 Okay, so now we actually have time for some check ins and stuff I don't think we have anyone from the public unless there's someone in there in the memorial room with you. But I've just yet learning roundtable report backs from city committees, diving into the budget so we've got the public budget survey process and communications that cameras got stuff on, and then stipends for city committees we did the initial question and Jeremy's got some other materials. Um, is that that's that's it for the agenda today right okay who still plenty. Okay. Um, so she was to a check round of check ins and any. Yeah, learnings or report backs. Wrap them all up together. Um, I, I don't know I can go I started my new job and have been reading all about how and drug companies have manipulated the market and like just all about how pharmaceutical industry works and just learning a ton and it's so so messed up and there's so much happening on it like right now in just with their kind of band-aids on the bigger problem of like price caps and things like that but it's just been really interesting and obviously related to all of our work 60% of or 66% of bankruptcies in the US come from health issues and health bills so and and I'm a little frazzled because I was like one trying to work on my figure out what was wrong on my computer and might have to go get a new computer today so and I'll hand it over to Jeremy. That's okay. Hey, good morning. Well, as I was saying, a little bit earlier, I decided to truck myself into our workspace in Burlington, which I've done maybe five times this year, just needing a change of venue for my four walls at home. Looking forward to a little bit of a break next week. Yeah, I don't have too much to report. Work has been very intense lately. So kind of all my, my bandwidth, mental bandwidth has been focused on work stuff, which is good but yeah kind of cooked by the end of the day so I'm here and looking forward to our conversation this morning. Okay. I have nothing to report I've been away and in sunny Arizona for the whole week so and it was it was lovely. It was lovely visiting with my my son and family and his family and nobody gets what I'm saying before nobody gets much sleep there because there is a two year old and eight month old and in between the everybody's everybody starts waking up around four in the morning. So, so it was kind of hectic, but it was great fun. And I didn't do anything constructive all week. But I went fishing. I would say the kids, you know, get up very early I remember my daughter, she used to get up really early and I used to watch the sunrise with her. Since she stopped it long time ago. I don't remember the last time I saw sunrise so yeah, yeah. For me. I this week is the last week before a Thanksgiving break. So I'm really waiting to have next week off. I mean, it has been pretty busy for me at work that I was preparing class for my class, you know, some, I read some of the resources about what young leaders are concerned on the global issues and it is very interesting. The studies show that they are concerned about climate change racism. And one more thing that I don't remember right now, but there was nothing about social justice or anything. So I don't know if they don't know about this. So which means that we should educate them more the like future leaders, young generation about it, or they don't think that it is less important than the climate change. So I haven't decided that but it really raises some questions in my mind which I want to work on it a little bit more and to find out the answer for that. If they don't know that I think it's a better for us. So we have a chance, you know, to educate them. The other one, I don't know what to do. So if they have a kind of list in their mind, which is important and not important. Yeah, it sounds a little bit interesting for me. So that's all from me. Can I comment on that? You know, I mean from the very beginning of this committee there, there's been a, I don't know if we use say attention but certainly a problem about defining social social justice as distinct from racism. And much of the early discussions in the committee really just focused on the issue of racism and not a broader and in my view at any rate, not a broader vision of social justice because I see racism as a subset or of social justice. And I think maybe that your comment about people, young people don't see social justice as a major problem, they see racism. And I think it's, they're narrowing the field of vision. And I think that our committee actually stepped into that because a lot of what we talked about in, even in the survey was focused on racism. Not social justice, I think, across the board because there are a lot of non black folks who are also suffering social injustice, which is also systemic. And I think that, you know, part of maybe part of our job might be to broaden, you know, to try to educate people to broaden their vision about how far into our society, you know, do we have to go? Should we be looking to address large issues of social justice? Well, I always have been taught to look at social justice through the lens of a racism first lens, right? Because to me, I see it as racism is our country's biggest elephant in the room, right? And if you address the racism, other isms will follow in being addressed, you know. So like, you know, sexism and other isms can follow after because if you make it, if you make whatever policy or procedure or