 Stop creating crisis for state governors, Femi Faluna warns federal government, as Miehti Allah asks the federal government to stop state governors from enacting the anti-open-brazing law. Plus, the 9th of September every year is observed world over as international day to protect education from attack. And a special report shows that Kanu, Aqwaibu, eight other states house the most of Nigeria's out-of-school children will be talking about that because this is Plus Politics and I am Meri Annapur. Human rights lawyer Femi Faluna has asked the federal government to allow the state government to decide the livestock policy. He urged the federal government to desist from creating problems for states with the grazing reserves policy that it sent backing upon. Meanwhile, Miehti Allah, cattle breeders association of Nigeria, on Monday asked the federal government to stop state governors from enacting the anti-open-grazing law. Joining us to discuss this is Public Affairs Analyst Ambrose Igboke, Legal Practitioners Chris Itamanola and Tamino Williams. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Good evening. Thank you very much. Good evening. Am. All right. So I am going to start with the lawyers in the house because there are some legal issues in the middle of all of this. First and foremost, critics have asked why the federal government is insistent on bringing back a clause in a law that was enacted sometime in the 60s and if it actually does have a place in today's world, which is 2021. So I'll start with you, Mr. Tamino Williams. Do you think that the government can bring that 1968, if I'm not mistaken, or 63 law about grazing roots back into a 1999 law, which is a constitution as amended? Is it even realistic in the first instance? Mr. Williams, can you hear me? All right. We'll toss the question to Itamanola then. We will try to get Itamanola Williams to make his input. Mr. Tamino, can you go with that? Well, until 1978, when the Land Use Act came into effect, the powers, you had the North, you had the Western region and the Eastern region. And of course, when you talk about the Northern region, that's what culminated ultimately into the 19th state. Of course, in 1978, you now have the Land Use Act and the consequence of which is a vesting the various lands in the states, in the respective governors of the states. So one fact is certain and that is that if we have to move on as a country, we've got to know where the right of the federal government starts and where it ends. And the federal government must recognize that what we have is intended to be a federalism. But are we actually practicing that federalism? The answer is no, because the basis of which is where the challenge is coming is because the federal government is imposing its authority on the various states, not recognizing that the states definitely have a power. And the president definitely has his own challenge in this particular case, especially where both North and South, in this case, the 19th states and the 1000th states have come together to state that what you are doing federal government is wrong. What is needed is not grazing, but at least in each of the states for the respective states to determine what will happen to them. And that's where the conflict is definitely coming, ranching as against the grazing. Okay. I hope that we have got some time and not back because I want to ask him a question. Mr. Williams, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you very clearly. Perfect. Okay. So Femi Faluna has said that the federal government never created grazing routes and has no business reviewing them. What are your thoughts on that? Because Mr. Taminole has given us a background as to what the 1978 law on, you know, Land Use Act is saying. Yes. So quickly, do you think that Mr. Faluna is correct in terms of not the federal government not creating grazing routes and has no powers to review them? Very simply, I agree on all fours with my Lenoxino, but it's a Taminole. And then Faluna to some extent agree with him. But we must note that there was a grazing law before. And that law became extinct. Post went to the enactment of the Land Use Act. Okay. Now by virtue of the Provisional Land Use Act, every land in the state is held in trust by the governor for the benefit of the people. And grazing, ranching, these are private businesses. So essentially, I do not see the necessity why the federal government should take upon itself the responsibility of determining how businesses will be done. The best that will have happened will have been to engage the states, you know, and see if grazing or the use of beef or the sale of beef, how best it can be done for economic purposes. We just look at other countries like America, which is a federal state, you know, even back to the Republic, which is not a federal state. These businesses are private businesses. They're just the peculiar nature of Nigeria and our peculiar way of thinking. So essentially, grazing is a business. Ranching is a business. It's not the duty of states of a government to go and impose. That is my take on the matter. Quickly, let me see. Okay. Why do you think the federal government is still insistent? Because these two learned gentlemen are telling us that it's unnecessary. But the federal government seems pretty insistent. And now we have this, you know, policy that they're coming up with again. Why do you think that the federal government is mostly concentrated on this issue? The constitution of the federal republic of Nigeria designates the powers and barriers of each tier of government. When you come to the exclusive lists, the federal government is in charge of that. I mean, things like aviation, things like the military, the fence, territorial integrity and some of those things. Even mining, which is supposed to be not an exclusive list, is still there. And that is why we are having issues economically where the federal government is mining and national resources are in state. They have not been effectively able to do that. A lot of the things the federal government has in exclusive lists have not been done very well. They are trying to bite more than can chew by, you know, going into what is in the, into the other list of the state government that I can do. For example, the issue of the land. And that is dry in