right now. Well, yeah, but what if the mom is wanting to do some climate stuff that the rest of us don't want to do and politically we can't get our butts out of our asses to do what's needed. Yeah, well this is this is Doug scenario of the, you know, the authoritarian solution but what if these guys are wrong. We're we're bad if they if they're. Yeah, it could be that could be that they're wrong. Could be that they're right and they're doing something so you know that's just that's the premise, you know, but that's it. I love that phrase. I don't mean to interrupt you can please go ahead. Kevin. Okay, Kevin I love that phrase there's ethics and then there's engineering or there's engineering and you know the current AI the current you know genetic make up manipulation crisper, you know, going on back to Manhattan project going back to. You know siege engines or, you know, God knows, you know, all our technology is part of us. I. Yeah, we have an ethics deficit, we have a we have a moral deficit we have an engineering surplus. Not sure what to do about it. Phoebe tickle in England has been doing a thing called moral imaginations. Which was something interesting on that same fact we should maybe invite her here. Can you describe that briefly. Nope. Okay, can you just whatever. Can you put the name in the other you go thank you. I was joining the Al Gore climate reality projects training a couple days ago. And he summarized what is happening around the world. And a slide show that was just absolutely stunning. And you're looking at images from Peru, one sort of Peru on the border, the young sea river running try oil spills that no one really reports on. It's amazing how much damage there is on a planetary level already. It was really it was shocking, even for me where I look at this stuff all the time to see it bundled up. This is really running much, much faster than than we can track. So it's amazing I did a kind of survey of the news this morning, and there's almost no hint that there's climate change going on. And most people seem to assume that the thing that they're worried about is going to change but that everything else stays the same. Like you can fly out of the problem to somewhere like the commercial airlines are going to still be working. I was on a call the other day with a bunch of media people talking about this coverage question and a couple of observations one is that it's very different in Europe and the rest of the world in the United States. We're blackouts on compared to the rest bill which is more engaged in reality. And the other was a question of how do you get it into the media here obviously with corporate control it's it's complicated but you know, do the weather people provide a potential channel what if the weather people reported it's not every day every week gave a climate report. And if you look back at the media work in the 1980s during the nuclear freeze where there's a concerted effort to move stories into news coverage parallel effort like that could, you know, could potentially be useful today. You know, I mean when you ask people individually is, you know, is this like you remember it when you were a kid. And start to bring you know, start to bring the Congress into a personal experiential dimension rather than pictures from around the world or graphs of numbers. Something starts to happen people start to recognize wait a minute wasn't this. I felt folks are old enough to remember driving across the country through the Midwest having a windshield covered with bugs. Doesn't happen. Doesn't happen. They're gone. Not just the Midwest anywhere. They're gone. It's like more than 70% of insects are gone. You know, ocean. Well, I don't need to go through the numbers you guys know it. You know, at one level it's numbers like 70% or two, you know, two degrees or another is the experience. Do you remember what it used to be like when you were a kid. And there's another phenomenon at work here, which is what it was like when I was a kid is also is huge different than what it was like when my dad was a kid 40 years before. And people get used to whatever's around so they don't recognize the changes over time. Yeah. So how do you bring that to consciousness and how do you know what's it going to be like for your kids or their kids. If this once I asked a guy on Martha's vineyard who was in his 80s. The difference between now and his childhood he scratched his head he said, when I was a kid, when the ducks would fly over the sky would be dark for 15 minutes at a time. Wow. From around five years old to around seven. My dad worked at El Centro Naval Air Station probably on Polaris missiles. I'm not exactly sure because I was five to seven. I remember seeing the moon landing on black and white TV, and I remember locus plague and crickets and just horrid insects where basically they had to close the roads, because the crickets would smush, and the cars could couldn't get any traction on on the highway and so they would crash into each other. And I remember being in my parents station wagon and being basically having the station wagon drive through a biplane spraying the fields and our station wagon getting covered in insecticide. I'll be DDT. Yeah. Yeah, he's to run behind the DDT trucks on the army post when I was in the fort for five years old in the clouds there are all there are three of us who would just run behind it for an hour or more. We aren't affecting at all. Yeah. The problem I've been problem. The phenomenon that we that we're dealing with struggling with is that you have a status quo system that that exerts so much inertia that you can't move the I mean and this is primarily I mean if we have these big changes that have to be in the markets right and the markets are so centralized and so controlled that you you you simply can't get in to make to allow innovations to really scale up. You see it like this geo engineering and you know that corn the proteins and what have you. Those are attempts to maintain the structure of the existing system. You know that we can we can continue operating the economy in the way it is conceived currently. And that won't work because you really have to make some fairly significant changes and starting with decentralization but that's the energy system or the food system. Well you need to decentralize and create redundancies and that just is not is is not in the cards right now. If I could duck. Go ahead. Thank you. Class use a very interesting term the structure of the existing system and certainly you know I've been paying attention to, you know, social changes in Detroit and places that have been abandoned. And, you know, you mentioned decentralization I'm kind of really wondering about, you know, the bottom up changes that actually do work. And, you know, I know that's what you're doing. And I'm kind of wondering about, you know, what you just said, and yes, the system is difficult to change. But what we tend to do is, you know, I'm not, I'm not a policy wonk. I basically, you know, hang out with my friends and say, you know what, let's go to the, go to the forest and take some deep breaths and, and, you know, bring some organic food with us. Certainly that's not a scale. So I wonder, you know, what you do seems to be a bottom up kind of approach, and I'm wondering how, given you talk about the structure of the system and how difficult it is to change. So imagine that we can do the bottom up. Thank you. Costs to respond to that. Yeah, I mean, we just started, you know, I've been bouncing all over the place. I'm embedded with the Sierra Club. And, and, and there is some some really good energy development there. You know, it's in the climate lobby and so on, but in which really taught me how the legislative process works the legal process. So, so there's great deal of engagement with regenerate America. You know, this lobbying efforts I've been personally able to, to participate in meetings with Senate and House members. With the educational perspective. So that's, that's all, that's all running. We are now, you know, if you're really interested in looking at what we could do. I've come down to the point where we just have to disseminate information, you just have to let people know. And, and so, you know, we started the project that is Monday meeting where we are trying to connect garden worlds. That's the vision of a destination, right, garden world is a place to go