 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley. As we discuss marriage, raising children, and managing difficulties that arise in the family, we're ready to begin so let's talk marriage. You know in our marriages we have intimacy that includes mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual, but oftentimes the intimacy that's needed financially is overlooked. And here are some of the common complaints that I'm sure that we've all heard. My husband and I are never on the same page with money. Another quote is my wife wants to tie it but I don't think we can afford it. One quote says my husband keeps doing business deals that cost our family a lot of money. And then another quote says my wife keeps buying things for our kids even though we cannot afford that. What would be your guys' initial responses to any of those statements? You know I think that when somebody is having a problem with finances that's really a very serious problem because within the confines of marriage there are usually three basic areas that you have difficulty that can lead to divorce. Obviously one would be the quote-unquote communication, the ability to speak to one another and be understood. And then you have obviously the physical intimacy which causes a lot of problems for some in marriage and then the third problem that we hear quite often relates to the responsibility of management of funds, you know, of stewardship. And so that is a very severe problem in many marriages. A lot has to do obviously with the way you were raised and the way you came to see things that had specific value and I'll and for some people money is a pathway to happiness or to obtain that which I've always wanted. And so it really a lot has to do at least with Marie and me. It had a lot to do with personal responsibility prior to getting married. You know I and Marie both obviously we were not young when we got married by the standards of our friends. Marie and I were 24 and 22 when we met and we got married at 26 and 24. And so Marie already had completed her college, had received her degree, had moved out for a while. She was learning how to manage her money, pay her bills and things like that. I had spent time in the military. I had come out, I had part-time jobs and I was paying for my college because I was attending college at that time. So I was learning how to budget, how to put money away and be responsible with it. And so that was a path I already was on and Marie had already been on. And so when we married we combined our incomes, mine being almost nothing because I was going to school. Hers being what we lived on for a while off and on over the first few years of our marriage. And so we had to learn together what were the things that were most important for us as a couple. Again, every time you and I speak, every time we speak about marriage, I always speak of us. It's never been a just my money and your money and you spend it the way you want. And I spend what I make the way I want. It's always been a common purse. It's always been whatever I make, whatever you make, we'll put it in our common purse. It belongs to us. And together we will responsibly divide that. And the first thing we need to do with that, we decided was we need to make sure our bills are paid because we came from that background before my father was a Christian. My father still had had an integrity. So both of us came from the background where our fathers knew that paying our bills was very important. My dad taught me that it was an expression of my integrity. It was a revelation of who I am. It was what he used to say even before he was saved, he said, you need to take care of your name. Well, the scripture, the scripture speaks about having a good name, you know, and speaks often related to how we handle finances and things like that as it pertains to having a good name to be valued above gold or silver and things of that nature. And so we came into our relationship, both with this attitude that our bills need to be paid because it reflects on who we are as people, but it especially reflects on who we are as believers. Because the way that you use your money reveals where your heart is, you know, because your heart can be on the earth. It can be on material gain. Your treasures could be those things that you earn or purchase. And Marie and I made a decision that though it's important to eat and pay our bills and everything, we also need to make sure that God receives that which is his, seeing that all things come from his hand. And so it took us, I'd say, probably a couple of years of marriage until we honestly together came to the agreement that the Lord's offering, our tithe to him, our gift to him would be the priority. We speak of it as being our first check that's cut. Marie makes sure that the Lord receives that which is his first. And so that became fairly, you know, that became our way fairly early in our marriage. And I have made sure that we, and Marie obviously, her integrity is high in this area, we've made sure that we give to the Lord that which is his. And I think that that's part of our answer and part of the problem some people have is that they've never prioritized the kingdom of God. Because if they're thinking I could live better on 100 pennies than 90 pennies, they haven't learned the budget yet. And so I saw our giving to the Lord as being a part of our learning to