 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto here with my co-conspirator Scott Bernstein Hey now and thanks for listening. Please follow us on social media. Check out our YouTube Channel that's up and we're on Twitter Facebook Instagram We're pretty excited for today's episode. We get a lot of requests and we appreciate your feedback people asking us to have more episodes on what's going on in Philadelphia and Very interesting crime family interesting history what's going on now is pretty interesting and if you know my Intrepid colleague Scott Bernstein. He reports on Philadelphia a lot. He wrote a great book about Philadelphia Mafia Prince with he co-wrote that with crazy Phil Leonetti. Yes, sir I'm forever indebted to mr. Leonetti and Georgia. It's great. It's a great book for Allowing me to kind of make my bones. Yeah, Philadelphia reporter and From someone that's not from Philadelphia, right and I Don't think I would feel comfortable Delving in or diving in to the deep end of the pool as I have the last Seven six seven eight years If I if I didn't have that co-signing from Phil and George who gave me access to Phil and from the comments I see at least for our podcast people in Philly also say like they consider that you have street cred Even you're not a Philly guy like the the people in Philly like you're reporting even though Even though you're I know that the crime family. I'm required reading for a lot of those guys And I don't know if a lot of those guys like me Are upset with some my reporting but I think they're just upset because I filled a void and Philadelphia and the Philadelphia mafia has always been chronicled by Multiple media outlets over the years and there was a down tick in the 2010s a lot of it having to do with you know, just cutbacks in the newspaper industry because the newspaper industry has been turned upside down and resources have been depleted and Organized crime the organized crime beats that and a lot of big newspapers have gone by the wayside so there was a Vacuum That needed to be filled a void that needed to be filled about You know reporting on the day-to-day Mashinations of what's going on with that crime family and George had kind of lost interest I'm saying George George doesn't write about them right on regular basis anymore And if George was writing about them on a regular basis, I probably wouldn't be reporting as much as I do Yeah, he was pretty open about how he was losing interest. You wanted to write about different things and Well, and if you I just get kind of macro here before we get into the micro topic of today's episode But one thing that's interesting to me about Philly and you see in other places like Detroit Especially New York Boston, but there's this like rich tapestry of like you've got an active LCN family You've got this rich history of African-American organized crime in that history. We've got the pagans like ours Which are they're like the meth trade right the meth trade you An Irish crew brother brothers, Inc. I love that that the K&A case the K&A gang Which was the Irish mafia right the tenth and O gang which is the It's this kind of semi-independent Breeding ground for mobsters and then also for independent Wise guys that don't necessarily join the mafia, but our mafia adjacent And then my favorite case study in that area is South Jersey, which we've talked about Frank Vanessa the Cherry Hill Gambino's yet Sicilians down there who were affiliated with the with New York with the Gambino crime family So it's just and you have Atlantic City. You have South Jersey a Philly It's just it's just it's just a really interesting case study regionally overall and to me It's like talking about it. It's the most compelling crime family to study and to report on I don't even think It's a debate. I don't even think there's anyone that is in the in the same stratosphere as Philadelphia in terms of the The fascinating intriguing Compelling nature of studying these guys, they are Unlike any other crime family in the history of mob crime families, especially this group the last 30 years I called them the Instagram mob. Yeah, I called Joey Marlino the Instagram Don These are guys that are the guys that are running the crime family and have been running the crime family again. It they're outliers they are a group of High school elementary school junior high school Sandlot buddies that grew up on street corners of South Philly in the late 70s and early 80s and they took power in the Philadelphia mob in their early 30s late 20s and Now they're forced took it by force. They won a shooting war in the 1990s against a Sicilian mafia down named John Stampa and Took power when they were about 30 31 32 years old and it's been 30 years. They're all pushing 60 now and You would think that a group of guys like that that are Closer to collecting social security than going to their high school graduation parties Wouldn't care about being cool But that's all these guys care about yeah cool is a commodity in the Philadelphia mafia it has been for three decades and It it weaves its way into the into the politics of Bruno Scarfield crime family and how power flows vertically and horizontally and makes for just a soap opera An underworld soap opera that is like I keep on saying this is unparalleled Yeah, and yeah, they are pretty chic at least at least most of the guys. They're all fashionistas, right as opposed to like You know, we were talking with our producer ben earlier about the Sopranos and you think of like junior Soprano So that's not what these these guys do not look like junior Sopranos These aren't like the old guys with their moldies. We're ever Christopher But even Christopher Montesante and the younger generation wise guys in the Sopranos were dressing Uh, and their dress was inspired by the older guys that they were being mentored by yeah, right now There was a definitive and we're talking about underworld fashion now But there was a definitive shift in underworld fashion at least when it comes to the Italian mafia in the 1980s Right where everyone went from wearing suits and ties to in the 80s and 90s track suits became more of the day to day Yeah, fashion trends. Yeah, and uh, but That's not what the Philly guys have done the Philly guys do not wear necessarily that they're not tracksuit guys And they're not jacket and tie guys, right? They're like Uh, you know cutting edge fashion week in paris like guys No, seriously skinny jeans and cargo pants And in fitted polos, you know in lots of wild, uh pastel colors. Yeah, they're always like real tan and like good hair Like pretty like suave and they're you know, I call them the instagram mafia because a lot of these guys are on social media and they're sharing their locations and they're sharing who they're partying with and where they're partying and and uh, I've said for now 10 years It hasn't happened yet, but I've said for the last 10 years that all these photos that we've seen um Being distributed over social media are eventually going to end up in a racketeering case In front of a jury as evidence that these guys are a criminal organization not just a bunch of buddies hanging out every night. Yeah, um, but it hasn't Bit them yet these guys all went to prison In the early 2000s for a big racketeering case after they had taken The mob and Philly over by force with a winning a shooting war They were all brought in front of the front of a jury Um You know in the half decade or so after they took power They were charged with a slew of murders and a bunch of racketeering counts. They beat all the murder counts But were convicted on the racketeering charges. They all went and did anywhere between six seven years and 10 11 years in prison They