 Slido.com is like a slide, but it was a O instead of a E, Slido.com. And once you're there, please enter the code 000707. So once you enter the code, you should see a chat room, somewhere that you can ask me any question. Feel free to ask in English or in Mandarin, but I'll be answering in English. So and if you see any question, like below here, that you would like to press like, you can also like it. Once you press like, you will see the number here, which is zero, become one, two, three, and so on. And the question was the most likes would float to the top. So all during my, like there's one now, and then there's now a new comment. And my lecture will be structured entirely by the questions and comments that you ask. If here is empty, I'll just play you some videos and saying nothing. So ask me some questions, otherwise we'll just be sitting here and staring at each other. And so once I process a question, I'll just highlight it like this. And you will note that it is anonymous, meaning that you don't have to enter your name, you don't have to raise your hand. This system has two modes because I can force you to enter your name to enter this. But whenever I do this, I find that there is no good questions. Everybody just asks, you know, very normal harmless questions. But once it's anonymous, meaning that you don't have to identify yourself before asking, I guess I'm really good questions. So please just ask me anything and like the question that you would also like to be answered so that we can process this collaboratively. And for you who do not have a cell phone, please feel free to raise your hand or don't raise your hand and start speaking anytime as a conversation. And it is too hard for you, feel free to just ask a neighboring person to enter your question for you or write it down on a sheet of paper or something like that. And then we'll be structuring the conversation like this. So let's get started. There's a lot of hallets. Hello, everyone. And someone asked if this is my first time to Kaohsiung. It is not. I visited Kaohsiung many times when I was a student, when I was a junior high school student. The science fair was in Kaohsiung. I remember vividly visiting Kaohsiung for the junior high school science fair. And I dropped out of the junior high school at the second level after winning the science fair in Kaohsiung. So I remember that very clearly. And after I become the digital minister, I visit Kaohsiung many times. Also, one for the Fung Shih Da Shan Festival and one for the AR-VR building at the Southern Taiwan software complex. And then also at the Boer Elementary Translators to English. And as I said, there's quite a few digital industry-related events here in Kaohsiung. And with the Boer looking infrastructure and special budget plan, we are trying to shape Kaohsiung into somewhere that has all the rights of people to develop the virtual reality, augment the reality, mix reality industry. And I do have a personal reason to push this kind of model forward because I talked with quite a few legislators from Belgium. And they all told me that when they have to go to the legislative building for the parliamentary inquiry meeting, for example, of course, it is a lot of work for us to be sitting there saying nothing. During the legislature inquiry, but for the MPs, for the legislators from Kaohsiung, it is extra work for them because they have to wake up like way early like five a.m. or something and take the high speed rail all the way to Taipei and then attending the legislative meetings and then immediately go back to the high speed rail and go back here because they also have their local constituents to take care about. So they spend like daily commuting just on PSHR and it is a waste of time, frankly. And so one of the work that we've been doing is, of course, improving their quality of life by making sure that the ICAD-1 Wi-Fi network is available during their commute so they can at least get something done using a free wireless network on the high speed rails. But I think to fundamentally solve this problem, we need to allow more parliamentary hearings, more parliamentary meetings to be able to be done in this kind of Skype or FaceTime, this kind of media conferencing way so the local legislators don't even have to travel at all for many of those meetings. I think this is a much more practical vision than moving the legislature building to Kaohsiung or Kaohsiung. I don't think that works in the near term, but if they can save some time traveling, I think they will spend much more time on quality debates and so on. And because it's a live stream, it's part of the public television anyway. So I do hope that by making Kaohsiung one of the, if not the center of the regional leadership on AR and VR and teleconferencing, we can make sure that it is, even though counting by ESHR, a lot of minutes to travel. But if we've got this setting to get into our everyday administrative working system, then it's traveling at a speed of light. And when seeing from a speed of light how one is a really small place, when you say something Kaohsiung is transmitted over the internet to type A, it is just 20 milliseconds or something. There is almost no delay and you can see very clearly people's facial expressions and so on, telling us a very, very small place when you see from the angle of the speed of light. So that's my vision. Kaohsiung and I have you who really want to help to make this a reality working with the local people. And someone reminds me to speak a little more slowly. And I will do exactly that. So I will be speaking at this speed. Others, some of you, objects again. Jack says hi, hi Jack, hi Jack. And someone says this is a cool system. Someone asked, is the DPO treating the government employees as enemy? I don't quite know what the DPO means. I'm taking it to mean perhaps the, I don't know, Democratic Progressive Party or something like that would have been educated, yes. Right. Of course, this is a very sensitive issue right now. From my point of view, I've never belonged to any political parties. I don't believe in political parties. I think they are very useful back in the days of Sanyasen or Lenin. Parties were one of the most effective way to organize people to become those. They're very useful for democracy. But I also think that nowadays, parties are just one of the many intermediaries that is to say people who organize people on behalf, speak on behalf of other people. But we now have the internet and you can see things like just this system where everybody can speak for yourselves without going through someone who speaks for you. And then I think with this kind of new tools, we can listen to millions or thousands of millions of people simultaneously without having to have a party to speak for anyone. So I'm independent, meaning that I won't ever belong to any parties. And I think it is very rare that our previous Prime Minister, Senator Zhang, and our current Prime Minister, Yinchuan, is both independent. They don't belong to any parties. And at this cabinet, we have more independent cabinet members than members of any party in the cabinet. So it is a very balanced cabinet. Although those parties don't really like this arrangement, I think that means that we've got the balance just right. So I think this kind of a balanced cabinet does make sure that we can talk about policy as policies and treat government employees as professionals who work with policy work. But one of the challenges is that the traditional political party system traditionally sees themselves as closer to the people than the government employees is to the people. They sometimes see themselves when they are legislators and other positions as proxies who speak for people in some region. And my work, the open government work that I did with many people here is just to make sure that the government employees can talk directly to the people peacefully, calmly designing the systems so that we can talk about one policy at a time. And I think the parties are also learning the three parties, the three major parties, and also the four or five parties all have learned that they need to talk with people as if it's adults, it's peer-to-peer talking, it's not treating their constituents, their voters as kids, as children. Because Harlan is after all one of the most highly educated, the most highly connected in order of network readiness place on earth. So it is wise politically to treat the voters as children because everybody actually is very keen on getting knowledge on any policy issue. Of course on the internet we do have some issues with social media like Facebook or Messenger's software lifeline which makes it easier to share something than to read something, right? If you click share it's just one second but if you have to read something it's a minute or so. So we do get a lot of rumors and a lot of this information spreading around but I think by far the Taiwan Civil Society is learning how to fact check, how to check the rumors from the actual policy issues and they do listen when the government employees provide actual factual data as evidenced by the recent legislator discussion of the special budget. I think they are also learning they took a very long time not debating on anything but for the past few days they did invite the government ministers and they did have a meaningful conversation with the civil society on the specifics of the special budget and I think everyone watching the dialogue has seen the government employees be they appointed ministers or the professional career public students as responsible and very like matter of fact when dealing with rumors and this information and just curiosity from the civil society. So my work here is to make sure that people don't spend too much time when working in the civil service to answer to the same question over and again in Taiwan there is this sort of data inquiry process in which the legislators of council members repeatedly ask the government employees of the same information but they sometimes monopolize the information and just release part of it that fits their agenda to the voters who voted for them. Of course there are also very responsible legislators and council members who work on transparency there's a little bit of both but the government employees do feel a lot of stress because we do have you know our daily work to do but at some time it just gets interrupted by those random data inquiries so my work in the administration is to make tools make rules make playbooks to make sure that everybody just have to answer the same question once and then it appears automatically as a shared Q&A system such as the name from that pdc.tw website where you can see that this is a collaborative system that people just see those data inquiries and get checked by the ministries and then got edited and proof read and once they are approved it automatically appears in this public full text searchable frequently asked questions and so they stopped getting a lot of inquiries after this systems it goes online because everyone can just type whatever that they they care about and see the answers that a public servant has provided and we do use this to communicate with the general public and so after we got this online those spokespersons of the democratic progressive party the dpt visited my office as did previously the camp the MPP people also visited my office and I always keep them the same information saying that feel free to make the views of whatever that you would like of this information but please treat the civil service with respect and don't interfere our daily work with repeat questions and the dpt did take this advice and turn this into printed materials and also on their online live stream whenever anyone asked a question pertaining to the special budget they just voted from this website instead of forwarding it to the civil service so in this one regard I'm not saying other requests but in this one regard I think the democratic progressive party is making good use of the resources that was built to save the civil service sometime the next question saying as for today's topic we are for civic deliberation specifically virtual reality is there any project currently proposed by the government yes there is so at the moment every Friday we meet to talk with one petition case from the joint platform it is kind of difficult to explain just with words so we have some video so let's see if this sounds works now but if it doesn't well I can provide a voice over right so this is the shawarma episode where we see this petitioner here walking through a night market here we go so so this is at the actual meeting where we vote three petition cases every month so in the future. But what we need to do is to make sure that we can protect the environment in the best possible way. We need to think about what we can do in the future. