 And it's fun to hear different things that our speakers say, fun to hear thoughts on what the participants have and so on and so forth. So today, when we hear the word innovation, all these different emotions sprung within us. Some of us say that innovation is just another buzzword. Some of us say innovation is not for us, we are not in that industry. And some of you who are product managers might be getting pressurized by your business people, your folks, saying that why can't you think of different ideas, different user stories and so on and so forth, right? So what I am going to focus in this talk today is essentially looking at what does it mean when you say you want to innovate and specially when you are doing innovation in large companies, what does that mean, right? To give a little bit background about myself, my name is Archana Joshi. I am with Cognizant in a group which we call as Digital Engineering. So I lead the group there essentially for large digital transformations for our customers. So as part of that group, we have our product managers, we have our agile coaches, DevOps consultants, cloud architects, all of them trying to come together to put things differently for our customers, right? So if you look at innovation, which are some of the companies that you can recall when you hear the word innovation? Which companies do you think today are most innovative? Any guesses? Apple Google. Apple Google, okay. Go back also. That's fine. Xerox, okay. Any other companies? Amazon. Amazon, okay. Right? So Geo, yes, they have disrupted the telecom business in a big way. Yeah, so yeah, Geo is one of the innovative companies in terms of how they connected with the market and how they brought out their solutions, right? Irvind Eye Hospital, okay. They changed the way eye transplant surgery is taken care of. Yes, right. Toyota, right. So if you look at some of the companies that you talked about, right? Older ones, tech companies, newer ones, eye companies, medical companies. So today in 2018, every year there's a survey that Forbes does to figure out which are the most innovative companies in the world, right? And you will see some interesting names here. Some of those are of course the ones that you talked about. But you will see here is a name like Insight, name like Naver, name like Workday, right? Which traditionally we are not so much aware about, but they figure in one of the top lists of Forbes, right? So Insight is a company which looks at pharmaceutical solutions, right? So if you look at how they describe these companies being most innovative, there are different parameters that they look at. One is of course the generation of idea, another is the business pen that they put into R&D. Other aspect is how innovative is their culture in terms of how many new ideas are generated from the grassroots, which get percolated right up to the company and which find the light of the market, right? So there are different parameters which you look at. Now if you look at some of the conversations that we have with these large scale companies and the leaders when I speak with them, their common question to me is, Archana, all this is great. We know Agile, we know it makes us grow faster, we know DevOps. We are doing and moving things on to cloud. But that is not helping us innovate, that is taking us faster. But that is not necessarily helping us address the problem that our customers are facing in terms of what is it next that they want? What is it that they really need? So we want to bring in innovation, innovative culture also as part of this daily working that we are doing in terms of Agile DevOps. So the question they ask me is, earlier in the times we used to have an R&D department. The focus of the R&D department was to spend millions of dollars looking at what is coming in the market, do a market research and so on and so forth. But in today's digital world where there are so many things which are happening at a developer level, technology level, at a product owner level, just having a loaner department which is doing market research doesn't help. You need to figure out how do you invite that culture in your day to day working and how do you scale it up when you have 5,000 employees, 10,000 employees, thousands of employees working on different solutions, right? So if you look at the concept of innovation or if you just Google it on a Wikipedia, this is what Wikipedia says, right? So innovation is generation, innovation is admission. And realization, realization part is very important because ideas get generated, but they don't necessarily get implemented. And then you cannot say that it's an innovation. It remains at an idea stage, right? So innovation is generation, admission, realization of new ideas, product services and processes. So it's not necessarily only you need to innovate for a product. It could be a process, it could be a service, it could be a new way of delivering things. All of those qualify under the word innovation. So just a small quiz, right? So you see there's this bottle that we have. And unfortunately, I don't have a glass here, but I do have a bottle. So my question to you guys is, I have this bottle open. There's water inside this bottle. Can anyone turn this bottle upside down without spilling a drop of this water without using any other props except for your hand? You cannot use the other hand, just one hand. Any guesses? Can it be done? Thumb, okay, she's saying freeze it. That's one option. Anything else? But you have to do it now. There's no freezer here. Yeah, yeah, just one hand. No drop of water, okay? That's one way. And if it's a glass, how would you do it? Okay, so think laterally. I