 Yes. Good to go. Hello, everyone. Good evening. Welcome to T. S. Oh, it is December seven. Let's see here. I made just a moment. This meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone. No in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. This meeting is being recorded. And I will start with a roll call just to make sure that we can all hear it be heard. Andy. I am here. Anna. Present. Dorothy. Here. Sharon. I am present. Paul. Present. And Athena. Present. All right, we are good to go. I'm just taking a look here at our. Okay. So I do see that we have. Six attendees at the moment. I do not see. Tracy as of yet, but I do see we have two. Oh, here's Tracy. Wonderful. Okay. So I do see we have two. Attendees at the moment. Jeremy Anderson and Michelle. If you would, I think we have Jeremy first. So Athena, if we could please bring in. The first commenter. Welcome Jeremy, please unmute yourself and the floor is yours for up to three minutes. Hi, thank you so much. Jeremy Anderson, 34 high point drive. Can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Last week, the Amherst transportation advisory committee met at your request to discuss traffic calming measures that could be implemented on Henry street in front of Cushman Scott Children's Center to address safety concerns of parents whose young children aged 18 months to five years old attend the school and address the more than 30 years of requests by residents of Henry street for action. For over an hour, the tack discussed how unsafe Henry street is and identified numerous traffic calming solutions that town council could implement today to protect the lives of young children and the residents of Henry street. I'm incredibly grateful for the tax recommendation for the installation of traffic awareness signs and have provided the town council's recommendations for permanent solar powered traffic awareness signs that could be purchased today and installed for only a few thousand dollars. Please follow through on this recommendation for their installation immediately to save children's lives. I am concerned, however, by the recommendation to delay other traffic calming solutions until after an engineering survey can be conducted when UMass students return for the spring semester. This committee is unlikely to have the results from that study for many months at the earliest. Please take action now and direct the Department of Public Works to install permanent speed humps before a child is killed. If you will not then allow Cushman Scott to install temporary rubberized speed humps to protect the lives of the children who attend the school until the results of the engineering study can be available. Something the school has offered to do on multiple occasions. Lastly, I would like to share a note that was missing from the TAC meeting summary. After much discussion about the dangerous conditions on Henry Street and then voting to postpone actions that could save lives, one of the TAC members asked if the town of Amherst would be liable for negligence in a wrongful death lawsuit. Without hesitation, superintendent mooring responded that yes, the town would now be liable. Recent news articles show that judges in Massachusetts award families in excess of ten million dollars for negligent wrongful deaths of children. Please take action today and save the life of a child and the families that live on Henry Street. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your comfort, Jeremy. May we have... Chal? Chal, the floor is yours. Thank you. Dear members of the TSOC, I'd like you to ask you to please use a reasonable judgment to find traffic calming solutions on Henry Street. Statistics, when used correctly, can support informed and unbiased decision-making processes. Unfortunately, the members' course is average speed used by MAST, DOT, and thus Amherst DPW are poor thresholds. For example, it fails to capture the nuance of parents collecting children at 15 miles an hour and commuters barreling down at 40 miles per hour. This would create a seemingly reasonable 20-hour hour. This would create a seemingly reasonable 27.5 miles an hour and a 25-mile per hour zone. MAST, DOT recognize that such course guidelines would sometimes be insufficient for local conditions, which is why they created the safety zones. As keepers of the public way, this town council has the ability to create a safety zone today and lower the speed limit on Henry Street to 20 miles per hour. It can authorize the installation of speed humps or humps to prevent any of the many other recommendations from the TAC to ensure the safety of vulnerable populations. I want this committee to recognize that this time, time and time again over the past 30 years, residents of Henry Street have asked for assistance and time again have been told there is nothing that can be done. Request ad soft signs at this intersection even made the Amherst bulletin in 2015 and the town denied them. Clearly, there is a problem that needs to be solved at this intersection. I would like to thank you for that. Thank you for the opportunity to be the commission to do it. Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Okay. And now welcome Dan Wood. Dan, the floor is yours. All right. Thank you. I appreciate that. I live on Henry street with my wife and daughter and our daughter also attends the Cushman Scott daycare center. So this is an issue of pretty big concern for us. And we thank everybody on the committee for their time to do this. And I just want to, you know, urge you to please take action today and to do a safety zone. Take any further action you can. As, as, as a resident, I did see that the attack made notes about three way stops, not being effective in speed control, but as somebody who turns left off of pine street onto Henry street, you know, almost on a daily basis. People flying down Henry street going north. You know, it's a tough intersection and that's, you know, as much. It affects the speeding at the daycare centers. It just does sort of like the safety on the street. And in the summer, additionally, there's, it's a blind corner because of tree growth there. So a three way stop would just be a huge benefit to. Allow everybody sort of navigate that intersection successfully, but more so, you know, safety at the daycare center. So, you know, it's a safety zone. Any sort of traffic calming that you can get done as soon as possible. We just need that. You know, yesterday I was picking my daughter up and I saw a mom with two kids and, you know, sure enough, one kid started to dart out into the street and luckily the mom was right there to grab the hand. But, you know, I've just been thinking about that lately. That's, that's an occurrence that happens multiple times a day. And it just takes somebody flying down that street and a kid to be able to do that. And that's just the outcome to happen over there. So once again, I thank you so much all for your time. And consideration and please, you know, implement all of these safety issues as soon as you can. And thank you. Thank you for spending your time with us this evening. Thanks. I hear a little voice with you. Oh, yes. The floor is yours. Okay. Thank you. If you hear another voice. That's my son, I'm going to be talking about that. I'm from Sadele, who attends, uh, Cushman Scott. Uh, my daughter will start there. She's seven months just going to be starting, uh, in the fall. So, um, you know, this is also, I live right around the corner off of East Pleasant street. And it's a very important issue to me. Um, you know, speaking even just briefly of that, uh, intersection of Plein and Henry street. I've actually just started avoiding it since the summer. In part just because making that left turn just seems almost like, I mean in the winter it's not that bad in the summer, it just seems, you know, not even worth it. But you know, as a parent, I just think it's something that hopefully, you know, being part of this community and having children and knowing people who have children should just be something that is common sense to have the safety measure that's, you know, not very complicated, seemingly complicated to implement, but it's not a very difficult argument to make and I hope that everybody can at least agree to the value of that. And if we don't do anything, we're sort of just waiting to see when something really terrible will happen. And inaction is begging for something to happen. I'm pretty near the community and I don't know of anything happening there, but inevitably the speed at which I've witnessed cars go by, I've had, you know, people honk at me as I pulled out because I haven't backed out quickly and try to get around me. And it's extremely unsafe, especially this time of year, when if anyone is picking up their children aftercare, it's very dark. So I hope we can just all agree how important it is and that if nothing is done, an accident will eventually happen to a child or to someone living in the neighborhood. So thank you. Thank you for joining us, Senator, for your comment. Is there anyone else that would like to make a comment? Please raise your hand if so. Welcome, Heather, the floor is yours. Hi, I've never spoken at a public meeting before and never with a cold as severely as I have right now for entertaining my comment. I'm a little nervous because I don't have anything prepared. I was at the TAC meeting and it was one of the first meetings that I attended. I found it sort of striking that the beginning of the meeting really had some great ideas about safety zoning and infrastructure and the need for infrastructure in that area in front of Cushman Scott. And I think it's wonderful that you're allowing people to comment today because at that meeting it really wasn't accessibility. I have a daughter who attends Cushman Scott and I have two older daughters that are in the Amherst public schools and I work for the public schools. There have been many times that I've been very concerned about my daughter's safety, just, you know, walking her to the door. And that just feels so scary as a parent. And my daughter, to say, is going to be graduating from Cushman at the end of this year and then attending kindergarten at Crocker Farm. And I'm here today, you know, not just to advocate for her but the lives of all the children that go to that school. And you know, I know that it's, when we have these public meetings, it's really, you're looking at logistics and you're having to consider things that are financial, that makes sense for the town, the community. But I think the humanity of it is really important to just recognize and just thinking about someone having to lose their son, daughter or child and in order to make something happen would just be overly tragic, you know. So I would just encourage that and echo what everybody else has said, that putting in safety zones, infrastructure and making that happen as quickly as possible would be would be the best decision. Thank you, Heather. I think we can I can speak for us all that we hope you feel better soon. And thank you for bringing an authentic voice and comment. Hope you continue to be engaged. Do we have anyone else? Any public comment for anything on the agenda at all? All right, Tracy, are you with us? Hi, yes, I'm here. All right, welcome. How are you doing? Good. I thought this was later in the agenda. Yes, so we did just made it a change. So I'm glad that you were here. We were we're actually, you know, after public comment are going to go into Cushman and