 This is ThinkTech, it's our energy show. Where are we? We're in Hawaii, the state of the state. We talk about the state of the state. I'm Jay Fidel, and with me is Peter Rousek, from Hawaiian Electric, and Maria Tomei. I'm only involved in the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. We'll put it that way. I'm going to talk about two things this time. The first thing we talk about what's going on with the grid. There's news about the grid. There's news about the solar buildout. In utility-scale solar, we want to know all about that. The second part, we want to talk about what's going on with the state energy office. Lation has been proposed to reorganize them. And we'll also talk, we'll continue our conversation from last week with Maria. And I had a wonderful time exploring the leadership issues around energy in Hawaii. That's really juicy. Peter, you're first. All right. Well, as you know, I think I was on the show a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago anyway, talking about some of this. But last year, we put out a request for proposals looking for more solar energy basically on three of the islands of the five islands we serve. And we got a very impressive group of applicants, from which we chose eight company projects that had been proposed. We have sent those to the Public Utilities Commission just a short time ago. The Public Utilities Commission approved six of them. A couple more are still under review. And we now have sent, since then, we sent to the commission a request that they let us go out for another phase or another stage, depending on who you're talking to, of this renewable energy acquisition. And this is more specific in some ways. First of all, it very much relates to the fact that AES, the coal plant, will end its contract and go out of service. We presume in about 2022, it's September. That would be the end of coal in Hawaii. In effect, there may be a few people burning coal and putting coal in their stockings at Christmas. But not at the utility matter. No substantial amount, anyway. Certainly not on Oahu. And the other thing is Kahului Power Plant, which we have talked about retiring for some time. Kahului Power Plant on Maui, very old, workable facility, but running at the end of its life is going to go out of service by 2024. So five years, we have to make sure that we have enough capacity to replace that and move along. So we were asking the commission to approve this new RFP. The interesting thing about it, if you're a wonk, like you are, is that before, we were pretty much looking for solar with storage. Now we're saying it could be solar with or without storage. It could be wind with or without storage. It could be just storage. Somebody could come in and say, I'm going to build a big battery, and that's going to be able to collect energy during the day when there's a lot and be able to use it other times. We're also asking for something that's called grid services, which is basically getting our customers. We're looking for what we call aggregators or companies that will collect customers who want to have lower bills in return for that are willing to move their demand to a certain part of the day or even turn off demand. And it's more efficient, we believe, and I think the commission believes, rather than we have done this sort of thing in the past. You probably remember, we've got a little device on about 35,000 hot water heaters in the state, which we can turn off if we need to. And this would be a little much more advanced and more technologically sophisticated. Is this geographical, or is it anywhere and everywhere? It could be. It really depends on what the program, you know, what the, it's really up to the aggregator to see whether they, how they want to do this. And I think there might be, I'm not enough for the next part. There may be some advantages in trying to cluster this. And, you know, on relatively small systems, we're kind of clustered automatically. But we want these companies to come in and say, we're going to go out and find customers and utility customers who are willing to participate in return for lower bills and some incentives. And we will provide that service to the grid for, you know, a reasonable amount. Or you'll pay us to enable these things to happen. So that makes it sound like they could be anywhere. Because they'll be using the existing grid, no special geographic or physical structure necessary. It's just a deal you make that the customer makes with the utility to take his demand at hours that are more advantageous. Sure, that's correct. Although it may be that the provider, this grid service aggregator, I wish to have all of their customers in one location. So, you know, they have to put some equipment in and so forth. So they don't want to have one guy in Y and I and one guy in the Hala that they, you know, they'd rather have three or four guys in Y and I, three or four guys in the Hala. That's their choice. OK, that's what that clarifies for me. It's the aggregator you're looking for. The aggregator you're looking for, exactly. And he would deal with the customer. Right. And he would. Or she. Thank you. Well, it, probably. Or it. And the