towards and talk about a pathway, how do you get from here to there. So, and, and, and with that is the, the thoughts that we should use to look at on a metals leverage points of the system. Because when you have that but it does it goes from narrative, it's an upside down pyramid right you go. The narrative carries the system. And my apologies. Sorry, sorry, I can't I have to call you back. So to go so to translate the narrative, what does this narrative mean now to the next layer down to the administrative level to the next level down to the engineering level. You know, so, so you need to, you need to come down to the point where this makes sense to the chef in a catering operation to the purchasing manager of a restaurant chain right so to translate the information down. It's a common vision that can be that can be operationalized so to speak. And, and all we can do at this point is, is create a pathway so people can visualize, you know, how, how that, how that. Yeah, creating a path that people can visualize I think is deeply important it's been a core part of the theory of change that I've worked with for decades from Institute for local self reliance on up. Ken bolding used to say that existence is proof of the possible. And if you can show if you can show people something that exists they can no longer say it's not possible. There it is in front of them. So class, I disagree with where you started about the possibility of innovation we are awash in innovation. There's incredible innovation happening around the planet. Around renewables and ag and some and buildings and some transportation so many issues. The, excuse me. You know, the, the, the price advantage of renewables over fossils is moving very rapidly. I'm not going to go into all the details on that, but there's enormous momentum. It's not covered in mainstream media. That's another thing that we don't see enough about. But from, you know, from technology to grassroots, there's incredible momentum around the world. This is sufficient. No. You know, we've still got a world where 100 companies were responsible for 70% of the climate emissions. You know, we've still got a world where there's a fossil companies need to leave $100 trillion of assets in the ground for us to stabilize climate. And like any rational capitalist actor, they're going to maximize their assets as long as they can, which means they're going to drill until they have to stop and they're going to be stopped by one of two things. Either the price pricing will make it uneconomic to do it, which is a slow solution, or they're going to be forced to stop. And they know that there's enormous activity in Houston and what they call energy transition. One of my clients is embedded herself into that game, which is kind of crazy. But, you know, under the current rules, they will drill until they have to stop. And how do they stop? It's, you know, it's, it's regulations, it's votes and it's the street. The good news is that, you know, we've got super majorities in the United States on a lot of issues on abortion on guns and so forth. We don't have it yet on climate, but the demographics are with us. Younger vote, younger people are very different on these issues than older people are. The challenge there is that is getting folks out to vote or to be in the street or whatever. There was a piece in the Times yesterday about the declining voter participation of black voters in the United States. And the critical impact that's going to have on the next election. So, you know, I'm not as despairing class as you are, I see the forces mounting for this battle. But there's a lot of work to be done. I think part of it is, is, you know, the name that I'll give to what Kevin and folks are doing is not just top down or bottom up it's this distributed process at all levels across the planet. And scale doesn't just happen by hockey stick scale happens by horizontal spread or what I call the distributed, the distributed scale of the federated small, you know, scale happening in lots of places a little bit, and adding up into something it's hard to see, but it's actually emotion. Thank you, Gil. I just make one comment. We may have super majorities but we also lack that in the way of the super majority is the existing power structure. So, so Leslie came and did a presentation a couple years ago at Dominican University here. And he said, you know, you can have a 90% agreement among the American public that they want a law passed and has the exact same chance of passing as something as a 30% agreement because Congress doesn't listen to the American public they listen to the people who pay them. So, even though we have a super majority that power structure hasn't tipped in our favor yet but it's, it's in process I think there's an awful lot of stuff under the surface as you point out that's not being reported. And, you know, I'm hopeful things will change but I'm, I'm not hopeful they'll change in the timeframe that's needed. Nor am I but and that's why I said that's why I said the votes and the street. Well, look what's happening in Tennessee right now to say look at Tennessee. Nobody doesn't know they they reinstated the two gentlemen that were thrown out of the legislature and people are really pissed especially young people. They're like, we're just not going to put up with this anymore we this Justin Pearson I think said you know I didn't come here to be shut up. I'm come I'm here to fight for you. That's pretty helpful stuff. The next thing about Tennessee. If you give me a moment if you do you can push that for a moment. I learned this on the, on the news last night. Pearson and Jones are both 27. You know, then they're on fire, we're strong and it's a you know it's an indication of where the younger generation maybe is. Yesterday was the 60th anniversary of the day that another 27 year old black man in the south was arrested and put in prison for, I think it was eight days in Birmingham, Alabama by himself in a cell with no mattress in the dark. Had a newspaper smuggled into him with a letter from a bunch of white pastors in town saying we think you know these are important issues but it should be handled through normal channels and votes and the courts and so forth but not by people being in the streets. And this 27 year old man wrote a 21 page letter that you know is the letter from the Birmingham jail. And so, you know, Reverend King at 27 same age as these two guys I just found that that was a goosebump thing for me the resonant power of that. And I forgot how young he was. I guess because he was older than me so he seemed old. I forgot how young he was at the time that he did what he did. And so, you know, there's their generation generations coming behind us are going to do shit that we never imagined. And that's one of the places I take some hope. Okay. So, two things. Gil, I worry that you're, you sound more like an advocate than an analyst of what's happening. So when you talk about the oil energy companies. Stopping, for example, if we stop the oil flow, the impact on the infrastructure and almost all organizations would be huge. Things would come to a stop where we've got to analyze how that might go. Rather than just say, let's do that. Let me interrupt you. Let me finish my points. I want you to just represent me accurately I'm not saying that we should stop all the flow of oil instantly. Not at all. No, but you use the word stop a number of times. So I just want to say stopping has consequences we've got to pay attention to. What I, well, that's taken me away from what I really wanted to say so I'll pass for the moment. We'll come back to you Doug Stacy. Let me apologize I'm feeling a little sick inside. I put my dog to sleep yesterday. And after and the conversations making me kind of sick as well. After I put him to sleep I went to see a friend of mine who lives out in the woods on an estate, because I needed to be in nature. And we were sitting and talking, and he was telling me how, you know, he goes through the woods with his dog, and there are many other really big estates there many that have been left to open space. He does the rounds because he wants to a lot of them were designed by famous architects and they're being vandalized, because the two counties that they were left to, nothing's been done with them. They were supposed to be set up as education and we were talking about the farms that could be