were all out of prison by the 2010s and now they're all they've all been back on the scene for a decade um, and what we're going to talk about today is that the most recent um law law enforcement assault on the Bruno Scarfield crime family has been resolved um, there was a pretty significant november 2020 racketeering bust that included gambling loan sharking extortion drugs that hit a number of Made members of the Bruno Scarfield clan including Two very powerful members of the underboss Uh, handsome stevie mazone steven mazoni who they call handsome stevie and stevie's nephew via marriage who everyone is Towing as the future of the philadelphia mob the up-and-coming superstar in eastland gangland circles Dominic baby dom grande also known as teflon dom But he's not teflon anymore. No, both him and stevie are on their way to prison And I believe there was 15 co-defendants in this case that dropped 18 months ago And out of the 15, how many were made guys? There were more than just the two of them, right? At least five. Yeah, that's what I thought okay, and a giant part of this bust We need to say off the top um comes from FBI recordings of a induction ceremony which had only been achieved Really one other time in history where they bugged a new england mafia making ceremony in 1989 but this was in 2015 and We're going to go over some of the transcripts right now. They have the entire making ceremony Recorded stevie mazone was one of the people that was overseeing the making ceremony. He not only gives a Introduction speech to the new initiates. He also gives like a pep talk And claims or I shouldn't say claims. He makes clear to them that First, you know, all the money flows up, you know The money that or he tells this to his his new initiates The money that you collect the money that you make is not your money It's our money and we'll decide how much of that money you are able to to walk away with Well, that's a traditional way. Right money flows up and time immemorial. Yeah, this is a pyramid remember He's talking to his captain about that I think it was the start of the second or third season. I think it was the start of the third season And and tony's given a pep talk to his troops about the fact that they're they're having a downturn in in their Soprano family economy don't blame it on 9 11 Don't blame it on and he turns to silvio. He's like Time immemorial only two businesses have been recession proof. Right this thing of ours. Yeah, and Hollywood. Yeah So, uh stevy was caught on a bunch of wires Dom was caught on a bunch of wires stevy's arrest and eventual conviction via Guilty plea had nothing to do with drugs. I want to be very clear. My zones did not zones had nothing to do with drugs Dom's did right and Dominic as we said, he's he's the The up-and-comer the guy that everyone sees as the future boss of the Philadelphia mob. I don't think this is just a Media speculation thing I mean he has been told By the upper echelons of the Philadelphia mafia that he is being groomed To take over that how much younger is he than those guys? He's younger than us. I mean he's for he's 42 years old. Oh, wow, okay Um, there's quite a bit at least 20 years. He's 20 years younger than most of these guys. Yeah, okay and his dad was he comes from a A mafia lineage in Philadelphia that goes back a long way and his dad Salvatore grande who they all called John Wayne because he was a true mafia cowboy Or waney waney grande was one of the most lethal hitmen in the history of The east coast mafia. I won't and he was one of I won't yes, and I won't just say Philadelphia mafia Salvatore grande was a lunatic in the Early to mid 1980s for scarfo did a lot of the big hits that scarfo ordered um went to prison I don't believe he was in on a murder he I could be wrong But went to prison I don't believe he was serving a life sentence and then in prison got caught in a drug case And flipped he's now in witness protection, but it has not affected. Yeah, that's that's an interesting dynamic right there Has not affected his son Dominic from Very early on in his adult life Gravitating towards the joy Merlin knows and stevia mazones of the world and and you know being taken under their wing And groomed. I mean he was From what I hear um He was Able to show His merits In major work Not racketeering muscle work Uh murders And I'm not speaking out of school here because The prosecutors in philadelphia will tell you that they believe that dom grande was the trigger man On the dino di Pietro hit in in 2012 um, that was one of the more high profile lcn That was the last last in a long time last mob murder in philadelphia. Yeah 10 years ago And the the prosecutors and the fbi are convinced that dom grande was the shooter He was not been arrested nor indicted, but his name came up in the trial of anthony nicodemo Who was convicted of that murder anthony? I know this gets confusing for people that don't know That world there's a lot of names and a lot of connections. I think he was the driver anthony nicodemo was the driver Right anthony nicodemo was joy Merlin knows protege Before dominant grande Nicodemo was joey's protege in the 90s was joey's driver and bodyguard Uh as joey ascended Um, is he is he a lifer now that is that what nicodemo was serving 50 years 25 to 50 Wow, uh on the dino di Pietro murder which some people And I I tend to agree with them Some people say it could have been the the worst executed mob murder in the history of mob murder. Yeah, because Mr. Nicodemo was caught About 10 minutes after the mob murder in the car that he committed the mob murder in with the mob murder weapon in the car um It was very brazen and uh nicodemo got Popped for it Grande has only been mentioned uh in court documents and I believe in court Uh, I don't want I don't know if it was testimony or if it was the Opening argument in nicodemo's trial Where the prosecutors say that dom grande was the trigger man in this and they have a picture of the trigger man It's blurry But it's a guy in a hooded sweatshirt that seems to fit the physical description of dom grande Baby dom and empty nicodemo at That point in time in the late 2010s and sorry in the late 2000s early 2010s Nicodemo and grande were a tandem They weren't made yet at that point. No, they but nicodemo was definitely made. Oh, he was okay. Nicodemo was Made in the late 90s or early 2000s. What does that tell you about grande on the other hand? I believe we know for a fact based on court documents that came out from the 2011 indictment on Uncle joe legambi who was the conciliary there were uh wiretaps that People are talking about dom grande's making. I believe that was in 2010 ish So what does that tell you about in a qualitative sense that They would assign something like that to someone who would Execute it so poorly. I mean, I mean they got their target There's a lot of questions about the logistics of it. Well, I think there's a lot of questions about order of operations in that hit Whether or not it was sanctioned. Oh, oh, yeah, that's whether or not do you know d pietra Just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in the sense that he had From what I've heard had a bitter ongoing dispute with amp in Nicodemo Over at drug den or something. What was it? No? Well Okay, we're gonna go we're going down a rabbit hole here. Yeah, but I'll just we'll try to be quick with it uh, geno d pietro Got busted in a drug case um in the Mid-mid mid-mid 2000s, I think or early 2000s Cooperated in that drug case sent his cousin to prison on that drug case uh was out and about Operating to some degree It's not no one's certain if he was still doing illegal things after he had cooperated or not, but he was Living of in south Philly