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. I think it's very important. If we really have to do something like that in the end, if we have to do something like that in the end, then what will happen? Is there a way to keep this kind of trust? Today's discussion has been a success for us. Then, to all of you, to all of you who are watching, I would like to thank all of you for coming to work in the second half of this year. I hope you can discuss with us these issues, but I would also like to thank all of you for all your support. We will do our best to solve these issues. Today, for the second half of this year, we will have a meeting with all of you today, and then we will have a discussion with you later. Thank you. Thank you very much. Today, we will have a discussion with you on the two most important issues in the second half of this year. First of all, we will have a discussion on the issues related to the current situation. I also see that we will need to take into account the key points of our discussion. Also, I would like to thank all of you for coming to our meeting today. I would like to thank all of you for coming to our meeting today. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Introduction of the kind of work that we do practically every week. Is it possible to file the volume down or something? Anyway, so back to the... So those are our actual issues that we talked about. From the very beginning, we've got the labor union for civil servants. That's something that we all very care about. We also talked about the National Tribal Card, which was a very hot topic at the end of last year and where 5,000 or so public servants said that the National Tribal Card was not dedicated just to group travel. And the administration did reply, saying, okay, we're now relaxing it. You can now use the Taiwan High Speed Rail or something for your Taiwan National Tribal Card. So there's a public negotiation going on with this petition platform and everything is transparent. And after we handled the National Tribal Card, there is also a related issue of people saying, there is no good way for the administration to ask all the public servants of what do you think about the National Tribal Card. Even the name itself, somebody don't like the name, saying it's not about the nation, it's not about traveling. It's about being forced to take leave and not getting the extra payment and the reimbursement of extra leave card or something, they want to rename the card like this. So we also run consultations about the National Tribal Card and about the labor union issue for public servants. And every petition case that was discussed this way is mostly tracked so that every month we hear from the ministries of labor and the other related ministries about the current progress of getting a meaningful association of civil servants or a labor union of civil servants so they update us monthly. And so what about VR? One of the more recent petitions is this one. It's about 8,000 people going door-to-door practically with their tourists and asking the Ministry of Interior to deploy their new Black Hawk helicopters in the local airports of Hamchun. The local airport of Hamchun is so-called a mosquito airport because nobody really flies there anymore because when the EVA Airways upgraded their local flight the wings become too large so that when one of the two propellers gets broken it will crash straight to the third nuclear plant. And so this is not secure at all so they stopped the flight and they've stopped it for a couple years now so the airport is now a mosquito airport. Now the petitioners would like to revive the airport by asking the Ministry of Interior to deploy the Black Hawk helicopters there but why do they want Black Hawk helicopters? Certainly they cannot take it for tourism on top of the Continent National Park that's not what Black Hawk is designed for and by the way the National Park doesn't allow helicopters to fly in their zones anyway so it's not about tourism it's about medical use because there are three local hospitals they don't have the necessary surgeons to provide for example if someone has a stroke then it's about brain surgery they don't really have the equipment nor the doctors there so at the moment they have to drive by ambulance car about 70 minutes to reach the closest medical center the anti-medical center and if they want to go all the way here to Gaoxiong to Chang'an or some other hospital then it's about 100 minutes or something like that so it is actually a very long trip for a lot of people and many people died on the way to the hospital so they would like Black Hawk to be deployed and serve as their ambulance car so whenever someone needs urgent medical attention they can get onto a helicopter and then fly straight to Rongzong or somewhere in Gaoxiong and get the doctor treatment in about 50 to 70 minutes so it's still quite a flight and for people with stroke maybe not the best transportation option but they really want to highlight their problem with the local medical deployment and you can see 8,000 people seconded and so we first need to make sure that everybody is on the same page as of what really is the medical condition like in Hangchun so we prepared a lot of materials pertaining to this case asking as you saw in the movie here all the related ministries such as here we have the Ministry of Interior the Ministry of Health Care and Welfare the Ministry of Transport and Communications the local regional government as the Ministry of Defense all preparing the local materials related to the Hangchun medical situation and so we flew you well really took the THSR we transported about 30 people or so to Hangchun locally to give their presentations but most importantly to listen to the local people's feelings about what is it like to live in a kind of remote place even though it is part of the Taiwan so I think this is important because it shows that we're willing to engage in a conversation and it is much easier to get 30 people from Taipei to Hangchun than 300 people from Hangchun to Taipei who wanted to participate in the discussion and in Hangchun we had two different meeting rooms because in public hearing one of the recurring problem is some people would want to protest some people would want to shout about for example the Tarou conditional park which has nothing to do with canting but they want to talk about it anyway or there will be people protesting about the ride of the Aborigines which is very important but really not related to this case and many other local issues as well and especially when a government ministry comes there is a lot of people who want to have a word with me about things totally unrelated to this situation so we made an arrangement using what we call telepresence meaning that we have two rooms we have a smaller room of about 30 something people of the facilitator Fang Rui has the meeting room from discussing and so we have a very high quality discussion on many of the issues here pertaining to Hangchun and so the Whiteboard the real-time Whiteboard that we did for this case was then shared with everybody in Taiwan but also most specifically every Friday after this meeting the next Monday I take the summary and talk with the Prime Minister with the Secretary General with other ministers about how it is like in Hangchun and about the medical situation about the arrangement of the Ministry of Interior about the discussion about the local medical resources and even some other topics whether it's feasible to build a high-speed expressway or how to revitalize the airports and so it is very useful for policy makers because we know that everybody is on the same page there's no rumors and all the legislators and city councilors all saw the same map and talked on a policy-based basis so I think this is one of the most useful of virtual reality is making sure that the visual audio signal can pass through in a translucent like semi-transparent way it is like a one-way mirror where one signal can pass through but this signal doesn't really pass through completely it gets filtered so everybody just can talk about the policy issues on a matter-of-fact basis so that is our daily use of this work and in the future we're now working with virtual reality developers so you don't have to go really into one of those rooms you can just sit at your home and put your hearing headset and enter the meeting room with anybody else and we're also working with the HoloLens it's called mixed reality it is a semi-transparent headset that when I put it on I can still see you those empty chairs are now sitting with people so it allows the overlay of two different rooms into one room which is very useful if we are some day going to put the legislators in motion asking the prime minister in Taipei and he will connect the two legislative halls together I'm going to take a picture with you after the speech, of course you can also take a picture with me during the break we're probably going to have a break at I don't know, one hour into the discussion if you're okay with that so just reminding when it's about one hour in and also I think it's any time if you want to take a picture either as a collective or just with me it is all okay so how could VR to be used for public servants at work excellent question see if you are someone who works in what we call the BIM the building information system modeling part or road modeling it's likely that you've already used some sort of automated computer assisted design to design the buildings and to design I don't know, the roads or something out of the city and the problem always is that when you need to bring it to the public hearing people can't really just look at some PowerPoint and understand what is it like when the building is being built so maybe they will boycott the construction and say you will look much better if you move this road just a little bit closer but it's impossible to make a meaningful debate when the pictures all exist just in people's heads but with virtual reality it is now possible to do so this is one of the use of what we call the room scale of VR I hope this sounds still works but I said this is called city scale pan it is Legos, it is just Lego, the toy and the colors represent the difficulty of accessing the necessary utility services but it can also be taken to model epidemics to model population, to model walkability and so on so when people place those would-be constructions a projector from above and a camera from above take a picture of the Legos and identify what they stand like so this is just plain Lego but if you take it into the camera place on the table it almost magically gets recognized and calculated in simulation and projected back so everybody can talk about what if we move the building over there what if we make the road wider and then see a real-time projection of what it would be like so it makes it very easy for people who don't have a training as architects to talk about urban planning to talk about building cities, building airports or something and we're working with the teams developing this also to extend this so that it can work in virtual reality so only one room needs to have those physical Legos and every other satellite place can just put on projectors or put on those VR classes and participate in this kind of collaborative city planning so this is one of the I think the most useful thing to talk about for example the railroad constructions in the special budget that used to be one of the hardest thing to talk about in the entire special budget mostly because most people don't have a mental idea of what is it like for the high speed rails for the Taiwan railroad and for the local MRTs in Taiwan but with technologies like this it makes it very easy even like a toy to play with the constructions and the rail systems so that people can see and talk about whether light rails is a good solution to this local case without going into arbitrary name calling or other things on the other so this is a very technical introduction but you can see the potentials of this kind of technology for the public service in order to communicate our visions to people and if people like other architects who don't agree with our planning they can say okay if you do this right and then we can run a different simulation and you can even put on a VR headset and feel how is it like in a future city with this plan and then in another plan in order to talk about it so we're