 I'm, thank you so much for joining us in the World's Hardest To Find Room. It's great to have more people in the audience than on the panel because that's always the thing that you're most afraid of with a panel session and the title of our panel today is Management Lessons for small and medium sized agencies from a fast growing billion dollar business. The content has changed slightly since I actually submitted this talk because we've got a new member has joined our management team in Elyse. Rydw i wych yn fyddio amddanech. Rydw i'r ffordd gydych chi'n meddo i pan oedd yma gŵr gwlad yn listwch ar gyfer allan yn cwestiynau a fyddwn i'n deall i gyfer allan yn cyhoedd yw mae hynodau i'n meddwl i ddim yn bwysig allan yma sy'n gweld ym mwyaf i fyrdd ymlaen, yma'n meddwl i'n meddwl i gael. Rydw i'r meddwl'i gael ym Mhwysin Ffox, Mae'r swyddo sy'n feddwl a mae'n ffasylwmp maen nhw'n gweithio i dda i ddarparu gyda'n gwybod bod hynny'n gyffredig gwaith, ond ond ond ond erbyn yn fwy— gyda'r nodi'r yddych yn gwybod yng Nghymru yn Fylllo Siarwyr. Yn gyfnodd yn teimlo'r Cyfnodog yn fynd i fynd i'w wathyrfa. Roedd seith ei fod yn y gallu'r din complet i'r cyfleu, mae'n gwneud eich rhai o'r holl o'r ffathod yma ymgweithio. gyda'r cymdeithasol yng Nghymru? Well, hi everybody, good afternoon. It's great to see so many here. My name is Julie Shuad. I am the COO, or Chief Operating Officer at Systemseed. I am here because my background I have about 14 years of experience in digital consultancies and transformation and have been working actually for most of my career, actually a large consultancy called ThoughtWorks and bringing my experience and my lessons learned from different roles and operations consulting, you name it, to Systemseed where we are solving lots of problems on a day-to-day basis. So, yeah, excited to share. My name is Anthony Fox-Davis. I'm CEO at Systemseed. I've been in the company 12 years in Drupal the same amount of time and I acquired the company after six years in the company. So that was six years ago and now it's our baby. Hi, I'm Elise. Nice to meet you all. I'm the CPO at Systemseed. I come from a background of 17 years of UX, product strategy, product management, worked at ThoughtWorks as well, heading up UX for Spain for them for a while where I met Julie and Stolar for Systemseed and also worked internally for the WHO and UNICEF for a while and then have brought all of those different NGO-UN experiences into Systemseed as well. Thank you. So if you haven't met Systemseed before, we are a very much a small agency. We're 15 to 20 people depending on the size of the projects that we have at any one time and which of our regular resources we've pulled in for specific jobs. We focus specifically on social impact work. So that's all of our projects and most of our clients are in the social impact space and we cover everything from hosting through development right the way through to UX which obviously means a lot of juggling as well with different team members for an organisation of our size. So I'm going to jump into the first question. Anthony, if we can start with you on this one. What do you see as the main difference between an agency and a consultancy because a lot of the bigger organisations they class themselves more as consultancies? You're going to see me relate to my notes so that I don't freestyle and go off on one, right? So we see that a lot of contracts and agreements are based on deliverables and so that would be outputs rather than outcomes. I think that's a really clear definition. A lot of agencies might have very particular skills and they may want to look at those skills and look at the contracts and how they can apply themselves to the contracts and it starts to be a spec list and a lot of agencies are used to getting those sort of proposals out in the wild and trying to answer those but unless you're looking at outcomes unless you've got problem solving at the heart of what you do and you're probably more likely an agency than doing consulting work and if anyone's looking for the academic definition it's basically that consultants think and agencies often do and we think the sweet spot is to have both so if you're an agency that can perform consulting you can have the power to think and the responsibility to do that in the job. So just to go on from that in terms of how to have impact how to have outcomes with your client my client, my experience having worked very much in consultancy world and agency world and comparing the two is very much around taking the client on that journey you know you can't have great impact if your clients are just going hey just do this, we've already decided to do this thing you really want to take your clients on that journey with you so really you know I know we've done a good job when years down the line in projects we're not involved with them which might not even be digital projects they're still using the strategic advice and some of the methodologies that we do with them in other areas so really taking them on that journey of they want to have outcomes they don't just want to be thinking like in terms of features is a really important one and we've seen that across the board I mean with, we work with George Washington, sorry to name drop but I will we work with George Washington University who were partnering with WHO and they were so overwhelmed with all the different projects they were working on and so impressed with agile methodology which they'd obviously never heard of within a non-digital environment they asked for us to come in and train them on how to adapt the way we were working into non-digital projects as well so really having that journey I think makes a massive difference and I think the other aspect that that leads on to is we're very much not a feature factory you know we know there are certain clients who are always wanting to go here is our list of requirements tell us exactly how much it's going to cost and go away and do it quietly and tell us when it's done and although that can be a difficult conversation at the beginning we do have to say that that really isn't the way we work if we worked in that way we can't guarantee to give you the impact and the impact's vital especially in the social impact space so for us it's really about explaining why we are not just a feature