openly Uh, I don't know if he didn't think that people knew he had cooperated or not the guy that he cooperated on his cousin was One of the people that I'm throwing out all these names people are gonna be really confused by this His cousin found Johnny gongs casasanto dead Johnny gongs casasanto Was a rival of joy Merlinos Anthony Nicodemo Is the top suspect and Johnny gongs murder You know D. Pietro's cousin found Johnny gongs dead there's some belief that Gino D. Pietro has knowledge of the Johnny gongs hit which If you believe what the government believes would implicate Anthony Nicodemo, so they wanted to silence him But then there was also stories of Anthony Nicodemo and Gino D. Pietro getting into a heated verbal altercation in early fall of 2012 At a at a backdoor casino that Anthony Nicodemo ran and Was trying to throw out uh D. Pietro from the casino and D. Pietro cursed Nicodemo allegedly and uh So this kind of personal beef more so than so nobody knows for sure sanctioned by the organization There's been I've heard stuff that there was a meeting the night before D. Pietro was killed Or that there was uh That D. Pietro or that Stevie Mazzone Dom Grande and Anthony Nicodemo were all in the same place the night before D. Pietro got killed now there are people that are saying that At that time when Mazzone Nicodemo and Grande were all in the same location that they were That part of that Reason for them all being together the night before D. Pietro was killed was for them to get some type of final sign off Or sanctioning during Merlino who doesn't live in Philadelphia anymore Has been living in florida since he got since he got out of prison in 2011 Made his first return back to Philadelphia in the weeks before D. Pietro got killed. So there are some people that speculate that Merlino Put the hit into motion. Oh he when he came into town Nicodemo needed Merlino sign off Again, this is all speculation Um, but Dom Grande fits kind of squarely into that speculation um but he he got caught In this record hearing case, uh They identified him as a capo he's intercepted on wires talking about selling drugs and pressing Oxy cotton pills and I mean, we've heard this a million times on on wiretaps about A gangster that's dealing drugs that's warning other gangsters that are dealing drugs about what a Hard pinch a drug pinch is about how like it ain't a slap on the wrist and how you have to be careful The irony is that they're being recorded telling someone. Yeah, the feds are already Further for for both for Grandin. Uh, well a lot of them originated the belief is that uh Anthony Perceano, I guess all the I don't like throwing all these names out because even though I can keep all this straight I know that everybody that's listening to this is just Lost in all these names but Anthony Perceano is a member of the Philadelphia mafia that was Introduced into the family by Dom Grande that turned out to be wired up I see and Perceano was going around for a couple years wired for sound and Perceano was the person that Recorded his own making ceremony and by the way some audience members have suggested and I think it's a great idea that we have a website where With each episode there's like Some information about some of these guys so that they can keep it straight because it is confusing and I would say that long term that is something we would like to do but Not to get into the bore people, but you know right now very much. This is still a DIY operation So it gets down to resources and manpower like like who's going to do that? I think that's a great idea But uh, you know who would manage that site and and upload that kind of data But uh, at some point we would like to do that because I agree with you. It does get You know With Dom grande though, I think where this all started 10 minutes ago before I went down this rabbit hole was that Dom grande from what I've been told from people that I believe Uh, have firsthand knowledge of what what what they are telling me The Dom grande although he might not have made his bones in the sense of shooting somebody like he might have in 2012 with a deep Pietro that Dom grande in his early 20s was involved in Some capacity in at least one murder conspiracy Uh, so, you know, you can do the math on that as anyone that knows the The roster of philadelphia mob hits there was a handful between 99 and 2005 or six And grande got his button in 10 or 11 Uh, he already had his button if you again if you boom Sorry Whoa, I just hit the microphone if you believe, uh, the government He he uh had his button before The deep pietro hit if he took place if he took part in the deep pietro hit The government believes this information is in the affidavit. Where where does this Well, what what information like the like the speculation that he's involved in these murder conspiracies Well, the deep like I said the deep pietro hit. It's not speculation. It's been said in open court an open court That's the deep pietro hit that took place in 2012 Now I've been told by people that I believe have firsthand knowledge that grande ingratiated himself with the Upper echelon of the philadelphia mafia The joy millinos in the steamer zones of the world by taking part in murder conspiracies in When he was in his 20s So it would have been the murders that occurred in philadelphia between let's say 99 and 2005 So that's not documented. That's just what you've getting sources that i've underworld sources or whatever. Yes so and All of those murders that took place in the early 2000s Anthony nicodemos a suspect in and those are so i've got so i've got they're all insult So if grande was nicodemos right hand In the late 2010s and early 2000 Just god horrible this the late 2000s and early 2010s And nicodemos used him on a hit in 2012 You know it shows that the the bond between them in my opinion at least the trust factor Uh probably goes back 10 years to when baby dom was 2021 22 years old and again what i was told Was that he doesn't mean that he was a trigger man. I'm not saying he was a trigger man You got people have to understand the way that a mob murder takes place There could be 12 people involved in the conspiracy only one person pulls the trigger But if you were involved in the conspiracy, you know in for a penny in for a pound So all of these hits that took place in the in the early 2000s long john martirano uh johnny gongs um Ronnie churchy was 99 Uh the martirano that what was um, but what i'm saying is the martirano hit long john martirano On a og one of the old time Philadelphia mobsters from the 60s and 70s went to prison in the 80s Came out of prison in the late 90s early 2000s and did not get in line With the marlino without okay didn't not get in line with the marlino crew was talking There was rumors that he wanted to Go to war with them to take over what they had uh, so they they hit him in the afternoon, but there were Again, yeah, people have to understand The meticulous if you're if you're a good gangster you're a good mobster. You're not just someone that's Going off half cocked the way a mob hit is planned especially A mob hit that involves cars You have multiple vehicles. You have crash cars. You have backup cars. You have people that are monitoring police radios So that's why the dph or thing doesn't seem on brand. It's very it's very Yes, I can't figure I can't figure out what's up with that. So again, what I was told was that One of these jobs that That is a a non trigger man job Whether it be you're you're you're in a car. It's supposed to act as a blocker Whether it means that you know, again, you're monitoring a police radio you're Calling someone to get someone to a certain location at a certain time I Was told that Dom