now working closely with labs in Japan in Madrid in other cities who are interested in this kind of technology and bringing it to Taiwan I saw a film about shawarma that was made by the office can I explain it further for sure so the shawarma case is actually a real case someone did bring it to the petition it's not fictional someone really did put it to petition the only fictional part about it is that it's not really 5,000 people because the National Development Council said it's a fiction, it's fictitious so they rejected the petition without asking us I think it's not the best decision because in the United States petition system called We the People there are a lot of jokes or fictitious proposals there there was one about the NASA should build a Death Star petition you can see the White House petition oh no it's a different person in White House now let's see maybe we still have maybe it's still in NASA alright, here we go so a lot of people seconded the petition to build a Death Star which is in Star Wars a star-shaped weapon system that Luke Skywalker destroyed by flying X-Wing into it so they really wanted NASA to build the Death Star and instead of rejecting the petition the NASA wrote a very long response saying that while the petitioner wanted to focus on a big project done a long time ago in a galaxy far far away the response has led to a lot of people referencing the NASA's Mars Space Program and the introduction of the commercial crew and cargo program and the NASA responded very very down to the earth saying that it would cost this much and so on but NASA is focused on some other missions so it is a very good opportunity for NASA to build a relationship with the petitioners by sending to their own email inbox a letter explaining what NASA is actually doing so I think the petitions are really a good way to build relationships over time between public servants and petitioners and they have to learn to talk to each other directly without going through representatives so I think it is very good for controversial issues but also for joke issues like this so we decided then to revive the shawarma petition and we did send the video to the original petitioner saying this is our response to your petition and built a film that explains the participation officer the PO network that was built where we meet every month to talk about urban government and petition issues there is a friend from the Pindong County which has got it in fire a few days ago in a legal factory can we use VR to plan a firefighting or check the factories it is actually a very good use of VR many drones that is to say autonomous flying vehicles it is like a helicopter but very small it is piloted remotely by pilots wearing VR goggles and going into dangerous situations to assess the equipment and so on and I grew up watching Japanese anime like the Eva Evangelion or some other robotic Mecha Evertimes the 5 star solar system or something there is a lot of fantasies about remotely controlling robots to do dangerous missions but nowadays it is not a fiction anymore people do do it for agriculture and for other like filming purposes literally everything now and so whether the firefighters can incorporate this kind of remote controlled systems into firefighting I think it depends on two things first we need to get the buildings themselves have what we call the internet of things the IOT systems the sensors built up so that we can know when humidity or when temperature raised above a certain level it will automatically trigger the deployment of both the firefighters and maybe hypothetically those auto systems the robots will arrive before the firefighters did arrive and it need to be coupled with the PIM the business information modeling systems and one of our youth council members Xiao Mei is now working with the Ministry of the Interior on this direction so I think it is actually one possible future and I do really want to see it happen and the other thing is this overview of illegal factories its relationship with farmland and so on we need to make this picture much more clearly and convey this complex relationship between farmlands and industrial complexes to everybody involved so people don't rely on hearsays or rumors that can actually talk about these things on a matter of fact fashion so we need those rapid responses but we also need an overview of the system and VR I think can help both on that is there another platform called V-Taiwan what is the difference between V-Taiwan and Join that's a great question the V-Taiwan platform is older than Join I built it with Ministry, Ex-Ministry, Jacqueline Tsai and a lot of Gulf Zero civil society people way back in 2015 or so so this is all about the digital economy V-Taiwan talks about the challenges that is brought by digital technologies and how the society need to respond to those digital technologies so we talk about crowdfunding which is not possible with our internet we talk about sharing economy which is not possible with the internet we talk about drones so because these and we talk about revenge porn which again is not possible without the internet so because this is all about the digital economy and the internet affairs we use a much more complex and much more dynamic process because we assume most of the stakeholders are online so we can use a lot more polished tools such as the revenge porn issue a revenge porn issue in addition to a briefing we use this system called POTUS which is an automated system that asks you what do you feel about even with them the lies sharing other people's body pictures should be treated as criminal whether you agree or not if you disagree for example your position moves in the network and you see another question about whether it should be criminal in proportion of how the names and livelihood of the person is being considered so if I say yes I move a little bit here so what is this this is not about voting so the numbers here doesn't really mean anything you can see 15 people here but they have a wider area than the 30 people on the left it measures the diversity of opinions it's not about voting so if you get 5000 people into the system all vote exactly the same as you just one dot on this surface it doesn't really change the picture what we want is get as most people's perspective and feelings as possible so if you answer a few questions but don't see your perspective written then you can then write your perspective and then it gets voted by other people and so we can see three groups Quincy group A they ok right so group A don't think that you know whispering of soft words between couples as you know pilot images but group C thinks it is actually so they have a difference in view and group C here says this is criminal and group A is kind of ok it's criminal but not quite maybe not and group B think that the current criminal code is sufficient it doesn't think it's sufficient while group C thinks it's a little bit ambivalent but B and A don't think it's insufficient and so we can do a lot of very interesting analysis on the opinions of the three groups but I think the most important thing here is the majority opinion everybody can agree on some basic principles so in a normal forum like Facebook or PTT or some other forum where people get to reply to each other people most quickly find the point that they disagree and spend a lot of time on why they disagree and then spend a lot of time on why they disagree on the reasons why they disagree and so they sometimes forget that there are basic things that everybody agree on a certain policy issue you don't see a lot of that on Facebook or on PTT people won't spend time if they agree at most they click like and that's the time they wish to spend on saying I agree but in Polish it's impossible for people to reply to each other if you've got a new argument to make you get to write it as a new argument not as a reply to an existing argument and people start to see that the positions can change and their friends are all over the place and it is not something that's set in stone but a consensus that we gradually submerged and this is run and powered by open source software by the community it's not run by the government even now the VTEL assistant the weekly meeting and everything takes place outside of the administration so I'm just someone who says if you want some ministry to join the discussion I can help you to find the right ministry in this case the Ministry of Justice but it's not about petitioning it's about people slowly converging on some perspective on some issue that the internet the digital technology has brought upon on the society but we won't discuss here things that are unrelated to the digital world to the digital economy like Hong Chun or the Black Hawk helicopter it's not about people's perspectives it's about facts hard facts that really needs to be checked on the spot so it's a really different system from the joint system which takes pretty much everything it doesn't have to be related to the digital economy anyway so it's different in two ways first, VTEL is experimental so the community takes whatever it likes and bring the technology to whatever experimental way but JOIN is the shared system between all sorts of governments the legislative is now adopting JOIN next half year the executive branch the Taipei City Demento County and I think the judicial reform national foreign also say wants to join as well so maybe you will really join the five units together on the same platform but it is entirely governmental it is not a community bit but we do take the good ideas from VTEL like the no replies pro and cons discussion we think it's a really good idea so we did bring it into the petition system here where you can now propose the pro and con ideas and so on and so it's not about just discussion the joint system the second thing it's also about tracking what is going on after a policy is made so all the administrative review things such as the shogun city construction such as the all sorts of disaster recovery and planning and everything here is being tracked in all the ministries and we get some discussions here also so for example the kingman bridge construction plan we see what kind of bits that they have outsourced and we see the budget and how it's being used but this is very non-typical normally the budget used is like this you don't see this kind of budget used because it means that you actually gave some budgets back it's very unusual so for the kingman bridge issue somebody said is the picture wrong or not it's not very typical Chinese but anyway everybody knows what this is asking and so the person in charge of this said thanks for your attention this is about our vendor actually not completing the work and we did give a notice and we cancelled the contract and we took the money back and then we chose another vendor so you see things like this but the good thing about this is that the next time a legislator, a local person anyone who wants to see you how kingman bridge is doing they just type it into a search engine and find this page you don't have to ask the public servant anymore and if the public servant gets asked they can just copy this website and then paste it to anyone who asks saying we will update you every three months or every month just right here so it is a continuation between petition, discussion and then follow up of the caring the joint is part of the government system it's got a regulation at Yaldian civilizing it but V-Taiwan is experimental and it's mostly about the digital economy will this be recorded so we can revisit later yes, right and then we'll also publish it on UQ since you've got a British accent how did you learn a cute accent I don't actually have a accent a lot of English is my forced language or something my grandma, my father's mother is from Luka and then she raised me up speaking Taiwanese colloquial but when I was seven years old and entered the primary school we don't have the new K-12 curriculum at that time so nobody really taught me how to read those books in colloquial so I know just very basic primitive like 60 year old colloquial vocabulary and then everything that's more sophisticated mathematics and literature I learned it in Mandarin it is just our generation but the new generation is now much better we did fix the curriculum so they can learn about Haka learn about all the Aboriginal languages even if they want it also the migrant languages so be it as a thing I then moved for a year to Germany and then in Germany and then it's not until I go back to Taiwan when I was 13 or so I started learning English and I learned it exactly as you see here just by typing I don't have anyone