 from Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. Okay, welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. Kube's live coverage, three days, day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people doubled from last year. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next two guests are from Red Hat. Great to have these guys as our guest is also, thank Red Hat for being great sponsors. Brian Redbeard Harrington, Kube alumni back, product manager of Service Measures at Red Hat, and William Oliveria, product manager serverless at Red Hat. We'll hear a lot about that. Guys, first of all, thanks for coming on and thanks to your company, Red Hat, for being a great supporter of theCUBE and the community, the contribution you guys have helped us make. We really appreciate that. Thank you. Happy to be here. I'm delighted to be here. All right, so let's get into it. So Service Measures are hot because now Kubernetes is kind of like we're seeing that totally stabilize. And now you're starting to see the engineering and the value creation happening in layers, shim layers they call it here. We've got stateful applications. So you're starting to see Service Measures conceptually adopt. There's a quick update on where that is, how real is it, what's the progress, and what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it. Well, the beautiful thing is using a Service Measures, not anything new at all. I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas. They've been around for seven, eight years now and it's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of individual libraries that you had to implement into more infrastructure services so that you know that you just, regardless of the language, environment, et cetera, you've always got a certain base platform ready to go. Is Service Measures going to be a standard thing? Is it going to be Service Measures of your flavor? Is it going to be certain instances, custom Service Measures? How do you see that coming out? Do you see Istio, Knative? It's things evolving. What's the state-of-the-art? Is it going to be, that's going to be the new normal or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that? I think to some extent it depends on the scale that you're at. If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe, one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea of what that mesh is going to look like so you're building that control plane in the way that you need it. Where Istio and Linkerd and some of these other ones that come in is when you are at the smaller scale and you need to figure out what your control plane is going to look like, that's where it really shines because it gives you something that you can just start using and has some training wheels on it to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use from day one. So one of the other news items today I wanted to get your opinion on is SCD has been handed over to Linux Foundation and CNCF. So SCD came out of CoreOS, of course, which was acquired by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why that happened and why it's a good thing for the community. So I think for any stable platform, it's really been the theme of kind of what I've been talking about, you've got to know that it's safe to use the software, that there's going to be a longer term vision and a lot of community guidance around that and that's why Red Hat made the contribution. When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to and it was something that was ultimately a goal but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition. Do we go ahead and contribute it and then hope that other folks will join us in building it? Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from IBM around power PC architecture and masos and other groups coming in but putting it just full bore in the CNCF really guarantees that there will be ongoing community collaboration. Just to give a shout out to you guys at CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship because that's the startup dilemma you have. Do we get it in there as an answer? How do we support it? How do we make it better? Is it competitive? What's our focus? What do we optimize it for? But now with the Red Hat piece, you guys should lean back and do the right thing and get it in there with the right resource push. Is that kind of how it's evolving? Cause that seems like what's- It absolutely is. And you know, this goes beyond just SED. You know, the really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio that really isn't getting open sourced. And you know, you can kind of read into that, what you will, but it meant that there was no technology that was getting left behind and that our users who really felt passionately about pieces of software, again, we're going to be able to have that utility. Yeah, no, I think it goes back. You know, we've been at Red Hat Summit for many years and Red Hat is 100% open source, it must be. And even I go back to Paul Vian yourself and Brandon, all of the tools that CoreOS were creating is they were all going to be open source tools that you will be involved in. I guess, William, good point to bring you into the conversation. Serverless and fully open source have not been, you know, how you thought about it at least for the last couple of years. So, you know, before we get into the Knative, give us kind of the Red Hat positioning, where does serverless fit in the architecture? And then, you know, we'd love to tease out all the Knative discussions. Absolutely, yeah, I guess for us, serverless then is a lot about the user experience and how we can simplify how developers can leverage technologies such as Istio and service meshes and everything around the developer experience on top of Kubernetes, right? Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what we believe is that you should not be then tied too much to functions because we can do that for functions, but we can do that for any class of applications actually running on top of the platform, right? And that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this powerful, interesting project that's going on right out there right now. And we already have all these different players collaborating which is fantastic for interoperability. We make sure that we can leverage that implementation on different platforms. We can run that anywhere pretty much on top of Kubernetes. And that's a big goal to make sure that you can plug all these different parts as part of a consistent user experience there. Okay, so we had theCUBE at the Google event this summer when it was announced. I was at serverless comp this year and to be honest, a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads trying to understand it's like, serverless and Kubernetes are going together but I'm not sure I quite get it. Give us the update, where are we? When does this get baked into platforms? What can I do today? Where do I learn more? Right, so today what we are offering is I would say that the three big modules as part of Knative are build, events, and serving, right? So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless platform that can again work on any kind of application, not only functions. And we are at that stage, the project is very new. We are still in 0.2 release at this point. So there's a lot of missing parts around the user experience and whatnot, but we are getting there and that's where most of the focus is going on right now. But with something like events, like that's a perfect