fall after Cushman. Cushman and fall after that, we will go into the revised outreach and engagement proposal and then we'll follow with the carryover memo, which basically includes everything that we have talked about with the committee. So I would like to thank you for being with us and for offering to the overview of your memo. It was very helpful. Thank you for submitting it. And so and for being open to answer questions as well. So I'm happy to invite you. Go right ahead. Sure. Okay. Well, I thought I had had a little time because it was later on agenda. But no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's good. And it's great to have it right after the public comment so that there's not like the disconnects. So, you know, as you know, the I mean, I really do want to let the memo like speak for itself mainly, but I'll just do a quick recap. So the tack met last week. It was the first time that we've considered the Cushman, Scott, and Henry Street issue closely. You know, and I have heard from people like including some of the commenters. And I hadn't heard this until after the tack meeting, but it's really had to be on the town's radar for quite some time. You know, at least and counselors have been engaged in it for like at least two to three years. And so tack wasn't involved with any of that. So, you know, part of what we were doing was even just trying to get up to speed. And after that motion came from TSO, I reached out to the town, I said, What information can you send us? I did receive the traffic speed study. I that's basically all I received, you know, in addition to the memo from the counselors who are requesting the safety zone and the town manager's memo. I mean, we went, you know, some of our members went on on time and looked at the site. I also looked into the crash data and the traffic volume. And, you know, a lot of the memo also just has sort of general things about traffic calling recommendations and best practices, you know, from engineering. The reality is that it's just a really short timeframe for tack to respond. And also we had been told that there would be a professional engineering study. And so, you know, we were really having our discussion thinking that that study is going to happen. And so, you know, what might be able to be implemented in the meantime. And so we focused our discussion on temporary type measures. But the reality was that as, you know, as we were meeting and as I reflected the memo, you know, that the DPW superintendent is our staff liaison to tack. And as a professional engineer, and he really cautioned against having most of the temporary measures until after a study is done. And we didn't really feel, and particularly because the study is supposed to be done by the spring, we didn't really feel like we could override that. And so our recommendations were more to, you know, to wait before and to wait until the study was completed. You know, I also just don't even know realistically about, you know, what measures can be installed, like if you were going to do any kind of physical measures, what measures can actually be installed during the winter months, you know, paving doesn't typically happen in the winter. And there's a reason for that. So we did support having the speed feedback signs, you know, building on what they are now, including in the northbound direction, which there's nothing there. And also, it is really helpful when I look at the research, it's really helpful when you have not only the speed, but then also what the speed limit is. So you get that feedback because I notice, for example, if on the current sign, which is actually just past the school, you know, and you may want to have it before the school, but I notice on the current sign, it will, if you go over the speed limit, which is 25 miles an hour, it will tell you what your current speed is. But it won't, you don't necessarily realize unless you've noticed that speed sign, you know, that you're above the speed limit, there's, you know, some of the signs are much more like they flash red, and they say slow down, and they are frowny faces or whatever. I mean, to give you that feedback right away, like you are doing it wrong. And so, I mean, the, you know, those can be helpful. And also just to do, you know, traffic enforcement, if the town has the resources to do that. And, you know, also just at Cushman Scott to look at ways, you know, where families don't need to cross the street and things like that. I mean, we definitely do support, TAC definitely does support having traffic calming measures in that area, as we wrote in the memo. But, but we just didn't make too many, you know, specific recommendations. And again, part of it is just, again, that it was just new to us. And, you know, we basically had just a few days to respond. So that's what we put together. But I'm happy to answer questions. Thank you. And could I just ask, before we open up to questions, Paul, is there anything that you would like to add at this point? Or? No, I think I just compliment TAC for doing such a thorough and Tracy for doing such a thorough memo. Thank her for that. Yes. Thank you, Tracy. Okay, Dorothy. So my first question is about the sign, the speed sign. We have a new sign on Amity, which I'm finding extremely useful, which tells me what I'm going and tells me what I should be going. And I live near top of the hill. It's just kind of a normal thing to kind of pick up your speed as you go down. And that sign is really helpful to me. And I use it all the time to gauge my speed. So you're saying that the speed sign in front of the daycare only tells you how fast you're going, but does not tell you how fast you should be going. And I'm suggesting that that sign be changed for one like on Amity, because most drivers really don't want to be doing bad things. They're just not paying attention. And the area, the Henry Street area is kind of like people think, Oh, I'm leaving the crowded part of town. And I feel like I'm getting into the country. And their brain kind of gets them to think of speeding up a little bit. So I'm wondering, can we change that sign to one that include like to one on Amity, which tells you you're going 43 and you should be going 35. That's my question. So I don't know, am I allowed to speak? I know that. So Dorothy, just to tell you how it works, and I've driven back and forth a number of times, but if you are going under the speed limit, it says thank you for driving safely. And it is only if you're going over the speed limit, then it tells you what your speed is. Does it also tell you what speed you should be going? It doesn't say that explicitly. Well, because that that is what is useful, because we don't pay attention to what's the speed limit is on the street. We have to be told you're going 43 and you should be going 35. You know, because most people are not intentionally speeding. Thank you, Dorothy, Anna. I think one of the things, yeah, Tracy, thank you. I was at the TAC meeting and, you know, really what what was interesting to me was that ultimately. Ultimately, the engineering study is due to be completed, I believe, within the month or so. I think it was four weeks ish from that that data, that meeting. And then by that point, after that point, the engineers will come back with recommendations that they would present to Council TSO. I'm not super clear on which one. And at that point, we could vote to accept those recommendations. And my understanding from the superintendent of Public Works is that those recommendations could be implemented within four months or four to six months of the recommendations being made. So I think in my mind, I'd like to follow through with what TAC recommends, because I think that if we pitch, if we said right now we want to put in temporary speed bumps, I think that we'd run into the same question of, well, you need to study, you need to the engineers to be able to tell you where to specifically to put those, right? Like I think that as soon as we start suggesting some of the elements that TAC discussed, we're going to run into the issue of none of us are, as far as I know, on TSO, our professional engineers that can say where those should go. So so I think that we kind of get into this loop. I just want to name that for me, the challenge and the frustrating part of this process and something, Paul, I'd love to get from you in in writing is the difference or the the actual steps for the safety zones process because there seems I've gotten three different answers on what the next steps are. And so I recognize that at this point, we're not necessarily talking about this, about Cushman Scott and Henry Street being part of the safety zone process because we want to move this faster. And there also is a holdover school zone sign there or speed limit low speed limit sign there. That's that's pretty dang close to what a safety zone would be. So I think that for this, I'm comfortable with with the I guess, comfortable is not the right word. I've accepted that the fastest and most logical step forward is to go with the engineering study and add a speed sign in as well as if possible, to do traffic enforcement, basically running through what what TAC recommended. I do agree with that. I agree with Dorothy, if we can have a sign that's a bit more jarring, it might be helpful. It seems like I don't know how much wiggle room there is with those types of signs. I know there's one there now, but if we can get one, you know, the ones that flat, there is one coming down Amherst Road into Pelham that flashes red and blue lights at you when you're speeding. And that terrifies the bejesus out of me. So not that I'm ever intentionally speeding as well, Dorothy, but downhills, you know, if we could get something a bit more jarring, maybe that would be helpful. But ultimately, Paul, I think one of the things that I'll say as a counselor, I'm finding myself really needing is a very clearly articulated process that you and the superintendent of public works agree on as being the safety zone process, because I this has been really confusing and frustrating. So which is not anyone's fault. I just I think we want to get clarity on that process so we can make sure we're ready to go next time a safety zone is requested. I think that's all for now. But again, thank you to Tracy and Tak. I know that that was a short notice meeting and a long meeting. And this is always this is hard, right? Like this is the part of our job that's hard because there's there's such a human element to every part of our work. And the human element becomes even more clear when it's when it's issues like this. So I want to appreciate everyone's engagement, including the folks who are watching as well. Thank you, Shalini. Yeah, thank you for explicitly stating how hard this is, especially since there are children involved and and they're not having been a process because we have been hearing about speed, safety concerns in other parts of towns. So yes, to everything you said and also, again, acknowledging Tracy and Tak for fitting in a meeting that was not meant to be. So thank you for your work. In terms of the recommendations, could we and just the temporary ones, could we have? And that was one of the recommendations with the police oversight till we do have the engineering study and something more permanent. I think, you know, just given the safety concerns of children, I think that would might be how possible is it to get additional police oversight? And just during the time and