whatever you're trying to change system that is sort of in place to hold folks down based on race, then you are inevitably making things better for all, right? So I've always seen it, I've always been taught to address social issues or social justice issues through the lens of racism because it's relatable. People understand that. It also is the biggest fish to fry, right? So that's all always I've been taught about it. So I'm interested to listen to learn more about another viewpoint or another way to look at this. Well, if you read the book Cast, I've forgotten the author's name, she wrote under a separate song, and she actually puts racism in the category of cast and argues, is arguing the cast is really the problem. And because it, it blumps a lot of other people in with it. And she and her other examples of cast are the Hindu cast system, and also what was the other one that she used? Well, I guess the Holocaust, isn't that right? You read that book too, Shayna, right? Yeah, I still have it. I mean to give it back to you or if anyone else pass it on. Yeah, I wish I could remember the author's name, it's sort of on the tip of my tongue, but I love to read that. And the other thing is that by, by focusing on racism, we lose a lot of support from, you know, let's call them, you know, white, white folks who are also struggling and who will not, who see racism as another problem. It's not their problem. And, and, and so they're not all that sympathetic to an approach to social justice through the eyes of racism. And, but I, you know, I agree that racism is sort of right in front of us, and the most volatile issue, but I think we could make more allies if we broaden, you know, the broadened the definition. I guess one thing that I'm thinking of, and I can't speak very intelligently to it but this idea of intersectionality, where all the various isms that we're discussing do relate and interconnect and it's not as simple as, okay, with this issue we're going to fix that and go fix this issue in this one. So I think looking for those overlaps. And it's much more complicated than any one isolated issue, I think that I think I do think the class stuff is really important, especially in a place like Vermont. My partner has been doing, she, she did a kind of course that was focused on kind of cross class dialogues as an entry point into thinking about whiteness and how, you know, white supremacy kind of dominates everything about our culture. But class is a really important component of that. Yeah, I think it's tough to like pick and choose. But you do have to do meaningful work somewhere. But I guess looking for those opportunities where things kind of like intersect is what I'm interested in thinking about to talk about those names. Isabel Wilkerson takes me in my head a while to sort of grind to that. Anyway, I recommend that book. I mean, I think it's a very important and interesting way to look again at what it is that we're, we're about. This is very good discussions discussion we are having now, maybe in the future, we can add our agenda to have survey or to talk to high school students or college students about their ideas, social justice, and, you know, racism or other things we can talk, then maybe we can also do something, you know, as an advice advisory board to offer schools, right, just advise or you should do these things to educate the students or something. Because this is in the study I just shared with you, it's from World Economic Forum, and it affects current leaders, all their studies and all their conferences they bring all current important leaders together every year. And if they are talking about global leaders, which these people are kind of choosing, right, for this conferences and everything. So it shows the future of our world. Yeah, I like the idea of some more focused conversations with young people. What I would, I would kind of flip it though. And one thing you said, I'm actually more interested in learning from them than me, educating a younger person. Yeah, I understand your point. Their experience is so pivotal to like how we as older people, I'm an older person now, kind of like make space for them. So yes there's mentorship of course from some maybe experiences that we've had but I think we've got to start meeting young people where they are and getting them engaged in this kind of a work that we're doing in the committee. So I love that idea. Yeah, that's why I said we should ask them first to learn from them. Then we can just advise, right, what we can do to create a better world for them, right, not for us, but for our future generation, because they will be dealing all the problems. As you said, old people created for them. And it is not fair, right. Yeah, and so I just put in the chat to on today's MRPS school board meeting they're actually going to be talking about how they're hiring a facilitator to support their, their schools learning. And so I think we have a lot of priorities that we're working on right now, but I think maybe we could like can just connect and report back from MRPS school board members about like what, what they are doing. Yeah, I hope you don't misunderstand me I hope I'm not saying something wrong, but my daughter applied for our committee, and she was chosen, and it was announced by city meeting, and her school told her, she's in our committee, but somehow she doesn't receive anything. Oh, welcome. Here are, you know, meetings and I have been telling her, honey, you