said, how will you make this upside down? No, you cannot touch water there inside this. You cannot drink it either, yeah? So he's saying when you turn upside down, let the water be like this so that it becomes down, okay? So listen carefully to what I said. I said make this bottle upside down, right? Upside down, yeah? A different way of thinking. So I'm not saying that make it upside down as in the way you usually would think, but I'm saying upside down. So upside down can be up, it can go sideways, it can go down as well, right? And this is what we usually say is thinking differently or thinking a little more creatively, thinking more out of the box, right? So one more fun quiz for all of us. How could a baby fall out of a 20-story building on the ground and still live? Any guesses for this one? Now start thinking differently, it's something like this only, okay? You got it, right? So he said the baby was on the ground floor, so he just sort of, just fell there only. So the baby still lived. There was nothing that happened to the baby and it is still there, right? But moment you hear a 20-story, you imagine the person must have fallen only from the 20th story of the building, right? You don't really get into a group saying, oh, the building is 20-story. The baby could be on the ground floor still on that mat and just stood up and fell down there only, right? So if you look at things like this, this is where we say, continuously on a day-to-day basis, how do we train our minds to think differently? How do we train our day-to-day job the way we work so that we don't get stuck into the rut that we are doing day in and day out, right? So if you look at innovation, you need to have an idea that solves the problem. You need to do something with that idea. You need to make sure that the idea is a different one and it's not like the one that I showed right now upside down. It doesn't give any value. It probably just makes things a little bit lighter, but you're not going to sell that idea and translating it to reality, which means you need to be able to use it, right? So that is what innovation is all about. When you look at these things and you compare it in with whatever work you are doing, you might be an engineer, you might be a product owner, you might be a BA, you might be a product manager. What are the things that you come across which you feel are barriers to working like this? Anything that you think which are barriers to innovation? So you feel that on a day to day basis I'm not able to innovate, I'm not able to think differently because. So any suggestions that you have? You need to have mental energy, okay? You need to have time. You need to report something for the daily scram. You need to report something for the daily scram, okay? You are firefighting most of the times, yes? Anything else? So you're not able to give importance, though you want, you're not able to give importance to do things differently. Because of the deadlines, because your product owner says you have to meet the velocity that you plan for. Better meet the velocity every two weeks in the sprint. If you meet it, you will have a nice product owner acceptance and a pat on the back from your management, okay? What do you mean by that? There should be encouragement. Encouragement, okay? Culture for innovation, anything else? Incentive, only if you don't get money you'll innovate, okay? Motivates you more, so motivation factor on why you should innovate. Why should I spend my energy if I'm going to get same amount in my bank every month, okay? Fair enough? Yeah, okay? Right, so the, okay, okay. So only when you are in a real fire crisis where people are ready to listen, you might want to try differently. So they are like, anyway, let's try what's there to lose. We are at the worst bottom rock, okay? There shouldn't be fear of failure, right? So typically, these are the excuses that we hear. I also make those excuses with my team, right? So I have no exception to this because on a day to day basis, this is what we land into. We say we want to innovate, but no thanks, we are too busy. Delivering things, meeting velocity, looking at the commitments, writing your backlogs, user stories, so on and so forth. We say we want to innovate, but as we said, there's no mental energy left. I can't even think out of the box. The person who is sitting next to is also similarly dazed. They say, even I can't think. So anyways, the whole culture in the team is let's do whatever is there on the table, that's all, and let's go home, right? Especially if you are staying in Bangalore, I am thankfully not from Bangalore, but if you are staying in Bangalore, going through this traffic back home, you just want to quickly reach home and relax at your home, right? So it's hard to think out of the box due to the day to day pressures that we have. We want to innovate and we all say, yeah, this is a great idea to get started, but we may think it could fail, it could be expensive, it will take long, will I get the budget, by then my project will be over, some other person will come, my scrum master would have left by now. Why do I even need to get into all of this? So let me not innovate, let me again go back to what I'm doing, right? So these are some of the things that you realize. Next, we want to innovate, but who is in the company who will recognize our talent? We are here at the ground level, there's some management sitting at the top. How do I even communicate my idea with them, right? Especially this is a problem in large companies. If you are working in a startup, if you're working with smaller companies, smaller teams, this is still okay. But imagine a company like