grande Was involved in a Philadelphia mob conspiracy When he was very young Again, 21 22 years old and that would have been either Ronnie Turkey Long John, Monterano Uh, Marconi, I'm blinking on the guy's name, uh, Manus Calco Uh And uh and Johnny gongs because Casasanto Moderano is a really intriguing case today. No, that's that's goes back farther than what we're gonna, you know, we're talking about today But uh really a pioneer in the crystal meth Well, the the alliance between the mafia the bikers and and the blacks and the blacks in the drug trade Yeah, he was really ahead of his time. I mean like I think we've talked about this before like The way I joke about it is he he was he was a meth kingpin before meth was cool Right But um, so there's fifth and we're all over on this up. We're all over the place in this episode So this case hit november of 2020 Uh as of last week it has now been adjudicated Uh dom grande pled out last month. He's gonna end up doing I think he's he's an eight year sentence. He'll probably end up doing six years He's never done time before I think it's a pretty good deal for him. Um, he was looking at 20 And uh, you know dom grande just like, you know, these guys are these guys are Just like a movie star or an athlete Or a rapper they're human beings, you know, they put their shoes on one foot at a time You know dom grande just got married just had a kid Uh, I'm sure the last thing he wants to do Uh at the end of the summer is turn himself into the federal bureau of prisons and go away for the next six years But you know, it's it goes with the territory Stevie Mazzone has done prison time before he pled out a couple weeks ago and was sentenced on friday to five years he'll probably do four of the five and um This is his second time going to federal prison. He served nine years I believe between 2000 and 2009 uh for the for his racketeering case in the 2000s and um How old is he? Stevie Mazzone is 58 So most of the guys that are running the family right now are Joey Merlino contemporaries guys between the ages of 58 and 62 Was Mazzone. What was his pedigree? Was he Someone I know so I've never um, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find this out, but I've never Uh deep dive Stevie enough to know where his family lineage leads Um, but he's been with that Merlino crew since day one um I don't believe Stevie's dad was a gangster like Joey's dad or george's uncle uh a lot of these guys Have you know fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers that were mob guys. Yeah, they grew up in that Stevie Mazzone didn't Stevie Mazzone though was mentored by a South Philly mob guy under the Scarfo regime Uh named Louis DeLuca. They called Louis Irish And was one of the first murders Uh that the Merlino crew carried out in their Uh Climb up the food chain to become the bosses of the Philadelphia mafia I I don't believe Stevie was involved in murdering his mentor But Stevie's crew DeLuca was with stand he aligned with stanfo. Is that why he got uh, I don't know if he was aligning with stanfo or simply refusing to get in line behind Merlino and and uh his camp So uh Stevie Mazzone He was always kind of the number three or four guy It was it was Joey and then Joey's best friend at that time Mikey Chang Mikey Changolini And when Mikey Chang was killed in the summer of 93 Stevie Mazzone kind of uh Ascended up a a notch or two In the Philadelphia mob pecking order because there was no longer Mikey Chang So Mikey Chang would have been the underboss if he was alive when Merlino took control of that family that was the Biggest target that stanfo took out right when you say it was Mikey Chang That was his biggest obviously he lost the war but but he did that was the biggest guy Yeah, and he wounded Merlino in that attack. Oh, that's right. Yeah, I remember that Merlino Got yeah, I got hit in the butt. Yeah, I remember but but uh Mikey Chang died in his arms Yeah, that that afternoon in uh august of 93 And like again when we're talking about this family, it's It's it's like it's shakespearian. It's a soap opera. It's it's like good fellas and the godfather and jersey shore and um You know uh new jack city, you know kind of all rolled off rolled up into into one real life Story, they're extremely violent more so than probably any other crime family in the country Maybe not the last 10 years, but like between what that time Bruno was killed in what 79 or 80 80 I mean for like the next what 30 years 25 years 20 just just a lot of bodies dry I mean it just took a long time to stabilize. Yes, that's situation and with what was going on in the 90s With the changolines again more names to digest um You and this is as shakespearian as it gets you had three brothers that were all aligned with Opposite factions You had a dad who was in prison. Yeah, you had that could be a movie. Yeah, you had a dad who was in prison You had a middle brother That was in prison that was calling His older and his younger brother from prison saying Please pump the brakes. I will be home in a year and I will sort this all out Like there's no need for you to kill each other. Yeah, because this isn't good for anybody This isn't good for me the brother that's in prison. It ain't good for dad One brother was excited with joey and one brother sided with stanfa, right? Right and uh They both were actively trying to kill each other and they one was killed and the other one was maimed where he's uh Disabled his whole life that was stanfa's guy. Yeah, so so joey chang's he's still alive. Yeah, he's still alive but he's As his brother johnny chang was caught on a wire saying Yeah, my brother mike. He's in a box and my other brother joey can't walk and chew gum at the same time Yeah, because of the fact that he he was he was uh shot, uh, you know 15 times in a in a early morning Um Luncheon luncheonette diner attack that's the one caught on surveillance caught on yeah the first mafia hit ever caught on videotape, right? so Yeah, uh steve mazone after uh mikey chang was killed Took the space kind of that mikey chang had as joey's second in charge So but if mikey chang had been alive a year later when the war Was over with i'm sure mikey chang and some people say mikey chang would have been the boss joey would have been under boss Um that mikey chang actually was more of the driving force in that war than joey was wow Either way joey became the boss and steve became the under boss and steve's been the under boss Uh now you know going on 25 30 years so what let me ask you about like like what happens on the streets now because you have You have joey who's sort of this boss in sort of this absentee boss You got the under boss going to prison. You got you got one of the hot shot captains going to prison What does that what does that mean for the streets now? Is it is it standard operating procedure? They have enough guys on the street enough enough heat enough muscle to keep things in order i mean the philadelphia family right now in 2022 Is one of the healthier families in terms of numbers ironically after what we just like yeah for the last 25 Outside of you know take new york city and and put it into the corner for a second But we're talking about families that aren't in new york city philadelphia has got at least 40 guys right now that are You know 40 to 50 guys that are made and on the street. Wow And so that's that's a lot of guys Yeah, i mean i didn't realize that and you have two separate factions and then within one of those factions It is split so it's really kind of three separate groups here. You have the merlino group you have Which is the uh modern day group and then you have this the old scarfo group Yeah, which were the guys that came up in