done and you know the how the land could be used. And I asked myself, you know, like what's going on because he's very active with all sorts of projects like that usually through the church he does architectural things and historical things and he said, no money, no organization. And it reminded me of you know class had been on another call and I get what I'm trying to say is, I get, I'm happy when I hear class and Kevin talk, because they're really the only two people I hear that I feel like they really understand there is a need to grab the people up from the bottom and get them working. Normally what I hear is, we have to fix things and we can do it from up here. And I, I have a I'm in a unique position. I've been around people that have a project and all they have to do is mention it and one of their rich friends will be like, Oh, you need 30,000. And I got it. And then I've been around people that can't rub two cents together to get their, you know, their little thing going. And it's just, it's just hurting me inside, knowing that there isn't more of an effort I mean, maybe we need experts to get teams together and go to town, and, and help officials. I don't know, but something in between feels like it's missing. So I just wanted to say that. Thank you Stacy and my condolences on the passing of your beloved family member. Do you want to come back now or you want to wait. Yeah, I did. And I wanted to ask a question of Klaus Klaus. If we went to a more localized scenario for food production, do the tools and the seeds exist to support that, or do we have a problem. All the tools, all the know how it is stunning really what happened just since I started engaging here for a few years back. The problem right now is access to markets. So when I listen to my farmer friends. People who have a regenerative crop, you know, a high quality crops that is devoid of or very low in chemicals and so on and so on high nutrient content, they can't get they can sell it. The market refuses to accept it. So they end up having to put it into the silo at the same cost as the GMO crops. So the, the, the, the, the design paradigm currently is top down, right. So the, the industry is basically dictating the to the farmer use this particular seed used to raise it with these chemicals. And, and bring it to maturity in this in this way it doesn't matter whether that's animal husbandry or raising corn, soy and wheat. And then that upside down because in order to regenerate the soil, you need to, you need to customize what is being grown by bio region because each bio region has different types of soil, different access to water, different climates and so on. And when you do that, then the food industry has to accommodate not these differences in crops. So for example, when you know, look at your, yours is a landmass now somewhere let's say to the United States, look at how many cultures are sitting on top of Europe. And how they are expressing themselves in different types of Christians. So you have the German, the French, the Italian, the Greeks, right, the Mediterranean where men so on. And the reason this evolved that way is because over hundreds of generations really they figured out what they can grow sustainably on that land. And they were able to live there for thousands of years listening about Japan, for example, Vietnam, China. They were able to live on that land for thousands of years without destroying their soil. What we are doing is we have already lost 40% of our soil in the United States. I mean, it's a, it's, it's catastrophic but what our current agricultural system or our form of growing and consuming food does to the environment. You know, and that change is going to be as profound as the change required in the energy systems. And, and, you know, just to put up the final point to it. One third of global emissions are caused by the way we call and raise food. One third that's not IPCC, the official statement here. So we can stop the the carbon outputs in the energy sector today and it wouldn't make any difference is the food system would push us over the edge Richard already it is doing on so many levels right because it's not just CO2. It's it's water depletion I mean there's so many issues related to it. So it's access to it's right now that's the critical, the critical issue. Thank you class. Mr Jones and welcome Jerry. Um, you know, somebody said you know what do we need to do do we need to send somebody to the cities. You know I was thinking today or yesterday about, you know, that's a really good idea that's actually really really terrible. The Rockefeller Foundation put up about $100 million to do resilience officers in like 50 cities around the world. But they didn't integrate them with the disaster support folks and that's who who is on the front line of, you know, the sewers backing up and everything like that. And so they were paid and they got an office but they were never invited to a meeting because the Rockefeller said, This is a new idea you guys need to go along and only New Orleans went along because New Orleans was really bad trouble. So we're looking to get fun to a role we call the system entrepreneur that connects all the groups working on things and is not an idea of any one thing across, you know, like race class zip code and across local watersheds to do we're using a donut economics lens because it's the only thing that gets the environmentalists to think about poor folks. Usually they're, you know, environmentalists by their heritage are genocidal they like the pristine wilderness God bless them. But you know it's always the poor folks downstream are always the last, but with this donut economics I'm finding that you can keep environmentalists at the table when a social issue is up front. And I think, you know, small scale network coordinated collective climate change is the only way we can go forward. So anyway, so Kevin. At first you said it's a terrible idea but I think you meant that the way it was done originally it just didn't work they had a disjunct and then I founded my brain and article from Rockefeller Foundation describing system entrepreneurs. Is it they're on the right track or has this. Well yeah they got you know I mean after after wasting $100 million they realized this is part of what they see as as right as opposed to this adjunct staff with a budget that you know you don't know who's already doing it and what their budget constraints are and you don't go in and help the folks who are already doing stuff. They came in with Rockefeller and they had enough money to get an office and a person staffed, and I had no idea had no idea you had to listen to people who were already doing stuff. You know God bless foundations fixed it are they are they better oriented now. No, no, they, they, they, they completely wasted $100 million. You know, but it's, yeah, well you know it's it's an instructor failures are great. You know, don't do it like that. Do you think learned that. What's that. You think they've learned from the failure. You know, foundations have no predators so there's no pressure for them to evolve. They are now writing about what I found with foundations is that they will write about the flaws in their theory of change, but they won't only some of them are starting to change the assumptions of power. Yeah, but they usually come in as this strategic person, you know the landscape architect, and they hired nonprofits to cut the grass, you know. So it's the power stuff with foundation, but they're getting better about that. So just to recenter us because we've gotten off on agriculture and a few other things here this is a check in call, if maybe like to check in what's going on with them. The floor is open. Mr Karanza. Thank you. Great everybody on this call. I work at the Internet archive. We are being sued. We are being sued by publishers who hope to take the ability of libraries to do controlled digital lending. They basically take the books that they have and, you know, scan them or, you know, get a digital copy. And basically, the large corporations, you know, any VC, if you're starting a information startup will basically insist that you do surveillance on your customers. And when you get an ebook through Amazon or through other ebook, you know, readers, basically they're tracking your reading. They're tracking what you read. They're tracking how many pages you turn they're tracking. You