Cognizant, imagine a company like a large IT services company, large product company, 5,000 people, 10,000 people, 100,000 employees. How do you even reach the areas which are influential? How do you renavigate through that bureaucracy and say that what idea I have really makes sense and is worthwhile for my company? It's easier for us to just go on a Google in an open source forum, contribute our idea there, get some likes there and start doing things differently on that forum, rather than within a company itself. And then that company has lost on completely to the idea that this person might have had, right? So this is typically a problem that you see when you start scaling innovation through large companies. And I love this one, right? So the management says, yes, we want to innovate. If you hear them talk in media, social media, if you hear them or see them writing emails to your employees, all of them say we need to have an innovative culture. But when you ask them, we cannot change, we have always worked this way. We have always seen profits this way. So this is a common thing that you see. That they say yes to innovation, we want our employees to innovate. But when you ask them, do you really want to do that? They say, no, we can't change it, it's too risky, right? So these are the common barriers that you will see when you start innovating and start taking it to a realization level. So the five barriers, there are several more, but these are the five key barriers that I call for innovating and thinking differently. First, no time to innovate, which all of us here kind of agreed upon. Second is lack of environment, right? Fear of failure, navigating your corporate structures and an overall resistance that you have to change, right? So now, let's see that how do we overcome these barriers? And what can we do within our control? So Diana was talking about locus of control. What can we do within our sphere of influence? What do we need to do with our leaders so that our voice can be heard? Right? So I'm sure all of us are aware of this manifesto written in 2001. Over these past days in the conference, I know this must have been repeated over and over and over again. Individual interactions, software, collaboration, responding to change. So when I looked at some of these things and I felt that what is that innovation is so different in some of the innovative companies? There's one thing which I felt was very clearly missing out. One is innovation and creativity over customs and tradition. Customs and tradition is important, but you also need to encourage more and more innovation, more and more creativity in what you do. And this should be your intrinsic value. The way you have your intrinsic value for your individual collaboration, responding to change, so on and so forth. If you want to build an innovative culture, if you want to build an innovative value, this is something that I at least felt useful when I was speaking with our teams and with our clients, where we are implementing these agile devops way of working. And that is innovation, creativity over customs and tradition, right? So this is something that many of us would be familiar with. The left brain and the right brain, right? So since morning you might have heard about these concepts also. Left brain is more logical thinking. Right brain is more creative, right? So now again one test. Can you guess what is this? It's a test of right brain, okay? So can you guess what this is? Any guesses, any weird guesses? I'll give you one hint. This is a PowerPoint representation of a picture that my five year old daughter drew. So she drew exactly something like this with her crayons. Okay, okay, yeah, so I'll tell you the story behind this. So one of the weekends my daughter took her crayon box and she was just scribbling something and she drew this circle. And then I asked her, what are you drawing? Is it a ball? Because the circle, blue color, so she said, no, it is not a ball. Then I said, are you going to draw a flower? She said, no, it's not a flower, right? So then I asked her, what is this? So, exactly what he said, she said, this is a sun. And immediately my logical left brain started saying, no, this is not a sun, it's blue in color. If she would have drawn at least a yellow or an orange, I would have said, yeah, at least it looks or resembles a sun. She said, no, this is a blue sun. I said, why sun, you know is yellow, I teach you, your teachers teach you that in the school saying sun is yellow or orange? She said, no, this is a blue sun. I said, why is the sun blue? Why did you make it blue? You have so many other colors lying around here. She said, this is a sun which I'm looking at it from inside the water. So those drops there was her sea. So apparently she was drawing water there. And she was attempting to draw water and she was saying, water is blue. I'm looking at the sun from inside the water so the sun is also blue. I'm like, okay, I agree. There was nothing else that I could say to it. So the point I'm trying to make is, as kids, we are able to use both our right brains and left brains very effectively, right? Because all these ideas very naturally come to kid, very naturally they are able to figure this out in terms of left brain, right brain. So she put her logic to also test saying that it's under the water and that's why it's blue. And she also made a creativity by making the sun as blue. So she was able to use both of these together. And the more you talk to kids you will realize they do this very easily. And we wonder how can we even think of something like this, right? As we grow adults, you all know that we get into our rigid personas. We