factory and how we're going to take them on a journey of deciding iteratively we hope on what features and what requirements are going to give them the impact that they need Just before we asked for Julie's opinion I wanted to check is there anyone in the room that would say like based on those definitions that they are a consultant and working at a consultancy rather than an agency at the moment no? okay one like one person so oh yeah two okay yeah so and everybody else is an agency like purely okay so one person two people have put their hands up the rest of you work in client side or are you agencies that perform consulting as well yeah you're an agency that does the thinking inside the agency great yeah that's good to know because then a lot of this should be resonating and we're not trying to be offensive to agencies by the way who aren't doing the thinking we're not going you don't think we know you all think just to be clear yeah I think that's really important I think that's interesting too in terms of some of the added value and like you said at least around the impact that you can deliver in terms of doing both the thinking and doing I saw that a lot when actually you know my previous experience which was in a much larger consulting company and I think this is one of the differences I see between consulting and agencies is generally actually the size of the organisation and there are pros and cons to that of course which I know we'll get into later so forgive me for sharing one of my opinions now I think in larger organisations I've seen a lot that there's a lot of process and sometimes rigidity in the way that things need to be done even at a practice level when you talk about delivery and the way that you're going to go about you know solving a problem for a client and that can sometimes slow down the process of actually making sure that you're doing the right thing and you're actually helping your client solve the problem at the end of the day whereas in an agency especially one like ours at Systemseed have been really impressed with the ability that we have to be very flexible and also very agile for want of a better word to be able to adapt ourselves to really solve the problems of our clients and you know work with them to figure out the right way of helping them achieve their goals I think the take away if anyone's looking for a soundbite you might hear what sounds like waffle but if there's a soundbite to take away it's the consultants think agencies build and the trick is to try and do both With that sort of size distinction as well I'd be interested to know but particularly for Julian Elise you both worked at large consultancies before and do you think that smaller SME type agencies can have the same level of impact with the client as the larger agencies Julie do you want to take that one first Absolutely I really don't think that the size of the organisation has anything to do with the impact that you can have with your clients or at least not in my experience so I'm willing to be proven wrong but I think a lot of it actually comes down to the engagement model that you choose to have with your client how you treat them how you engage with them how you work with them essentially and something that we've been trying to intentionally bring a lot more at least the last year into system seed is revisiting our account management and our client relationship kind of practices to make sure that we are actually kind of walking the talk when we say to our clients we want to partner with you we want to be in a partnership with them to help them solve their problems and I think you can be a consulting company of any size and agency of any size and that doesn't matter it's just about the way you choose to engage and yeah Elise maybe I'll ask for you to stop there if something comes to mind you can always interrupt me so yeah obviously I'm biased but I think often more than a larger consultancy or agency I think my personal experience in large consultancies I saw that there would often be a real battle often with the biz dev sales people where if they knew they could get something big through the door but it was absolutely feature factory like it would be a battle but at the end of the day often on the product side we wouldn't win and we would be told this is how we're going to do it maybe you're not even going to have a UX or you're not even going to have a product manager just do as they ask because we're going to win lots of money on this in my personal experience I can't talk for all SMEs but certainly for us that absolutely never happens I think we're all really aligned on the strategy that we want to go forward with the impact that we want to have so that aspect has just never been an issue and there's never been that frustration that I've personally had in larger consultancies where there's definitely an issue in terms of more on the client side it sounds silly but many procurement departments really play it safe so they are still looking at the mega vendors that fearful thinking and the expression I have to look at it just why I have to be reminded because we all say it all the time no one ever got fired for buying IBM so that fearful thinking is very much there and sometimes I feel when we're talking to procurement or some clients we're already thinking in their mind it's got to be this these very very big vendors that we've heard of so that still can be a challenge but I'm sure it's a challenge for all SMEs that we all try and solve Julie did you want to add something else before Anthony jumps in so I think that's also really interesting when I think about one of the big differences between consultancies and agencies from what I've seen is also the ability to have dedicated people on specific roles in the business development department in larger consultancies whose job it is is to get under the skin and in the minds of procurement and understand how those processes work and in a small company we're having to wear many hats and juggle it all and figure it all out at the same time and I think that there are things that you can do to overcome that and bridge that gap in terms of leveraging a lot of the relationships that you build but also in being really on top of the tools that you use to remind yourself of your activities and milestones and trying to