should, you should email Shayna and Cameron. So we have a representative representative in high school. So, I don't, I don't know why that was, I don't that hasn't been communicated to me that we had a new member when was this do you remember. Oh, very long time ago and it's her name is in the city, a meeting. It's YouTube, right they announced her name. Yeah, we accept. I can ask her but it's like, I don't know at least three months. I'm so sorry months ago. Yeah. And I don't I told her I don't want to, you know, do anything for you. Right. It's your responsibility so she talked to school, her school they said okay we will talk to city and your committee. I haven't heard anything. And, again, yeah, it doesn't have to be my daughter right but I know that other communities there. Student representative so we have opportunity to reach out young people. All the students in the committees they are representative representatives of city. So, we can create more impact that I think we can imagine through our students. Committee members. I'm really sorry about that. I'm going to follow up on that today. See what's going on. What is her name, Helen, again, Laura. I am great. Perfect. Thank you. Um, and just, I know I you're probably emailing about that right now Cameron but I do want to make sure you have a chance to check in before diving into our agenda as well. It's budget season so my brain is melting out of my ears. I don't really know where I am in the world or time. But staff has been taking equity really seriously in this year's planning. Like I've said it's it's been really diffused through our work plans and your tool has been very helpful in framing conversations about new budget asks. Just for a fun preview on our budget. It's, I'll get into that when we get to the budget survey process or the budget process but it's a lot. So that's really what I've been focusing on and working on. So thank you. Okay, should we review and approve the minutes from the last meeting. Thank you so much for Jeremy for taking them. And folks want to pull those up real quick. I think Michael already looked them over and made some edits and the updated one is in the most in the email that I just sent out. And we just wrapped up doing our check-ins and we're going into the minutes of reviewing minutes from the last meeting. Thanks morning everyone. I miss this was starting early. Morning. Morning. Nice to see you all. We're just doing check-ins if you do want to do a check-in or we can dive dive right into. I'll, I'll find here. Motion to approve the minutes. I motion. Second. That's quick. Awesome. Yay, process. Okay. And so diving into budget. So Cameron budget, public budget survey process and communications. If we wanted to start there. So that's not out. So I don't have any updates on that, but I do have an update on our budget. So we're in the middle of our budget Congress right now, which is where departments have been sort of told by council, what, well, the mayor really is, is where she's interested in, in looking to start the tax increase, right? So last year, we put forward a budget. We, I say staff put forward a budget that had a zero increase, right? So there was no tax increase. It was level funded across the board. We took a lot of cuts in fiscal year 21. And so we level funded those cuts. And so we didn't have a budget that had a tax increase. So we're aiming for a 4% tax increase. But I don't know where that'll end up. Obviously that's council's determination to 100%. Right. We're just trying to get in as much as we can for as little as we can. Right. That's the goals all the time. It is looking not awesome. We still do not have return to revenue that we did pre COVID. We're not sure if this is like the new normal or if this is just going to be ongoing for in recovery mode for the next few years. So a lot of what we're putting on the table will have to be council decisions. And so that that's to say that just basically coming in at base budget is going to have a pretty large increase over a nothing budget right does that. So it feels artificially inflated when we say the budget is going to be X over what it was last year, because we're just trying to return to providing services at the same levels we were before we took all those huge cuts. And so it's not it's going to be a challenging budget year. And so a lot of the programming or all of the things that we're trying to prioritize that are outside of our core services like improving anything extra. All the projects that we have all of the infrastructure stuff is going to need to go to council to for voting and prioritization we think this is where we're at right now. So I can't speak in any definite but this is your sort of where we're planning. Michael had your hand up sorry yeah go ahead interrupt me when I'm rambling. No no I was actually related to what you were saying. Is there any indication about how much the state is going to get from the infrastructure new infrastructure bill and how much of that and how that's going to be distributed. No idea yet our, we don't know. I think it's going to take a while for that to sort of shake loose and have us understand so it's very hard. Also in our planning for the future is like we acknowledge that a lot of money may be coming through the infrastructure bill right. But much like ARPA, where we think we get X amount of funds, those funds are actually very tied up in rules and regulations right so we could say we have like a