the 80s that went to prison before Merlino and his crew took over That all came out at the same time that merlino and his crew were coming out So you got joey and his group then you got phil narducci and his group Which is allegedly aligned with the 10th and oh guys And then from that scarfo group you have two Subfactions you got the narducci group and then you got the the punjatory group joey punj and his guys, um, which are more at this point from what i understand all, uh Um quasi legitimate real estate flip house flipping Um, i've heard joey punj has made a lot of money since he got out of prison legitimately Um in the real estate market, so they're not they're not as active in the in the streets I just know that there are there are three separate factions in the philadelphia mafia right now There are roughly 50 got 40 to 50 made guys that are on the street right now now they're not all You know one big happy family And I think there it's it's a very unique Structure right now, you know the joey group operates as one organization but you know if any money is coming from The narducci camp or the punjatory camp Towards the joey camp it's because of stevie it ain't because of joey But narducci can't stand joey. Yeah, that's that's stevie's the pa stevie's the politician They call him handsome stevie if you've ever seen the picture of the guy he's got you know, he looks like a model He looks like an actor very very good looking guy um a lot of swagger um Fall dark in hand, so right a lot of swagger and um He's very well liked across multiple Uh clicks Well, you need a guy like that to keep things functional and buffers buffers for joey and one of the you know traditional criminological definitions of of a mafia group is Being able to have a monopoly and so if if you've got two crews of italian-american gangsters who are made guys who aren't kicking up to the boss Then you that's a real problem conceptually like whether or not this is like an existence We have a one one but one family, you know, but detroit or detroit man Philadelphia is such an outlier. There's such a unicorn and that's what I think I think I started this conversation by saying that You have a family that split into three different groups and a boss that doesn't live in the city that his crime family resides in yeah, so it's it's very very odd and unique although like um Ben's got our our producer has a uh, yeah Yeah, query go ahead just for context. How many made guys are in detroit right now in detroit? You probably have 20 to 25 made guys if that Chicago I'm guessing you're at 50 um Philadelphia you're probably at 40 to 50, but again, it's they're they're factored off new england probably has 30 and that's between uh, massachusetts Rhode Island main new hampshire uh, new jersey the decalbacontes probably have 30 Um, but other than that there are no other crime families that or buffalo probably has 30 So probably anywhere the modern-day crime family that's active right now probably has anywhere between 25 and 75 guys if you're not in new york or chicago if you're in new york Most of the families have you know in the triple faders still yeah made Yeah in new york right now the I think the the genovese and The columbos I believe both have 200 made guys Gambino lukezi and um Uh Gambino Have like 100 to 150 wait where do you think the high-end ones are again? I think genovese and columbos with columbos. I thought columbos was like Maybe I think columbos on the maybe I'm messing. They're like a hundred or less Oh, I could be I could be turning it around genovese. I think is usually they have 200 Yeah, they're usually the beef have the most and the gambino is usually right after them Um, and the and the bananas are kind of they fluctuate because in new york right now every family has between 100 and 200 Yeah, I would say the the bigger families are pushing Towards 200 maybe a little bit over and the smaller families are under under 150 to 100 Right, which by the way and we we have an episode you can check this out if you haven't heard yet on today's american mafia families Where we talk about this, but just for ben Or others asking thinking about this That's just made guys that doesn't include associates too So that like if you have genovese if you have 200 made guys that could be a thousand associates With in addition to so that's a lot of any of other cities that used to have organizations like Milwaukee and st. Louis And cleveland that might have made guys that are still alive That are living in those cities, but there's no there's no organization and the city might have Four may guys five may guys kansas city I guess i'm guessing is is kind of in that middle ground where they're not really a family, but they're not Inactive either I'm guessing that same that kansas city probably has five to ten made guys With a bunch of other associates and they're like a a glorified crew as carmen In the sopranos right but official like uh mafia protocol and like terms of politically is Another borgada will still recognize kansas city as as long as even Just one guy is is alive as a made guy the boss The boss in the underboss of kansas city are recognized and identified. Yes, johnny joe sorrentino and las vegas pete simone Right and they're guys that have been made for 30 40 years Yeah, so they would still be recognized now how actively are right? That's a different discussion But they would still be recognized by another family as uh is legit, you know um But uh, hold on ben wants to chime in. I know I apologize. No, no never apologize ben You're the voice of the of the everyman. Yes You keep us tethered because I i'm going on i'm talking about 57 people with 57 different nicknames Everybody's just swimming right now encyclopedia and uh mafia like uh the great scott bernstein But I was gonna ask um a lot of these uh made guys are some of a by age in the 20s Are they all collecting medicare right now? Uh, I would say that the majority of them are over 50 60 years old where here across the american mafia landscape Um, I think new york you might have some younger guys, but that's uh, there might be some younger guys but I would say if if You know the majority of the made guys in america right now are over 50 are the books open sit In theory. Yeah Um, but also maybe 20% are guys that are under 50 and and remember also like another example of philly being anomalous is um Traditionally like if you say like oh all these guys are 50 or 60 You know if you're thinking from the perspective of a street gang or something you're thinking boy These are these are a bunch of old fucks, but that's the way the mafia has always been designed I mean you don't reach your peak until you're 80 you become boss at 80 I mean like like a lot of guys in even in new york even guys in their 40s don't necessarily have their button yet Like like that's the point is like it's it's the highest Honor in that world that you can receive and they don't just hand them out to every Look at Dom groundy right now. He's only 42 and in that world they call him baby. Yeah, that's young That's really young. No, that's really for that world. That's really he's considered a baby Joey Merlino took took over the crime family was 35 He was seven years younger than Dom is right now. And that's what I mean by like an outlier like or three you might even have been 32 Officially he was 35 by the time Ralph was out of the picture But initially when he took over that family or was in the process of taking over that crime I'm used 32 years old for for a group of guys that were in their 20s and 30s to take over a whole crime family Is really unprecedented and then to keep it for the last 30 years because anywhere else Especially in New York, but I