kids are. So that was a question, I guess. So that's certainly possible. I talked with the chief and if they if they're available, it's, you know, they can't guarantee it'll be every day. But if they're not engaged in a call for a major emergency service, they can certainly have someone up there. You know, there are other requests throughout the town, but this would be a high priority as you as the council's noticing that. OK, thank you. And what is the cost of I did hear and I say that even where to put the speedbombs is that that didn't cross my mind because I was like, why can't we just have speedbombs or there even the temporary speedbombs? I don't know if that Tracy is an option that we could put in. I have the response to that because I believe Guilford has had answered this question that the temporary speedbombs typically are taken up in the winter because they damage the plows. And so they wouldn't be something that he'd recommend putting in now. And anyways, Tracy, is that your recollection as well? Yeah, I mean, I it sounds like they're pretty problematic in addition, what what Guilford said is that the cost is close to if you include in maintenance, it's close to having like the actual paved ones. Oh, OK. So and it sounds like two emergency services are concerned about them as well. So it doesn't it didn't seem like a very feasible option. I have a question as well. And excuse me if this has been brought up, but has like is is a crossover possible? I also wanted to let me just back up and thank you, Tracy, for the work that you put into this. I also had just a couple of other questions that were brought up in the memo or that came to mind rather than the memo. And one is talking about a process to how how do we how do we come to decide where these where the speed limits would be and where the where the signs would go. And so assuming this is this is Cushman, I know there are some very similar complaints about where High Street turns into Chestnut, Middle School, High School, you have Wildwood coming there. And then so I'm assuming I maybe I shouldn't assume, but then there's Fort River, perhaps, like Harker Farm. So is there is there already some sort of process because I would imagine, you know, we have you're talking about, we're talking about a sign on Amity and then Cushman. And then I would imagine others would follow. So is there has this been considered already in the budget or has it? And so I appreciate you bringing up the need for like a process or how that works or asking that question. And then I guess the the other one that I had was in terms of is there a possibility for a crosswalk to be there? Anika, I think that the part the part about the signs. First off, I think part of the reason why this is the reason why there is currently a sign, a 25 mile an hour sign outside of Cushman is that it used to be a town school. It was before it was a private private daycare and town schools like Wildwood, Fort River, et cetera, are posted right by law because they're town schools. But I think that that's that sign stayed and it's kind of just been in existence there. But the process that you're talking about, it sounds like is the the safe safety zone process rate of establishing where and how those signs would go in. How are the flashing signs that tell you those signs because like there is a stop sign? You know, for instance, I'm saying for Cheson, there is a stop sign and then you can get into that. Does that really work or people tend to escalate? You know, the speed, I'm saying like, so to be clear, I'm saying specifically those flashes. Thank you. I my understanding and Paul, I'll look to you, but my understanding is that those are complaint driven, predominately, and then police will verify that it's an area of high speeding. And then my other understanding is they work for awhile until people get used to them. Mm hmm. Paul, I don't know if you have anything. So so the driver feedback signs and Tracy has done a lot of research on this as well, so if you may want to chime in, are informational. They're not regulatory as opposed to a speed sign that says you must travel 25 miles an hour and if you if you don't, you get a ticket. The those are designed for driver feedback. So people change their behavior and they're and they're pretty effective typically as Dorothy says, depending on their location and if people start to pay attention to them. And but you have to it's a usually you have to combine a number of strategies and they do sort of, you know, people get get, you know, get used to things and they start stop seeing them. You know, we put up a, you know, children, you know, drive slowly, children, people just sort of start to ignore those things. So it's it's an ongoing strategy of of introducing traffic calming measures, I think. OK, so just last so aside from like, what can we do and getting that into the discussion like what can we do to provide a sense of security? My last question in the in regards to the demo was parts of Henry Street that are near the school that apparently are listed as being pedestrian friendly and for pedestrian friendly and friendly for inexperienced bikers, but yet there isn't a sidewalk. So I was just curious as to how does that get established? And is there a way to kind of take take a section that does not have a sidewalk off the pedestrian friendly list? OK, well, I can speak to that. So I said that they're on the network and that doesn't actually mean that there are facilities there. But it means that they have been identified as important routes for bikes or pets. And sometimes there's like higher, you know, there's cyclists who are more comfortable being in a road and cyclists who want to have like lower speed traffic and things. But the there is the Amherst bicycle and pedestrian network plan. And that what that identifies is that identifies the primary corridors, you know, where there are bicyclists and where there are pedestrians, whether or not there are facilities there and where there is that need. So that's to identify where there should be priorities for future improvements. So that is one of the reasons that we said that that section of Henry Street. You know, should have more traffic calming because it is listed as part of the priority network for bicyclists and pedestrians and it is near the Village Center. OK, thank you for that. And I mean, in terms of crosswalks and even the speed signs, like such as for safety zones, I mean, my my concern is always about does you can't just put down a speed sign and expect the speed of peoples to change. Like a lot of it is based on the road design. So you really need to change like what's happening with the road. And with crosswalks, for example, I mean, some people say, oh, let's just put in a crossbook. But you really need to be cautious about it because if you put in a crosswalk in a place where you haven't done anything to ensure that vehicles will stop at the crosswalk, then you're actually creating hazards. So. So you really, I mean, again, so I mean, I like the idea personally, I like the idea of having a crosswalk, but it needs to be done in a really, you know, reflective way where we know that it's safe. One thing is if there is a crosswalk, right, it's it's required under state law that vehicles yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk. And so you'll see downtown and you'll see in other parts of town, you know, where they'll be even, you know, stands in the middle of the crosswalk, saying vehicles are supposed to yield. And in fact, the ones that you must say vehicles are supposed to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk. But I mean, even that sign alone, unless you have other types of measures, I just don't think it's that safe. And particularly we're talking about a vulnerable population. Yeah. And I'll just mention, too, like with the safety zone. So I did reach out to the, you know, my office that I work at at UMass, the UMass Transportation Center. We run a listserv of DPWs around the state. And it's, you know, it also includes consultants and planners and things. And I did put out a question there about which communities have implemented safety zone or which communities have created safety zones under mass general law and and how that's gone. I didn't get back that many responses. But a few of the communities I heard back from, they they said that they had they had they had voted to have a safety zone, which you can do under mass general law, but they hadn't actually put up any signage yet to show that it was a safety zone or that it was 20 miles an hour because I can be more involved in one town. So they actually decided not to go that route of the safety zone, but instead to make sure that they made measures along their street that would calm the traffic and just to go that route instead of having a safety zone. One thing with the school zone signs is, first of all, under mass general law, a school zone, a proper school zone. The speed limit in a school zone is 20 miles an hour when school is in session. And Matthew T. works with schools and they have the Safe Reach to School program. And they those signs do have flashing like you'll see them at Crocker and near Fort River and so on. They aren't as they aren't they don't provide as much feedback as say the speed feedback signs, but they are there to alert people that this is an area where you have students. And now to that, there's last year it changed. So the Safe Reach to School program and the school zones used to just be for K to eighth grade, and now it's Oshel High School. So there are like places along Triangle and things where we could also create school zones there. And I came up at a recent TAC meeting and Guilford said that he would look into it. So. Thank you. Thank you. Guarancy. So I'm looking over this document from TAC. There's a statement that says Henry Street is on a bus route. A speed table would be likely to be more appropriate than a speed hump. And I realized I did not know what a speed table was. And then a little later, it says the study made design and implementation recommendations for various traffic calming measures, including curb extensions, islands, speed tables, which I hope you can explain to me in a minute, and raised crosswalks. So it's sounding possibly as if a speed table, whatever it is and a raised crosswalk might come out of here. But I also want to ask about the flashing boy. When I see that kind of like a little walking boy cut out with flashing lights, I pay attention and I think that's very effective. So I'm just putting these out, really wanting to get answers here. Yeah, so I mean, I'll say that some people refer to the speed tables and you could have a raised crosswalk in the same place. Like they're similar to the ones that are along Cottage Street at Amherst College. So speed tables are just more gradual like you have, you know, you started with speed humps, which are the kind of things you used to have in like parking lots a lot that are very like abrupt speed bumps. And then your speed humps are a little less and speed tables are just flatter. You know, so they're easier to navigate for larger vehicles and things like that. They're less jarring. So you're saying this is something we could sometimes call them humps and some call them bumps. And you're saying there's actually a meaning between hump or bump. One is one is taller than the other. Well, like more abrupt, right? It's just like the different dimensions of them. I mean, and people don't