build more of a human connection also with the people where you get the opportunity I think the question was about impact in SME versus a big consultancy I think being small and nimble people talk about agile a lot but I don't know how many people feel that they are in an agile organisation doing agile projects I think a lot of the time that is in name only but if you are small and nimble and truly agile you can be highly efficient and so I think that's where one of the strengths of being in SME lies and you don't have to be fearful of that big competition because they're often slow bogged down by process there's a lot of fluff that actually has to be paid for in the larger organisations marketing, PR, offices like ad-infinitum so I'd say if you want to be efficient either stay small or when you grow big you want to take the Microsoft and BBC lead you carve out a safe space a small silo with pure authority within that silo to get things done on an agile basis thank you and as an SME agency what would you each say that the key is to competing with some of those bigger organisations that we're talking about do you want to start seeing if you've got the mic? sure so this will sound a bit like Drith's story time but there's a well-known story in central government in the UK and arguably the most bureaucratic place on earth Whitehall and you've probably heard of GOV.UK it is the gold standard of central government websites and I think it replaced something north of 10,000 different websites so it's an incredible feat GOV.UK was built by government digital services this is over 10 years ago and people have heard this story or know this case study and GDS was created by Marthalane Fox who was the ex-CEO of lastminute.com in the House of Lords and GDS used ThoughtWorks to help create GDS and therefore GOV.UK after that GDS decided to upend the local only approach to having suppliers and vendors support central government what I mean by that is there used to be a two-hour perimeter ring around London and if you weren't a supplier based in that ring you could not work for central government at the time and so part of GDS was to create G-Cloud which was to expand that perimeter ring to the whole borders of the UK and to effectively they wanted free market capitalism they wanted a free market where they could have suppliers from all over the UK and instead of just sticking to those within two hours of London and what this has led to today is that SMEs are actually scored more highly for GDS contracts than larger organisations so if we're looking at how you can compete as an SME versus larger consultancies or bigger firms just in the procurement waiting being an SME of below a certain size will give you a higher waiting you've got a more likely outcome to winning that proposal like for like apples to apples if you're small and last year we worked with a well-known UK digital agency someone from the Drupal community that was too big to benefit from some of those waitings and so they asked us to co-bid on things for the UK GDS contracts where they could leverage the fact that we were small and they would get high waitings so go out there and make your partnerships with the bigger organisations while you're small you've got something they don't have to their favour that's I would say that is a goal probably for anyone small in the room find a larger partner the other thing I wanted to add to that is thinking about the current economic climate that we've been in as well I think that it's really important to understand particularly the last year that it's no surprise that our clients are tightening their purses and they're getting more averse with the uncertainty in spending money and I've seen this a lot actually from my previous experience and now is it's really important to make sure that your portfolio is as diverse as it can be in terms of ensuring that you're not just sort of sectioning into clients where you're only getting like long-term agreements or longer-term contracts that are you know going to, they do provide you some security and they give you a really nice level of predictability that allows you to be able to plan further ahead and all of those things but it goes the same way if all of your clients are very small in there, I don't know one to three month contracts where you're constantly having to spin the wheels of your lead generation at your sales engine to start new clients, build new relationships and I think the key to being successful and competitive in this landscape is trying to find a way that you're balancing your eggs in different baskets essentially and I think that I have seen organisations fail in this last year because they have significantly over-indexed on those longer-term larger contracts as a way to find that security and that being the prize and of course in the last year many clients turning around saying we can't guarantee that funding for next year and those organisations walked away from those contracts and now wish they had them so yeah I think there's something really important there about figuring out what is the diversity that you want in your portfolio and leveraging strengths like how your ability as a small organisation or as an SME enables you to be more competitive in that landscape and the service and the flexibility that you can also offer to a client that some of the larger players won't because they're being too stubborn for want of a better word yeah and I'd say although yeah I agree with Julie obviously but the but but I don't know I do and and they clapped at the end the a good portfolio does help you and I'm sure a lot of you have this because many reputable organisations and centres of education et cetera want RuPaul and certainly we have found that it builds trust that you know we have a long-term agreement and do many large projects with WHO and UNICEF and some large charities like Concern it builds trust that they are our clients but also it builds trust the longevity we have with them you know they are our long-term clients they come back to us and it builds trust with other departments of those organisations so in general within those organisations other departments see the impact we're having and come to us first so that definitely is helpful where we know those people are going to trust us on what we're doing and what