other thing that's happening, this is going hand in hand with our grid modernization effort, because, you know, as we increase the numbers of these diverse projects, big and small, rooftop solar, grid scale solar, wind storage, all these things need to be coordinated and need to be, you know, we need the 21st century grid to allow us to keep the power on, keep it reliable. And so, hand in hand with all this, and the mission also approved a grid modernization proposal. We're still talking to them because we don't, we probably don't understand it clearly. But what does it, what does it mean, grid modernization? Does it mean I look at the whole grid and I see what parts of it need to be refreshed, replenished, renovated in some way, replaced, and then I make a list of those things and I go about the business of taking out the old or fixing the old and making new. Is that what it is? That's part of it. The other part of it is, you know, do we have a computer that can balance off all of these rooftop solars with the grid solar, with the wind farm, you know, that it is or isn't producing at any given moment that can watch the system. And so that if one of the power plants goes down, it knows to instantly, you know, accommodate that. And, you know, it was difficult but not impossible when you just had conventional generators on the system. They were all pretty predictable. There was a dial, you could turn it up, turn it down, and you only had, you know, a relatively small number of them. Now we have literally 80,000 rooftop solar systems that feed into the grid whether we want them or not, whether we can't control that. We're getting more and more of these 30 to 50 to 60 megawatt solar farms, which, you know, a cloud goes over or a bird, you know, forgive me, you know, interferes with the panel and it can create problems. So you need to have a computer system, very sophisticated computer system. Also you're going to have all these aggregators out there. You're not going to be able to, you don't have the time and the energy to pick up a phone and say, can you give me, you know, can you do that? You basically do that with energy management systems and computers. So part of it is the kind of resiliency, hardening the grid, putting in, you know, metal poles instead of wood poles, putting in new transformers or bigger transformers, all the things you described. And part of it is the, you know, the coordination of all that through information technology and communication technology. I mean, we've been doing a lot of- That's brand new. That, well- That's taking us to another level of technology. Exactly, it is. And we have until fairly recently been using cellular for a lot of the communication, for example. Cellular, you know, is okay, but 5G is coming and it works much faster. And cellular doesn't even reach a lot of, you know, little pockets here and there. So you can't depend on, you know, the 20, 10 year ago cellular system any longer. So it is both the hardware infrastructure and the computer technology, information and communication technology. And it all has to go hand in hand. I mean, it doesn't do you any good to have a really productive solar farm that, but you can't, you know, integrate that into your system. Or is this another situation where you want a contractor to come and propose, you know, make a proposal to you on specs that you set up? Or is it the utility will actually go out and do this stuff to modernize the grid? Yes. It's a combination- Yes, both. It's a combination of both. In some cases, for some particular projects, we probably, we get a consultant to say, you know, have you had experience doing this elsewhere or you have the expertise that knows how to, you know, to program this sort of thing. We don't, you know, so the computer programming, the software, the code, something we might do with a consultant, we know our system pretty well and we know from experience and from other kinds of things, you know, flying drones over holes and seeing that they're rotten. And so for the parts of it that we just say, you know, we're gonna have to fix that sooner rather than later and here's the schedule and we will do that work or if there's a lot, we may contract that as well. So it's a complicated process. Yes, it sounds like because you have all these things and somewhere along the line, you have to make a list of all these things. It's a million things to do. I have here a list. There it is. Yeah. That'll be on another show. Right, exactly. I'll tell you what it's done. No, it is very complicated and that's why we have, you know, some really great engineers and some really great planners and some really terrific people who are sitting down with us every single day and making sure that one part of this doesn't jump ahead and the other part fall behind. It all has to move along. You know, you can't have one without the other and so it is a complex process. And the old problem is, you know, where do you hide down the technology? Is it today's technology, tomorrow's technology? How do you know you're at the right place in the curve? Sure, just like buying a computer. Do I wait for the next Apple phone or do I buy this one and find out in