every state. The person who authorizes what we call certificate of occupancy, COO, is vested in the governor of the state. A motion number. Go ahead. And that is why the northern region of that time created what they had the grazing roots for in the northern region of the country only. We did not go into other parts of the country. The Midwest had their own. The southern, eastern region had their own. And the later the middle bit. So I don't know where this thing is coming from. Where people are insisting there was another, there was a grazing. There was no grazing route. The only grazing route that we had was the northern part, the northern region of the country. And that was about it. I think that we're having connection issues there with the Missy bouquet. Missy bouquet, can you hear me? The economic, in terms of the economic potential of, in terms of the economic potential of, of ranching, there are so many economic potentials in ranching. For example, the dairy produce, the leather products that come from it. We are not even looking at that, but we are only talking about meat, meat, meat. Grasing only causes that gives you meat and brings about the destruction of farmland, bring about killing, sacking of communities and all kinds of problems that cost for us in this country. When we do ranching, for example, we are not only harnessing the meat from the cattle, we are also harnessing the leather processing that will come on board. The dairy industry will come on board. And there are so many ancillary services when it comes to dairy. And others, even the cow bones, you can use it for bone powder. There's a lot, there's a lot of, you know, ancillary services that can come from ranching. And that is... Value, value change. Value additions, you know, when you come to ranching. Therefore, the, what the government should be, somebody was, I mean, I mean, Valano was arguing that why would the government give $6.2 billion to Casino State to go ranching while it's trying to open a grazing route in other states. So that, it doesn't go well for the present reality of how agricultural practices should be. Even the federal minister of agriculture has talked about good agricultural practices. And we're talking about agricultural transformation agenda and all kinds of things to be able, for Nigeria to be able to key into the global modern cultural practices of agriculture. And that is the only way to go. Even the national electoral transformation policy of the government also encourages a ranching. Therefore, the federal government should not be at us with its debt. It should be focused more and see how we can go with ranching and encourage state governors to see how they can invest in ranches and bring people, investors to a part of that business. And in talking about dealing with state governors and back to you, Mr. Taminolla, why is it more, why do we see more of federal government releasing press statements and giving orders instead of having some form of a round table with state governors as to addressing this issue of open grazing and of course, how they can chat a way forward. Instead of what we're seeing, we see more of press releases, we see more of political statements. It's either the federal government is saying that the governors, southern governors forum and what their position is more political. They're trying to make the federal government look bad and all of the other things that are happening. What is stopping the federal government and states to sit on a table to have this conversation if we know, like you all have said, that this will bring a better outcome? That is if everybody is in agreement, by the way. That's precisely where the problem lies. The federal government has got to recognize that there is a constitution that rules the nation and that the federal government is the federal government and the state governments are the state governments. And of course, the foundation, what the federal government has succeeded in doing so far within a particular period of time is to bring suspicion. Under normal circumstances and ideally, there shouldn't have been a fuse whether it is ranching, whether it is grazing. But for every policy you bring up, people, whether it's the federal government, whether it's the advisers, whether it's the state or the advisers and whatsoever. Somewhere along the line, rather than to look at the issues, parties are encouraged to look behind and to be suspicious. On the basis of that, for example now, you want to talk about equality. You have security challenges in the north, you have security challenges in the south. It's a terminal, can you hear me? Are you still there? Yes, I'm there. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Yes, the important thing is this helps men are acting like terrorists. And while they are acting as terrorists, it's the law of the federal government of the federation bringing them to other, in relation to how you have expected yourself to react or how you have reacted in terms of other issues like security challenges that are coming from the east. But when you say all these herdsmen are acting like terrorists, all the herdsmen are not necessarily terrorists. It's just that there are a group of people who are hiding behind, you know, herders to make acts of terrorism. They're not all terrorists. I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. I will draw the use of that word. The important thing is some of them have given an impression that they are terrorists. I mean, you go about it, guns. I mean, the lifestyle of acts men have been there before 1970. It had been there even in the 80s. It had been there even in the early 90s. How come it is that it is now that this is done? And how many, in respect to whether you are coming from the north, south or east, and once you violate the law, is there a assurance, a guarantee to the states, to the individuals, to the persons that there is definitely going to be law to be able to penalize in that particular situation? I think this is the trust of the matter. Miss Igboke, an interesting thing to notice that Miiti Alaw is calling for the federal government to put a stop to states trying to outrightly ban open grazing. Now, on the other hand, governors of at least 17 states in the south have already OK'd the ban on open grazing. I think Benway