live on less in terms of the amount that we had. Because I found out early on, Marie and I found out we can live just as well on 90 pennies as we can on 100 pennies. And I also felt that in holding back from the Lord anything that we in reality were robbing God. And that's something we both believe scripture says, but we believe that to be true. And so I think that when you have issues related to money, it's because you have issues related to priorities. And I think that sometimes not always, but sometimes the love of things on earth has eclipsed your faith that God can provide. And so we just made a decision. She and I fairly early in our marriage that we would make sure to honor God. And John, I can remember, I can say it like this. Sometimes people may be watching this and say, well, you're a pastor, you've got a mega church, you know, probably have a comfortable income and all of that. And people have a tendency of seeing what is right now and not knowing what was before. And what was before is not the comfort level that the Lord has provided over almost 40 years of pastor in this church. We had our first income. Again, if people want to go into an inflation calculator and begin to run the numbers, then and you can think that I received as an assistant pastor back in 1980. I received $969 a month. And I was paying that was pre-tax. Then there was the tax on that. Then there was the tithe and Marie and I have always practiced no less than a 10% tithe. And so you can begin to see that Marie and I were living on around $800 a month. And I had a $500 a month house payment. I had three children. And I also had a fourth, you know, two years into the ministry here. So we have four babies. And I wasn't making that much. When we planted this church, I was making $100 a week from the offerings of this church. And Marie was working as a substitute teacher. And she did that for a number of years. And even with Marie's income, which was around $900 a month or so that she was receiving, we still didn't have two nickels to rub together. But we also still made sure that our gifts went to the Lord because Marie and I actually do believe that the tithe belongs to the Lord. The gifts belong to him first and foremost. So that's how it's been for us, John. And so not everybody has done that. Not everybody has said, I really don't need this extra pair of shoes because I need to give the Lord back from what he's given to me. Not everybody thinks that way. And that's part of the problem. Because with Marie and me, we said, God comes first. And we had some serious conversations. We did. We did. I remember crying, thinking, I don't know how we're going to pay the bills. And yet God provided. I mean, literally, we weren't late on our bills. I remember one day with Marie, you know, because again, John, we had a house payment in small children. And one of the pictures that I have somewhere in my office is a picture of my Corinne, who is, you know, a mom of five children now. But she was a baby then she was maybe two years old and or so two or three years old. I forget how old I wish I could give you the exact number. I'm probably making her younger than she was. She may have been five or six. I don't remember exactly probably five or six. I'd like to be accurate when I give stories. Forgive me. But I do remember this. I do remember going through some pictures, you know, long after we had taken this particular picture. She was already a young woman. And so I was looking at these pictures. It was a picture of my little girl with a big smile on her face. And you know how you are with your babies and I am with mine as I look at them and I remember them that small and I'm a sentimental person. Everybody who knows me knows that. I have a great love for my babies and I have memories of them. And as I was looking at this particular picture, looking at a little smile, I had never noticed her shoes and her shoes, her little feet were crossed in front of her and so I could see her soles and there was a hole in her shoe. And see how I get now. I saw that and it brought me back to when I couldn't afford a pair of shoes for my daughter. And she never knew that it hurt me, but we never, we never stole from God. We just didn't. We learned to live on what we had. And I forgot that my children paid a price too in some ways. You could ask them, John. They, to them, a big deal was to go to McDonald's and get a hamburger. The idea of going to Disneyland, we didn't have money to take our children on expensive things like that. We had enough money to take them to a very inexpensive hotel and get a roll away bad and bring it in. And for a long time Anna, our smallest, would sleep inside of the chest of drawers that you have. We would put a little blanket in there and our baby would sleep in there because we could not afford a room big enough for our children. We lived in a home with two bedrooms and four kids. And we didn't even know that we were living in a way that other people didn't live. We just learned very early that if you keep the Lord first and you and you invest in his kingdom, he'll take care of you and he teaches you lessons. And Marie will tell you, I'm speaking for her right now. I know what you're thinking. Those were good days. Those were good days because we didn't have a whole lot. And I remember buying a five-dollar couch for my friend's mother or something. Ten dollars. Was