two weeks that I could have done better? That's part of the whole staging of our renewable energy. Everybody says, oh, do faster, do faster. You know, faster sounds good, but the fact is if you do too fast, you end up with some stuff that doesn't work as well as it might or that just turns out you don't need or that, you know, doesn't fit in with the picture. But you're never going to have a perfect result on this kind of thing because it moves under you. You can quote that. No, you're absolutely right. You can't, but I mean, you've got to go for its perfect system. You know, you don't go willy nilly and just say, well, great, let's just throw this over. That's why you see these RFPs, these requests for proposals are staged. We did a large one and now we want to finish this kind of allotment. When you say modernization, you're really talking about a whole sequence of steps. By the way, I can never forget that your email used to have, but may still have, this great slogan on the bottom said, the best is, the perfect is the enemy of the good. Is that what it was? I've had that one, but lately mine, it says life is what's happening while you're making other plans. Yes, I've seen that. Which John Lennon said, and you know, it really, that's exactly what we're talking about here. You go ahead, you make plans and other things happen. I mean, a year ago, if we'd been sitting here talking about this stuff, we would never have imagined that a volcanic eruption would take when the geothermal off the grid. And we think it's coming back, but we don't know when. So, we assumed then that that would be there and we would build on top of that. Well, good morning, here's the news and that is that it's not there. And it'll get back when we're able to coordinate with the state and the county and PGV. I take away from that, we all have to be flexible. I mean, we all have to realize that the perfect is the enemy, the good and that things change and we will have to change, we will have to always be watching to be relevant, to be connected with the technology as it exists and as it's promised. But let's go back and unpack one thing. You're talking about going out for utility scale installations of renewable energy. And you're a vanilla on exactly what kind of energy and you want people to come and make proposals to you and some will propose solar, some will propose wind. But what is the standard that you are expecting? How do you cast your expectations? How do you set up the specs for exactly what you want? Even if it's vanilla on exactly how they do it. Well, you start by knowing your system and knowing what can be added successfully and you basically say, here's the amount of energy we need, whether it's in the form of generation or in the form of storage or in the form of these services we've been talking about. You come in and tell us what you propose to do and then we look at that and we don't just look at the one proposal, we look at all of them and say, in this case, we'll be looking at a wider variety and so we'll have to figure out. You know, we can't just accept only the solar. You may have to say, we want to have some wind or we may need the storage. We're already going out for more storage on our own and we have a couple of other proposals there. So it is a balancing act. We go out, our general terms are, this is how much we need. It's a number. It's a number of kilowatt hours. Yeah, a number of hours of generation or generation displacement. And then we say, you know, and there's a bunch of other things. You've got to be a rival company. You've got to have, you know, you've got to be dealing with the technology we've heard of and this proven elsewhere. You have to be credible. Yeah, you have to be credible. If you're using real technologies and you're really in business and you're not dropping out tomorrow. Exactly, exactly. And we've been very successful with that. You see the companies that are building here now, you know, it's gone through a number of changes, it's on Edison and NRG and now ClearWay, but basically it's a very reputable company that's done a lot of projects. Eurus done a lot of projects across the United States. So that's part of it. But, you know, we don't know what's out there until we put out this, as you say, vanilla or, you know, multi-kind of, of, you know, fairly open kind of RFP. The last RFP, which we went out, which is a little more restricted, still came back with, I think, three proposals for every one we finally accepted. So some of those, we hope, we'll go back to the drawing board and figure out how they can meet. Oh, that's one more thing. And that is behind all this is always the low price consideration. Within the realm of reality, we want the lowest possible price. And we've done a lot of things to help make that happen because we would never say renewables at any price. Because if you could say renewables at any price, you know, you could do all kinds of things. But you don't actually say the price when you're going out. No, no. You just look at what comes back and see what's cheapest and so forth. Oh, what's the process on this? So you set the specs, you go to the PUC and say, we'd like to make this RFP, is