million dollars coming in for ARPA but we don't really right because it only applies for certain things. So I expect that money that's coming from the infrastructure bill will be similar will be like the ARPA funds where it's tied to very specific things. And so here's hoping that all of the things we're trying to do fit into those rules. So we don't know yet are the local VLCT is Vermont League of Cities and Towns is really looking into that for us that's sort of their, their role in helping us figure out what that means. So, they'll be letting us know as soon as they do right. So all that to say really is that I am very interested to see what the budget ask for stipends will be. And then again that will really just be up to counsel what they want to include in a budget to whatever they want to increase or decrease or whatever this tax increase so sort of we're in our, we're in the thick of planning right now and I'm just not sure what what the hmm what am I thinking what are the words what the flexibility is going to be with this budget. Remind us what the timeline for it is to and the decision making because this is. Yes, let me start July 2022 right. It would yes let me pull up the timeline so that I can actually speak intelligently about this hold on. Sorry y'all there's a lot of budget emails back and forth. It's going to be surprising. I should know this off the top of my head I just don't know this. Nope, okay budget development timetable okay I found it. Alright, so we are in November now which is terrifying. So today. So the next big thing is finalizing our projected budget for department head review December 1. We would then be also trying to finalize any proposed bond items by December 1. So councils next all of their meetings through the new year will be budget focused so tonight is the last night of like regular business and then they're going to go directly into just like finance and budget for basically now on. The CIP committees are meeting to discuss capital improvements. Let's see what else we got the finalizing the budget for council consideration will be December 3. And then all of the following council meetings will be budget related the first one in December will be the city manager's budget presentation, which is basically where we go over. Staff has come up with, please tell us what your thoughts are, and what your priorities are a council. And then, sorry. No, I thought you were that was the pro presentation, keep going. Oh no there's it's a long, long process. Then in January we'll have our public hearings on bonds if that's necessary. Then we will have the community fund will be weighing in on their budget allocations in January. And then our annual meeting day is March 1. And that's when the budget is voted on. I was going to say it was so for community fund board. There they said they're anticipating level funding for that and so that's kind of what we've been working off of there. And so I think for, you know, see Jack, we were also anticipating level funding or you know, we have the funding for this year and then we're still funding for next year. And then we're making this proposal for additional funds to be spent for city for, you know, stipending city committee members. So I guess, where do those still seem right and where do you anticipate some of these budget cuts that you're, you know, discussing and yeah, where, where do you where do you see some of, are you going to ask, you know, committees to volunteer or is that going to be in staff or, yeah. So a lot of those cuts are coming from large scale projects and programming. The things that are your budget is proposed to be included to continue to be included. It's a commitment that council made and so we understand that that's a priority so that's continued in there. Funding to the homelessness task force is also included just so you all know because I think that sort of ties into things that you all care about. Your ass, let's see here. Funding requests due from commission boards and commissions. November 30th is when Kelly wants that. I don't know why I skipped that let me highlight that in the minutes. So but I think, I mean, y'all have a pretty strong proposal that can go to council council can decide to do whatever they want. Right. And they can vote to have a 7% increase. I don't know. So I just would suggest that, you know, we move into Jeremy talking about what your proposal is and I can turn that in, you know, for you. Yeah, does anyone else have any other questions or reactions or any. Yeah. It's just a lot. We're still in the dead heat of COVID, you know, it's hard to remember that I think sometimes but it's still affecting every part of everything we do. So, but I would love to hear what the proposals are Jeremy. Yeah, if we're ready I can share my thinking. So basically spend some time on considering or preparing for us to consider basically three different scenarios that we might suggest as a pilot program for offering stipends for committee volunteer work. And I used Cameron spreadsheet on that you shared worked up last time it's kind of the tool to play with numbers within those different scenarios. So, to the scenarios I really only looked at in more detail around kind of running numbers and I explain why but the three different kind of scenarios I was thinking about to kind of get, get this down to a more visible number that could function as a pilot proof of concept for this idea. So the first scenario would be some kind