it ten dollars? Okay, sorry. I'm sorry. But it was more expensive than that. But we had what we needed, John. We had what we needed. I didn't consider as poor ever. We didn't have much, but we had each other and our children. And I think I'm thankful for those days. I am. I'm thankful. I'm thankful with what God gave us and during that time. And it just taught me a lot of lessons of thankfulness. And there are so many people that have nothing. And we had more than that. That's right. We felt rich. We felt rich. We may have not looked it. Well, in real life, in real life, we were at the poverty level. I mean, I was making $180 a week, not even that. And of course, you can figure in inflation now and all of that. But even so, you will never be poor when you have Jesus. I have learned to be in much. And I've learned to have very little, like Paul said. But I've also learned to be content. So we discovered that, John. God comes first. And we also discovered that he provides. We were sitting at the table and in my home in Ontario. And Marie was crying. We didn't have the money to pay the bills. And she was at the table. You'll remember, baby. She was sitting at the table and she had tears in her eyes when I walked in. And I walked up to her and I said, what's wrong? I don't know what we're going to do. We don't have the money to pay our bills. For us, our name means a lot, a lot. And paying your bills is reflective on my character and my integrity, my name. And I said to her, honey, I said, all I can tell you is this, I'm looking for work. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm not just sitting around waiting for a job to jump on my lap. I'm knocking on doors. I'm leaving applications. My God shall supply. My God shall supply. She just kind of shrugs her shoulders, you know, and like, what else can we do? And this is God's truth. As I was speaking, I saw the mailman come up and I went and got the mail. Well, we're going to get some bills. Might as well get them right. We opened it up. And one of the letters, it just said, David and Marie, I opened it up and there was a check in there for $200, $200, which we did not have the money to pay our bills. I still remember opening it, looking in and it was a cashier's check. They didn't want us to know who gave it to us. I still remember looking at it and I put it in front of Marie like this and I said, my God shall supply. And that really made a difference in me. Yeah. Yeah. But that's why I said God has always provided for us because it was something like that. I mean, that came just at the right time. At that moment, we were talking about it. And we were talking about it at first. I was shaken, very shaken, but I learned to rely on the Lord and he's always been faithful. He's always been faithful. And the next week, somebody, I had an engine we were trying to repair and it had fallen off the stand and it had broken the portion of the engine that we couldn't, you couldn't weld it. It was aluminum. And so it was useless. But it had a lot of extras on it. It was a racing engine that was given to me by a friend of mine. So it had a high rise manifold. It had a four barrel carburetor that was used for racing and it had pistons and a camshaft and things that were high level and very expensive things. And a guy came and gave me $50 for an engine that did me no good. Now, if he'd have gone out and bought all of those parts individually, he would have spent quite a bit of money. But seeing that it was of no use to me anymore and seeing I wanted to be generous to the person who was purchasing it, we sold it to him for $50. And I came in with $50 and I gave it to my wife because I've always given my money to Marie. I work for her, not as her being my boss, but as when I work for this is for you. So you can eat, you can do what you need. And so I always have handed my check to her because it's us. It's not just me. And I said, baby, look at what the Lord gave to us $50. So in one week, we received $250 with the cashier's check and that $50. And again, we were able to say, my God shall supply. What a faith builder. My God shall supply. He has always supplied. He has never failed. Never. My God shall never fail. What would you guys say to maybe those who are listening right now or watching who are going through that moment of struggle and they feel that I can't tithe, which is a big mistake. But yet they're in such a dire need that maybe they have young babies or they just find them soft in that place that you guys have experienced. I think it's great you're sharing this because maybe a lot of times they don't understand that you guys have gone through very, very similar experiences. What would you say to them, pastor? I try to be careful because I don't want people to ever misinterpret what my words are intended to communicate because I do not believe that anybody should be forced to be a grudging giver or test God and see that is just presumption and that's not faith. So I can only speak from myself and from my belief in my, my wife's and I can speak for us. This is something we are familiar with together. We just made a decision. It was a faith decision. It wasn't like let's see, let's prove now. It was a faith decision. God's word says that we are to give. Then we should give. It's the only place in the Bible that God ever says test me and see. It's the only place. There's one place where he