that what it is? The PUC says, okay, that looks good for us. And then, so approve those specs, the whole program. Then you go out in public and you do an RFP and ask people to make proposals. And then you look at the proposals and some will be more credible than others. Some will, you think it worked and some you think maybe it won't work. And then you pick the ones you like, your utility point of view. And then you go back and get them approved one by one and see whether the PUC is approved. One by one or in the case, you know, you may do a group of them simultaneously, but basically they're one by one. Yeah, that's exactly right. Then you go through a negotiation for the best, you know, the final and best terms. Make sure that's all, you know, kosher and everybody's can meet the commitments, you know, that they have. And then you say, good, go build it. And, you know, meet your promises and be online by a certain date. And not until that moment. And this is very significant because I don't think most people understand it. Until that moment, we have not put a penny, not a dime of customer money or anybody's money into these projects. They're all being financed and paid for and operated by the vendor. So when people say, well, what about this? What about that? What if they don't come through? If they don't come through, we have not lost any money. We lost a little yardage perhaps, but we haven't lost any money. So we don't pay for anything until we see that electricity trickling through the, into the grid. And then we pay for only what we get. So if you build 100 megawatt, whatever wind farm, and you're only able to generate 50, we're not gonna pay you for the 100. We're gonna pay you for what you actually put into our system. That was a constant, I would say renegotiation, but constant monitoring of exactly whether the specs are being met. So how much are you looking for? Well, we're looking for, and it's very hard to describe what we're looking for because it could be all these different technologies. Obviously the numbers for solar are different than the numbers for the solar with storage and so forth. But I can give you the very rough numbers in megawatt hours, which will probably not mean a lot to you, but 160,000 megawatt hours annually for Oahu, which is roughly the equivalent, if it were solar, of 73 megawatts. So a, you know, a middling size, large size solar farm. For Maui, we want 65,000 megawatt hours annually, equivalent to 30 megawatts of generation. Kahului Power Plant is somewhere close to 30,000, 30 megawatts, so that's roughly a one for one, not quite. And for Hawaii Island, we want 70,000 megawatt hours annually. Equivalents are over 32 megawatts of solar. Plus storage, you know, we need, whether the storage is included in your project or in somebody else's project, we also need storage. You have to integrate those too. Right, so. You might have one which needs the other in order to function here. Exactly. So, you know, a wind farm in particular may not need storage to operate, but for that island, we may need storage because the wind and the solar altogether, we need to be able to combine it. And that goes back to the complications of the process we've been talking about. And it is a, you know, it's a real, it's a, if you get excited by that sort of thing, it's a really thrilling thing to hear. I know you do. This sounds like to be 10% or more of our total demand as far as my electric is concerned. Well, by the time all of these are done, we'll be well over a thousand megawatts of renewable energy on a system that peaks at around 16 to 1800, if I get the number right, I don't know if you're going to. What? A little less. A little less, okay. So this alone would be 10% of the whole pie. Well, this is going to get us by, we have to be at 40% renewable energy by 2030. And we are quite confident barring, you know, the other, the next volcanic eruption or the totally unforeseen. We believe we will be far in excess of 40% by 2030. And as you know, we've got to be at 100% by 2045. We think, again, if everything falls into place, we'll get there a little earlier, get very close. That's pretty exciting, Peter. It's very exciting. And it's, you know, when you look at, we often talk about, this is a marathon and not a sprint, but we started out, you know, 10 years ago kind of hands and knees crawling along. We've stood up, we're jogging now. We know more. Yeah, we know more. There are more, you know, things have changed tremendously. So I think, you know, overall we're moving faster, we're getting more, you know, this last, he said of the eight projects that went into the commission last year, this was the largest single infusion of renewable energy at one time, one portfolio. And this next one won't be quite as large. It's a phase two kind of thing. But yeah, it's getting more and more bigger. You know, a few years ago, when we opened a five megawatt, when somebody opened a five megawatt solar farm here on the island, we were all, we were raving about it. Now 30 megawatt solar facility is kind of, you know, 20 to 30 is sort of the minimum. There's some 60s and so forth. So, you know, we're doing more. Each one is larger, they're