look and perceive things in a similar way that we've been taught through our schools and through our parents and through our society at large. So then the question comes is if I want to innovate and if I have to start bringing that thinking into my day to day job, anything that I do, I need to have an environment which will foster this creativity. So if I'm sitting in a cubicle dane and day out staring at my screen or my mobile screen, clearly my right brain is not working. It's always my left brain which is getting the food and the fodder for it to think, but not my right. So the question that all of us need to have is what can we do as a team to foster this right brain thinking and what can we do as companies and teams and scrum masters and product managers who are working with large groups to foster this creativity in your day to day job, right? So here I would like to take example of Pixar, right? So you know Steve Jobs had a lot of investment in Pixar. He was one of the founders there. So when they designed the office space for Pixar way back in 90s, he had a very clear requirement. So he said there needs to be a large atrium in the building where you are so that anyone who crosses it comes across set of people whom they don't know. They at least say good morning. They say hi when you see some same person again and again. You strike up a conversation. And in the morning, there was an example which was given which says that if you have two apples, you exchange the apples. Those still remain as one one apple each. But if you have two ideas, you exchange those. Each of them you walk away with two ideas, right? So he was trying to create a space where there's compulsive collaboration that comes automatically when you are working in that kind of space. Now let's look at the reality. Not all of us have backing like Steve Jobs. Not all of us have those kind of spaces. Not all of us have those kind of money. So in our day-to-day life, what can we do to foster that creativity, right? So this is something that we do in our own teams. So what do we do here is whenever you have a retrospective, right? It's a simple ritual that team does to figure out what went wrong, what went right. So I remember, and this is a trend that you see almost in all the teams, first retrospective, lot of points, both in things that went right, things that went wrong, things you want to continue, lot of points. Second retrospective, team is still enthusiastic. You will still get many points. Third retrospective, not so much. Fourth, fifth, after a certain point in time, after 10 sprints are done, you go and ask the team retrospective, oh, we did that two sprints back. Why did you do it two sprints back? Oh, same points kept coming again and again. And we know those are constraints, nothing can be done about it, so we have stopped doing retrospective, right? So this is a trend that you keep on seeing. So essentially, from an agile perspective, you've been given a forum where you can think creatively, look at how things can be done differently, but because of this day-to-day rut that you are in, you are not able to use that effectively. So some of the things that we started doing was before you get into any retro, at any level, be it at team level program, portfolio level, value stream level, whatever level you are doing this retro, or you might be doing a retro for your product management group or whichever groups that you are part of. So we started to play some lateral thinking puzzles, something very similar to the what examples that I showed, saying that how can you make this model upside down? Or why do you think the baby is still live, even when the person fell from 20th floor? So this is one thing. Second thing that we started doing is, we don't have the liberty to create space the way Steve Jobs had in Pixar. So what we did was, how do we stimulate creativity? How do you stimulate new things in the way we do day-to-day work, right? So in part of retro, one of the activities that we started doing was painting. When was the last time you picked up a crayon or a paintbrush and started painting, right? Unless you are really passionate about art, a person in their adult life may not do so. So the things that we started was, we had a corner in our office, just a window sill where we had kept some pots and some normal oil paints. And what we used to do there was just paint. Start of the retro, go and start painting, whatever you want. Don't look at what the other person is doing. Is their pot better than yours? No, that's not the intention. Just take any pen that you want, mix it with whatever colors you want and start painting. Other things that we started doing was newspaper bags, right? This seems very, like, different. To say an IT company is doing newspaper bags. So we said, okay, nobody's going to give us a lot of money to start doing things differently. So let's figure out what we can do within the budget that we have. So we said, okay, let's do, we get newspapers daily basis. Let's take a bunch of newspaper and do newspaper bags. We'll at least learn a new skill that we are not familiar with. So many of these things like this, right? Like lateral thinking, newspaper bags, pottery, and there are so many other examples. So once you get the team thinking into different ideas, you will see many other things being done around, right? So a simple thing like to foster that creative side of yours and the right brain of yours, these are some of the things that helped us to say, okay, interesting, we could also start doing things. And after that, when you conducted the retrospective, the ideas which came out were much better compared to what were there