would you say that you've learnt from past experience and the way that you're currently doing things the way that we're currently doing things at Systemseed that you think are the particular things that help us to be successful for the size that we're at like if you had to pick what are those things I don't know if my answer written down here in front of me I will stick to exactly answers a question but I'll state it anyway the effort that you have as an SME is fewer lines of communication and I think everyone's seen very famous diagrams now of a triangle three people and three lines of communication there's an exponential increase in terms of those lines for each dot that you add after the triangle I think that's really important that everybody is in the loop in delivery teams and that those lines of communication are fewer that goes for back end operations as well Julie's very good at tying the team together it's very simple to have fewer people involved in that fewer lines of communication everybody knows what's going on you also get deeper into your solutions the smaller you are I think everybody understands what's going on so it's not just the lines of communication but it's what happens through those lines of communication and you can get you're far less separated from the solution so at the beginning we talked about output versus outcomes feature factories versus thinking and doing in a consultancy level and really what you want your staff to do if you're let's say a digital agency which I know a lot of us are is not just to build features but it's to have all staff on the delivery of a project understand that sector better whether that is education health charity whatever that vector is in society you want everyone in the team upskilling so they have knowledge if you think about a tea of knowledge or a comb of knowledge you don't just have a deep knowledge in the sense of the technical expertise but you have sector knowledge and that makes you far more appealing the next time you go to market you have experts in the industry as well as experts in the hard technology so I'm trying to think about what I've brought with the experience or what's changed maybe since I joined system seed and I think the biggest thing for me which has been a challenge because we're not a very big team we don't have to work out every day and I have to remind myself that I'm trying to do this for the benefit of the team and of our clients is to try and increase our ability to focus I think thank you for the compliment on helping bring people together but I think that part of my responsibility or something that I've taken on as a bit of a personal mission is trying to make sure that I'm increasing the ability for everybody in the organisation to understand who is doing what and basically how we leverage ways that we get things done so you could use the word policies and practices and processes or they can be more informal habits that you have in your organisation in terms of the way that you go about solving a problem or the way that you communicate which are cultural norms that you also have so I think it's important to make sure that you're harnessing the strengths that you have within your culture and the way that you do solve problems, the way that you get things done and knowing within your team right you know if you're looking at the strengths and the challenges that individuals within your team have and understanding how to leverage them in directions where they can use their strengths and others can support them in areas where they're not able to maybe fill all of the gaps and try to remove barriers so just like you would as a project manager on a team is sort of figuring out how do you eliminate as much noise as possible to help your team be as effective as they can be and as I said I know it's a constant challenge I've seen it work better or worse in organisations where you just have more people but that can also mean more silos where people are not communicating and not being as open to understanding how to help each other in a team so you don't want to lose that either Talking much more from a delivery perspective because that's really my bag obviously again I'm biased but I've worked in a lot of different consultancies and agencies and system seed for me have been the fastest developers that I have worked with and I'd put a lot of that down to their amazing product manager now I'll put a lot of that down, partly that but to really good agile process and I mean you can go too far with process I feel that we have a really good balance the process is incredibly important to us but it's not just there for the sake of it and we're constantly getting feedback as teams refining what we do there to make sure that it's working very effectively for us and that's vital right because when you're working for NGOs you can't go oh you know what like we spent three days on some really cool experimental designs or going off on a tangent that we've decided not to use because those budgets really matter you really just can't go off and waste budget in ways where there's got to be deliverables the efficiency there is important and I think on that within the Drupal community something that's really important that we find is looking at the work that we've done and how we can use work within different projects right so if we've done some really cool customisations of the way we've done content admin or translation and then we're working on another client with some similar issues or some similar user flows we make sure to discuss what we've been doing before and how we can use our learnings the development we've already done to do that even faster those are some of the ways that I think we're pretty speedy sure I think what you've just mentioned actually just sparked another idea that I think every organisation struggles with knowledge management and how to retain that information about what has been done before and how you can reuse that information and I think that's actually also coming back to the previous questions a really big advantage competitively that small to medium sized organisations have is that it's much easier for us to share that knowledge and for us to be able to reuse that in a way that larger consultancies I've seen struggle they've spent millions of dollars on trying to figure