know who you basically have in your contact list, if you're sharing, you know, you're reading with people. We're against that. We think it's creepy. And the suit will probably go to the Supreme Court. And basically the argument is, we paid the authors we control access to what you read as a library. We're very careful not to store what people are reading, unless they want to. If you want to share it, that's great. My check in. Some people know that a lot of people die. tragic circumstances and accidents and it's been too much basically had to stop working, getting help and getting disability and getting on disability and, and basically, you know, navigating the mental health. System is a nightmare, a full time job, and has caused even more stress. But I'm resilient as fuck. And certain friends have helped in critical ways, and very thankful. I'm doing alright. But I'm going to take a while to basically get an official leave of absence. It's taken two months. And that's just wrong. And I still haven't gotten, you know, the disability so I guess what is it. Anyway. Yeah, I'm hurting right now. I'm hurt and serious, but I can see that other people. You know, when I when I go and, you know, hang out with other people and, and they've got worse problems. You know what doesn't make me feel good, but it heals me to help them. And that's been my salvation at least for the last couple months. I'm going to San Diego, hope maybe to visit with Pete, maybe. And a friend of mine is flying in from Baltimore and we were talking he's Christian. Make the short and move on to I believe Hank. And we were talking about the Tennessee murders and we're talking I mean it was it was a date of the Louisville Kentucky shooting. And I am raging about it. And people are like, Mark, you can't rage. We have, you know, this is, this is a workspace. Look that I am not going to shut down my emotion to basically molly coddle somebody who's me. That's micro aggression. Fuck that. And that's assertive. I have emotions, and I'm going to express them. Thank you. If it's unexpected on the workplace. Well, I'm going to take a leave of absence and let you know that stuff go. But the point is, he lives in Baltimore. And we were talking about the frenzy on the news media about, you know, some bank presidents getting killed some little girls getting killed, he said Mark, here in Baltimore. There's 50 murders every weekend. Every weekend of the year. And they don't get covered happens in Chicago happens in Cleveland. And that being part of the news media coverage, which, yeah, forgive me for saying this, because I don't mean it in a way that could be construed. But, you know, he and I were saying, yeah, these little white girls get killed these little white. Not little white, but these, you know, really nice people in a bank presidents and the girls. And the media freaks out. And we're missing so many other deaths. And I'm passed. And I'm doing what I can to heal. Thank you. Hank. You might want to take a little silence, but maybe not. I'm not going to enforce that. Thank you for listening. That's a very powerful sharing mark. So I do want to take a little silence and hard to revert to other themes after your sharing, even one so all encompassing as climate change. However, the peckin I was planning to do has a lot to do with the first 30 or 40 minutes of this conversation so I'm going to do it. I've been reading Damon Stontola's book about change, how to make big things happen. It's a very important book, at least I'm with urge of the way through and I realize he's saying very important things. And I'm trying to understand how it would work with people's awareness of the need for collaborative action on climate change. This is an interview in this morning's Dutch newspaper. Annie does Gupta, who's president of the World Resources Institute said that among the many great dangers facing the planet. The greatest danger to addressing climate change is that most people don't really deeply understand the consequences of what would happen to the earth if warming goes above one and a half degrees centigrade. This is about both personal and public image imagination. And that another obstacle for anyone to accept stories about climate change is that the message is too often framed as you must do this and you can't do that and there were all these other things you have to give up and it's going to be very painful but it's really important. And my conclusion is conclusion although he didn't say it that way is, you can't sell sacrifice. There's not enough stories about what the benefits of collaboratively collaboratively addressing climate change would be more livable cities, cleaner air, less inequality in the world. I'm trying to think in terms of Damon Santola, who are the most relevant people to tell these stories. Santola talks about the difference if you want to establish legitimacy of a message or credibility of a message or the relevance of a message. He more or less says, at least how I understood him, that it's the people who are most similar to you are the relevant ones they're the ones that you're going to believe so sort of paraphrasing what I heard I guess it was Gil say earlier it was Kevin downstream networks close to the ground. Is that the way to get the message of what real consequences are going to be to people and their families and their children, or is it the diversity of the people who have come with a similar message. That's what I'm trying to work out and perhaps others on this call who have also read Santola might be interested in talking about that either in this caller or other calls, because I think what Santola is trying to tell us is that change social change systems change paradigm change can happen. But what's the best way to reach the people who need to change. So I'll end my check in with that. Thank you Hank. Thanks for hosting can really appreciate it. And sorry when I jumped in I got all excited about what Kevin was talking about and completely forgot our protocols and you'd think I'd know better but there we are. I have like three different things can like competing for for space in my head right now. One of them is lots of really interesting generative conversations around generative AI. There's a lot of stuff up here in Portland where there were some speakers, Pete and I, and they see and others were on a call recently where a lot of the stuff was just burbling and and and seething in really nice ways. And it just feels like there's a lot of potential in the air. I'll sort of keep it at that but we're just at that. We're just at a very lovely and potentially dangerous moment. I tend to sort of look like now and then, but I want to honor that. Second thing is, I'm sort of trying to get myself back on the speaking circuit as a way of making a living. I prototyped a talk called confessions of a cyborg, a couple Sundays ago courtesy of Kevin Clark inviting me to give it for a group, and then had another conversation with a friend who really knows the speaking market and she suggested some other sorts of things I'm trying to sort my way through all of that. And then the third thing is really what Mark brought up into the conversation what Hank brought into the conversation what Kevin is doing with house talked about, I'm sure is and what Doug may talk about in a moment but we're just in the middle of major civilizations shaping and possibly destroying energies that are hard at work. Not always doing the right thing. And how, how do we cause people to shoot children less in America, I mean, when Sandy hook happened, and I realized that we were normalizing the shooting and seven year olds with a case. I can't find this article again but there's a woman who takes a picture of her three kids every morning before taking them to school, because she wants to know what they were wearing that day in case she has to identify them by their clothing. And that's the world that we're sort of in, and things have been bad before there's a whole bunch of other things you know up but, but that's kind of that plus is the US going to go to China, plus are why are we ignoring climate climate change. So I keep trying to figure out what is the, what is the I key to move on all these things to soften people up to cooperate more, because if we can't figure out how to cooperate more we're not going to get there. That's my chicken. Thank you Jerry, I just like to ask people to think