when people just come around and say, okay, now there's a retrospective. And let's start off with things which can be done right and wrong, right? So then other aspect when you see a barrier to innovation is that when you are in a similar setup, similar group, the ideas also come out to be similar in nature, right? And one of the key things to innovate or think differently is talking to different people, talking, be diverse, talk to different groups and so on and so forth, right? So how do you do that? When in agile, we say the teams need to be long running teams, you have minimum attrition, you have people who are working in close collaboration. So you have to force people to come out of their comfort zone and say that, okay, is there any other way that you can go and meet somebody who you don't know and start having and striking a conversation with that team? So here what we started doing was we did something called as creative collaboration across teams and communities. So since ours is a distributed large scale company, we said, let a person in Pune pair up with somebody in Gurga and see what thoughts they can come up with, right? So, and then of course you have solutions like hackathons, just ship it days, innovation days that all of us are familiar with where these groups which are diverse groups come together and try and solve certain problems, right? So what we just saw right now is one of the barriers to innovation saying that we can't think differently could be triggered through these creative ideas. Second barrier which was saying that I can't think differently because all of my team is also doing something same. So you can do that by having the groups across different locations, across different geographies and bringing them together in events like this, like a hackathon, ship it days and so on and so forth to see results. But all of this doesn't address the biggest problem that all you guys were talking about, saying that I just don't have time. We are stuck in our day-to-day deliveries, right? So what do we need to do when you are a large team and when you are a large organization? So here is something that we call as accidental to intentional innovation, right? So this is a lovely graphic, the sources Gartner. So the Gartner report recently came out with an approach saying how do you jumpstart to innovation, right? So essentially what they talk about is if you want to bring in a innovative culture in your company, you need to have a structured approach for it. You cannot just leave it to the teams and somebody and assume that the teams will start doing differently, create wonderful workspaces and just leave it there and assume that having a nice bright looking workspace will do the trick. You need to focus on it and have a complete focus right from a business perspective, right? So what does that mean? So when you say that you want to do innovation, your companies have certain business goals. Your companies have certain goals that they have promised out to the market. So the ideas and the work that you are doing need to be in line with those goals. Otherwise you have come up with an idea, people are not ready to fund it because it doesn't align with their goal. You have come up with an idea but you don't know whom to approach because there's nobody in the company who is designated to take care of innovative solutions. So what they say is you need to have for intentional innovation, you need to have a proper structure in place which say that okay, if these are your business goals, what could be the different buckets or the areas where you want your teams to focus on and generate newer things and newer aspects, right? So this is one of the frameworks that are there. There are different frameworks that different companies have but this is something which is widely used. Similarly what we do with our teams, right? Say is setting up certain capacity within your backlog to take care of these innovative solutions, right? So all of us are familiar with your business ethics going into features and stories. Similarly you have your technical epics or enablers, whatever you call it in your company, right? So we started off with a concept like golden epic, right? So what does a golden epic mean? So product owner and the product management team sets aside certain capacity in the backlog for golden epics. Golden epics are these solutions, innovative and transformative solutions that the teams have generated ideas and those now need to be realized and implemented at a large scale. So at that point we give those kind of ideas in the form of golden epics which then get into the backlog and the teams who work on this get certain brownie points. So it's also in the team's interest, product management interests to make sure that the percentage of golden epics on their backlog, right? So doing this helps in two ways. One, this common complaint that we hear saying I don't have time suddenly taken off the table because now people have made time for it and specially put this into their day-to-day work and now suddenly all those innovative ideas which you keep on generating but don't have time to realize can be made true and you can actually go ahead and realize those. So having a great space is good. Having your people to talk about and generate ideas good. Now you have a planned capacity in your backlog where you can realize it but all of that is futile if you don't have defined roles, governance especially in large organization because people will ask how is this money getting spent? I am funding this epics but what is happening to those epics, right? So these are the common things that you will hear especially in large