to talk English with I just hang out on a chat room and type with people all over the world so all the vocabulary I have is just to make quick friends with people just to talk with anyone so we get a lot of vernacular English typing but I haven't really spoken to anyone so when I was 20 years old I started going around international conferences presenting papers and talks and they noticed it's very weird because in Australia when I give a talk I will pick up an Australian accent because the speaker before me is speaking in an accent and I'll just pick it up but in US I'll pick up a US accent and in UK I'll pick up a UK accent but it's because I learned English really late when I was 20 speaking English really late and so I didn't really have any accent so this accent is mostly I think because I probably watched some BBC episode or something a day ago or so and that was the last English acoustic model in my brain and I just modeled that accent so if somebody starts talking to me like the New Zealand accent or something I'll just pick it up so I didn't really have any English accent so this way it's clear and hard for many groups such as senior citizens people who all lived and equipped is there any remedy for the situation? For the home trim case we brought the computer to home trim the room is the computer people don't need to learn anything that the whole point is about assisted technology is that it helps people to technology it's not about we set a website and ask people in 102 to express their thoughts their feelings just by watching the live stream and typing it on the live stream chat room that will be unfail what we are doing is basically saying here is a room anything you said in this room anything your hand motion everything is recorded and we promise to turn everything you said into transcripts we promise to turn every sentiment every feeling you expressed into online live stream so everybody can see it but you don't have to learn anything and we go to your place so this is the whole promise of assistive technology it is just by making people learn virtually with what they already know my grandma now 85 she's the youngest of my four grandparents my maternal grandpa is 98 now my grandma now 85 loves to travel but can't really travel much anymore so when I visited St. Franz or Germany before I go into the cabinet I bring with me a 360 recording device and when I visit my grandma I visit her every month in Denmark I just brought this VR headset to her and put her into the VR headset and say grandma this is the castle debt and this is one of the places in Hamburg that I just pass through and she can navigate very easily just like walking and riding a car or something in the virtual reality sharing the traveling experience I think technology really should be like that I'm not saying you know grandma you should VR basically means that you don't see anything else it is immersive meaning that you can't really take your phone call during a VR meeting because your phone is now in front of your eyes so VR makes sure that the person in the VR is immersed in a virtual reality and they can't get easily interrupted by something in their original reality that's a definition of VR but the same VR techniques can be used in many different ways if you have watched an IMX movie it is some kind of virtual reality as well because everything is black and dark you can't really see anything else and if your phone rings everybody gets mad at you so it's basically a room scale experience that also loosely fits the VR definition because you feel you are somewhere else when you are in an IMX movie but in a video meeting if you are just using your phone to have a video call you get distracted very easily people may just talk to you nearby maybe you get a phone call maybe you get a notification and we found that in a normal video meeting you can't really sustain people's attention more than maybe 15 minutes or 20 minutes they get distracted very quickly and so VR is also about making the experience distraction free so that people can pay attention to what is going on around them how do you think about it for looking in a frustration plan it is really solid or not so accountable that's a great question I only looked at some individual projects at the digital arm of the forward-looking infrastructure plan and many of those projects I think are really necessary about for example connecting the remote areas clinics so that they can do telemedicine at the moment it's really slow network connection so they can't really transmit high-resolution x-rays or CT scans or something to a larger clinical center to read and then to get back the transmission may take a couple hours if that you just send a car or something to the medical center instead but this is critical because in places like Chen sometimes you don't really need a doctor there what you need is a high quality scan and send the results over the internet and for someone else to help you to diagnose the problem so I think the internet infrastructure for this kind of medical use I think it is really infrastructure and it is really critical so we don't have any problem of approving this kind of special budget we also have the renovation project for the classrooms because in the new we paid both basic education we are now saying information systems and media literacy is part of the education now it is not just one computer class that people in junior high school take rather from the primary school on what the teachers need to use IT systems as part of education and also teach people critical thinking to think for themselves so this kind of setup a projector, a screen a high speed bandwidth system that connects to the student's cell phone that is actually necessary for this kind of education and so we also approve a very large budget for just making sure that every two classrooms that needs it at least one of the classrooms starting with the most remote areas has the necessary projectors and so without this kind of infrastructure I don't think the new K-12 plan can succeed because we designed a K-12 plan with the assumption that the students can't access to the public internet for a lot of their basic education and also we think by just using their cell phone to ask questions it means that they remain engaged with the lecturer they won't just start playing video games on their cell phones and so on so I think it is a good use of taxpayer money for this kind of basic infrastructure the other digital infrastructures are about common systems that links the disaster recovery system and the earthquake prediction system and the water quality system and all the measurement systems they were maintained by different ministries and now we are linking it together so that we can make sure that when disaster comes we present a unified interface so people can look at just one single map and see where the road is broken where the electricity is out where the water is not available and so on and so we got a lot of system integration tasks to do and although we can do it on normal regular budget the extra system doesn't need it to link the different ministry system together that costs extra money so we also took some plans to build this kind of information system to reduce the maintenance overhead going forward so although it looks like we are spending some money it's actually saving money the long run it's just the same data that doesn't need to be maintained by two ministries anymore and we think that it's okay to use taxpayer money this way so we have a few criteria it has to be one-shot it's not about recurring reimbursement and the one-shot whether it's on software or hardware need to benefit everybody on talent equally and that's our basic idea and I think the digital points are pretty solid the ones that I did look at while there's of course room for improvement and that's for the stakeholders to discuss I can't really speak for the other what it used to be for but now seven parts of the basic the forward-looking infrastructure plan but from what I've learned during preparation of the QA system of the infra QMA I think the most difficult part for people is that people would really really like to have some kind of consultation when we are setting up this kind of criteria like one-shot like no reimbursements like it has to benefit everyone equally has to be the common good was the definition of common good although the prime minister did have this kind of criteria we didn't really communicate it with the public instead we communicate the result of applying this criteria to all the proposals prepared by the ministries of the local government and although we tried to talk about sustainability and those criteria in our initial press conferences the media just wasn't very interested in that they were interested in other things so it's a communication problem and it is true that the general public think mostly even at this moment that the forward-looking infrastructure plan doesn't have a coherent principle behind it even though the prime minister in the initial press conference talk about this principle it didn't really go through to most of the people it is a communication failure it is entirely I admit that so when I prepared this QMA I said that we should do better but we are not used to that and the people working in the ministries while they are very busy preparing those reports they are mostly on paper we have a series of meetings where they print PowerPoints and write down these PowerPoints even if we want to make this public it would not make sense because all the context is in the heads of people in that meeting room talking about this criteria so I think this is about the bandwidth of the government if instead of just PowerPoints printed on paper if the ministries can send us models data evidence in addition to the PowerPoints when we are talking about those projects then we can much more easily share this with people when we are talking about the first principles and of course we can also get professional help to this kind of thing but it's very easy for me to publish something if it's already digital like the autonomous car there is actually an autonomous car in the forward looking infrastructure plan it's just categorized under green energy not transportation so people don't know that it exists and the digital information that I got the transcripts and everything I did publish people make very good use of the transcript but every handwritten notes and presentations I can't publish because it would take too much time to digitize those handwritten notes and it wouldn't mean much anyway so in the administration next year we are now embarking on a project called the Zhengwu Da Shu Jue Policy Making Data whatever system to have a data store where the ministries can deposit to when talking about cross ministry level projects and when we have that system when we get iPads instead of handwritten notes in our administration level decision making system then we can make those public much earlier than we currently are and I think it will clear a lot of misunderstanding and rumors so what we did learn from the infrastructure planning process and I think it's all about the perception and we can do better in the future to make the first principles to make the focus on sustainability and regional balance communicated much more clearly with the general public not just with a few selected media which got washed away very quickly how can we use VR in agriculture there's a lot of uses you can use it for agricultural planning and zoning you can use it to simulate the different decisions the use of pesticides basically anything that's dangerous expensive or unhealthy you can simulate it with VR and still suffer the same consequences you can break a lot of things in VR and nothing is really broken so anything that requires simulation of any kind you can do it in VR actually VR has been around for 30 years or 40 years or something but almost exclusively in military training so when a fighter pilot learns to fly a F-15 or something or a NASA astronaut learns to fly a rocket or something of course they do it in VR although VR was very expensive back then it is far less expensive than an actual fighter jet or a rocket so if you learn it this way as this shuttle this way then you avoid much costlier mistakes tomorrow so what we are using now is actually a cheap version of the actual military-grade VR and turned into a consumer-grade thing but with the rapid process of machine learning and of data processing we are now entering a place where we can generate data very quickly and so actually in the past two years using just our smartphones there's 90% of all data generated