coming along faster. It is an exciting time. And you know, the good news, I think for most people is, we got it under control. We're, you know, subject to a lot of things. We are going where people want us to go. That's a perfect segue for us to take a break. Because when we come back, we're gonna talk with Maria about leadership and extension of our conversation from last week to see, you know, in this next chapter you're describing and on the way to meeting these goals, who's on the playing field? And what is their voice on the playing field? We'll take a minute off. We'll be right back. Hello, I'm Sharon Thomas Yarbrough, a host here at Think Tech of IE, a digital media company serving the people of IE. We provide a video platform for citizen journalists to raise public awareness in Hawaii. We are a Hawaii nonprofit that depends on the generosity of its supporters to keep on going. We'd be grateful if you go to thinktechhavai.com and make a donation to support us now. Thanks so much. Aloha, I'm Wendy Lo, and I'm coming to you every other Tuesday at two o'clock, live from Think Tech Hawaii. And on our show, we talk about taking your health back. And what does that mean? It means mind, body, and soul. Anything you can do that makes your body healthier and happier is what we're gonna be talking about, whether it's spiritual health, mental health, fascia health, beautiful smile health, whatever it means, let's take healthy back. Aloha. We're in Hawaii, state of clean energy. But while we had to break, we talked about how long this phase would last. And Peter said, well, within what, three years from now, we'd have it trickling through, so to speak. Yeah, we should have the first projects for sure, and probably a number of the projects in place. As I said, September 2022, AES Hawaii, the coal-fired plan is scheduled to go out of business. But we won't have a one-for-one at that moment, but we will have a substantial amount of what we need to replace them with what we've already gotten, what's already in the works. We will be in good shape. But one thing it tells me is that when you say that we're gonna finish this by 2022, if you ask me code, 2022, it's a long time from now. No, it's not. Not anymore. It is not a long time anymore to 2022. Nor is it a long time to 2030 or 2040 or 2045. So those deadlines are coming closer, and I'm really happy to hear that. Hawaii Electric is so mindful in working toward meeting those deadlines and cranking that in to its process, because they're aspirational in many ways. But if you make it happen, you make it happen. It's no longer aspirational. Well, you know, dog years are long. You know, there's seven dog years every human year, and for utility, three years or four years is four months. It's like the day after tomorrow. And it's, you know, the time moves very, very quickly. And these projects do just take a long time to get through the process, get built, get tested, and so forth. So, yeah, things are going at light speed as far as we can work. Very complicated though, you know, because it's technology, energy is technology, and it's changing all the time. And, you know, we as a community called with the energy community have to come together. So last week, Maria and I talked about how we do that, who's in charge, who will be in charge, how the government will react to the utility, to the consumers, all the agencies and people and providers and contractors. I mean, you have a list, but the list is by no means complete. There's so many people involved. And it was a little less of who, you know, how people are gonna react and, you know, how that dynamic is gonna play out. It was more like, who does what? You know, in the energy space. What do you think we completed last time, Maria? That, well, we started off with the legislature because they're the ones who were setting the policy and the numbers and the means by which we organize ourselves in these efforts, right? And then we talked about the governor because the head of the administrative branch is carrying out the director of the legislature. And then we talked about the energy office, the energy resources coordinator, D-bed and the energy office and whatnot. And then we got down to the office of planning and we're gonna get started on the PUC and so forth. Just a certain extent. Let's not start, oh, sorry, sorry. I'll be there for that one. There's a sign on your door that, you know, was talking about, if there's something new and different, talk about that first. And so there's an idea that was introduced and floating around and being discussed about having the energy office functions overseen by a board, a state board or commission. This sounds like the authority we talked about when Neil Labicromby was first elected. Yeah. And so, you know, I think you've probably had some experience with boards and that. I have, I have, you all have. You know, since we only have a few minutes left on this, I really wanted to hear your thoughts. You know, I can see some positive aspects of having board involvement because you've got more folks bringing ideas and whatnot. But on the other hand, then the focus of office needs to also be managing the board. I mean, the