about this. Because it's something I'm, I'm grappling with myself of. How do we stay grounded in the midst of all this is this is so much bigger than anything I ever thought that I would have to cope with. And, you know, open goal of mind is one way I stay grounded because I check in with you folks I have a few, but man it's tough right now it's really fucking tough. And it's, you know, I try to focus on the good and the positive and that the things that are going on the underground that we don't see not in the media but the more I learn about what's going on the harder it is to keep that disparate bay and to think you know we're just headed for a really bad end here I think we've gone off the cliff and we haven't looked down yet we're like Wiley Cody out there, you know, just not realizing that we haven't. We're about to fall really fast so anybody has thoughts on on how to be resilient in the face of that. I'd love to hear them. Mr Carmichael. Well my thought about how to be resilient for myself has been to reframe it somewhat jokingly as you know it's, it's going to be over, but it's been a great party and we should celebrate what a great party it's been. If you go to a great party, you don't talk about oh it's so sad the party is over. You feel really grateful for having participated. So I realized that that's a slightly smirky idea, but I find it. You know that facing the dignity isn't facing the facts as they are. The reason to tell the truth about what's happening, which is basically we're probably not going to make it is that only by facing the truth are things serious enough to liberate the imagination at the level that we need, which is a major restructuring which might take cost a lot of lives a lot of systems a lot of difficult things. Fake hope really castrates imagination. And I think it's important. The most likely scenario now is that things are going to collapse much more rapidly than almost everybody thinks the temperature is going to rise we're going to have a hot summer that's going to affect water and food around the world as class knows. And it's going to be a really difficult time. And I'm struck by how most people assume that most systems will stay in place. For example, the, when the big institutions talk about climate change, assume that people are going to keep going to work. If people get the idea that things are really bad they're not going to bother to go to work why do that. And if they don't go to work it's going to tear apart supply chains. And we're going to get cascading events. Anyway, I think that just seeing how bad it is all all high probability scenarios are terrible. We need to focus on low probability scenarios and really work hard to try and make them happen. But it's so far we don't know what those would be. There is no plausible scenario right now, anywhere for how we're going to actually limit CO2 production. It just doesn't end the rent. Thank you Doug. Gil, you're muted. I know it's your first time on zoom so we'll forgive you. Moving on the side. I just overlay it. I was, I wasn't sure how to check in but Ken and Doug give me an on ramp to that story so thank you for what you both said Doug I really like what you said about the dignity of facing the facts. And I think it's part of the it's part of it's one of the one part of the answer how do we stay grounded is that it's important to though to for me at least to be careful about facing the facts and thinking that I can predict the future. And one of the places that I found grounding and solace in these last few years is, is abandoning prediction, which is a game I used to play a lot. It's different than, than anticipating what might happen and looking at scenarios and facing the facts and imagining where we could go and what the possibilities are. But I'm really disciplining myself to get off of the notion, get off the arrogant of certainty, but I understand the future and one of the things I look to that is all the surprises that we live with now. And that I've lived with in my lifetime and six months before the Berlin wall wall fell nobody know that nobody knew that it was going to fall. Nobody and I don't know anybody who anticipated what 10 years ago, that guns would become the number one cause of death of children in America. And, you know, you can stack on examples good and bad of surprises that come so I take some, some comfort in that in imagination versus prediction. You said about low probability scenarios. How do we nurture those. But, you know, this isn't a horse race where we're making, you know, how to say this. I don't mean to be preachy to anybody else by saying this but for me, I find it in my body immoral to surrender, whatever the odds are. This might be long and I'm still in the fight for whatever I can do. I think there are a lot of people who have written beautifully about hope I think Rebecca soul that comes to mind as one of them encourage people to look at her work. If you haven't. We're not a florist you guys know I've been working with over the past, you know, half decade or so has been talking a bunch about emotional fortitude. But how do we cultivate in ourselves the capacity to deal with shocks. Without being taken down by them to deal with upset. And, you know, and praise and all sorts of things until you know it's a it's a discipline of learning to notice how my body reacts to news or comments or assessments from other people. And to find a groundedness and a steadiness those of us who have done martial arts know this in the physical metaphor. How do we extend that dojo into our life in community in interaction with the news and interaction with these possible futures and find some kind of steadiness in the midst of the insane turmoil and uncertainty that we're living in. So, thank you guys for provoking that sort of exploration for me. I am taking inspiration from your confessions of cyborg. I both admire what you're doing with that but it's also raising for me the question of if I were going to, if I were going to take my half a dozen possible speaking topics and turn it into one. That was me now in this moment in a way that contributes what would that be and I don't know the answer to that but I'm very much in that question and you've helped provoke that and I'm grateful to you for that. The big question for me in my work, I may have talked about this with this group of four. A lot of my work over the decades has been working with companies to help them transition into a more sane relationship with the living world. You know, the Shambhala warrior inside game. And I'm more and more. That's the word despairing. I'm more sanguine about the ability of current capitalist corporate structures to do what needs to be done. And so I'm more of my voice is going to kind of outside the castle criticism. You know, I've talked about the structural defects of capitalism and others and I'm, I'm perplexed. About what kind of off what to be doing with my life and what what offers to be making in the marketplace now where my sense is that the things that I increasingly really want to say. Aren't going to bring me any money and might actually collapse my ability to earn money. And if I didn't have a wife who was chronically ill. I would approach that with a different kind of courage. But I feel a responsibility to approach that with some real pragmatic caution. So I'm in that question. And would be, would welcome any conversation with anybody who would care to have it either who shares the question, or has some perspective on it that I might not be seeing. But on a completely different note, maybe not a completely different note who knows in the in the generative AI LLM chat GPT etc world and there's been lots of conversation about that. I find myself both fascinated and nervous about what this holds. I commend to people. Ben hunted epsilon theory as one of the more intriguing voices on this subject. He's a guy who is an asset manager. And a theoretician looks at the world a lot through through narrative analytics. It's how he guides his investment work. Publishes a bunch has a weekly call on Fridays. And so the perspective I'm hearing from him is that, you know, all the risks aside, this is not a 10 x impact on what our capability is. It's 100 x impact. And we better get good at it. Those of us who see a beneficial potential use of this stuff. Yeah, Pete, totally with you. So I've been dabbling a little bit on some