in human kind history was generated in the past two years because our cell phones and other devices are now living with us and gathers data as our eyes and ears do so to process this kind of data in a natural way to visualize it in a natural way because it was captured in a real-life context you really need something like VR in order to make it come live again because if you just put it as slideshows or as text or something it lose the context in which it was captured so this is why I prefer 360 recording to this kind of normal video recording because in video recording the person holding the camera has too much power they don't get recorded and it's like who gets recorded and it can make a very unbalanced narrative but with VR, with 360 recording everybody gets taken in every angle so everybody can just put on that has an angle back to that moment in time and so this is not just for meeting and things like that if you just look at area photos at a farmland it is impossible to zoom way into it and feel how is it like so VR helps us to zoom from the Earth's level to the islands, to the county to the farmland level and without using different tools different abstractions to think between different levels as we do now in the national land use planning we use one set of tools but for local zoning we use another set of tools and for a specific industry or farmland we use another set of tools and the tools themselves doesn't really talk to each other in this way so I think a lot of planning work can use VR excuse me but could you please talk about your opinion of 12 year compulsory education plus it's now that the Experimental Education Act has been around for a few years now it's not compulsory to go to school anymore it's just compulsory to get some education so if you or your child has a different plan to go about educating themselves all they need to do is write a proposal and get the local city education council to approve it and they don't need to go to school anymore and it's applying all the way through the K-12 and they can use some school facilities like two days a week or something and then all the way from the first grade to the 12th and so I think the new curriculum is really revolutionary and I say so not because I've worked on it before entering the cabinet I really think it marks a rethink of education before in the current curriculum in the 1999 curriculum we evaluate students based on the capabilities or our skills and we rank their performance on the basis of those capabilities of course children compare each other based on scores and whatever but in the new curriculum we're focusing instead on literacies and the three basic literacies are being autonomous self-motivated being interactive being able to communicate with people and common good meaning that to think of things that benefit all the parties instead of being selfish or self-sacrificial so the whole thing is about literacies everybody grows to a different dimension according to the new curriculum our goal with the new curriculum is by high school every student has their own curriculum everybody picks their classes just like university students do nowadays but do so in high school and every high school also has their own specialty classes like philosophy class or whatever so I think this is a rethink because then we can't really compare children anymore and when people don't get compared their self-confidence becomes more stable they become more self-assured because they only measure themselves their capabilities with the post of what they want to do instead of by people who just happen to be near by them in the same class and so to make sure that this education gets through I think it is most important for the people who are learning to be teachers like people here to also experience some of this kind of self-directed learning by themselves because otherwise they can't really learn with every child differently as they are and the new evaluation criteria would not make sense to those teachers because they were not tested in that way so there is a generational gap but I think it is good that we delay the new curriculum by one year because now the teachers get much more time to replant their local curriculum and courses but also the history curriculum gets to be on board in the same year which is great because otherwise it will cause a massive confusion so I am very positive on the outlook of the curriculum and because the experimental education is legal so we took a lot of this into the basic education but anyone who is a fit with basic education can always go to the experimental education so basically it is now a collaborative culture because the same elements the literacy based elements are now common in both the experimental and the basic education system and that is the main thing that we took from the experimental education system in the new curriculum as a public servant for more than one year now what do you want to change every form well I joined last October so it is not really one year it is just a few months but I think I call myself a public servant of public servants when I first answered the cabinet so it means that I serve the public service it is not my place to direct where the public service should go rather all the participation offices from all the ministries come to me and say hey minister the people using Macintosh and Linux cannot file their tax online and they are blaming us for it but we got 100% work on those RFPs what is really going on and then I will just help them going through the RFPs and see that even though all the functionalities are there when you use a Mac to file your tax what the RFP does not show is that it takes half an hour between step 1 and step 2 and 15 minutes between step 2 and step 3 so it is actually a very long time to actually file the tax but if you just look at the RFP it is all checked it is all there and it got through because the people working on it when you use a Mac all of them use their videos so it is actually not really useful a way to plan something and so as the working someone who works on digital service I think service design the way to incorporate people who use the service as part of the design if you design for Macintosh using people you ask people to use Macintosh to join your design team if you design for Linux instead of saying the public service should know everything which is impossible what we should do is simply include more stakeholders when we are planning our RFPs but it is actually a very simple idea but very hard to follow the accounting person or the telephone person or whatever the auditing people they are not used to this kind of working process they always worry about special treatment tuli or whatever but it is radically important that we do it in a transparent way so people don't say it is tuli but it is also important to really include users not just consults through professors I think it is not you really need to get the early prototypes and so I am very happy to say that by next year our text payment, text file and system will be cross platform to work our Linux and Mac because it is made a priority but I do this not because I am a Mac user but it is not that I order the Ministry of Finance to do this it is because they come to me saying hey there is people petitioning saying that our text plan system are crap what should we do and I am like ok so you should do this so as a public servant to public servants I don't really give commands I don't take commands either so all I offer is suggestions and all I take is suggestions including from the Prime Minister and none of it is binding but very fortunately I think many public servants do see that this new process of working with stakeholders of working out in a calm way not in a shouting way of communicating with stakeholders instead of just steam them as mobs or whatever it improves policy so we do get a lot of useful interesting cases going on and so I won't change or reform anything but if any of you want to change or reform and need some help just come to me and I will introduce you to people and I think that is my basic attitude as a public servant and public servant I think the rules of slide are based on attendance rationality what about your opinion well not really in Slido we also get people posting a lot of exclamation marks shouting or whatever but it doesn't really attract people's sympathy unless people really feel the same way so in a large like thousands of people place we do get a lot of irrational posts but they almost never get voted to the top so I almost never see it but there's exceptions when I get the lecture at the Zhongshan University the first the top most thing is about this thing called Chou Baohui where this motorcycle parking at admission just took away the students parking motorcycles on something and it creates quite an outrage so that hundreds of students just voted to the top even though I don't really know what it's about but they know that their principal is with me of course knows what this is about and so we talk about this right away and talk about it so if the majority of audience feels strongly about something Slido also surfaces up but you don't need rationality but you do need resonance with the people I think that's the point of the Slido system I mean Zhongshan for sure is older than me so I wouldn't call myself the pioneer so one of the earlier self-educated people since there is this example of self-learning some parents want to copy your model onto their children which is always a disaster so basically I wouldn't comment or even think people copying anyone's model especially not mine because it doesn't work it's not in the 80s 90s anymore in the current educational atmosphere it is far easier to find a supporting group locally rather than like I did which is almost entirely in one university and over the internet it is not normal now now it is almost too easy to find a support group on Facebook online on some other social media and then just join the interest group that already cares about the thing that you care about so this is a different landscape now and I think nowadays the children they are more than capable of finding those interest groups I think one of the things that parents can do is just showing interest showing curiosity and asking their children to show them around in those new be there on my games or Pokemon Go or whatever new worlds that their children is immersing themselves into because they are entirely that's cyberspace that exists online mixed with offline whereas when I was self-educating the cyberspace was still being built it was still being constructed and there's no existing cyberspaces we were the first people to build websites so it's a different era and I wouldn't encourage people in this generation to copy my parents model which only worked because it was the 80s and 90s but now I think self-educational self-learning is stopping a buzzword it's stopping a hot topic now it is just something that some people do and for a few years but maybe again for a few years and I don't think it's something that's special nowadays and so people who talk about self-education like Diva Lecture are mostly parents when I actually go to a high school or go to university they didn't ask me anything about self-education for them it's just part of life so there is also a generational conversation that could happen around this issue how do you think both the father and mother have to work do you think it's possible for them to accompany with their children in self-education for sure and this is what's different between the 80s and 90s and now now in many cities I don't pretend to say it's all the cities but in many cities it is possible to find health circles of people who self-educate their children and many of those parents are also professionals in some way they can also open up classes and to just swap their children around and teach their children what they know and there's also organization-based self-education and that allows the children to determine their own courses work and so on so even if both parents are working it is almost always possible to find somewhere nearby that has a study group or a experimental school going and it's mostly not about the time that you will need to spend with your children which I'm sure that the parents always do find some time but the management of expectation of the grandparents of the uncles of the aunts that's the hard part because people when the children go on experimental education they start having also the fantasies about what they can do but really it's just another model of education it's not that different but people start asking all sorts of questions