would say almost anywhere else. They would have gotten rolled over They would they would they would have been killed like I mean, well, they averted murder they averted a bunch of murder attempts There was a a plan in in 2001 that was being hatched That very easily could have gone off without a hitch if an indictment had enough of of of smack down in the spring of 2000 but you know Pete Caprio the the Coppo of Jersey had made arrangements with the five families to kill Joey was in prison at that point. His guys had not gone yet, but there had been a plan that was all Blueprinted out. It was all ready to be done. Stevie Mazzone, Georgie Borghese and Joe Legambi were all going to be killed Pete Caprio was going to take charge of the Philadelphia mafia from Newark He had the blessing of the five families And he was going to use Marty Angeline I don't know Marty Angeline and knew that he was going to be used because if he did that shows that he was in on the conspiracy and the plan was to use Marty Angeline who was another one of these Joey loyalists who would have been spared As a way as a as an olive branch to the rest of the Joey loyalists clever was left Yeah, and Marty was gonna It was gonna be the conciliary under this plan So I mean these guys Yes, it's There's a lot of luck That played into where they are right now and Joey talks to people Is famous for saying that he's got the devil on his shoulder looking out for him He's the luckiest human being in the history of the mafia This guy should be either in prison doing life for multiple murders of the the FBI has tried to Nail him for or should be dead. He's a verdict two dozen assassination attempts Now, what do you say to what do you say to Roberto? You want to jump on the mic with us or no? He's Roberto's in studio Well, Roberto over some of these wiretaps we used to go to South Jersey when we were younger and In real time and when the Merlino-Stanford war was happening. I don't know if you remember that we'd read in the newspapers the jersey newspapers, um, these guys are for people that aren't from Philadelphia that are that are listening to this or watching this That that might not have a point of reference The press even now with with the media not covering them as much as they did at one point The mobsters in Philadelphia now 10 years ago 20 years ago 50 years ago probably 10 years from now 20 years from now are covered as if they're professional athletes They're covered by the media as if they're the Phillies or the Eagles or the 76ers Everybody in Philadelphia, even if you don't pay attention to the mafia You know who Joe Merlino is You know who Joe Legambi is and you know who handsome steve mazones Yeah, and you probably know if you're someone that's in their 20s right now. I'm pretty sure you know who Dom Grande is So what do you say to the people that That say there is no mafia in Philadelphia. Who says that? You know who says that? Anyone who would say that doesn't have You know, it doesn't really have any basis for that if if you're someone that Wants to believe Neighborhood propaganda if you're someone who lives in South Philly And it's friends with these are friends with a lot of these guys and these guys relatives Or are these guys brothers and sons and nephews and they want to put out just like we have here in Detroit You know from though from those the those prominent mob families that like to Put out this narrative that yeah jack toko allegedly did time in prison, right? That these are all you know, you can't prove that that's a legend These are all benevolent community leaders that nobody has any Way to show where they get their income from none of these guys work legitimate jobs But they all drive a hundred thousand dollar cars They all wear jewelry that cost about a half million dollars on their wrist and on their neck when they go out They all live in mansions and all go back and forth from the jersey shore into florida None of them have real jobs So you you you do the math being unfairly targeted by the media Put it this way and I won't make any claims or anything I'll just say this that when I was a kid and and jimmy can attest to this was I won't say when my dad worked at a car dealership, okay So some you know when I was old enough to drive myself I'd sometimes I'd go there to just you know, I need something fixed on the car or something you know It was like it was in the body shop of the car dealership My dad would be the only guy there with a three-piece suit Cold jewelry and diamonds Yeah He was better dressed than the owner But you literally have people and there's someone that I know where I don't want to mention But we're both You know talking about this person now that wants to sit there and try to make an argument that um because They're told by people in south philly that there's no mob. That means that there's no mob. Yeah, um And I did what a great rhetoric. I mean, that's what you want. That's that you know what I mean Well, of course, they're gonna tell you there's no mob. Yeah, you don't want john goddy on the cover of the time Newsweek or time or whatever, you know, that's the traditional way This would be low key not philly but screwed everything up So you you tell me what joey you tell me in florida right now joy Merlino He doesn't have a job in florida And he's driving a um a Bentley Uh, so you you tell me how he's financing that Is it is it envelopes coming up from philadelphia? You know if i'm a betty man I'm guessing that that everyone in philadelphia is sending something to joy Merlino down in florida on a regular basis He's a professional gambler right jackie jackie. He's probably really good at fandall. That's all right. I'm saying a professional gambler fantasy He is a professional gambler. This guy goes through $50,000 on a weekend. Yeah So what about the other propaganda from the same people that say that there's no mob and philly that that To the extent there is which there isn't before so we have wire we have wiretaps Proving that there was a mafia induction ceremony seven years ago that was coordinated oversaw and um Administrated by all of joy Merlino's closest friends. Yeah, I can't help But I want I know you know that that's what they'll say. Yeah, the families because that's the same thing at the trite Like I want to go through some of the goddamn FBI. I can't believe these wiretaps. I can't believe them Which are just gold before we wrap up. I want to go over some of these wiretaps Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, we're close to wrapping up So, um We know that You're not on the wiretaps. Don't worry We know that I don't have anything The acting boss or the street boss. I should say the street boss. Mikey Lancelotti was the um Was the was the person that conducted The making ceremony and he was assisted by steve mazzone as the underboss and joe legambi as the concillary and it's it's um It's interesting the way they speak and there's a lot of common threads through many of these wired tap transcripts that have Been made public since the case came down in 2020 about them talking about Philadelphia being the only ballgame in town. I mean the philadelphia mob being the only ballgame in town Hey, it's us and it's nobody else and you're either with us or you're against us Um, and again, this is clear as day. So this is transcripts of a guy being made. Yes Wow. Now, do you know where this was taking place? Yeah, so the the making ceremony took place at a residence in south philadelphia um october 16 2015 They then went and had a celebratory dinner uh at One of their friends restaurants angelo Lots his restaurant kinship consiglieri and collinwood new jersey and the the person that was wired for sound anthony persiano