really use speed bumps. Like I think about speed bumps is sometimes they'd be in like a parking lot or something, you know, to like really calm, but, but, you know, if you go for them, they're very abrupt, right? So in Hadley, those are street speed humps. The new ones along the river. Those are speed humps, yes. Yeah. And then table is flatter. It's flatter and longer and longer. So it's less jarring, but it can also it still has an impact. And you can match like you can have a speed table and then you can you can have a raised crosswalk, you know, on the top. And that's something that the council has approved, for example, on near Kendrick Park, right on North Pleasant Street next to Kendrick Park, that intersection with Fearing is supposed to include a raised crosswalk. So we don't know what the engineering study is going to say, but it's possible that we could get a raised crosswalk and a speed table. I would love to add a little flashing light. Because I mean, different communities do different things. Like I know in Hadley, there's also some where the stop sign itself is all lit up. Like those aren't standard. And, you know, I would defer to the professional engineers about having those alternative signs. OK, thank you. Thank you, Dorothy. And shall your hand is up? Did Paul, did you want to say something? Because you OK, I was just going to ask, like, it seems like we're all in agreement in terms of the short term steps we want to see happen is a more effective speed signs, police oversight. And then in the long and then also longer term, we want the engineering study that's going to happen asking for a safety zones process. And yeah. So what action do we need to take today to make this happen? I think you would take a motion to recommend to the council that these things, just what you said. And I think the other thing that Anna asked is for a sort of a detailed step by step guide for safety zones. So the council is more clear on what what what actions it should be taking in the future. So I was going to do. Actually, I threw no two motions. I'm not going to make it yet because I just want to check in before I make this. One of the things that I also would like is to give a deadline for an update regarding the engineering study and if that's OK. And I was I believe that February 1st would be a reasonable amount of time given what we were told by Guilford about the completion date. But if I if I frame it as an update, if it's not done, it's not done. But ideally, that would be so my first motion is going to be I move to recommend the TSO. Recommend the town council. That's too many recommends. Hang on. I'm recommending that TSO. I'm moving for TSO to recommend there. OK, I move for TSO to recommend to the town council the following traffic calming measure along Henry Street and not the address perfectly illuminated speed signs in each direction of traffic. I also move that the town manager report back to the TSO committee by February 1st, 2024 regarding traffic calming recommendations from the professional engineering study. That was messy. Sorry, I think that a two in one would do that way. You have to do they need to be two separate motions. It was a two in one, because I think it's all part of the part of what we're asking for with this thing, right? I'm going to make a second motion after this regarding safety zones. I wanted to split them up in friend. Should I second? But I wanted a friend. I mean, can we before we formally do it? Can we add the police oversight? Oh, I'm sorry. Let me let me start over. Hang on. Yeah. To make sure it's safe. Increase. OK. All right. I think I got it this time. Dorothy, did you want to comment before I make this motion? Is there something I'm missing from it? I do. The last paragraph on page six. I want to know how that relates to what you're saying. And it talks about the Amherst Select Board moving forward on a Complete Streets policy, but it got stuck because it needed to have to develop criteria and they didn't complete it. And it's sounding to me like that last paragraph of following through on the Complete Streets plan. Sounds like something that we need to do. What you're saying is not that that full. You're just talking about this particular place or you know the paragraph I'm talking about. I do. Yeah, I've got it pulled up. I am just talking about this specific place. And I think that so that's my first motion. The second motion is would be about the safety zone policy. I am not currently prepared to make a motion addressing the Complete Streets policy. I need to look more into it. Honestly, it's a great I've read the policy, but I don't know. I'm not prepared to make a motion on it at this meeting. OK, thank you. That's I just wanted to know. OK, sure, sure, sure. Thank you for mentioning that. OK, I'm going to try this again. So scratch the initial one. I move that the TSO recommend to the town council the following the following traffic calming measures on Henry Street and illuminated speed sign in each direction of traffic, as well as increased traffic detail from the Amherst Police Department and a report back from the town manager by February 1st, 2024, regarding recommendations for traffic calming measures from the professional engineering study. Someone second second. Thank you. OK, Anika, did you second it? I did. OK. So we will Dorothy, your hand is still up. I have this isn't when she said in illuminated traffic sign, the report makes a difference between dynamic SFS's, which list what you're doing and what you should be doing. And you just said illuminated traffic sign. I'm wondering, do you mean to say one that includes not just what speed you're going at, but what speed the place is zoned for? Since the since it's such a short stretch and there is a speed limit sign, I had not necessarily specified that. I think that if you wanted to make a friendly amendment to the motion by specifying, adding in the words, where was it? Sorry, hang on. Dynamic SFS's. OK, so if you wanted to make a friendly amendment to the motion by adding a dynamic speed feedback sign instead of speed feedback sign, that's fine. Is that I would like to do that if again. The dance is beyond me. All right, so Dorothy is is asking for a friendly amendment, striking the words illuminated speed sign and replacing them with dynamic speed feedback sign. I'm OK with that. Shall me as my second, are you OK with that? Yeah, I think Anika seconded. So sorry, it was me, then I would say yes. Anika, are you also OK with that? Yes, as well. And who Athena wrote down? OK. All right, thank you, Dorothy, for that. OK, I think we're ready for the vote then, Anika. Can I just mention a member of the tack has their hand up? I'm not sure if you want to take that now or after the vote. Thank you. I think we should. Let's take it now. Let's take it now. We bring in. Are you doing another public comment period, Anika? I don't believe it's a public comment. I think it was because they're a member of the committee. If I need to do another public comment, do I need to announce it? OK, all right. So we're going to pause for one moment and we are going to enter another public comment session in regards to the Henry Street Cushman School. So, Kim, welcome. The floor is yours. Hi, you can hear me. Yes. OK, great. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that you understood that if if you're requesting that and we mentioned this in our memo, if you're requesting that the traffic study be done by February, UMass is we we recommended extending that until March because UMass is not in session from like, you know, I'm about to get last day of classes tomorrow, I'm a professor there and everyone will be gone. I saw there was a lot of traffic actually leaving tonight. So I think it's really important that you wait until UMass comes back because the traffic really the traffic's patterns really change. So that that's all I have to say. And it was that's what we said in our memo as well. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Kim. That's a great point. May I just ask a point? I think just for clarification, I think Anna asked for a report back by February one, not that the necessarily that the engineering city would be done. She just wants to make sure there's an update back to the TSO committee by February 1st. Yeah. And prior to February 1st, I mean, we'll still be establishing council committees. And so I think that February 1st felt like a reasonable. But Kim, it's a good note and we should make sure that that is passed along to the DPW folks who are doing it as well. Andy. Yeah, I just wanted to ask either of our TSO representatives who are present, whether the traffic engineering study is a speed study, whether it depends upon the volume of traffic in order for the professional engineer to be able to make the recommendations we're talking about. I had a similar question, Andy. I don't know if I don't know. Is here a question? I mean, I think it's I don't I haven't seen what's being proposed for the professional engineering study. I think that if that's something of interest that, you know, the town manager could advise on that as well, you know, before somebody is hired, I mean, typically I think the speed studies are looking at the speeds and volume, you know, just as a police study did, it was just less thorough. And it could also include, you know, explicitly asking for the consultant to advise on traffic calming measures that are suitable and how those should be implemented. But again, that's something that TAC has not been involved with at all in terms of putting together the contract with the consulting firm. My understanding is that that second part is absolutely in there. I don't know about specifics other than that, but that they are being asked to recommend traffic calming measures. Paul, I don't do you have any other information on that? No, but I mean, that would be the value of the study would be what would do what what's the recommendation to the town. Kim has a hand up. Okay, we're going to go to Kim. One last time and we're going to move on to the vote. Kim, floor is yours again. Sorry, okay, great. Just in the past, I mean, when we've done these types of studies, at least on the South Common, we ended up having to postpone them because the studies were going to be done during COVID, after COVID happened. And so it does seem at least in my experience with the ones that we have talked extensively with Guilford about it, you know, the volume and of traffic and the traffic patterns that happen, right, are seem to be important in their recommendations. Thank you. I think it would be important to get the most accurate representation of what average traffic is in the area. Okay, so was there anything else before? Okay, I'm going to go ahead and call the vote. So Andy. Yes. Shalini. Yes. Dorothy. Yes. Anna. Aye. And I have an aye, so that is unanimous. Anika, Kim has a hand up again. Kim is on. I didn't mean again in a bad way. I just think her hand is up. I think that was the George's second attempt. So we are going to be done with a public comment for now to move on. Was there so any other points of discussion for this topic? Anything else? Okay. Just one quick question. So when we go into the carryover memo, does any of this need to be in that, especially with respect to processes and speed safety issues in other parts of town, the process for that? I mean, what I could see, I mean, other members should chime in, but maybe the complete streets policy could perhaps be