says you're not to test the Lord, of course, but this is where he says test me and see if I will not open up the windows of heaven. You know, it's that one area and so I'm not testing him. I certainly wouldn't be presumptuous to do that. So for us, it's been a matter of no, God's word says this and he has promised and we really think this way and people think I'm manipulating them. There's always somebody out there thinking that that's just the way it is. Well, he just wants money. No, I don't. I can say that for Marie and me, my God shall supply is real. It's real. And so we just made a decision that because I know this is something he says, something that is actually tangible, actually a visible action of faith. I just chose to believe God. Listen, if I really believe that he raised the dead, then why wouldn't he be able to take care of the living? Why wouldn't he? You know, and so why don't we trust him? And so I can't tell somebody, and I'm not, you know, you need to give. No, we're not in a bind financially here at the church. No, you know, my children are all out of the house and and no, I'm not worried about finances. No, I'm not. God has supplied even in the midst of the coronavirus, even in the midst when nobody was here in the church, John, you know this, even, even, even there's not anybody out there other than staff members that I, as a senior pastor, provide income for, right? You know, God provided. God provided. He has always been faithful, always. I believe that with pretty much all of my heart. You know, he hasn't put me in a place where I have to kind of recalibrate and say, oh, you're going to now take care of me. But he did that when the coronavirus hit. He did that back in March when I, when I came in, I was sitting watching the news, and, and our benevolent governor was shutting down all the churches. And I said, you know, because we can't receive an offering. I've got, at that time, I think we had 50 employees. I've got a, I've got a massive building that we pay on still, and I've got 13 acres of land property that needs to be maintained. And, and I told my son, Joseph, I said, I didn't know. I told him this. I said, I knew that I was going to one day be removed from ministry. I know that you prepare yourself for the day when someone steps in. I said, I'm, I'm prepared for the day when the Lord takes me out. I'm prepared for it. But I didn't know it was going to be like this. And I cried. I cried. I said, I can't pay my bills. John, if you know me, and you'll get to know me better over time, you'll know that I don't like to have a bill, even when you have bought me something. And I said, what do you owe me? What do I owe you? I try to get away with it. You would let me, I don't like that. I don't like that. If I owe a man, I'm going to pay the man. That's me. And, and, and that's even with friends like yourself, where I know you'd be generous and, and give it, I know you would. No, if I owe you, I'm going to pay you. That's the way it is. So I take responsibility for the lives of every one of my employees who rely on me being able to make sure that they're cared for. Now, those who don't do ministry won't understand what I'm saying right now. I know where their minds are going. It's a business mind. It's not a faith mind. But see, I don't sell a product here. I don't have some kind of reservoirs of resources where, well, yeah, we ran out of these tennis shoes, but we still have several crates of them. We'll be able, if we strategize, no, this is a week by week ministry. We rely every week, like Jesus taught us. He said, you know, that God will provide for you day by day. Well, you know, He does. He provides for us. It's a week by week for us. So every week we need to receive X amount in order that I can pay all the outstanding bills on this property. And suddenly it's dried up instantaneously. It was gone. It's nothing. There's no guarantee that people who, who call this church their home, there's no guarantee they're going to stay here. A lot of them left. I have seen thousands over the years who at one time have walked up and said, oh, I love my church pastor. I love you only to see them on a Facebook page talking about their new church. I got a letter from a guy who said to me, pastor, I just want you to know how special and important you are. This happened not that long ago, John. How special and important you are. I've been with you for so many years and you fed me and I just love you. And then three weeks, two weeks later, I look at the Facebook page and he's talking about his new pastor and his new church. I've heard that so many times over the years. I cannot rely on man. I rely on God. I rely on God. And so because of that, you know, I, though they don't care about me, I care about them. That's what I'm supposed to do. And you remember, you know, we would come here on the church grounds when there's nobody here. It's just us and a few of the staff who decided to show up that day and I think part of the reason they did is they knew I was here. And so, but remember what would happen, John, when people would pull up to bring their gift to the Lord and see us and wave at us and visit us, or we'd pray with them and minister to them. Remember that? We didn't put that in the newspaper and advertise. Look at what we're doing. We didn't say, what a great pastor and what a great church we are. We just did what we do because