and having a lot of wild fantasies and what have they done and then as parents that's the social pressure that the parents need to deal with and it's not about going to work or something it's about talking with the children and saying that no matter what you do that one of the parents or those parents support them in their decisions and talk it through and after talking it through do the convincing of the extended family and friends and whatever for the children so the children doesn't feel alone for defending themselves and I think that's the one thing parents can do for their children in barking on self-education because while the children know how to talk to children at their age about why they go to self-education they don't have the vocabulary to talk to perhaps about the same decision that they did and the parenting person, I'm sitting I'm standing, I've never seen I just wonder that about you what is the most important thing of the whole life, that's a great question you see, I see my life as somewhat of an accident or a miracle because for most of my early childhood I was told that because of my heart, congenial heart disease there's just 50% chance I will live to develop or something so I get told about this all the time and so because of this every time I get to sleep even now every night I get to sleep thinking have I really done all my duties it's okay if I don't wake up and I'm like okay it's fine and then I wake up feeling refreshed being me, being okay I can do something new right so and this is a habit that goes I think way back before I have memories it must have formed when I was 2 or 3 so because of this every day I see my life as something that's a miracle that's just accidentally given to me so every day I get to choose a different meaning of life for that day and then live a very short life that is just one day and then feel that I have no regrets for the day and I get to sleep and waking up have a new meaning of life so that's my trick but it's just something that's part of my psychology when I was very young before I even had memory so I had a very different outlook on life with most people I don't see you know fame or fortune or me or whatever is as important because it doesn't last over a day and I always want to plan for you know a few generations in the future because that's what work counts it looks like you know so many things what is your most interested area and what's your motivation of involving in it at the moment I'm most interested in those 20 questions that I need to answer for the next 40 or 7 minutes and it's true I mean my motivation is always crowdsourced meaning that it's determined collectively by you I don't see anything I'll just sit here and say nothing I've done this before and people are starting to ask me really interesting questions and I think this is mostly a bad query also because I'm really interested in the question that you will ask and vice versa it's reciprocal that's why most of you aren't all falling asleep right now so I think it is mutual practically every day and so I'm most interested in just listening and get us into a habit space of listening to each other what do you think about the aging population about the decimating population of Taiwan is it really a problem we can stop it by allowing migrations at least the progress of technology can also overcome the likes of human power what you said at all I agree so I think the aging population of course creates its issues but as my experience with my grandparents told me if you arrange the long time care the technology is just right as long as their minds are still active their aging bodies are less and less of a problem nowadays and we're trying to solve it even more quickly with the help of technology of robotic assistance of exoskeletons of virtual reality of personal assistance automated assistance remote control assistance and things like that the room itself being aware of the needs of the aging body and taking care of it and so that part I'm less worried because Taiwan has won the best the best medicine and the research community to address these kind of issues it is one of our main exports of ideas and technology it's really fortunate that all my grandparents haven't been living in Taiwan so that's one thing it's about healthcare and about the reduction of population as I explained I think it's not a monopoly of human beings maybe it would be others and speeches of human beings down the road and I think Taiwan existed formula yes before before human beings and it would continue to exist as an island formula yes out of it when there's no human beings anymore when we move on to Mars or to some other planets so Taiwan is a stage on which sentient beings live and humans I think so if we pollute the ecosystem too much so that new sentient beings cannot evolve or arrive in Taiwan formula yes down the road I think that's a crime against new sentient beings and it's a geographic based view in Taiwan that I always had but very few politicians share so I don't talk about it that much but I think it's one of the ways that we see ourselves as just caretakers of the island and if we reduce the number of caretakers that we can still do an equally or even better job at caretaking I think that's that's good we can meet that many people in Taiwan we need more marine species we have 10% of the whole world marine species in Taiwan and we should just keep the diversity and sustainability and if more human beings help out well more human beings if less human beings help out more less human beings and it's a very radically ecological view but that's my view actually I look forward to meeting you if you're excited you're not me too yeah hello there's a lot of hello there's a lot of hello that's the exclamation mark okay we know that you have doing this learning from junior high school can give us some suggestions about self learning and what can our future teachers do that's a great question I think it's not about teaching anymore it's about learning together when we're designing the new curriculum why we put the autonomous as the top most value is because when people enter the primary school and 12 years past and it exists the senior high school the world has already changed the many fields that existed back then wouldn't exist yes in the future many fields will be combined new fields will arise and students need to learn and that's the everything they need to do because they're going to be doing that throughout their life that's just what technology has prompted us it's impossible now that I'm good at one thing I'm doing very well and I'm doing it for life at some point machines are going to come and say you know it's 80% of it is automated and then you have to focus on the other 20% but the other 20% is this intermediated meaning that you don't have to go through a manager, a dispatching taxi company or whatever anymore you can always talk directly to the people needing the service that's gone so with this structural adjustment of fields of the digital transformation what we need to do is to define ourselves as the work that we do like I said my work is to listen to open up the government but this is not my day to day job it's not the task that I do my job is setting up some systems typing in some things if those things are automated I lose my job but I still keep my work because my work is furthering listening furthering communication, furthering transparency all the machines can do is help me on my work while they take my job away I would do some other job but if students grow up confusing the idea of a life's work and a moment's job and define them themselves in terms of their job then when the machines come and take a job away then also to be a pride away they also to be a service team away and that's very dangerous since we really need to grow up with the students by being collaborative learners by letting them know that it's always okay to learn new things and that they define their own life's work but the jobs that need to be learned to further this work will keep changing and that's I think one of the most important things that parents can show the students by being a life-long learner I'll say what is the most important value and the most important thing parents should make their kids know well I don't know I don't know you're kidding it depends on the kid it depends on your parental relationship right, I'm not a crystal ball I can't really answer questions like this you're home and your children we spend maybe 40 hours or 100 hours together activities maybe I can make some educated informed guesses but with just this words it's impossible I'm very sorry ketchup is appearing due to technological advances by American survey what suggestions for the next generation well don't focus on jobs see jobs as something that you just have to go through and to further some work define a life's work by each individual life that's just what everybody's doing nowadays in technologically advanced countries in their education system is why we need an educational reform for digital transformation because otherwise when people compare themselves on some speed of running or typing speed or things like that it's doomed because it's going to come and automate everything so things that cannot be automated because machines don't have a human life they don't have a human's body it's not possible for machines to have real sympathies as one human being to one another or as an animal to one another so spending more time with people is going to be one of the most important things in the future in all disciplines because things that doesn't need to spend time with people to accomplish to have a person's body to accomplish abstract things that's going to be automated in a way so if we train our children to be machines to do machine work, machine labor they will feel utterly lost when machines actually do their job better but if we bring them up as human beings and respecting each other as human beings when machines are just human health I would like to know that your life changing when you enter the government surprisingly very little changed I slept earlier and woke up earlier that's about every change I used to give classes in many different places in the world and now my travel is restricted that I'm not used to that but I found ways around I use robots I use VR I use classes in Kachou in Madrid just by them watching a VR avatar or a robot of me and there is nothing in the United Nations ruling that says a foreign ministry cannot look at a recording or a robot of Taiwanese minister so we do a lot of diplomacy using virtual reality this way because there's nothing to rule against that for all they know they're just watching a movie and so this kind of adjustment I really have to make because I don't have that much time spending abroad but I substitute with telepresence with robot with virtual reality and so far it's been working really well but otherwise I'm just doing exactly this same thing as I did before joining the cabinet I'm still public servant of public servants the taxpayers are now paying me to dedicate my work on this and not just as one of my project among working with Apple Oxford University Press and other Silicon Valley companies I don't have to spend time on those things now I get to focus on public service but otherwise I'm doing exactly the same thing would you introduce some websites that introduce useful or cool stuff like Slido of course why not so this is our website PDIS PDIS.TW which is just a shorthand for PDIS.National the government.TW so in this website you get to see some cool movies that you've probably already seen there's a play for you and there is the track of all the meetings that I hold and there is this tools part they introduce some cool tools that we use every time for work you also see our team here like the first three people look kind of normal but it gets weird progressively downward and until the last person who is sitting right here which is laughing exactly like this this is our team the public digital innovation space team and if you're interested in any of us you just mouse over this and see the name and you know someone who proclaimed that he is not a giraffe we have reason I don't really know someone says that they are from the triple eye and so on so you get to learn something about our team and then if you want to ask just click on any of our heads and you get into this public Q&A place where you can ask anyone in our team and we try to answer you as quickly as we can publicly and so we don't give exclusive interviews everything to be recorded and so on but people find this to be very useful so most of them just come here and type