out how to create libraries and resources and wikis and all sorts of things to do that and I think that's a big strength that you have at our size thanks so I've got a one quick follow up question which Elise I think you'd be a good person to answer this one we obviously were a Drupal specific a technology specific conference do you think there's an advantage to specialising in one technology if you're smaller or is sort of being more tech agnostic better like from that management point of view yeah so some of my experiences from a larger consultancy that really sold themselves and famed themselves on being tech agnostic and all I saw from that was that developers chose what was most in vogue and interesting for them and very very rarely the right technology for the client and therefore it would become very expensive long delivery processes lots of very fun learnings for the developers but not great for the client so in terms of I love the idea in theory but I've really seen that be an issue so as long as there's some ways of tying down look we can look at what technologies we're using but make sure there are people in that decision that are making that decision right for the client I think that's vital and then I'd say on the one tech side certainly from a design side it's much it takes time right to start to see some of the issues within UX and design until you've been within that technology for a while and I'm sure you're all pretty used to some of the horrors that there are within the Drupal admin system but if you have good UX and designers that work within Drupal for a while they really aren't a problem because you know how to refine them you know what blockers there are for the users and you know how to do that quickly so I think there's real advantages there of having that expertise thanks we've got some time left I'm wanting to take some questions from the floor if anybody has some questions if you want to direct them to a specific panel member that's great or general questions as well Tracy was first Tracy what's your question just to make it clear I don't know how this was phrased exactly but we're not the billion dollar business so the lessons are from ThoughtWorks the consultancy that's sold for a billion dollars maybe four years ago and with the inside knowledge from that we're trying to learn lessons from that for SMEs we're on our way but we're not there yet so everybody's going to leave the room now clickbait I thought you were all here so it worked thank you just in case anybody didn't hear that question what are the milestones on the way to achieving that scale do you want to start with that if you've got the microphone or would you rather Julie start with it I've got nothing else to say other than I had the same confusion I was like are we a billion dollar business already I know it's been a good year we're in the M's not the B's I can maybe provide a little bit of context on the experience around some of the things that I saw happen in the last it really was within the last five years as Anthony said the organisation I was working at got to that level of scale and a lot was driven by targets on client acquisition and revenue essentially taking some bigger bets in terms of investments that were made so investing in growth is actually something we didn't get a chance to talk about but we've been thinking about that and starting to implement that in how we're operating actually to grow our business and I think that's very important you cannot grow without taking some investment and putting that back in your business in various ways which Anthony I can see is dying to maybe share some that are going to leverage your ability to be able to kind of reach those objectives so you know whether it's just revenue that you're driving for or a certain number of clients in your portfolio there are many many metrics you can choose and I don't think any of them are right or wrong but understanding the bets you're going to take, the experiments you want to run and the investments that you need to make is critical in being able to also look at those things in a very agile way and say are they working for us or are they not and when would you stop something and not continuing for the sake of it just because you've taken that investment already is it also really important so a quick story time again earlier this year in April I spoke to Spencer Gallagher he runs Cactus in the UK they understand all of the agency landscape in the UK thousands of agencies they work with he's really got his finger on the pulse I very much recommend his book agency Nomics for anyone who wants to see the A to Z of how to run an agency from someone who's seen it all and I think well he mentioned to me there were basically three ways to grow your agency and so I'll just parrot these off as if you know I can take credit so he said there's new logos, new names on your portfolio there's land and expand which is the phrase from consultancy so you find a client and then you cross sell, up sell, side sell, resell or M&A mergers and acquisitions and those are the three ways and it doesn't mean you have to choose one but as long as you're looking at everything you do as a growth strategy boiling down to one of those three then you're measuring the right things and you're focusing in the right areas from there there's a lot of opportunity to do different things and I think just something that's quite well with that with those three ways of growth you can start doing that quite small because I mean we've acquired we've acquired Elise's design consultancy she used to run we used to work a lot together but she used to run her consultancy independently and I think you can start those things quite early on next question okay everyone's welcome to join oh good question so it's much more about what does the user oh yeah if you didn't hear the question well you said it so beautifully do you mind saying it again sorry so this is a little bit mean but I was wondering why the chief product officer says five or six time we're not here to deliver features we're not a feature factory and therefore I'm curious what is your product at system seed and how you're approaching it so good question I don't think it's mean I think it's a good question so for me it's very much about not to be rude to the client but if