something for the carryover. And this is, and I think that this would also have to do with safety zones as well. So if I'm not mistaken, I think we have a good amount of it. It is already in the carryover memo. Anna. Yes. So I think there's now two, if not three specific items, the Henry Street one, because we're not necessarily going with the safety zone official process would be one carryover, because we asked Paul for a report back. So that's one thing. And then the safety zones process would be the second. And then if you wanted to do complete streets, that would be a third. But I don't know what we're doing with complete streets. I think we'd want to flush that out a bit. OK. All right. Well, Tracy, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate you as always. And thank you for your consideration in these motions. Appreciate all the work that you've done recently and have done. So have a wonderful rest of the evening. You're welcome to stay with us. But I would imagine you might not. OK. Let me see here. OK. So now we are going to let me just do a quick time chat. OK, Shalene. Shalene, would you like to walk us through or just give an overview? Rather, I'm going to assume everyone has taken the time to read through the revised outreach and engagement proposal. Is there anyone who has not? OK. So I think that we'll be good with an overview. OK. Yes, thank you so much. And how much time do you want to allocate to this? Well, let's see here. I would say 20, 25 minutes. Great. Thank you. Or less. OK. So I just want to say that I thank Athena, first of all, for working with me on this and re-orienting what this guide could be. And I want to thank all of you for your feedback, which you all have been giving all along, like what is this, how is this, and all that. So the way we're now presenting this is a legislative process guide. And so it does not have to go to GOL and all because it's not a bylaw or a policy, but it's meant to be a guide that essentially can be for counselors who want to sponsor new bylaws. It can be. And is it OK if I share my screen? Sure. Maybe that's helpful, then we all can look at the share screen. OK. OK, so everyone can see this. So basically, it's meant to be a guide for sponsors what to include in a memo when they're proposing the bylaws. It's got a checklist for council to have a more robust conversation around before sending it off to the town staff or a committee or a town committee. And finally, it includes checklists for council committees. And once it comes there, how a clearer process to work with other town committees like ECAC or TAC or CSSJC. And then secondly, given the limited resources we all have, how can we use the existing channels and tools to be able to engage the community and stakeholders? So one of the things that I realized, which I think many of us counselors did not know, and hence this guide, is that according to Section 2.10 in the Amherst Charter and Rule 8 in the Amherst Town Council rules a procedure, when a sponsor is proposing a measure, it needs to be in a format in which they want it adopted. So that's where people like Andy and I were getting stuck. Like, how can we have a bylaw before we've done the community engagement or spoken to stakeholders or gotten. And I'm just taking the waste hauler bylaw, for example. And we haven't yet gotten the RFI. So how can we draw out a bylaw? But it is required. And so having this sort of a guide would be helpful for other counselors, and especially if it's introduced in the orientation of the new council, that here is the checklist for any sponsor who wants to initiate new measures or amendments to existing bylaws. And so that was one main problem that this guide is solving. The second one is, like I mentioned, given our overwhelm of a town staff and the council, how can the council, and the 13 of us coming with different processes, different priorities, so how can we have a more robust conversation? It's not about trying to reach a consensus, but really providing some questions to have a deeper conversation, to engage the town staff in a way that they feel comfortable answering, asking them specific questions. And then finally, like I said, in the council. So I'm just going to go through some of the questions. And what might be helpful is if you all... Well, I'll just pause here first. So if there's any questions regarding the purpose and what the problem is, this bylaw is solving. Yeah, Anna? So it's not a question. Shalini, I feel like we've got this. I mean, like I think you've talked about this a while. Can you specify what has changed from the earlier, like have questions changed? Or, because I was looking at it and trying to compare, and I feel like we've watched, not that I don't want to hear it again, but I think we have questions and stuff. And so I'm just curious what the shifts... I mean, I think the biggest shift was... And what we talked about at the last meeting was how it was implemented and adopted. And I appreciate how you've crafted that in the memo. And so getting... I think that was the main pivot. Sure, yeah, the main pivot was in what is it? Is it a bylaw? Is it a process? Where does it go? And so now it's a guide, it's a legislative process guide. And secondly, it's meant to be a living document. So as you all use it, hopefully, there may be other questions that you want to add. So that was the other element of it. Thirdly, I did reach out to CSSJC chair and chairs, pastures of ECAC, TAC, and also disability advisory committee to end some community partners to get some feedback. So just so you know, I did try to... And that's why, like, what's in the packet, there are a few more changes, which I just put in today evening. So I'll just kind of go through. But mostly they're the same. There's not a bigger change, but I'll show you there's one bigger change. But in terms of the question then for the sponsors, I didn't know, I think we went through this last time. So I don't know, but this is a checklist in terms of the questions for sponsors. And I think this is really helpful because of the specific questions. Those have changed a little bit, I think, since we last saw it, in terms of like what should be in the memo when a sponsor, like, so for example, if the waste hauler bylaw, we're presenting that what needs to accompany that. And so it's, of course, the bylaw in the way you want it adopted, that now we all know, needs to be part of the sponsor's memo. But also, I think the other thing is the perception that people and sometimes advocates or public may have, like, oh, if there's a bylaw being proposed, it means that it's a done deal. And that's, again, also not true. So again, this document is meant to make it clear that while it does require the presentation of a bylaw in its format, it is also putting forward this process or checklist for the town council and for the committees that what sort of engagement you're gonna involve to shape this bylaw to make it into its final shape. So in terms of questions, I don't know if you all had any additional, and it's a live document. So you all can always edit and change. We don't have to spend too much time on it. But if there's any question that you think would be really helpful as a sponsor or as a committee member when you receive a sponsor's memo. So some of the things that I've added, for example, were what are the best practices and policies pertaining to the measure and comparable towns? So that's kind of what we did for the Waste Hauler bylaw in working with Susan Waite. We include, I created that table of these are the different comparable towns that are doing these different aspects of the bylaw. And here are some options. And here is what I'm suggesting. But of course it's gonna change based on the feedback you get. But this is a recommendation coming from what we have seen in other towns. So like having, and again, every bylaw is gonna be different and it will require more or less. But that's why this is giving as many questions as I could think of that might be helpful. Like what sort of research and past consultants reports exist because sometimes we forget that that study was already done. And just even talking to the town staff, like has this been studied before what are some consultant reports who are not duplicating effort? Maybe the sponsors can identify which committees and boards we might need. And so these are some of the questions. So do you all have any questions or comments about this? Because the real juicy part it comes into the town council because I did add one thing there. Yeah, Dorothy. I see this is really useful to particularly new members of the council who might be thinking of coming up with some kind of change or rule or measure. I guess I don't like to see it as saying absolutely every measure has to follow these things. I don't like to see it as prescriptive but I think it's wonderful work in describing the things that one would consider if one is planning to come forth with some kind of bylaw. Thank you. And that's kind of where we pivoted and said that it's a guide. So guide just means and it's a living document. So you can go ahead and add and change it. So yeah, this is just that. Okay, now the checklist for the town council just in terms of like once it comes it's presented to the council so far we've been sort of having a brief conversation but I would think that most of the things that have come forward have been sent to a committee. I don't think it's ever been said that, oh, we at this point in time we are not considering this as a high priority and we're not gonna do it. And so even though that sounds awful but I think and hopefully the new council in the orientation or later we'll have a process for prioritization of their trading council is coming if everyone comes in with their what they're interested in and priorities which is great but then for trading counselors to work together in figuring out what should be the priorities given our town values the town council's priorities given the town staff time resources at hand. So I added some questions but then I converted it into a rubric of sorts. And again, the rubric is not meant to be like if you're getting all highs you have to but it's kind of gives you like a color coding to kind of see if you take the different criteria. So the process suggested is that these are some questions for the council to first have a conversation around like is this measure a priority for the town council that has been established in the town manager goals and does the measure protect or either expand the rights of marginalized populations? Are there any negative impacts on marginalized populations or goals? So they're like all these bunch of questions there just to kind of go through get a sense of what this new measure is gonna do. And then once you've had that discussion kind of have a rubric where you could kind of put down and I started marking it for the waste hauler just as an example for waste hauler by law for example does it promote the town council priorities of social justice environment and the economy? So for social justice I put it as medium and economy as put it as medium but the environment is high, right? And then is it critical to protect the health safety of residents quality of life and economy? I think that's not really relevant. So cost to study the issue by the town staff I put it as a green, green meaning that it's not because we got a grant to work with Susan Wade on it. So to study the issue, but again the cost I didn't