organizations when you are scaling innovative solutions. So there what we brought in was concept of innovation, train engineer, chief innovation, train engineer who then reports to a CIO in this case a chief innovation officer, right? And when I'm talking about scale as I said I'm talking about thousands of people, two thousands of people. So it's not like just a team of hundred. You don't need that, these kind of roles there somebody else can do this but when you have large organizations you kind of need this, right? So the way, so this diagram all of you I'm sure would be familiar with this is the scaled agile framework which is there. So what we did was we adapted this a little bit to make sure innovation and focus on innovation is part of it. So we had this train engineer who was at a agile train level. Then you had a chief innovation train engineer who was at a probably a portfolio level and you had the innovation officer who was across different portfolios, right? So this helped us to make sure that golden epics are focused upon are prioritized are indeed something that people take cognizance of, right? And along with this, these different roles had dedicated budgets and we also made sure that we are able to financially track it in terms of what is happening from an innovation perspective. Because as I said the biggest hindrance when you are scaling innovation in large companies is the bureaucracy and also how do you track the money that's getting spent on this, right? So with that I would say there are the way there were five key barriers which are there. So similarly, there are five key tips that you can look at when you are scaling innovation. First is of course the framework. You could have different frameworks. One of it which I showcased here was the Gartner framework. You need to have dedicated capacity in your backlog so that people don't make excuses. I don't have time to innovate. Look at having creative zones. Like if you don't have a creative zone, look at bringing in creative ideas like your pot painting, newspaper bags, creative collaboration across teams, across platforms and of course dedicated roles and governance, right? So that kind of leaves us five to 10 minutes for questions, yeah? So with that I'll probably end this with a nice funny video which I really liked on YouTube and we'll get into the questions, right? So this is taking innovation to its extreme. But that was a quick glimpse that I wanted to give you guys on what does it mean when you scale innovation? Any questions? Yeah. So I think organizations, what's been your experience? Like what are the outcomes that you've been able to generate by implementing? By this, by implementing safe and having goals. Forcing or it's more like telling people to innovate. Like hey, you know what you need to innovate, there are these goals in the picture. More of a push approach than trying to be able to find out people who want to innovate and give them, give those people some creative space that they can innovate. Right. So I'll address your second question first in terms of push, does push for innovation work, right? So I would say it's both ways, right? One is grounds up innovation. So people who are different, who think creatively anyways do it. Just that those ideas do they reach to the level in the company that you want to perhaps not. So hence having a framework where these people can have an opportunity forum to talk about ideas helps because today otherwise they'll go and put out that idea in the market and you may not even be able to monetize it. So that's one problem. So having this framework helps you to bring those things out and tap those right people, that's one. Second thing is if you want to bring in a culture of innovation and more and more if you are in this knowledge economy, digital economy, you want your employees to think differently. So today you might have to do a certain push but tomorrow this will be inherently done by them and it will become a pull, right? So for the teams where we have started this on our initial ways, yes, you're right. It may, they may feel like it's being pushed. The product managers then may see why do I have to bring in this golden epic concept when I could do something else on my backlog and prioritize that instead. So they'll feel this for two, three sprints but when they start seeing the results of how the teams are able to think differently or how they are able to contribute back to your user stories, it automatically starts generating a pull, right? So in scaling you need to have both combination and if you don't have that top-down approach then you will never be able to build that culture for innovation. So that's one. The second question that you are saying that are there concrete examples in large companies where you have seen this working and where you have been able to monetize this? So the answer is yes. So both in companies where I worked were also along with the companies where we have implemented some of these things for the clients. The ideas that were generated here were made it into the feature backlogs which were actually used by the customers and it's resulted into savings right from as small as $10,000 to few millions, right? So we have seen that and that is one of the reason why people today are saying that companies need to be more innovative and thinking because there are several results so that innovative thinking generates better revenue for a company. Yeah. We will apply the 23 to go back. Okay. Okay. Yeah, in SAFE if you look at it there's already one, you have some time for planning and innovation. So right if you look at each of the program increment part. Yeah. How many companies