they're left to their own devices before we get involved they do not know what features they should be developing that is the long and short of it so it's really about us being involved from the stage where we can go who are your users what do they need what are their pain points what are their goals genuinely what are their goals not just guessing and making up these pretend personas and what does your organisation need to achieve in the short term in the next six months starting from that basis and we then decide what those features are with the client so the features come but they don't just tell us what they are exactly exactly yeah that's exactly for those that didn't hear it the bridge to being a consultancy is exactly that we're not going hey like you've given us a list of requirements it might bring you good outcomes it might not that's not our job to know we'll just build it well but is it the right thing to build not our problem that is not what we do ever yeah and the thing about that as well is so I look after a lot of our marketing it's really harder it's a lot harder to promote that because it's not like yes you'll get ABCD and if we say with a lot of our government work or NGO work they have tenders that they put out where they're scoring you against do you do ABCD and we have to start from we don't what's that saying about if you ask someone a direction and they say well if you're going there I wouldn't start from here it's a little bit like that and it's not easy and in fact your talk last year you're going to start with that so thank you if if you've heard the phrase build and run you want to build and run not build and run away so you want to support the client and support them around their outcomes often pressure trickles down in a hierarchical organisation and if you're down the rung and they're not getting their solution they're not getting their outcomes you're going to end up feeling that same pressure just push back against that and say okay let's start talking about the solution but the best time to have that is before you start the work okay thank you just in case there are other people with questions did anyone else have a question that they wanted to jump in with before we go to Jam's second one no? were we liking Jam's question oh at the back great so the question is we have a particular strategy of going after one particular vertical what are the pros and cons of that approach I'm going to pass to Julie to explain this in more detail but effectively you do want industry expertise any sort of hard skill, Drupal being one of them but if you can be in a market so if you can be in education if you can be in charity, if you can be in government etc but diversity is actually a key within that so it's great to focus on a certain number of markets until you grow and to have diversity built into the strategic plan for growth but I'll let Julie elaborate can I say something that's sorry, I've got a hijacked it so mine is not on the kind of business growth side at all but more from our own kind of happiness and I think that a lot of us in systems seed feel that way that working in something where we can have positive impacts has been incredibly important for us, until six years ago I fully worked in the private sector and certainly on the UX level the better you get at that that is basically helping large companies make people get their credit card out to buy something they didn't want to buy and the better you get at that the darker it feels so for me it's a lot about that I now just love getting up in the morning and doing my job and I think a lot of us feel that way and that helps us with recruitment as well doesn't it a lot of a lot of the people that we end up or that come to us when we're advertising new roles it's a big part of the thing is you get to work on projects that make a difference around the world and that's important to us and the people that work with us like that too and I'm trying to think specifically about pros and cons that I've seen and I think I can honestly think more pros than cons because similar to what Anthony was saying is I do think there's a lot of diversity within the vertical or the sector that we serve right we actually spent the last six months redefining our sales strategy for the next couple of years and within that we have various domains and various regions where we can target loads of organisations and there's countless opportunities out there with companies and well and foundations and agencies that need to spend money on solving their problems so we haven't really seen it being a con the sense of the opportunity that's out there I would say one of the biggest challenges I've found since joining has actually been a lot of how we're able to get access to those opportunities so a lot of it is about network building which is the same in any it doesn't matter what vertical you're in it's all about who you know right not well I hope what you know too but that depends and I think with a lot of charities and UN organisations or foundations there's a lot of RFP process tender process is what I'm looking for and that can be time consuming so that's been something that we've been trying to figure out how we navigate better and we're still working on it so if anyone has figured that out I would love to hear about it thank you we've only got a couple of minutes left so I'd like to wind up there if anybody wants to continue the conversation we've got time for one more okay one if anybody has a quick question next do you want one more question or do you want to go and have beer it's fine if you want to go and have beer does silence mean beer I think silence means beer so we will be downstairs we've got a booth in the exhibition as well so if you want to come and talk to us through the week we'd love to chat more one on one if you could please make sure that you rate the talks that you're attending in the app especially ours because that would make us really happy and we also have our team doing another talk tomorrow another one on Thursday and we're running a bunch of boffs as well so if you'd like to attend any of those you see someone wearing system seed t-shirt come and say hi we're building Lego on our stand as well if you like Lego come and see us in the exhibition hall so thank you very much and enjoy the beers