include the town staff time. So maybe we need to split it up more in terms of cost of consultant and I don't know I'm open to feedback Paul if you have any feedback on how to discuss the staff time and cost to study the issue by town staff or if anyone else has any feedback on that. The other questions are really the cost to hire consultants in this case Susan Wade was to a grant so I put it as a green to implement it I put it as a question mark because it depends on what direction we take if we end up billing and doing all of that ourselves it would actually move to a red because we will have to hire a new staff and whatnot so it becomes red, but if you're not hiring then it actually could move to a green. So I just left it as a question mark that has to be answered cost to the residents the hope in the bylaw is that it's gonna be green but it could be a question mark. I mean, but the way it's intended is that by doing town contracted system it's gonna bring down the cost of the residents so it's really a green in that sense the intention is green, other benefits to the community because it's bringing down the cost it's improving zero waste and all of that to the environment, to our economy, to town finances it's kind of left as in the middle right now. But this kind of at least gives us a sense like if something is a high priority or a low priority but based on this rubric then the council can decide given the importance of this measure the resources how soon does this town need to get to this and when should the measure be sent to committees, town staff, or town member and what are the expectations and timeline for the report back? So that would be the ending of this checklist. So any questions, comments here? Paul, did you have anything? Todd, before I just have a comment. Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that you are taking into account the impact on town staff and that might vary over time because sometimes, you know, even this week I talked to a town staff person about helping on something and they just said cannot possibly initiate now. So it might, but in the summer, it might be yes, got plenty of time to do it. So there could be variable consulting costs is clearly something that would want to be qualified because if that's a precursor to doing something and that's something, you know, we certainly want to factor in and where those funds would come from. Thank you. Yeah, so that, you know, that would come here. What resources are needed included existing staff to work on this? What is it going to include in this? What is the timeline for staff to work on this given their current priorities? So this is where, you know, we would get the feedback from Paul that right now we can't, but in six months we could. So I think having, giving those very specific questions to town staff will allow them to also provide specific response as opposed to can the town staff do this? And they'll be, yeah, we can do it. You know, Andy. Okay, yeah. Now I want to thank Shalini for putting this together and giving so much thought to it. I, as you know, I've been at council meetings presenting the position that we should not automatically refer something without giving some thought to it. And, but this is a way of really structuring what that is and making sure that we have the opportunity to do what we want to do. I think that we had a lot of proposals before us this year that we were all rushing through at the same time. And we've gotten an awful lot of those proposals that are ending up in carryover memos and have not been enacted. And I wonder if we would have had a higher percentage of enacted if we had a policy like this at the beginning. And when we first made the decision of what we'll move for active consideration of the present. And I think that's what it's about. It doesn't mean that if we say this isn't the time to refer it, it doesn't mean we'll never refer it but that we do need to think about it and think about the resources, both for staff and for council. And this is a structure that encourages us and assists us to do that. But thank you. Thank you, Andy, for that. Actually, I just, as you were speaking, I just thought of this other thing that the sponsors memo has so much going into it. And then if it comes to the town council and they go through this process and decide that, oh, it's not a priority, then a lot of the sponsors time has gone into it. So I wonder if maybe the process is more that the sponsor does not include the by-law written up and all of that, but has like a proposal that's presented to the council in terms of what is the problem it's solving, why this is important, who's initiated because sometimes the town staff initiates and like comes to CRC, hey, we would love to see the nuisance by-law strengthened a little bit more. Like we even had the police chief saying, hey, if you put that in, that would be amazing. So like the sponsor memo could include where is this coming from? Maybe it's coming from town staff or planning board or advocacy groups in town. Like the waste hall, I had a lot of support from the community and the advocacy advocate group. So putting some information in the memo that's presented to the council and then once council has this robust conversation and decides what's gonna happen, then maybe the sponsors can go and fill up the rest of it. Ana, you've initiated a lot of new by-laws and amendments, did you have any thoughts about that? No, I mean, I think some of these are, I think that it's a helpful framework. I think some of them are more relevant depending on the topic, right? And I think that's what you were saying. So I think it provides a helpful framework. As you know, my main quarrel with it was it being required given the intensity of it. And so I think now that it's a guide that people can choose to use or not, I'm fine with it because I do think that it gets at good topics. I think the only thing that I wanted to add is a lot of completing this requires staff time too. And so I think that even just to go through this process requires a lot of conversation with the town manager. And so I think that if he's comfortable with that, great. But we can estimate that like you said, when you talked about cost, you're like, oh, right. And then there's like time cost. And so I think that I wanna just bear in mind that this is optional and requires, I mean, it requires buy-in from Paul that people are gonna come talk his head off on these questions as they relate to staff engagement as well as use of town social media or use of Engage Amherst, a lot of those aren't up to us. So that's my only other thing that I'm noting in my head is that those are good things to put in there. I'm not disagreeing with them being in there, but they require, this isn't in this section. It's in one of the other questions. Yeah, but I'm actually, I did think of another one because cost of, as you mentioned of engagement. So after hiring consultant is cost of community engagement. I think for me, like the big thing is to add in something of like, these are considered and it might be in here, not necessarily in this exact wording, but this is, I don't want this to discourage someone from bringing something forward because it's so robust. And so I think that also saying this is a guide, this is a recommendation, you can still, like it is very much within a counselor's right to bring something forward without doing this. And if that's what they choose to do, that's what they choose to do, but this can give some helpful framing should they choose to employ it. So I just wanted to make sure like that part's clear because I think if I looked at this and said, oh my gosh, I have to do, seven pages of questions before I can bring something forward, I'd be pretty overwhelmed. And so I don't think that it's that overwhelming once you get into it, but I just, I want to really drive home the message of like, this is intended as a support, not a requirement. Thank you, Andy. Yeah, just responding to what Anna just said. Yes, it is a lot of time, but I think that what people who are sponsoring a bylaw need or a policy need to also consider is how much time are they asking a staff and committees? And I don't know why you're privileging and so concerned about the counselors who are starting it and ignoring the effect on everybody else and the fact that taking up that proposal may in fact, as we have found this year, frustrate the process moving forward on something else. As another person or another group of counselors proposals. So I don't, I actually would prefer to say that I expect to see this and I'm going to discount the proposal from somebody who doesn't think it's important to take the time to give some thought to what they're asking. Mayor, Monica? Yeah, of course. Oh, okay. So, Andy, I think that it's within your right to discount, but I'd question why you're discounting something that is being presented as an optional thing for people to consider. I don't think that that's a, personally I don't think that's a good reason to not send something to committee, but the council, just because someone doesn't go through this process doesn't mean that they're not subjected to the same process of getting something referred to a committee. And I agree with you. I think we send too much to committee. And so I don't think that, I don't think anyone proposes something lightly. I think that no matter whether you follow this process or not, actually crafting a bylaw takes, I mean, having done it several times this year, it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of energy. And I think that some of these are more relevant than others depending on the bylaw, right? And so I think it would be unfortunate if the council started looking at this as a requirement because it's not, it was not the way that the rules were designed or the charter was designed. And if a councilor wanted this to be a rule, they could propose it as a required rule. I would not be comfortable voting for that because I think that while this is incredibly thorough, I think it goes beyond what necessarily should be required as an expectation for every single proposal that someone brings forward. So I guess, yeah, I think it would be unfortunate to discount someone's proposal if they don't go through all seven pages and every single question of this because it doesn't mean that they haven't considered it. And it's within the council's right to not forward something onto a committee if they don't feel that it's a good use of time. And I don't think any councilor proposes something without thinking it's a good use of time, right? I don't think that ever, I guess in my case, that's never happened. So I'd hope that's true for other folks as well. Anna and Andy, I think you both are kind of saying the same thing, but with just a little bit of a miss because like you said, Anna, any councilor who's putting it forward has done the work. To write the by a lot takes a lot of time, which means you've looked at other documents and done some research. All this is saying is, yeah, there is a requirement. Firstly, like many of us didn't know, I'm not the only one here, but many, and this is after five years, many of us didn't know that the by-law is required to be written in the format that it's gonna be adopted and that it's gonna change. And that's the other part, because once the by-law comes, the many community members and advocates, like even now we're getting emails like, oh, this by-law is not ready for this. And no, it's