matters that concern me some kind of just wild and exploratory some very pragmatic and I did one pragmatic yesterday I have a potential legal issue. From a deal done 10 some odd years ago it's an intellectual property issue. I've been getting talking with various lawyers and getting advice and yesterday I just framed up the issue in like 200 words very tight codes and summary. And said, you're an intellectual property attorney. I am the owner of this business that does this. Here's the terms agreement. Give me, here's the, here's the, here's the issue. Please give me three possible strategies to resolve with the least cost time and grief. And it started writing in less than 3 seconds. And in 20 seconds I had a fairly cogent. Legal brief of framing out the issues 3 different strategies, the advantages and disadvantages of each. I thought like, holy crap. It was not bad the stuff a lot of other stuff I've done has been about 80% good. This was 90 plus percent good. And then I said, okay, given that, give me, give me 3 negotiating strategies to proceed on this. And, you know, that 1 took. It was probably 6 seconds before it started to write. And it gave me 3 negotiating strategies with their advantages and disadvantages. They were pretty good. Frankly, I finished by saying, you know, go talk to a real attorney because I'm not 1. Which is, I plan to do, but I figure it basically, you know, gave me $1,000 worth of legal work in 2 minutes. So, I'm really impressed at, and this comes back on Pete, you've probably talked about this before to the value of this thing. If it is well prompted and the importance of us developing the skills, the capacity in the sense of how to use it well, it's going to be used bad in all kinds of ways. It's, you know, it's going to be used. It's going to be used bad in reversion to the mean, pure, low quality stuff. That's probably the biggest. People will believe it and it'll be used in evil ways. But what do we do with it? To support our work enhance our ability to do all the things we've been talking about in this call to do the federated. You know, basing the facts enhancement of low probability. Donut base, you name it. So I'm, you can hear, I've got some excitement about that. So this was like a little mind blown incident for me last night. And a brand. Thank you, Gil. Stacy. I want to go back to what Gil was saying about the emotional fortitude. But I'm thinking this analogy might not land on a group of men, but I'm going to try it anyway. Have you ever found a gold chain that was totally knotted up and tried to take the knot out of the chain? Okay, and you kind of shake it around in your hand because you want to loosen it up first. You don't pull it tight. And then when you, when you get that loose part, that's where you pull on. And I was thinking when Jerry, and I've heard other people talk about a keto and that's great. And I want to move a little bit away from that, because even that's like an exertion of power. And I'm thinking about this gun thing. And I do see a possibility for things to shift in this last shooting, because this young man that was the shooter in this bank robbery. I listened to the mother of the shooters 911 call, trying to warn people that he was going to the bank, explaining that he has no weapons because she didn't know that he had bought just bought one. I listened to the neighbor talk about he was a nice boy I can't say anything bad about him. He actually worked there. I've heard the worst arguments from pro second amendment people. Don't let the mentally ill people have it. We don't need any more regulations. And I keep saying more than 50% of Americans have mental health issues and that's not the problem. The problem is anger. The problem is all this rage. And people don't live in a constant state of mental illness. That's not the issue. It's the rage and the inability to control it. And again, these laws that are the suppressive laws that are making people that don't feel empowered and I'm not in no way am I giving justification to any of the shooters anywhere. That is not the point. The point is, whatever side you're on, whoever you are when you're feeling suppressed. You can only take so much pressure before you're going to explode. And while all of our systems where you all acknowledge that so many of our systems are changing and are due for a change. Our mental health system is one that really is going to need to change as well. And I guess what I want to say, since I am a very hopeful person is we really we do have to remember to breathe and that doesn't mean we're giving up hope, or that we're not fighting. But it means we're taking a step back and not behaving exactly like the people that we're claiming to say we don't want to behave like because. And you can't solve the problem with the same energy cause to create it. So if we could just ease back on our own emotional reactions, whatever that to whatever the situation and just react just slightly less and lower, lower that volume I guess that's my message. Thanks. Thanks to see. Pete, are we ready. Always ready. Or always not ready. So sometimes you just have to go for it. I am actually not ready to speak I was expecting to pass today but I've got my LLM chat GPT thing going in the background and it's exciting enough that I kind of wanted to mention it so that people will be watching out for it. So I apologize a little bit. I, the funny thing is, I, so I've kind of come to the realization that chat GPT is a, it's kind of like a general purpose computer. I remember 1978 or something like that. I was a volunteer employee in a bite shop computer store brick and mortar computer store of all things in 1978 in Nevada. I knew what a general purpose computer was good for it was it was good for playing doing graphics doing sound, learning how to program all that kind of fun stuff. My job kind of the reason the kindly proprietor let me play with computers all day. By the way, playing with a computer was a big deal. Our high school had zero computers at the time zero. I had a little bit of access through a teletype terminal with an acoustic modem coupler, like a World War two kind of like, you know, like teletype machine literally a teletype machine. That connected me and a few other people at high school to a mini computer. I had a CDC 6400 which was probably as powerful as I don't know like a calculator and now it's, but, but anyway, so I got to play with Apple to and I thought it was amazing wonderful tool people would come in and say okay I've heard about this computer stuff. What the heck would I ever do with computer and I had a can dancer from the proprietor which was well, you can do business kinds of things you can like write documents you can track expenses and I don't. I didn't have no clue I went 17 years old I don't have no clue why anybody would want to track expenses. But that was the can dancer I had but you know in the back of my head and they kind of like okay cool and then they go out to another store and then in the strip mall. So chat to PT for me, I know it's a little bit different, you know, people know more about chat to PT it's more famous it gets more memes. It's, you know, so I feel like whenever I talk about something cool chat to PT is doing most people like roller eyes and it's like okay whatever. You know and they kind of like suffer through, you know this dumb thing. I feel it feels to me like the first time I was playing with computers, and many people didn't get it the first time I was playing with the internet in 1992 93. And not many people got it. I remember trying to explain the email I had internet business in 1993 trying to explain email and, and stuff to to executives and businesses. It's like, I just, I just have my secretary type up a memo and then she photocopies it and she distributes around the office. How is email going to be any better than that I have no idea. I don't know what you're talking about. So anyway, thanks for letting me get all that off my chest. You might have seen me do a little experiment so I feel like I'm doing experiments with chat to PT and, and I feel like I kind of like put the experiment out there and it's like okay well that's interesting I don't know what I would do with that. So my last experiment was a thing called hot air. I accidentally kind of ended up having just GPT for write a story, which was, it's pretty interesting the way it worked. One of our