wore the wire at the making ceremony and then wore the wire at the the celebration afterwards, which was a party that the administration threw for the new initiates can't they check for that shit like like i mean i don't want to sound You mean if you're the philadelphia mob, why are you inducting people that have clothes on? Yeah, no i take their coat like no they do that in new york Yeah, that's what i'm saying like you get made now in a bathrobe. That's what i'm saying or or like even just doing like uh You know like when you watch, uh, yeah, you watch like, uh Sons of anarchy, maybe they make you strip down and put on a you know in your boxer shorts I mean, I know this is hollywood, but even on sons of anarchy every time they would have church They would want have a wand look for any kind of like electronic transmissions like Before they start talking business So i'm just it just seems like kind of reckless these days to just let these guys all well They clearly believed that everybody that was in on this stand-up guy could be trusted. Yeah, of course Anthony persiano, who was the guy that was wearing the wire He would he has he had already been made he was made by the lukezis This was his second making ceremony. So if you're the philadelphia mob you feel like There's nobody that's out of the guys that we're bringing in right now There's nobody more secure than persiano the lukezis must have vetted him when they made him five years ago So when you transfer families, you have to undergo another initiation He did I don't know if you have today. We're no one vows over here Yeah, I mean like because it's in the tree. I don't have it in front of me But one of the transcripts that was released Uh was of them saying hey, anthony, we know that you've done this before but you got to do it again for us That's interesting because you know that happens transfers happen. Yeah, it's not common But it does happen scar foe june or scar foe sun right transferred to the lukezis the other opposite direction But no, but he didn't transfer the lukezis He well he did but he got made by the lukezis. He wasn't made of oh really junior was not made. Oh, okay That's interesting. I didn't know that. Okay. Um, so Mikey lance who and you Again, we're all over here. We're all over the place here, uh, but you asked me You know, is there a a stable structure in place to keep the family going right right so Mikey lance is is has never been busted You can again you want to do the math on that? Mikey lance has never been busted He is the street boss. So he's still around and then joe legambi is the conciliary the elder statesman Who was acting boss for 20 years? So you have two guys that are very capable of of keeping the crime family afloat and then next year you have Legambi's former underboss joe mousy mass massamino coming out of prison So there's plenty of guys who carry a lot of weight Mike Mike lance a lot. He says, um You'll get you'll get introduced to everybody, but I want to be clear. We're one family This is the only flag around. This is it. This is philly. That's it And then he he turns it over to uh legambi says joe. Do you want to say anything? After he said that and then legambi who was 82 years old and as the he's the elder statesman the one that really Got the family back on track after all of that Bloodshed in the 90s. Um, he said, uh, we're all one family now. No disputes No disputes should come from he said we're all in the family now We're all one no disputes should come between none of us And then steve mouson says nobody can break this chain And then legambi says anybody comes between us. It's on them We're all together one familia say it Familiar and then everybody in unison says la familia Um, and I I know what when when steve mouson says nobody breaks this chain I'm 99% sure these guys when these when this conversation is taking place. They're all holding hands um that is a Traditional way to start and end a making ceremony not every family does it But it seems like the philadelphia guys do it and detroit I know they do it where you start the the guys that aren't being Or the guys that are not initiated yet stand outside the circle at the beginning and everyone holds hands And then when the guys are initiated at the end They're included into the circle and they all hold hands and and and the the hand That you hold is the bond that you are not supposed to break Do they burn the saint and all that still well, they do that in the that's during the making ceremony I'm talking about to start the making ceremony like before anybody has their finger pricked and any saint card is burned everyone in the room gets together and they get in a circle and hold hands and some type of Sicilian statement or prayers Is given and then they hold the making ceremony Then at the end of the making ceremony before they go off and have their celebratory dinner They all get into a circle again and hold hands now the guys that were initiated who weren't part of that circle to start Are then included into the circle. So now you're you've been made you've been inducted now you can be a part of the chain So that's why he says nobody break this chain. I'm I'm 99% sure when he's saying that all those guys are holding that's a literal so Ben and Roberto I was talking to someone who's Intimately familiar with the bonano crime family and hopefully we'll have this person on our show soon but He told me that because of the risk that the bonanos don't even have the ceremony anymore Like they don't even go through the They just tell you that you're made now because Exactly what's got like it. Well, you know what it reminds me remember phil remember. What is he saying? There's a problem. So he's like hey, they don't even do it. They don't do it right anymore He says they don't even do the and he's like look no sword on the table Right, right. He goes he goes either this He just means something It's like when you know you had to start checking out your own groceries. What the hell's going on here Yeah, yeah, but I've he told me that the bananas They don't they don't have the uh the ceremony anymore because they don't want Because of what happened in new england and what happened in I told you they're a glorified crew Right, I want to I want to read one more transcript and that's a transcript where Stevie Mazzone again is caught Speaking very candidly and and I'm going to get what exactly he says but the gist of it is We're all gangsters and we know we're gangsters And it's okay to be a gangster and no see he literally says no suckers going to take that from us um So, you know He was very open Except legitimate business like online gambling You know everything else that's getting you know that you can't shake down any, you know small time Right, yeah, some of those guys have their hands in that though, too the the so the so-called legitimate So um and porn online porn they got their hands in so they figure out ways to get To get there. I you know as long as I don't have to pay for it anymore So this this is the uh, this is the the the snippet from the transcript where they tell Anthony persiano that I know you've been made before but you got to do it again And this is uh, michael ancelotti saying anthony. I know you went through this already. Okay, we got it We but we got to make it official with this family. You understand that? um, he said that uh, uh persiano before he pricked his finger and then um After the ceremony was completed the five initiates became They tied they it's what what I just described. There's an actual term for what I'm looking at. It's in the court document It's called tying in So you're not a part of that hand-holding circle to start the the evening But at the