opportunity for example to integrate with all the different services we have available, let's say on service catalog or through the operator's framework for example, to connect to the applications that you are building on top of Kubernetes. And it was missing, that was part of the things that was missing to connect the dots when you're implementing those applications, how are you going to consume events? How are you going to consume services? How all those applications are going to scale? That's a lot of what we are addressing with Knative right now. What's the big walk away around the current event here at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great check. A lot of people find in their swim lanes or whatever their value layer check. Clear a lot more gaps, things white spaces start to appear when that visibility lifts. What do you guys see the opportunities for the community? And you guys certainly one of the big players, Red Hat leading the way, as this ecosystem is companies have never heard of coming out of the woodwork, this is vibrant. There are opportunities for people to kind of play in these white spaces. You guys have any thoughts on where you could give guidance to where people can jump in and create value? Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me. One is the fact that now that Kubernetes has gotten to the level of boring infrastructure, it means that there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable saying we are building a top that, we don't care about what the compute layer is because we just know. And so you see a lot of organizations that are coming in because they want to collaborate with other organizations and see how they're using it to cross pollinate and get new ideas. That's why you've got full retail companies like Nordstrom here that are the local band in town and they're happy to come and show off. And you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that, emerging companies that are finding areas, white space that we didn't consider as the kind of incumbents in the space. And they're providing direct value. I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions kind of coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of opportunity for the organization that has that five, 10, 50 million dollar idea to come in, build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kubernetes and then be able to port it to enterprise software that runs on a local cluster or across clouds. So new business model innovations are coming out of it as well, advanced opportunities. It's okay to have a 50 million dollar business. Not that it could be acquired as well, some other value there. Okay, microservices are hard to manage. Guys, talk about this dynamic. This is one of the things you guys really work hard to address. I know we hear a lot about it. Porting to microservice, hey, I'm at enterprise. We should move from our red hat Linux implementation to full cloud and let's go all in on microservices. Well, what the hell is microservices? So again, this is kind of like, I'm not saying that they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy. How do you guys make it easier? What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit and what are those things to overcome them? What do you guys, what's your view on that? Yeah, well, I'll talk about, for example, how Knative is contributing to that. Again, the whole thing that we're talking about not being too tied to functions is because again, I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available in the platform for microservices as well. And whenever you're talking about then monitoring, tracing, observabilities, it still comes into play. And again, solve that problem and connect all those different microservices in a very nice way. With Knative, since we can improve on the user experience, so you can do that in a very easy way. When you are coming from this brownfield applications, when you are migrating to the cloud, when you're trying to port those applications, it's a big learning curve. You've got to learn about all these different technologies, right? So if we can improve that user experience so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code, and then we can take care of a lot of the complexities of building and wiring together all these different parts on the platform. We'll do that, and that's a lot of what we're doing with servers. That's where the managed piece comes in, right? Right. And then the monitoring, is that part of it too? Yeah, well to kind of build on top of that, there is the organizations that want to kind of still design things the way that they've been doing it. And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat OpenShift Application Runtimes, or Roar, which is kind of, it goes more in the direction of the past kind of concept, which was just a big difference between OpenShift and Tectonic, for example. And through that, a lot of the Roar bundles for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the concepts of distributed tracing and Prometheus monitoring and things like that to make sure that you focus, again, to William's point, on building the thing that brings your business value and standing on the shoulders of software at the infrastructure level. That's great, Steph, and it's a lot more work to do. Yeah, last thing, I know Red Hat's been working on, just trying to, I don't know if you call it templatized, but how do I make it easier for people to just, trying to remember the name of the term for it? Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtimes, having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm, which is just, here is a great template, a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement the things that you care about, and really step then into the, okay, we know that the code's going to work okay, because we built that, we know the application platform is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of these additional hooks to manage it, so hopefully it lowers the bar to make it trivial to get started. That's awesome, a red beard, William, thanks for coming on the keep, really appreciate it. Just a quick plug, what's up next for you guys, what's on the horizon, what are you guys, what itch are you scratching these days, what's getting you motivated? The big things that's exciting for me is the forthcoming release of OpenShift 4.0, which gives me the room to shine on the GA release of all the service mesh stuff, and then in parallel, just a lot of the vector packet processing, FIDO, kind of high scale networking stuff is just sent to tingle up my spine, I love keeping an eye on that. William, what are you? For me, we just announced the dev preview of Knative in OpenShift as an add-on, you can just install and run that on your OpenShift, and like Redbeard said, I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well, to make sure that I can plug that user experience on top of 4.0, and we are already doing a lot for the Ops side, and I like to do that also now for developers as well. Well, when you're ready, we'll pop the digital cork on Twitter, let us know, we'll certainly cover it. Thanks for coming on, appreciate the insight. Of course, thank you for bringing the insights, and all the data here at KubeCon, CloudNative, of course, we're theCUBE, don't be confused with KubeCon, one of our conference is coming up, fun only kidding, we're not going to have that. Thanks for watching day one live coverage, stay with us for more coverage after this short break.