me some questions so feel free to ask any of us and we can bring this conversation forward online and just need a public platform for joining it seems to work pretty good how do you expect to this website well joining is really nice because it's now part of the administrative work it's not something that's special it's just everyday work now all the legislations and regulations that the administration proposes now regularly need to be reviewed for 60 days publicly or shorter than 60 days but whatever many days they need to be talked online and so we can see a lot of people's feedback on the regulations that we're about to pass such as one of this thing about firefighting really has a lot of responses and you can see the state of society the state holders asking substantial questions and have the DNA answering to them in real time and I think this is a really good dialogue that's been going on between firefighters and the state holders and people who care about them so before we had this announcement but it's just for 14 days but the effect of 60 days is that people can actually take notice of this and organize and ask meaningful questions get meaningful answers for a few rounds before the regulations actually got passed then this is, I'm not taking the credit because this changed to 60 days before I joined the cabinet but after I joined the cabinet I made sure that the 60 days are not just spent on calling this person or writing to this email which would overwhelm this person with a lot of duplicate questions but rather I used the joint platform to make sure that all the Q and A's can be made public and they have to answer one thing once and then the discussion can progress into much deeper reflections like this so I don't have much other expectations beyond what's already there in the tracking of the budgets in the proposals now maybe of course there's still the fourth part which is writing a minister and well I do think we can improve here because many of those minister mailboxes are just again answered by one single person over email at the same way over and again I think we can deploy the Westline Collect system of public Q and A also in this section so maybe we'll improve this section but as a public servant I'll only do so if the minister asks me to I will not force it to my colleagues do you think it is necessary for school children to learn programming how to cultivate disability I think programming or coding is a lot like law it is like law in the digital space but the difference is that it's like physical law the law enforces itself you don't need a lawyer to interpret this kind of law education we don't train our children to become lawyers but we say every child needs legal literacy because if you don't understand the importance of the law well you do illegal things and suffer different consequences so it's vital and important to know what law is the basic principles some basic ability to read and understand law and regulations and when you encounter a legal police or something know your rights to those laws and so on and so we say all the children need to know these things I think it's very reasonable but if we say all children need to become legislators they need to be writing new laws from scratch I think it's impossible and because some people are just not interested in writing laws so I think it's the same with programming it's very useful for everybody to know how a computer thinks what algorithm or data is and when encountering police on the internet know your human rights on the internet this is very important know the cybersecurity issues but not all children need to become lawyers and not all children need to become programmers it's useful for they be able to understand what program is to look at a program and not to be confused or terrified by it but whether they need to write new programs from scratch I don't think so I think they just need to learn the basic idea of the design thinking the computation of thinking that goes on when designing programs I think that's useful but not writing whole system level programs from scratch and so how to cultivate this ability it always helps to find something that the children care about or the parent care about one of my friends Linda Lucas who wrote a book about Ruby called Hello Ruby it's a programming book she told the story she's teaching Arduino which is a kind of small hardware programming to women she runs a lab and one of the younger mother learned Arduino because she want to make a counter with LED a digital clock but instead of displaying the time to her film or her artwork that counts for her child how many steps away mom is from home so when she walks slowly to the home her child sees the numbers from 100 to 90 something to 80 something and expects the mommy to be home when the number drops down to zero and it's a very useful thing for the child the child wouldn't cry the child would know expecting the mom to be at home someday and the mom would walk in a very steady pace knowing that her child is expecting her and I think it gives both sides some comfort of mind but this is a real use case that the mom herself thought up it is not some homework, not some Facebook exercise it's solving a real life issue so this is what we in the programming world called scratching once an itch it's something that you feel uncomfortable and then programming helps you to automate this by the way so that you feel comfortable and everybody has one different itch so it's impossible to cultivate without knowing what your children care about but if they care about something there is some way for programming to make it better whether they are programming or not so this is my suggestion just to find what your child cares about if you thought about retirement oh yeah I was retired before I joined the academy and thank you for reminding me but yeah I retired just for a couple of years before getting into public service but in some sense I'm still retired now because I don't really have something that I fear that I must accomplish in life I think I've gone through plenty of lifetimes so whatever I do now I do now for fun, for curiosity or for crowdsourcing meaning that people I care about you ask me questions that I care about so I answer them but I don't have anything that I think that must be done in my lifetime and so whenever someone reaches the state of mind I think it's a good time to retire to leave the work most of the work to young people who still feel very strongly about their ideals and about things that they want to accomplish in life for us other people it's all okay we're just here to see the young people thrive so I really talk like an old person but this is really what I feel most of my work nowadays is to teach the people who are educated in new curriculum can enjoy the world in which that they are allowed to be the most creative and explain their concerns to the people of the upper generation and to explain their interns this is why I explain the concern of the e-sport athletes, the yinjin players in terms of weiqi of go to the ministry of culture people because go is the weiqi game is something that they know and they have maybe played in their teenage so just by explaining e-sport in terms of weiqi it brings the young part of the ministry's public servants back to the discussion and the young people talks with the young people in a much more direct way but if we keep talking about things that they don't understand or have some experience that it doesn't work and so I think one of my my joy is helping the different generations to understand that their life experience isn't actually that different it's just different names any ideas to use VR in crime prevention I don't have any ideas I'm sure you have some there's surely some useful things remote control drones being one but there's a lot of simulations that could be done in VR also but I'm not an expert in crime prevention so I'll leave it to experts you're a very great autonomous learner could you talk about autonomic learning well the thing about self-directed learning or autonomous learning I think that's what children do naturally children learn because it's fun because they're curious about the environment because they trust that they will get answers from the environment if the environment stops giving the children that the children will start to suffer and the discipline that the previous century was giving the children was to make them like machines so that they are only curious about certain things and get good about their skills but as I just explained machines are better than children at being machines so we're now going to have machines who take over this kind of thing anyway so I think nowadays being autonomous and get back to the childhood kind of curiosity I think that's the most important and the cultivation the teachers do is mostly by saying it's okay to be curious about things that the teachers don't know about and the teacher learned with the children because there's so many new things in the world so I think that's the idea of autonomous learning it's just the natural circumstance of human beings and what the hell and when will VR be widespread in the consumer electronic market? Does the government have any plan on this? Well, as a matter of fact Codboard VR is now still on grocery stores I saw one on 7-Eleven I'm sure there's one saying Elderly Family Mart or whatever right so it is already in the consumer electronic market that you don't have to wait it's just not very good quality and you don't get to bring your hands into a Codboard VR your eyes and ears so to bring your hands in that takes another I don't know ear or so and to bring the rest of your body in that takes another ear or so so the technology depends very quickly and I think it depends on how many parts of your sensory organ can you bring in there will be different implications and of course at some point you will bring the feeling of body touch of being cold and hot of smells and whatever and also that's maybe 5 years or 10 years in the future but at that point it will then become possible to have a real empathy with somebody else's life by living through their life in their own angle of view point and so the government's plan is simply by ensuring that everybody has equal access that not just people in Taipei have access by making sure that we the children grow up knowing that VR can be used as one of the tools for the job not that they have to work for any specific VR technology because those get faded pretty fast it's like the early IBM PC Apple II or whatever those personal computers those get psyched really quickly design thinking, the computational thinking those are still lost the civil servant have used the big data well most civil servants don't have access to big data most of the data I work with is small data meaning that data that fits on one computer and that's what we work day to day and I think there's nothing to be ashamed of there's a lot of data science that can be done on small data the previous generation's data science mostly based on statistics requires a lot of the same formats data a very large volume in order to do any useful prediction but nowadays with machine learning and deep learning and AI it is now possible to use many different sort of data but also more data but still make useful predictions because now the machines teach itself it doesn't need a human to train it is a new development in just a couple years now so because of this the whole science of big data is also changing to accustomed itself to the new demands of machine learning of what we call multi-modality meaning that you're driving a car you want your body to feel of where the car is so when we're building a self-driving car instead of having the big data on any particular part of the car the whole car and even the street and even other cars to generate data to inform the driving so it is now the diversity of the data rather than the sheer volume of the data that is useful to machine learning and this is one of the things that civil servants I hope can leverage by just automating any work in your daily work that anybody else do the same work it will result in the same thing this is what we call redundant work because it doesn't really require your own judgment and those parts are the parts that I think should be automated way as quickly as possible even though it's just processing small data because even though small data is taking a lot of our time and time is much more precious than hard disk space so I think that is the first places that I will look to automated way is to read real work what can you prefer is that we will be disappearing by the digital world as a