actually implement SAFE? How, I would say how many companies actually use that for innovation and planning and not like a hardening. That is the question, right? One is like even if they're trying to scale initially when they start safe implementation they're trying to do the practices and of course that one part of planning and innovation which is part of the SAFE framework they may just start with ideas but even to scale up to this level I think it takes years for a company to do and. Correct. So that's what it is like what happens is you know the framework says innovation and planning, right? Most of the companies use that as an excuse to fix last minute bugs things like hardening your things which you hadn't planned for the next PAI, preparation for that so that time goes away, right? Second is if there's no, because there is no one accountable within that whole framework to keep a tab on this it just slips under the radar. So what we are saying is here is while that framework is allowing you to do that make somebody accountable. So it's not necessarily you have a different person doing this it could be your RT if your scale is small who is also doing this in parallel as long as that's a KRA and a focus of that person so that there's a continuous focusing that yeah we need to be thinking differently we need to be doing things differently we have a budget for it we need to look at how it's getting spent and so on. Just an observation from my personal experience like many times it has happened that when you keep like start stressing people for this innovation so generally what happens is they start selling something like old wine in a new bottle and the scenario appears like it's the same concept but it is being presented in a different way. So I guess the main challenge here still remains the same wherein people are not able to come up with the new ideas instead of like somehow the other way if you have an idea it does go up I guess that is not a bigger challenge but the bigger challenge becomes like when you do not get those sort of ideas. So on the ground I would say there are a couple of challenges one of course is that in spite of doing all this you are not getting an idea and that idea after you do this within two sprints you will not see the results okay you have to give it up at least six to seven months to make sure that people start thinking differently otherwise you will feel that I played a lateral thinking game and suddenly an idea will come no that's not going to happen. So that's the first challenge that it takes time and you need as a company, as a leader you need to invest that time that's one. Second times many a times especially at the ground level I've seen is people don't even realize this is innovative so for example developers they would have developed some script which is going to make their life much easier, much faster if you take that script and use it across different groups within the company it might save 10 to 15% of their time but those developers don't even know that this is something different they have done or this could qualify as an innovation. So another aspect is to work with your scrum masters to encourage these tips and ideas which are coming from the developers so that they roll up to the right forums because one is ideas itself not coming I have seen another challenge where ideas are there but people don't know this is an idea which is worthwhile. So that's another aspect that we work closely with the scrum masters to make sure how do you recognize these kind of patterns and especially in retro these things come out very clearly and hence we have a lot of stress on how do you channelize your retro so this is one challenge which we look at and make sure people are able to understand that. My question is little bit different from the other one as you have told us regarding the retrospective during the retrospective we need to go for some innovation because every time the same thing is repeating like Okay go ahead ask your question. So how it will be helpful for that one means if in a retrospective we are going for a drawing or sketching or something else some other stuff we are doing how it is helpful for a lot of scrum thing. So when you do something like this it accesses your right brain which is essentially your brain cells which are responsible for creativity and differential thinking. So more and more you exercise your brain cells your brain will be used to using both these sites. So as the example that I gave as a child you are used to using both these sites but as you grow adult you use your left brain more. So how do you make sure the brain part which is unused you need to give it some triggers. So that's why this helps. So again as I said you play a game or you paint a pottery pot and suddenly ideas will flow that's not going to happen. These brain cells will start getting certain exercise after a period you will realize that things are changing and things are different. According to you along with the admins or all the sketching or all this innovation things we need to go for the retrospective or only we need to go for the sketching. No, so I'm saying whenever you do a retrospective start your retrospective with some of these activities like for two, three minutes. It doesn't take long, right? You're not going to spend one hour doing this. It's like five minutes you spend on this. It also creates a very different vibe within the team. It creates a very positive vibe. People are willing to share and generate new ideas. Sorry, I think that's all the time we have a question but you can always catch it off. I'm here around so you can ask me any question. Yeah, thank you.