care and feeding of task forces was something that, you know, had been done by the energy office many times. Well, the concern expressed at the time that Neil Labicromby sought, you know, feedback on his notion of having an energy authority was that's a layer of bureaucracy. It costs money. There's political implications. There's delay implications. There's, you know, all kinds of reasons not to do that. When you start talking about a board, you're really talking about a board. I mean, if it's had any authority anyway, it's a board like an authority. And so, those same, you know, complications and issues still apply. But, you know, there are boards in DBED. DBED has a number of attached agencies that have boards. Yeah, I like that. Some of them are more active than others. Yeah, there's a whole list. I think the state, statewide, there are like 170 boards and commissions and whatnot. And, yeah, so it's quite an interesting aspect of the profession. Of course, some of them are regulatory kinds of boards. Some of them are advisory kind of boards. Some of them, you know, like cosmetology and things, help to administer the licenses for who is going to be able to do that particular profession. So, while there are a lot of boards, and not too easy to find volunteers for some of them, there's a variety of different kinds of boards. And that's where, you know, the devil's always in the details. What do you, you know, you have a public utilities commission, what would a board do for state government that the public utilities commission can't or wouldn't or isn't able to do right now? And, you know, the energy is a big, although, you know, electricity is very centralized to the utility and, you know, some companies that deal with the utility to get into other areas like transportation. And it's a hugely diverse number of players who have their own, you know, reporting to the Department of Transportation or regulators or even to the PUC to go get their licenses for their tourist vehicle. So, you know, what the question is, me is, yeah, how would it all fit? What was everybody going to do? And we're going to have a big fight every, you know, in the formation or every time we turn around between one and the other. And, you know, we don't mind being regulated by the public utilities commission. But if there's somebody else, some other board that's going to have any kind of regulatory authority that puts the utility in a difficult position, you know, mama said we can do it, daddy said we couldn't. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Oh, that's a valid point. So, you know, I think a clear idea of what and why and not just, oh. Can you see a model here where the boards would not get in conflict where this board that's contemplated by this grid you have on your desk? Kind of a thing. So I guess, you know, to the extent that the energy office was helping to explain to the public and the legislature and the governor and whatnot what the energy options were and the big picture and how it all fit together incorporating the transportation piece, the electricity piece, you know, what resources are available. That's informational. Right. But on the other hand, you have developers coming in using the maps and the other information so that they, you know, can get up to speed more quickly, I think, as you pointed out last time. You know, so those functions are different. So I guess if there was a board that was supporting that aspect of the work. But then on the modeling piece or, you know, the integrated grid plan. You know, it strikes me this, though. The energy office has not been as active as we might have hoped, at least Abercrime, behold, back then. And it doesn't emulate an authority. It never did. And it has a lot of reports that sit on the shelf, including London economics, which is still sitting on the shelf somewhere. So it's not really a regulatory organization. It isn't. And it wouldn't be even with a board, I think. And what's interesting, and I posed this for reaction by both of you, is that what's happened in the past few years is for the lack of action by an authority type organization or an active energy office. The PUC has taken leadership roles. And the relationship between the PUC and the utility, those are the two ends of the nexus that drives energy policy. The legislature is, you know, the legislature. What can I say? But the ideas, you know, the implementation of those ideas, the long-term vision, that comes from the nexus of the utility and the PUC working in. I agree that exciting things are happening at the PUC and in the electricity area, especially even with the distributed energy resources side of it, the empowerment of consumers to meet some of their own needs and provide support to the grid. But the energy piece is much bigger than that. You've got the transportation side of things. You've got the energy planning and policy and also, as you mentioned, the communication piece. So the regulatory functions of PUC were really intended originally to be looking at the monopolies. You know, if you have a monopoly offering an essential service that the public needs, then you need to make sure that it is serving the needs of the public, as well as meeting the requirements of the investors and all the rest of that stuff. We like to call it the franchise. There you go. But that is not the extent of the energy piece. You suggest that we're missing something. We're missing some organization, some person, some entity of some kind in the landscape that is covering these new areas. Are we missing something? Well, I think there are things that have to be done. I'm not sure that the approaching it from we need an entity is the answer to the question. 