matter of fact no I mostly don't read paper books anymore I used to have paper books and I used this high speed scanning machine just by using any knife to cut the binding and so it becomes a lot of paper and then feeding it to a high speed scanner and then scan it to PDF and then recognize the characters because I never rely on vortex searching I want to know where in the book does some word appear and it's very hard to do so on paper but paper is of course great because you can make annotations you can do a lot of interesting on it but now I can do so also with tablets and in stylus so I don't lose the benefit of paper but I still get to do vortex search so the kind of book I prefer that I can search and where it would disappear by digital I think the glass is too heavy once it's become light enough and you can roll it up just like a piece of paper that's when paper box is going to disappear because then any book is just a display and then you can change the content and the technology is mostly already here it's not just not massively produced it will take another few years but once we get there I think people will embrace digital because they don't have to learn anything new you're all dreaming why is your English so fluent well I listen to rap music and I rap along with the rappers and when you speak something very quickly then when you speak slowly you will appear as if you are very fluent because your brain is used to speaking very quickly and then the information and the fluency the flow will be right so yeah I listen to hip-hop rap with the rappers, the MCs that actually really helps how many governments in the world use VR to deal with that that's a great question consumer VR is a really new technology so it really is something that's still being evaluated by the last team it is now partnering with a lot of governments just to make presentations more dynamic by having interactive models and that's one of the very normal day-to-day uses and of course the military and the NASA have used VR for many decades now so I think it's not about government samples it's about whether the current generation fits your use case if it doesn't, don't rush to use VR but if it does fit your use case well it's now true enough so yeah, evaluate it on a case-by-case basis do you think if legislators are paid to give them this high salary or not? I don't actually know I think it depends on the performance of the legislator if they really need all this research and put this to good use it's of course a good thing that they get to retain this many stuff I'm not envious of the legislators' pay I think many legislators are really doing good and important policy work but of course it's not all legislators so if some legislator you feel are not qualified for there's some that will don't vote for them and can hang against them now it's easy to recall a legislator too so you can perhaps recall them but I mean all this is you know, depending on the performance and I think it's not wise to talk probably about all legislators I'm sure many of them are doing very important and focused work well the only thing that doesn't get exponentially better is battery so I get to switch to my phone here is it still loading? is anyone who doesn't have a phone and have a question to ask do you have a phone while we're loading anyone? does anyone want to practice spoken English by asking anything? or maybe not? well, in that case well, in that case let's get back to this thing can you still see it? it's good? so what's the difference? this one did actually between video and VR so it's mostly about destruction VR is anything that you can make it feel immersive and destruction free how do students from the K-2 of compulsory education catch up with the course in our university will the government change the policy for nowadays higher education? yes so as part of the curriculum reform we're now putting a lot more focus on T-Shu Gao Geo technology for senior high schools there is nowadays almost everybody see Gao Geo or technological schools as just one of the prep schools for a technological university it's like people have to get a degree for some reason but in the K-2 reform we emphasize on getting the right connections to the industry to get certificates or to get real world training before deciding that you need theoretical training so it's entirely okay to finish a technological senior high school and then go to work and then once you're ready to go to work then go back to university this is actually one of her main committee points and I support that completely the most challenge thing that we discussed when doing this topic is the mindset of the older generations who still see a university degree as something that's useful or required why it really isn't if your interest is not into really good studying and so the government does plan to change that and as a high school dropout and as someone who is entirely technological in the early teens training I am very willing to help spreading the idea that technological education in high school is actually sometimes preferred for many children what's the policy on VR of the government in the near future well first we try to tell people VR is not just for gaming this is pretty successful now people think VR and they think tourism, education training whatever it's not just about games anymore I think we really did get the message through and the next thing we're going to do here in Gaoshuang is to build a proof of concept of a VR park so that people can actually build here and to participate in useful work like participating in a public hearing or whatever or trying out a new model of a con simulated things like this here locally in Gaoshuang once people have first-hand experience especially legislators once they have first-hand experience in doing this then we talk about more applied uses of VR but I think the first challenge we're going to solve in the next few years is just to get everybody plus an experience how do you think about the brain circulation about the brain drain in Taiwan well I think well it's about equality if foreign talent visits Taiwan but really can't stay for long and has to reapply for every few months and doesn't only get the ARC of something and for many systems they ask for the ID number and doesn't accept the ARC number and for many websites it doesn't translate easily using Google Translate and so on it really creates a lot of issues about foreign talents working here and this is the question I'm sure that you should make your work work on this other film of this by switching to the right if I know what better so archive the questions that we just did so we did this we did we're now doing this alright then so yeah we need to make the foreign talents enjoy equal treatment better while now they're massively disadvantaged and I'm not saying about being very lucrative offers to foreign talents or anything it's just by preparing a work environment that lets them work somewhat equally as local talents I think that's the very basic thing we're needing to do now in the legislation arguing exactly that and I hope the legislators do their deliberation on that as in this that they would like and then your opinion with the key point to reduce the digital gap between different generations I think one of the key points is that understanding that the digital transformation always happens locally first as some place is what we call the future is already here not just evenly distributed yet so we always see some local futures trying different ways of life using new technology I think the key here is to let people know that it's good it's relaxed it's comfortable enough to experiment with new technology without getting the regulator saying oh you're breaking the law or something and this is why we have the FinTech Experimentation Act Genome Transnationally now also in the legislature science because if we can do that experiment by breaking a few regulations just for six months or 12 months then the whole society learns how the digital technology works as a whole society not just a few people experimenting in my lab or something so I really look forward for that happening and if that works really well then we are going to probably have also experimentation acts in other known FinTech sectors and I think that society is for the better if we all learn about this in the public What can we anticipate from the Asia linking to the Silicon Valley development project? We A&R mobile payment domestic industry potentially or potentially boom? Well the ASVDA is a independent agency the government doesn't directly control them it's mostly about linking to other Asian hubs and linking to the Silicon Valley in capital, in human resource in regulation, harmonization and things like that so in short it's not the digital ministers place to direct the ASVDA the ASVDA if they want some regulation change that they liberated it's my job to talk with legislators and so on but it's not the other way around it's not without John Singh anymore we're not talking to ASVDAs and you need to promote this to industries and let others suffer like that we just learn what people want to experiment and help them grow equally so yeah I don't do predictions but we do process the technological impact of our society as a society as they come and we did this well feeling frustrated and headless was the just in conform embarrassing situations usually I make music or make poetry or sing or listen to some I don't know sounds or something that always helps and literature helps going into nature helps putting words putting names to those feelings helps because then you're distancing yourself away but more or less just you know distance at some point somewhat from your emotions writing it down helps by keeping a room in your mind that is more than the emotions so that you can make informed decisions about the emotions just watch it come and watch it go by because your brain is where the emotion you know is like a guest visits you but it's not you're not defined by your emotion and suggestion about protecting mobile phone or using a ransom name software that's a great question well use a Mac but if you can't if you have to use Windows then they use Windows 10 which is self-updating and if you keep it self-updating it actually makes most of the attacks go away but if you're stuck with Windows XP or something nobody can protect you so yeah that's just trying to out update can you please tell us how to run by oneself mobile phone education system well we call it that it's called in the Experimentational Education Act the Xin'en Jiao Yu San Fang but mostly it's just by looking for support groups who care about the same thing as you care about and then learn from them not from me because I don't really know what you care about but if you care about something there's always a community somewhere I need to know as well how governments public business improve operation efficiency great question well by automation as I said and by this intermediation if you can talk with people directly do it that way not go through three or four intermediaries because the message gets changed it gets blended that way so this intermediation automation are always the way to improve efficiency but also improve quality of life I think VR has one of its primary use in business learning and then this is why we're approaching for those basic high quality infrastructure fiber uptake connections in all the basic school systems because otherwise only some schools in large cities get access to those VR mediated learning and many other schools will get stuck by watching YouTube videos it's not fair so as part of the infrastructure plan we're making sure that everybody has access to the infrastructure down the list and information safety security protection need to be done when using VR in the public sector yeah we need to use government proof penetration test it standard security approved political peers quite a few eyes so this is not different from any other video or recording equipment there are standard protocols on this and we do build our system on the government intranet or on the high net government region cloud which is a government dedicated internet bank man I think that's all the questions and yeah we're even leaving some minutes for people who want to speak anyone who want to practice learning spoken English but if nothing then we're going to something right here thank you very much commissioning the time thanks for your effort in the sharing that's it commissioning the time of big applause we will end here thank you for your participation in the communication I have a private to you um um me we'll see you night you you I