friends Matthew Lowry said Pete I don't think this is a story I think it's a story treatment for a movie or something like that and and I kind of realized, I start saying story because sometimes a story is, you know, maybe she's never used or something like that it's a very short story sometimes it's a few sentences sometimes it's a chapter. Sometimes it's many chapters, sometimes it's many volumes you know so story to me kind of like expands and contracts and I have trouble explaining to, to people who use chat to PT writing a story, you know I say here's a story that I think they don't get that you can use chat to PT to expand and contract the story in different fractal levels of it. So if I give you a, you know, hot air the story of everything I call these things a chapter there's a vignette of something that happens, and it's, you know, a page or two in your web browser. It's a very short chapter but I know that I could go in and tell chat to PT hey expand this part or contract all these chapters into bullets or whatever right so chat to PT does this fractal jump thing at different levels. So now I'm using story to mean lots of different things of fractal different levels of skill. Anyway, the thing that I was excited about enough to take time, your time today. Yesterday on a phone call was fellowship link Jerry and me and some other geeks talking about hypertext and and tools for thinking and that kind of stuff. I said I ended up saying, you know, I think an LLM would be a good thing to make a pattern language with because one of the things LLMs are good at is you can take a list of things and then you say expand this into different stuff right. So I'm playing around in the background of the call and Jerry had mentioned a list of business strategies basically business business frameworks, business strategy frameworks that he had on one of his thoughts, but he had a pretty big list of things. And I'm like okay well that's an interesting list grab the list, give it to chat to PT asked it to make more of them so you know it fills in a bunch more. And this morning I've said, take the list. Pick just the best ones, pick some more. What would you call this thing. It came up with this. I asked it for a title at some point, essential business strategy management frameworks. So I this morning I kind of like tried to shuffle it around and get the good ones. And it did a pretty good job of kind of like giving me more and making it more compact and stuff. And then I've been iterating as, as Gil says, the prompt thing is kind of important so yesterday's prompt to get it to write. So, so what I did is mashed up the idea of writing a pattern language with this list of business strategy frameworks. And yesterday's like yesterday's example and you know it was like wow that's pretty cool and you know I posted it to the chat and Jerry's like Pete, I think people would be interested in that. So today's patterns are a little bit better I've improved the prompt that says generated pattern out of these. And one of the things that I'm particularly proud of pride pride is a bad thing but I'll just give you a tiny bit in chat of, and that's a bad example. One of the things I'm really, really proud of is getting and it took a couple tries to get it to give an image description because a good pattern language has, it's kind of like a recipe or a cookbook or something like that and you have a little picture that's you know with some trout in it or something like that and some lemons and herbs and you go oh I get it I understand what this trout recipe is about. Same thing with any kind of pattern architectural patterns are kind of the same so included in the hey make a bunch of patterns out of these business strategy frameworks, make a and you know describe an image. And GPT isn't great at making images yet but of course I can take these over to Dali or Majority or stable diffusion. So, now I've got almost a complete set of, you know, patterns, I gave it 40 and it's still chunking through. One of the things I did was to say, and the bottom of each pattern put related patterns, and so it's some of the related patterns are ones in the list and some of them are outside of the list so I think I'm going to end up with 6065 or 70 patterns. I'll put this on a massive wiki and a day or two. And, and it seems like I'll have the start. So, another thing by the way I'm talking about patterns and I think I said pattern language in there I've really, I feel really protective about the term pattern language. A pattern language isn't just a collection of patterns. It's actually got into relationships and so the best one Christopher Alexander has has a hierarchical arrangement to talking from like chunks of cities down to city blocks down to a few buildings around a courtyard down to individual different kinds of buildings down to rooms down to building materials. So that hierarchy of stuff is really important. I think another thing that's really important is having patterns that have been tested so you really want an editorial process, a bunch of people who go through. Yeah, these, these patterns really are connected to each other. So I do not pretend to say that I have created a pattern language or GPT has created a pattern language, but it's, it's on the way. And it's really a cool thing. And it's something that I haven't seen before, and it's big and cool. So to connect this to, it's funny, working on business strategy patterns and talk having the call talk about climate catastrophe and other kinds of catastrophes. And it, it, you know, it's like, great, you know, this is a thing that we're talking about, you know, the, the old solutions not the new solutions, but to connect it to today's call. I would use the same technique to help coalesce the kinds of patterns that we've been talking about in this call in a useful and, and a useful way that's that's good for communicating into other people. So the, the output isn't necessarily the best thing to have to have in the world, but the process by which I got to it is pretty good. The caveat there is that it's really easy. So the way chat to BT works one way to think of it is, it remembers things. So you can say, you know, hey describe some business strategy frameworks and it, and it remembers that from having read trillions of words. So the, the facility with which it's going to create new patterns. It's very still very creative and can come up with new things, new combinations of stuff out of its memory. But I don't know, I'm wondering, it'll be interesting to see how effective it is at creating new patterns, patterns of change in innovation that we need for the next 20 years, as opposed to describing the things that that we've had for the last 40 years. So I'm interested to see how that works. But anyway, look out for, you know, business strategy framework patterns from from me it'll be on a massive wiki. It'll be on the list and on master on. I'm super frustrated because I've decided not to post to Twitter. And so I'm missing a key amplifier and distribution mechanism. So, I'm still not quite sure how to resolve that. But, but thanks. Thank you Pete. Doug. So, I'm still shifting direction. What keeps us from doing the obvious, which is to declare the internet as the instrument for reestablishing direct democracy that we declare the internet to be a nation. And everybody who opts in gets to vote. And we make it go large enough that it actually begins to affect policies and take over from the existing representative democracy that we have. It just seems to me it's obvious that the internet is direct democracy. Thank you Doug. Mark. Thank you Doug. I have to incredibly disagree. I think the internet is a tool for many things including political manipulation. And I do not trust the internet. I'd like to talk about emotional resilience. And I agree with Stacy, lower the volume. Yeah, I can lower the volume. I can raise the volume. I can have an emotional range. And when I push and repress that. Yeah, here's the metaphor of pressure and pressure cooker. If people are saying, you're triggering me, I go, you know what, I'm glad. You're triggering is not my responsibility. It's on you. If you would like to have a discussion how I could be lighter, I can smile, I can be, you know, yeah, let's have an emotional conversation. That's, that's humanity and repressing humanity is fucked. Now, wokeness has hurt more of my friends than Donald