end of the evening as they are you really taken with this, uh, Yeah, I mean, I think it's fascinating to no No, I think it is fascinating. Yeah, they actually hold hands. No, I know but we've spent a lot of time talking about it Um, so I'm just telling you that it's in the transcript that they're it's called tying in joining hands as one in a circle and saying La Familia in unison Let me let me ask you something else that it's going to push your buttons So the the same people that say that there is no mafia in Philadelphia Also say that the philadelphia Mafia, even though it doesn't exist that they don't deal drugs. How would you respond to that? They all deal Everyone deals especially on the recent. So this is this was mizone ending the quote-unquote tie-in He said, okay. You got it. No side deals. None of that always remember to touch base got it good then. Okay. Let's go get things to eat He was hungry. Yeah, yeah, hold on. I'm gonna find the one where um He says we're gangsters How long did the ceremony last in total? Do you know? Probably an hour probably an hour Now do they give the code of omerta? You can't mess with anybody's wife, right? You can't hit a maid guy. You're supposed to Are they listing that in this? Are they doing that in these modern day? Or uh, and this yeah, this family becomes in this philadelphia initiation. Yeah, okay If you listen to our episode we did with michael frenzies. He goes over the whole He describes the whole thing and it's it's what you're describing. It's the old school way I but that's in new york back in the day. I don't know You know, I don't know what philly here. It is here. It is now. They just send you an email This is this is this is uh, this was stevie And then another thing that was uh, very important to him in this pep talk was His desire to reclaim atlantic city. Oh, right. Yeah, I noticed that Telling all the new initiates that we need to get a hold back on atlantic city. We need to plan a new flag there Um, that's what I want. That's what we have to get. That's what he says Yeah, I thought that was really interesting in your reporting when I saw that and then he says Um, which that goes back to leonetti and scarfo. That was their stronghold, right? Yes back in the day They will the philadelphia mob had control of atlantic city from when they legalized gambling in the mid 70s All the way to when scarfo and leonetti went down in the late 80s. Yeah, and that was a huge cash con for them So this is stevie saying, um, I don't want nobody glomming on to our fucking shit You know what I mean? You hear what i'm saying. We we're still street guys. Let's face it. We're fucking gangsters I'm not going to let some sucker take that That was stevie in 2015 talking to the troops talking to the new troops um, and then this is dom grande then saying to some of these new initiates about Getting back into atlantic city. We've got our hooks in them now. They either pay or they get the fuck out And then him talking about the drugs that he can move he says I can move thousands of them You know, these kids sell them for 20 bucks a piece He's talking about, uh, you know oxycutons. So do you think that, uh, Like saying like we're not going to let suckers take it Do you think that he's implying that talking about non-italian gangsters that are like trying to get any I think he's talking about anybody that's not made or not working for that organization Okay, that we control all vice. Yeah, that's interesting. That's pretty old school Yeah, because you look now a lot of the families. It's like live and let live like I mean detroit. I mean they You know, that's it's real different now. I mean You know, they pretty much coexist peacefully with all sorts of other organizations So we've we've given you an update on the bruno scarf for crime family in, uh, philadelphia 15 indicted in the 2020 case 14 convicted They're all headed into prison the only one that wasn't indicted or sorry the only one that was not convicted was kenny arabia Who was who died before he was able to have his case adjudicated? He was one of steve's main enforcers kind of like his, um Um, I think they call it I forgot the term they use but it's a it's a soldier that only that reports to administrator Oh, yeah, he's not part of a crew. So he's not part of a crew, but he's like his Official yeah, I've heard of that happening sometimes. Yeah, so that was like steve's guy. Yeah And kenny arabia died Natural causes but everybody was convicted Everyone's going to be reporting to prison in the next couple months Um, steve will see in about four years dom will see in about six or seven Uh, like you said, that's not bad for that world. And the last thing I'll say is with dom grande If it sucks you're 42 years old You have a beautiful new wife and a beautiful brand new baby and you got to go do six years Or six seven years in prison, but I'll tell you this dom grande if he Continues to keep his mouth shut And he isn't nailed but any of these potential murder cases that they could get him in while he's locked up it's 2022 By 2030 The start of the next decade Dom grande will be a free man And most likely he will be the boss of the philadelphia mafia He'll be the if not the godfather. He'll be the acting boss or the street boss So six years for him It's right. That's the price that you're paying to become the next Become the next shot. Yeah. What's that? What's that? Who says that? Well, I'll tell you steve mizone could do for steve mizone could do four years standing on his head That's nothing to steve. No, I would think so. Yeah Now I'm you're sick. You're 58 years old. You don't want to go away for four years Of course. Nobody ever want yeah, but steve mizone. That's easy time for him He'll go into a federal prison. He'll be treated like a king. Yeah, and so will dom grande But I think it's a little harder for someone like grande who's never done time before He's in his early 40s. He has a brand new family steve Has grandkids now, I think or it's close to having grandkids now. Yeah, so Uh, this was fun. I love talking about philadelphia Uh, we'll we'll give you more updates. Um, you know, if there's any breaking news, it's coming out of philly Last last last thing i'll say jordan marlino is allegedly back in town this month He's been at the jersey shore the last couple weekends. Oh interesting should be making his uh face scenes in south philly Sooner than later. Is he allowed to be in philly as part of his that is that over now? He wasn't that I don't think you can ban anyone from a city or a state I mean they do that in movies I thought that was part of his probation when he got out of prison that he couldn't associate with Well, you can't well, he's off paper now. Oh, he's off. So you can associate with anyone you want Okay, right, okay, but you know if you're on paper and you're and you're on parole in one city You can't travel without permission. Yeah, it doesn't mean that once you're off paper You can go anywhere you want. Okay. I didn't realize he was off. I mean, I remember there was a movie called primal fear Which I really I love that movie and uh with richard gear and they made some deal for For one of his clients where the client had to leave chicago or something I'm like that doesn't happen. You can't kick someone out of a state or a city Yeah But I digress But joey is is in the city of brotherly love this month. He's at the jersey shore right now But he will be making his return To philly soon and I'm sure the media will go Crazy there as they always do So for jimmy buchelato and ben On the other side of the glass I'm scott burnstein. We'll see you next week. I'm the og podcast Jimmy must anything. No, thanks for listening. All right. We're out