not meant to be ready because there's gonna be more study and all that. So part of this guide is to clarify for the sponsors, for the other councilors and for the community members, that yes, you're gonna see a finished by-law being presented at the beginning of a process. However, that's what's required by, and to do that, even to present it in that way, like Ana, you said, a lot of work goes into it. It's just that it would be helpful in the memo to just document that we got this by, we are suggesting these based on the best practices from here or based on this research from this researcher or so just documenting that process so that everyone comes on board early on, I think we'll go in favor. And that's what Andy is saying, like if I saw that in the memo, the counselors would feel more confident that a lot of the work is being done. And this is one of the questions that I sent it out to a couple of other counselors as well. And this was at, what are this? Not this, where did it go? Here, no, where did it go? Oh, sorry, in the checklist, can the counselors do the work on their own and how much staff support do we need? Because in some cases, the counselors are very passionate about it and they may choose to do a lot of the work, which I think in lighting, you all showed that, that you did all of the heavy lifting. And so that again is a discussion where in some cases it'd be like the water and sewage, it was like, hey, the town staff is gonna do it. You were the lead person, but it was a town. So even that conversation that is the sponsor gonna take on a lot of the work or are we gonna rely on the town staff? So these are all again, depending on the issue, it's a guide. So it's optional. So that's all good. The rubric was added and I just uploaded the document in the TSO. Again, it's for you all to use. What's uploaded is without these Xs, and then finally in the council committees, I think the questions are more around which town departments, committees, like sometimes you forget the police or the first responders. And so just like even documenting which town departments, committees and boards need to be consulted for their expertise and then being very specific, what kind of advice do we want from the town boards and committees and what is the timeline for the recommendations? And this is another very important one is who will liaison with the town boards and committees? Because I did hear from some counselors that when the sponsors do it, it can be discounted or whatever. But I think that they would differ. We didn't have a process in place. So now that we have a process, the main thing is to have a formal invite go from the TSO. Even if the sponsors are the liaison, the invite is coming from the TSO. The TSO requests the TAC committee or ECAC or CSHAC to provide us with feedback or advice on blah, blah, blah. And this is our recommended timeline, but of course you'll have to talk with the committee to see if they can put it on the agenda and talk to them to figure out what that timeline looks like and then have that. I just had a question and a comment just because we do need to be mindful of the time as everyone has already gone through this. So one, I appreciate the work that you brought forward and I agree that I think that this will be helpful as a guide for many. It's maybe not natural for everyone. I mean, you've pointed out that it is expected rather to come forward with a complete body of work of bylaw and how you would expect this to work and roll out. And I think that we see numerous examples of counselors who have done that work and bringing forward, but I think it's also a reminder. For instance, yes, you have it complete, but then it's also your work to decide regardless of who's brought it forward and who you're working with. For instance, like if it is something that impacts the entire town like you're talking about, you're using waste haulers as an example. So you have this example and then you start with your foundation and having it up to whomever is bringing it forward, doing that work to make sure that in the beginning, you have everyone who needs to be at the table there at your foundation, acknowledging that those who are at the foundation are bringing something forward. So it could be, I can see how it is helpful once you have done something and completed the work, you go backwards and then ensure or explain or at least suggest how you intend to accomplish that goal, how you're going to work with community and what you're going to do, who all needs to be involved. So the question then, if this is being suggested as a guide or part of a document that would be giving in to into the incoming council, is this something that we need to vote on or could this just be handed out as like a courtesy document, say an orientation? I think it is like when I spoke with Athena, Athena could speak to it more, but she did say that to recommend it as an legislative. So having that formal vote will just include it in the motions, it'll be more visible and it will have more legitimacy rather than just leaving it floating out there. But Athena, did you have a recommend? I do have a motion for us too, but happy to hear what Athena says. So the committee I think should recommend this to the council if the committee supports it. I think what we had talked about was not making it part of the formal council process. So if the council adopts it as a guide, it can still be like, Anna, you were saying you don't want it to be a checklist that has to be completed for every single thing. There are a lot of questions that don't apply depending on what kind of by-law or measures being proposed. So adopting it as a guide would allow for those questions to be answered when they're relevant and to be skipped when they're not. So I think if the committee supports that, you should make a recommendation to the council that they adopt it and move on from there. Thank you. Where does it live? Should I make the motion? Anika, did you say where does it live? Yes, where would it live? That's a good question. It's Athena. There is a page with town policies, town council policies and it could go there even though it's not a policy. It could just be a link on the main town council page. If the committee were to recommend it and the council to act on it, then I would want to share it with the incoming counselors and have that be part of the process. I think some of the things that Shalini spoke to about it being a living document is really important because some of you have had five years of experience serving as counselors. And over time, I think the council will get to know what more it likes to see in proposals and what information they really want to know right at the beginning and what is better developed during a committee conversation and so on. So I think it's going to be really helpful to kind of come back to it on a periodic basis and update it so that the council is getting, using it to the best of its intended use. Thank you. Thank you. Are you ready, Tom? Get the motion. And then we can discuss it some more to tweak the motion, but can I make the motion, Anika? Yes, I mean, is everyone just before we do this, is everyone okay with recommending going forward with this being a guide, a guide document handed to you? Okay, all right, so I think you can just go ahead. Thank you. So I moved to recommend to the town council the adoption of the legislative process guide as presented and discussed at the December 7, 2024 meeting of the town services and outreach committee. Does it need to have a second? Okay. Actually, before we formally do that, does anyone want to, Athena, do we want to add or Anna? Anybody else? Good, to do what? Do we need to add anything to this motion? Do you want me to repeat it? It was to recommend the council adopt the guide as presented at the meeting. Yeah, discuss at the meeting. I think that's fine. Yeah, still a second. Okay. Thanks, Anna. From any discussion? Can I just like to thank you, Shelly, because you really captured all of the issues that should be considered, whether it's formalized or not. But I think, even if it's just as a guide, it makes people have to think about what they're doing when they bring something forward. So I think it's really useful for that. So I really appreciate that. It was a lot. Thank you. Thank you, Shelly. Okay, we're going to go ahead and call. All right, Dorothy. Yes. Andy. Yeah. Anna. I. Shelly. Thank you. Yes. I'm an I, you're an analyst. Thank you, Shelly. Thank you. I'm glad you know. Thank you. Always, Athena. It was really fun working with you on that, Shelly. Thanks for including me. Okay, so we. Okay, so I'm thinking of a suggestion for this. So we have, I guess, an additional item to add. I'm not sure. Athena, can I ask you another question for the carryover with this new guide? Does this need to go on to the carryover or it's fine because we've already done it. You're, you're sending it to the council. So, so you can put that in your next TSO report to the council and then TSO is done with it. There's going to be a list of things that are going to be kind of council carryover items, which we haven't really done in the past. So if the council doesn't act on this on the 18th, then it'll be carried over at council. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so now we will move on to our draft carryover memo, which is at this point, just including everything that we will recommend that they, the council will carry over. Are there any items that are not on the memo that anyone thinks should be included? Yeah, are we, are we good to go and accept what we have? Not that we wouldn't have discussion, but just to make sure that we have everything on the table. Can you just give me one minute? I'm just, I just wanted to open it again. I'm trying to open it once again. Yeah, I'm good. We, I just have a couple of questions or ask if there is anything specific. So next Thursday, the 14th will be our last TSO meeting for this TSO. And so if there are, so, you know, we'll be looking at a final draft that we'll have ahead of time for, go ahead, Anna. Sorry, I'm just, we talked about it earlier, but I just wanted to restate that we're, we're separating out for the carryover of the Henry Street recommendations from the safety zones. Those are two separate, separate ones. Thanks. I know we had talked about it earlier. I just wanted to reiterate it now. Yes, thank you. And Andy, did you have another? It's really a question. It's not what we're including as topics, but how we characterize whether we're including all of the documents that have been developed in some fashion by or for the committee is a part of the carryover material that goes with the memo and how we characterize those things because there's some things that were developed and presented by a member of the committee that have never been discussed by the committee or adopted by the committee. And I think that it's important that any material that we have that goes along with it, that we also have an understanding of how the material is described so that we make that distinction so that a future committee that may or may not include members who are currently serving on TSO will understand that something has been actually reviewed and recommended or supported by this TSO and some things have just been presented but never discussed or taken any further. Agreed. Shauna? Oh, did you have a process in mind? Because I was thinking that so for the waste hauler bylaw, for example, I worked with the