of an income cap for anyone who wanted to serve on a committee if they fell under a certain income level, then they would receive a stipend for their service on a committee. I ended up not going that route specifically because it's somewhat unpredictable. Because again it's dependent on well who applies. And it's also, it's a lot of administrative work, because then you need to like, not that you need to verify but there is a process you need to put in place to like that applicants and understand what their income is, which is laborious I think for everybody involved. However, one of the scenarios that I did work up I think it functions in a similar way. So then the next two scenarios and I'll show you the numbers in just a second. I'll call scenario a was limiting the stipend pilot program to a select number of committees. And in my scenario I picked five. Arbitrarily I mean, my logic was, okay, here's some committees that are really kind of in the social justice kind of category of work and maybe need more representation from folks who don't typically volunteer. And then the scenario be was settling on just a predetermined limited number of stipends that are available. That it's kind of a first come first serve approach. So let me let me just show you the numbers because it'll be a little bit like it would be like you'd have to request it, like someone would have to say I need a stipend to participate. Yes, yeah, yeah. So let me share my screen. And I think also with within these scenarios, I just settled on some parameters. They're highly, they can be highly variable depending on what we feel is a comfortable number to propose to cancel. So there's a lot of flexibility. Okay, assuming everybody can see that. Okay, let me go to option a so option a. Oh my, is that somewhat legible. Okay, the option a this is the option of just selecting a certain number of committees in which we would offer a stipend. And so in this case I picked five committees homelessness task force housing task force planning commission, our committee and the transportation infrastructure committee. And then I just ran the number so within those five committees. We've got a top number of members of members, an average number of meetings, which yields tolls in terms of total number of meetings. And then I just kept Cameron's calculation here so with those five committees if we made dollars stipends available for any and everyone in those committees. You're at 42,000. If you graduate down from 50 to 3525 20 you get, you know, the decreasing amounts. As far as stipend amount I'm having, I really feel strongly 50s kind of where we should land, as I'm thinking about what a stipend needs to do for somebody who needs it. It needs to probably be able to support them if they need childcare. Maybe needs to support them if and when transportation as a factor. There's also perhaps time off from work that might be a factor for folks. So we can we can debate that number of course but 50 I would advocate that 50 is probably where we want to land with the pilot. So, and again so you can play with this. Maybe we only want it to select three committees, instead of five I mean so you can you can fudge the numbers in this scenario. This is interesting to me I really like the idea of a pilot and I don't know why I didn't think of a pilot but I it makes sense because then we can figure out if it's actually increasing or making any changes to the makeup of the committees and if it's not then it's not useful for our community right. Yeah, yeah I think it's it's definitely as a demonstration of is this a feasible program that we would want to scale up and make more sustainable. Now let me show you option B. So option B in some ways I'm more, I'm more interested in. So in math here, and you have to excuse my non math skills, but I think I did what I wanted to do. So in this scenario, what we're doing is creating a total limited number of kind of committee memberships that have a stipend attached to them. So it's irrespective of any committee. And again it would be open kind of anyone first come first serve. So I come up with a number of total stipend positions. The way I ended up doing that, and you can certainly poke holes in this but I was thinking about just our population in Montpelier, and what the income kind of brackets are for folks. So I settled on. Well, what if the percentage of stipends we offer is the same as the percentage of our population who has an income of under $50,000 a year, and that's a household income. So in Montpelier as in 2019. 36% of our population. We have an income under $50,000 a year. So I took that percentage number of 36%. And I multiplied our total number of top committee members, which is 157 multiplied that by 36% we get 57 committee positions. And then of course, what I did was I took the average of meetings per committee which is 12 multiplied that 57 times 12, our total number of meetings is 672. And so then I ran Cameron's calculation so at that number. $50 per meeting, remember, we've got an amount of 32,006 and then so on. So that makes sense to everybody because I went through a lot of numbers. So would this be a stipend per committee that they would be able to figure out how to delegate or be like a stipend overall that people could. I just, yeah, it's a it's a single bucket of money. Okay. So I just come first serve. And again, maybe this algorithm doesn't make any sense to anyone else but what's the number right amount and I just