10, 11 years ago, the state and the utility came up with the Why Clean Energy Initiative. And with the support of the federal government, it was signed on to. Actually, the fed signed an agreement first. And then the utility thing was separate. At any rate. At any rate. Well, carry on. I like that version. But the point is there was a unanimity among most of the stakeholders who had to do these things, not always about how we had to do them. But that we had to do some things. The objective was achievable. The objective was achievable. That was the extent of it. Everybody came together. And we made substantial projects. Our progress over 10, 12 years. With having something to go to the commission for approval along the way. Part of it, yes. Yeah, part of it. So we didn't have to at that time. We created something, but we didn't create a massive bureaucracy or a new entity or a bunch of new laws. We kind of agreed, as happens in a lot of, it was sort of non-governmental. Certainly not a armed listing. Yeah, no, I'm not suggesting it was simple or easy. I'm just saying we didn't have to create an energy czar or a board of directors or all that kind of stuff that was going to try to enforce this. People said, we kind of agree with what we have to do. Let's move forward. And it won't get us to where we are today. Whether we need some new agreement or what, I don't know. I'm always wary of creating, as you say, another level of bureaucracy that has to feed and be fed and only adds to the difficulty. So I think, as you said before, as we discussed, this is not a clear path kind of thing. It's a kind of a stumble along, see where you are, stumble along a little forward. Wayfinding. Rather than a roadmap, it's wayfinding. At the announcement of the Clean Energy Initiative, you and I were there together. And there was this agreement that Linda Lingle had reached with the utility and the consumer advocate, I think it was, and the federal Department of Energy. There was 100 pages long. And I said, Peter, what's in there? Just don't worry, Jay. This is more an agreement to agree than an agreement. It's a statement of intention that we are going to somehow work together to work this out. You remember all these things I said. I don't know if I remember saying them, and I'm not sure that I did. That could be right. It was substantially an agreement that we're going to work together to get along. There were certain goals set, and some of them came to fruition, and some of them fell by the wayside. And progress was made on that basis. And especially, I don't know about other jurisdictions, but in Hawaii, a lot of stuff gets happening because people agree to agree. And we'll work together. Was that about details? Were the details being recorded? Because at the end of the day, each of the parts that are involved, first of all, things are going to change. Second of all, there are projects that are going to have people that are concerned about them for other reasons. You say, let's build a wind farm. There's a community there. There's a lot of other things going on. There's the environmentalists who are concerned about the birds, and there's the bats and all kinds. So for an individual project, you have to be open to allow people to come in and say, wait a minute, what about our concern? For an overall picture, you can't get all those people into the same room. So all those people are everybody in the state. This is the challenge. So you get the key movers, the PUC and the utility for sure, and some support from the federal government and the labs were part of that. We're very, we all agreed, and nobody was going to stand up and say this completely stinks. And then we moved from that through different plans and different progress. And I just don't think you could sit back and say, let's create a foolproof system that will do all these things. Because as soon as you do that, the next day, you're going to run into something that you didn't plan for. And we have to be faithful to our own sense of evolution, our own identity. We're out of time. Maria, can you close? Sure. OK, so we didn't get through the list of who does what in energy. In fact, we added more to the list. But it's been a very interesting and stimulating discussion. And good things are happening, but there's a lot more work to do. It's good to talk about these things. Too often, we're kind of in our, we're looking at this project, or this RFP, and nobody's stepping back. And you're always stepping back, Jay. That's the thing about it. I say the same for you guys. Thank you so much. We have to continue this conversation. Thanks. Thanks very much, Peter. Good to be here as always.