State was the first state in the country to even enact this law in the first instance because of what they were experiencing. And now southern state governors have taken that position. Although the emo state governor has recently withdrawn and decided that he's not going to go with it, so that means it's a minus one. But Miiti Alaw, on the other hand, asking that federal government put an end to this ban, sort of, does it mean that Miiti Alaw is saying that it's OK for cattle rustling, which is also happening to members of the association, to continue? Are they also saying that it's OK for people to be killed and farmlands destroyed, crops and food produce destroyed in the name of herdsmen or people are cattle trying to graze? Are they saying that they're OK with bandits hiding behind herders to cause the kinds of commotion and the killings and abductions that we're seeing on a daily basis? Is this what McBurn is asking for? I think Miiti Alaw Cattle Breeders Association of Nigeria, McBurn, should tread more softly. They are starting to constitute themselves as parallel governments in Nigeria. They are just about a union on association of people who are trading in cattle. I don't know why they see themselves as being a parallel government, additional instructions. Mr. Boko, can you hear me? Are you still there? Yes, I'm still here. Can you hear me? Yes, we lost you for a minute, but go ahead. So I don't see why McBurn sees itself as an association that is an alternative government. The way they talk, the way their utterances in the past, the way their challenge constituted authorities in different states, costs for concern. They are not bigger than the constitution of Nigeria. McBurn is not bigger. Therefore, McBurn should submit itself to constituted authority and stop constituting alternative or parallel government to itself. They have their personal opinion. McBurn can say whatever they want to say. Well, the laws of the land must be obeyed. And the laws of the land vest the authority of whatever to do with the government and its state. Therefore, if the state says that a law passed by a state assets of assembly says that there is no grazing in a particular state, it must be obeyed by McBurn. McBurn cannot on its own say that it will not obey a law passed by the state. That is a call for anarchy. That is a call for chaos in our country. That is a call for disobedience and the program disobedience of the constitution. Therefore, McBurn should submit itself to the positions of the state's house of assembly all over the country that have enacted anti-open grazing law. They should rather sit down with the state, talk to their members to embrace the new form of modern category, which is ranching and also make their members see the benefit of it. They can also take a tour to countries where things are... For example, in other countries, in Europe and other countries that are doing very well with ranching. And there are ranching. There are also some South African states to do some agricultural practices which includes ranching when I think Dr. Muswala Salaki was governor there. And by now, the thing has grown exponentially. I'll take a look at what ranching is doing. So, McBurn should submit itself to constitutional authority as they cannot... This will be a state law. Whether they are backed by the federal government or Nigeria is a constitutionally wrong country and citizens must obey, no matter who you are. Mr. Williams, going forward because we're almost wrapping this conversation up many have pointed to ranching as the solution to the problem if we must be able to fish out the people who are hiding behind the guise of normards to perpetrate violence and destroy farmlands that cost all kinds of mayhem. But what are the other ways that we can deal with the political issues because this seems a bit more... It is a sensitive issue we all know but it's a bit more political and how do we tear off that political lining from off this conversation so that we can deal with the real issues going forward? Essentially, you have to be historical in the sense that... Remember, we returned to the democratic of 1999 and Obasanjo was then the president. Not too long we had the issues of the IYC, the Ijo agitations, you recall. The Ijo agitations resourced control and all that. It culminated with the issue of amnesty and then we had some measure of peace in it in Ninja Delta. And then thereafter, you remember, a must-of movement for the Igbo people. At the point it came down when Jonathan became president and then when Buhari came, the issue of IPOC came. Now, if you look at it critically, all these issues, the way forward is political. Now, why is it political? We must exist as a state under a rule of law and then rule of law will essentially come when you engage, people come together to talk, define what policies, what type of government that they want. So this is economical in the sense that we need to come together and look at how best can we develop our country and we do that by basically coming to know that the various people of Nigeria want some measure of autonomy, you know, like going back to the... I think we lost you there, Mr. Williams. Are you back with us? Can you hear me? I think we lost Mr. Williams in closing. But I want to quickly see if we can get a closing remark from Mr. Yutamanola. Can you quickly just wrap this up for us? Well... In a statement, in a sentence rather. Nigeria is a very wonderful country and what makes us unique is that we are united in diversity and what the federal government should do is to tread softly, negotiate with the federal state and ensure that this peaceful harmony, co-existence could be able to be. No matter what we are, we need the north, we need the south, we need the east, we need everybody. And the politics are no politics. We should ensure that the best things work out for us. Thank you. All right. Well, I want to say thank you to you, Tamino Williams, Chris Yutamanola, both are legal practitioners and Ambrose Boke is a political analyst. Thank you so much gentlemen for being part of this conversation. We appreciate it. Thank you very much. All right. Well, we'll take a short break and when we return, we'll talk about the issues of out-of-school children and how safe are these schools for our children in 2021? Stay with us.