went for that kind of broader population trend around income. But again, you could move this number up and down very quickly to adjust your final kind of bucket amount. So that's what I did. These both make a lot of sense to me. Thank you so much for doing this. I wish we had another city to act as our pilot, you know, like, you know, like, because I assume that something like 36% of it is what's going to be, you know, actually use it's not going to be the 100% of it, you know, it's probably going to be like 3550 60%. I don't know yet. And so I think that's kind of why I'm more curious about option a where it's like here's so we can say here's what the full budget's going to be like this is like, we're more likely to try to get closer to this number. But I think there's going to have to be like a lot of education and roll out and stuff in order to like this will be like maybe like, long term what that would be but maybe by starting with our pilot, we can more we can use that to kind of figure out what, what are what are what are our rates. And, and what, how is this going to impact recruitment and how is this going to impact retention and everything else and then, and, you know, it's like, maybe like start with option a for like two years, and then do end up doing option B but like of like knowing a little like having a little bit more clarity around it's $50 good is it actually 36% of people who are applying. I mean, or it's like, um, yeah, and just kind of working out some of the kinks that's kind of my like got reaction but I don't. And I don't know how they seem reality to us. Yeah. I really appreciate the work here though. Lauren, can we cheat and ask you what your thoughts are. What you would prefer to see. And so am I understanding it right that like the idea is just that a would it kind of be like first come first serve to some extent if we just set a budget number and they're like there's this much available there's this stipend like we. You know, knowing the reality of like how appointments work and stuff it's like only like a couple seats a year open up so it's not like there's going to be wholesale change so you know in terms of like everyone right now is doing it without a statement so you know it might make people better able to participate or whatever if they might take it but presumably it's like you're getting more people and he couldn't do it. And like that just like set what a second is that an amount and do it as first come first serve and see how many people are taking it. And then, and then I think, like Shayna said doing the analysis of like okay is this getting new folks in who historically participate and like that, like what's the right amount to calibrate from there based on what we're seeing, although I agree like we definitely part of it needs to be. How are we advertising and how are we like making people aware of this and like just because it's there, nobody knows about it, it's not going to be helpful and so that obviously is a big part of it so I don't think we can just like, we'll have to judge the whole like what did we do to actually do the recruitment and the promotion and and all of that to make sure that we're attracting people beyond just the stipend as a, you know, way to help people make it more feasible. But I guess like third number in it. So my question about the amount is like some committees meet for, you know, three hours and some meet for one hour once a month like is it the same stipend, no matter what the time commitment or is it up per hour thing or per month there just make it make it simple and make it $50 per meeting and people will just know that you could look at you know the commitment of the different committees as you decide what to apply for. So those are my first reactions but my overall I think just like set them out, and then we can like, use it as a pilot, adjust, look at what we can learn. I like $50. It seems like it's enough that it could be real for people to make a difference to let them participate versus like 25 or $20. Yeah, I think you raise a good point that didn't occur to me is that these numbers are quite high in the first second, third year perhaps because we only have a so so many number of positions that will be open in the first year. So I don't know if there's a, we have any data that could help us use that to factor in how many positions are maybe coming up open in the next year, and that could help us whittle the number down even further. I think it makes sense to ask for a chunk of money to be used as a pilot for this. I think that's probably all we staff would need. And then we can continue as a committee to work on what that would look like. I do think that it's important to sort of walk away with today with knowing what your total ask would be. It might could be 42,000 and then just say we'll figure it out from there, but just making sure that that like, there is a number that can be defended. Yeah. During this budget process so that we can at least include it in a package for council to consider, right. Okay. So it doesn't have to be we don't figure out like what how it was going to be used but a number to start advocating for. So the difference between the two just emphasize highlight that so our, our select committee scenario option a. If we make all of those positions stipend eligible, we would need 42,000 option be is quite a bit less because we're not tying it to specific committee numbers, but just a total percentage. The percentage