Trump and everything he's done. I'm wondering about that. It's weird to live in San Francisco. I have a trans friend that related to me in a conversation one, one, another trans friend of hers. Or his I mean they're transitioning so I said, I fear pronouns. I'm like, Oh, I totally understand. I've changed my pronouns to any and all, but that was changed from dude and brother. I really like masculinity and love femininity. And for people to basically tell me what that is. Hell no, we're going to fight back. But if I trigger you, it's on you. Don't force me to fit in your younger or older, or not me, emotional framework, because I don't accept it. I'll express me. I'll express me appropriately and inappropriately and if it's inappropriate for you, be happy to talk about it. I'll be happy to, you know, tone it down. Thank you. Jerry and I'm going to turn it over to you because I have to go in a second so go ahead. Thanks, Ken. And thank you for hosting that was delightful. And we're at the end of our time as well so we'll just wrap up pretty quickly, but a couple things that the call that I was late here for was me facilitating a group conversation that was kind of about China and the future of the And to my surprise, the first quarter of the conversation after a couple people presented was about woke ism because one of the presenters basically made the assertion that woke ism or wokeness is one of America's best exports. And he kind of surprised a bunch of people on the call I could sort of tell and we had an interesting discussion that could have gone a lot longer. But I tried to do a little bit of definition around woke because it's this really thorny word now kind of on purpose because the far right is basically weaponizing the word and blowing oxygen on it. And I think that anytime somebody says woke. Everybody's like, ah, that's the worst thing in the world and I'm like, people woke woke just means being awake to horrible things that have happened to people who are not the pale patriarchal penis people like me, and acknowledging them and maybe trying to do something about it that is all that woke means. And everybody was like, Okay, I got that and there was one black person on the call, who was like I taught everybody jazz hands and he was like, Yeah, that's it. And I went on a bit and did some more stuff. And I'm extremely interested in the, the dangerous politics of woke and woke ism because I, I am not post woke I don't think woke is dead I think woke is really interesting. And I'm really intrigued that somebody actually thought that woke was a major American export, because for me woke might actually destroy this country because of the, because of the battle being fought over it right now. Anyway, just wanted to come back in and say there that I'm interested in a creative way of framing or conversation around woke as one of our call topics, maybe next week is a topic call we do something like that. Let's let's do that. And let's let's figure out in the GM town square. How to step into that conversation in a useful way what would outcomes be that we would like or what would I'm open to whatever framings you want to sort of throw in for how to do that but I love the I love the idea, not afraid of the subject at all. I would love also to create resources for others to use, etc. See you can thank you. But let's see. So, thank you all. I kill Michael then we're going to wrap the call. Kill your muted. I think I learned like Ken said, newbie first time on zoom I understand. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think your definition of woke is spot on the danger of woke is not the danger of woke. It's the danger of weaponized money controlled polarized politics in America, which will destroy any concept that you throw into it. So that's, you know, kind of meta meta, but let's have that conversation for sure. Mark, you talked about the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the challenge to sure of, hey, you're triggering me. You know, you're triggering, you're triggering me presumes that I am a machine. And it presumes that we're a machine. And we're not. And so, you know, I can say, I feel angry when you say that. But that's a different kind of responsibility in the conversation that's part of where the emotional fortitude conversation lives like, you know, somebody's opinion is their opinion. I can take their opinion or not take their opinion I can be reactive to it and this part of the martial arts training is to, you know, is to learn to not freak out and have your breathing change and your balance go around when somebody charges at you with a weapon. You can actually cultivate different physiological responses different neurochemistry in your body, which is where all this emotional stuff is coming from anyway. On a lovelier note, I caught a little YouTube last night of Ian McKellen sir Ian McKellen. Pretty contemporaries, you know, in his old age talking about going back to Manchester for visit and getting into a taxi. And the cabbie said to him, where are you going love. And he said, this is such a remarkable thing. This is like a middle age man talking to regardless of gender, the passenger uses love as the pronoun. And he thought how nice is that for us to address each other as hello love. That's all. Thank you to better not last in the lineup because that's a really nice end note for a call but Michael it's up to you. Michael often we'd be done. I'll, I'll, I'll embellish that so it can still be the sort of ending point, which is to say that I love and this is something I was going to say, independent of what you said that I love non gendered pronouns and and lament the fact that gendered pronouns were ever created there, you know, there are pain in the ass when applied to non people. In other like as we know, coming from a language that doesn't have genders for objects. And the fact that they're gendered in other other languages is a pain and the fact that humans pronouns are gendered is not universal. And we're not to be the case. And it's really bizarre when you think about it. We had pronouns that told you before you knew anything else about somebody. What race they were, or what height they were, or what age they were. And we do that with gender. Why, I mean it's just silly. And, and, you know, the fact that we have to create this dramatically inappropriate pronoun of they, because we wouldn't dream of using it the way we do in English, but you know, the French don't. I mean, if we if we'd started off using it for humans the way we do for animals we don't know the gender of until we say he and she. It wouldn't have that negative comment connotation of Oh, you're, you're, you're objectifying me you're turning me into a thing. Which, you know, I get is offensive. Anyway, so three cheers for for undue ungendered pronouns and, and can we have more of them and you know love is a beautiful one. Thank you, we could just blend she and it and call everyone shit. That doesn't, that doesn't work well. I like love better. Love is love is so much better I do like that better and Pete thanks for finding that clip I'm going to go watch it right now. More. More. So, Spanish, French, German, all the they'll have genders like, then you have to remember that each thing, even though it doesn't naturally seem like a male or female is in fact called that female or female in languages and it doesn't map that nicely but across languages outside of language groups so the German pronouns your German, whatever, don't aren't going to match the Latin, Latin eight ones and what a pain, but maybe that's interesting. What does that mean in different places, what does that mean in different places anyhow lots to go I'm studying Spanish now and one of the hardest things is to get that gender matching. The easiest way to get through that is to like grow up hearing it so that you know when something is off. That's it. It's like, damn it. Yeah. Basically, listen to Spanish telenovelas. And also, and also music to that mark, not quite there yet. Well, again, and you know we are at the end of the call but the the immersion to basically just, you know, have it on in the background, while you're gardening. That's a great idea. That'd be my supplement to do a lingo. Yeah, got to go. Thanks everybody. Good day loves. Good day loves. See ya. Bye loves. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Stacy. Thanks, Jerry. Take care.