zero waste, of course, their input is so in the memo and I worked with Athena and zero waste and also for the bylaw itself, I worked with Susan Wade to get her feedback on it and Susan Wade, as everyone knows, was the Master EP, the Master EP Mac person who was working with the town. So I did send it to her as well. So do we have time now for me to just go over what was the reason for these different pieces? Well, if I may first, because I think if I'm not mistaken, the memo alone attaches above 18 pages, right? And then so for, yes, so for many of us here, but hold on just one moment, we're receiving a new draft, right, today. And so what I'm thinking is that to Andy's point, so for the overall carryover memo, that in ensuring that we are very clear that what we're differentiating between what we as a committee, if I understand correctly, we as a committee have discussed and any and so the any additional. So we're talking about how do how do we address and or include additional documents that TSO has yet to discuss just so we are giving a clear and accurate perception to the next council and TSO. So they're clear with where we left off as opposed to where we may have wanted, you know, or or some may have wanted to leave us just so we're clear about what was the actual business at hand we discussed. Can I just. OK, so the actual memo itself is four pages. It's 18 because it includes the proposed bylaw. OK, I can separate it. Yeah, I can separate that out. So the actual memo, which memo, which documents the original motion that the council passed, what was the TSO's charge and you know what would how do how we got here, including the previous TSO working with the previous mass DEP percent and then and then there's a section on zero waste, like their contributions to this process and their what would they like to see happen. I just wanted to make sure that that's they have a voice in this, but then and then it includes the remaining tasks for them. And these are again, obviously recommendations, but. You know, they get it doing the analysis, getting the analysis of the RFI is getting feedback from Townstrap and Susan Wade on the RFI is getting feedback from Board of Health and then so. And you said something added to date that nothing has been added new. This was all sent about 10 days, at least 10 days ago, if not earlier. So I mean, the TSO having the chance to discuss as a committee. Oh, how do you have this? Yeah, this is the the first time. So and we knew that this, you know, that we had agreed upon as a committee that these last two meetings, we would have like we were going to have two meetings to discuss our care of remember, we're kind of having one and a quarter at this point, you know, because we're just getting to it. So I mean, just putting out what, you know, making sure that we're being clear when we say, do our care remember of where what we have discussed and voted on as the committee. So, you know, there are other documents or other conversations that have been happened just to be clear of that. Andy, your hand, is your hand still up or did you have it? It is still up. This is very delicate and I feel badly doing this in a public meeting like this, but I'm shallony really did a tremendous amount of work in the last couple of months, focusing on the waste haul or bylaw and really trying to get to terms with what are examples from other communities that turned out to be good practices and from that developed a model bylaw. But what was happening because shallony was focusing on it so fully while other members who of the council were cosponsors working with shallony and the original didn't have the amount of time, nor did we have meetings to talk about that. So I can never remember a meeting since last summer with, it involved Jennifer, myself and shallony and Alicia being invited to talk about all of the aspects of it. So I think we need to be very careful as to how we characterize things. On the other hand, it is really important material because shallony who spent more time than the rest of us as cosponsors really just dug in and tried to get a full and complete understanding of a very complex problem and put forward information and materials that will help a conversation. So I think it's all valuable, but we just need to be clear amongst ourselves and to the next council as to where this was. And particularly we're in a difficult situation because we're losing one of our four councilor sponsors as a member of the council at a point where we're trying to move this forward. Can I? Yes. Yeah, and thank you, Andy, for articulating that so clearly. And I think that given that the by-law just needs to be in a fuller state and you'll still have to have all the substantive conversations. It's not really, it's not tying you down in any way as we have learned. It's just OK. So the reason why I'm proposing the updated by-law is because it includes the components of best practices, whether it's pay-as-you-throw model or reporting from the town hallers, which is these were things that Susan Wade really recommended. She said like our regulations and these things haven't changed, you know, for the last, I don't know how many, since 2014, I think. So just including a by-law with a more robust inclusion of these best practices is a good idea. And then there is a table that I've created which talks about the decision point. So this is what's being proposed, but you still need to get feedback from, you know, so there is a document. So I don't know if it would be helpful to have a meeting with you all before next TSO with the sponsors so that these sponsors are on the same page about it. At this point, are the sponsors on the same page? Is everyone in it? Is everyone in support of that? Say it again, Andy. I'm sorry. I was apologizing for interrupting. We can't really answer the question because we haven't talked about it as. So I think that's kind of where we're at. But in any event, what I want to make certain is that we get the waste hauler by-law into the experience for memo, the carryover memo, and that we provide all of the materials and that we correctly, as we can, identify where each of those pieces of information is. There's nothing that has been presented that I wouldn't want to at least make available to the next TSO because everything is relevant. It's just they need to know where we were in the development of each one. Well, and then and I see you, Athena Lichell and I had touched briefly in regards to having, like with the the overview of the carryover memo addresses where we as a committee left off and then having access and attaching to the to the new draft that is presented that was presented today and all of that information. So all of the information that has come forward throughout the committee is there. So it's so we're not excluding everything, but we're also just being very clear as to where the committee left off. So we're not we're not sending a message that committee that we as a committee have done more work than we have right now. So Athena, please. Thanks, Anika. One of the distinctions that we had talked about was to make sure that. So we had talked about the street lights proposal, having come back and the sponsors worked on it and brought it back, a new version and so on. And so we wanted to make sure that with this, this was the sponsors were agreeing to what goes into the carryover memo so that we don't have conflicting things or different versions of things that we want to know what the committee is, which version is in front of the committee to bring back to the council. So I think that's in my mind, an important part of just, you know, making sure that the version that goes to the next committee is everyone's on the same page, that that's what the council is expecting to hear back about. And that's what TSO is going to work on in the future. So I guess this would be a thank you, Athena, for that question to really Andy and, I know, and Shalini. So we have the two of you here. And I know there are other sponsors who are with us, but would would you all be able to get together and have it clear that all of the sponsors are on the same page with this new draft? Before we had time to meet on Zoom before next Thursday? I don't know that we would have to have a look. I'm sorry, are you talking to Andy? I think we can find the time to meet as Shalini has indicated. And what we're really looking for is just that we can be in agreement on how we want something characterized. For me, it's not a question of whether included, but just how it's described as far as where the status was. But it's all information that can be helpful and probably will be helpful to a next TSO. And particularly if none of us are serving on TSO in the next round. Right. Right. And just another question. Would it be helpful to separate out the bylaw from the memo? Because that did sound very scary. It's an 18 page carryover. I feel carryover is only four pages. So I was I was I was thinking about about the whole thing in terms of us going through something that I know that many of us are just getting to because we've had, you know, we've had quite a few drafts. I mean, I think that this is it's also I think a great example to start off with with your guide, you know, it's making sure everything is is clear. This is an important very important bylaw. And as many people know about it, there are even more residents that have no idea, you know. And so I think that the fact that the majority of residents do not know about this, they're not aware. You know, you'd want to be very clear, especially in terms of, you know, recommendations with without reach. So it's, you know, like going from your your your examples of, you know, just the it's a it's a it's a very big bylaw, but still plenty of of work to do and people to engage with. So yeah, that would be like a great starting off point of your own guide. Yeah. And that was totally my intention that all the work that I've done with Susan with looking at other towns and research and with the zero waste committee that it's all documented. And then none of it is final, right? But it's all documented. So the the next TSO knows that, OK, these are the best practices. This is these are the decisions that need to be made at this point. And then you can keep tweaking the basic bylaw around those specific sections. And it was my first really good formal bylaw. So I feel really good. Thank you for that to everyone who has who has participated. I know that you have really been consumed and put so much focus into that. It's been all around the world. So that's great. And so I think with that, can you just bear with me one moment, everybody? OK. Unless I'm mistaken, does anyone have an announcement to make? So for upcoming agenda, we'll be continuing on with this over by our next meeting. We'll have our version to to vote on. So if anyone in the meantime, if there's any thoughts that pop up anything, anything you think should be edited, please send that over. And you and Xiaomi, you and Andy will put send an update as soon as possible that everyone's on the same page with the sponsors. OK. Yeah. In human rights, we want to make the human rights proclamation happening on Sunday. Say it again. Even rights proclamation at Bang Center this Sunday at four p.m. if anyone wants to join us. Well, thank you. Thank you for that news. All right, everyone, I'm going to wish you all wonderful evening. We are adjourned and I'll see you next week. I see Dan and Nika. Thank you. Bye, everybody.