that's what Christians do. That's what Christians do, right? And God provided, I remember, I remember when my administrator, Dave, came and spoke to me and said, and I said, so what are the damages? You know, because I was crying and the Lord had said to me just the day before, as I was driving to the office and things were drying up, and I said to Jesus, I said, what am I going to do? And he said, I didn't raise you up to let you fall, which is something he had said to me 30 some years ago. Same thing, same voice, same word. I did not raise you up to let you fall. And I remember coming into the office and I said to my administrator, I said to Dave, what are the damages? Because I have to make some decisions about this church and staff and I was going to stop receiving salary. We were going to do all of that to take care of people. What can I do? And he said, the Lord is provided. The Lord is providing. And our offerings were there and have been there. And for several weeks when nobody was showing up, their checks were and their love was, God is good, John. God takes care of us. And there are things that we don't need that he lets us remember. And there are things that we do need to have a pair of shoes and to have a meal, all of those things. Those are needful for us, but I don't need 50 pair of shoes. And I don't need to eat at Fleming's every night, right? Maybe Sonor Town. Sonor Town once every two weeks is probably a good thing. May I ask you guys a question in regards to your practical tithing? You know, you mentioned something interesting, Pastor, when you're talking about when you guys tithe and maybe it will bring some clarity to some of the people. And I don't know if this would be a personal preference or it's a guideline throughout Christian believers regarding tithing. When a Christian is to tithe, are they to tithe before any check is cut for anything else before any other bill is paid? Is it like the first grain offering to the Lord? Or does that, is that significant? I think that when you begin to ask yourself, how much can I give? It's also a way of saying how much can I keep? And so I'm not one of those who on a personal level first, I'm not one of those who says, oh, I'll, I'll tithe only on this amount because the taxes, etc. Because you have, we'll say, we'll say you get $100 just for the number. But after taxes, you're getting 86. So you tithe on the 86. Oh, I see. See, some people do that. And then some say, no, I made 100 even if it was taken up by the government and so others may give their gift on the 100. I think that's a matter of personal preference. I know there are arguments and other theological statements that are related to that. Now you give your first verse, first verse would be the 100, not the 86, because Caesar's getting 14. I know those arguments and all of that. So that's why I lean more towards Paul says, a man should give as he purposes in his heart. And so that has kept me from being legalistic, from kind of bartering with God. Because oftentimes what you're doing is you're arguing with them to see how much more you can keep for yourself. Right. That's what it comes down to in a sense it is. And again, that's no condemnation to anybody who's living from hand to mouth. I certainly would never, I would certainly never say to that person, you need to give to God because you've got no faith in all of that. No, because it's interesting how a lot of pastors live off the faith of other people. You know, now you need to end and they themselves aren't generous. So no, I, I'm not one of those. And I think that's very wrong. I believe that the Lord says to give it as you purpose in your heart. And, and it's not of your, because some people say, well, I tithe off my time. No, no, the time already belongs to God. You know, I tithe off of my talent. I serve in the children's and no, no, no, you're supposed to serve the Lord anyway. You know, no, this is something of your substance. And so you need to make a decision based on what you with the cheerful heart and to the extent of your faith, what can you give? And you give out of a cheerful heart and with an attitude of faith, but you never give your responsibly presuming upon the Lord because I've seen plenty of TV preachers telling you to do that. These are the guys who are buying themselves very expensive airplanes or living in multi, multi-million dollar mansions telling you to live off of faith when they've been concealing from you. And that that makes God angry. And it makes me sick because it's wrong. So as a man determines, as a man purposes, as Lord has blessed, you know, you can look at 2nd Corinthians eight and nine, I think that chapters eight and nine are are related to the church and the church's practice of giving. I believe that each person should give though, not just of the talents and not just of the time. Those are things that you should be doing anyway. But I can't pay the electric electric bill on somebody's talent or time. I have to, I have to pay that bill with cash because the electric company doesn't take, you know, volunteerism as a talent check, right? Exactly. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's Talk Marriage is a ministry of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley. If you've enjoyed this video, then please like and share it. We will see you again next week on another episode of Let's Talk Marriage.