of a total number of committee positions that exist. And according to this first calculation that's 33,600. So we've those are two very different numbers, but could function equally as just like the pot. And when we decide how to distribute it. I don't have enough experience to offer an opinion on if that's too much, not enough unrealistic so. Yeah, I don't have it in front of me but I think the Essex one that pass was like 35 or something you know something it was around that too so these these this seems like for that one data point in line with that. I mean the initial numbers were coming back right and it was 100,000 it was a little bit like whoa that that is more than I was expecting so. We have a lot more committees than those. Essex yeah. A lot more people engaged. I'm also wondering if we should consult with creative discourses here if this is how we should use some of that consulting money to check in with, you know, like what are the pros and cons of these different options and. I think I think we should. Yeah, if we set the money beforehand and put that forward to counsel and then figure out the proposal from there. You should probably, I mean I don't. Am I acting my own self interest right near no, but you should definitely ask for the 42 just so that you have that, and then you can go down if that's required right but I would, I would start with that higher number. Okay, this is, you know, we're going to propose a pilot project with this 42,000 but here based on our basic math. Here's what it would cost to do a pilot program in Montpelier. And then it can come down to 33 depending on what y'all decide to do, you know what I mean. I think if you just say right now here's the higher number, and then you can talk it out throughout this process right. I agree. Okay, you gotta shoot for the moon and land in the stars or whatever. What, when do we need kind of like, first, the rationale for the budget request and to the details of what we might do with a pilot program for the stipend. I think the numbers. Now, right like today, I would like to walk away from here kind of knowing where the number is, and then we can work on. And by I say we, because I'm here but y'all can work on like the, the how this roll out, whatever, so that when it does go to council in December, you'll have a good understanding of. What you're asking for and why. Yeah, so I would recommend that at your next, your next meeting. You discuss this and the hip only. So discuss stipend. I don't know implementation. And, but today walking away with a number is really great for me so I can turn that into our finance department. And I would think for council for making the case for including in the budget. It's more important that we have a really good one pager on why stipends are an important equity issue and what we hope to accomplish by offering them like that more so than here's the mechanics of how it will work. I think it could be like here's some considerations of how we plan to roll this out and we're working with creative discourse or you know like whatever that piece I think is less important than like, why should we dedicate taxpayer dollars to this. In a particular initiative is the case that will be the more important for like the December timeline, I would say, and like and knowing that you are working on a good thoughtful plan for how to roll it out. You don't need all the details yet. Yeah, that's a good call. Thank you, Lauren. Michael. Do we have any information from Essex about what has been the response I mean how many people have signed up or what it's being implemented in January. Oh, it's starting. Oh, okay. Yeah. So And that's too bad because it would help. We thought they have figured out how people apply for it and what information they need and other, you know, you know how to do taxes and stuff like that so we can learn from them for that. One thing I did know, and some of the research I was doing was the other examples I had seen of this kind of a stipend program cities were capping the total amount. I saw 500. And that was for tax purposes for cities so that didn't cross into like employee territory. That was really important. Yeah, from Essex was there like once you hit a certain threshold, then you have to do all these I do a lot of other forms and stuff so. Yeah, maybe, yeah, we should consider something like that to avoid that issue. So, Okay, so we've got on our next we're going to talk more about like the memo for the city council outreach to city committees. Other things related to the stipends. In the meantime, do we want to reach out to creative discourses or hold off on that. Okay, yeah. Jeremy, could you do that outreach just as something like like knowing a little, you know, feeling like if more of the ins and outs of it, reach out to discourses to do that. That's contacts to reach out to probably Sue. And I can share that. Yeah. Yeah, she's just kind of been our main contact. And then we're also going to talk more about VHIP. There's the readings that I've shared now a couple of times. Thank you so much Michael for sharing those. And then are we just not going to talk about the public budget communications and outreach. I'll get more information on your phone Carol, I'll get some more information on what that looks like. Beautiful. Thank you so much Cameron and and see at city council tonight and I don't know, see, see the rest of you and December 1. Thanks so much. Sorry, this ran a little bit over. Bye.