 Did you kill her? No, sir. Fight to the blood is spilled. Right. Where did she hit you? Psst. Let's talk about some of the suspicious behavior that you want to respond to. Hey, Dr. Phil here. If you're smart, you will subscribe to the behavior panel. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst, and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in body language. I created the number one online body language course, Body Language Tactics with Greg Hartley. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language and help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility. Every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military, published the number one bestselling book on behavior profiling, body language, persuasion, and influence. And now I train intelligence agencies and the general public in the same. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, put together this Body Language Tactics dot com course with Scott Rouse and spend most of my time on Wall Street or corporate America. Dr. Phil. Well, I'm Dr. Phil, and I am a huge fan of these four guys. So I'm zoom bombing this whole thing. So I can come in here and hang out with these guys and hopefully get some credibility and learn something which I do every time I watch them, which is quite often. So they are letting me show up today and listen and learn and talk. So here I am. I'm one of the one of the boys today. We can't tell you how much we appreciate you being here. Thanks so much. It's okay. Thanks for coming in. Yeah. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about a guy named Mark Castellano. And he's convicted. I don't know if he's convicted yet. I know he's accused of killing his girlfriend. And Dr. Phil, you it's your videos. Why don't you tell us, give us a little background on it. This was a really interesting case. We do a lot of, we do a lot of current crime cases and this one was particularly interesting because this man was living with his girlfriend in Houston and really a mismatch. This guy was an IT guy, a real kind of nerd. And she was kind of an IT girl, really popular, vivacious, outgoing, worked in a law firm as a paralegal, had a lot of friends. And all of a sudden she goes missing. And so they start investigating because it looked fishy from the beginning. And Harris County law enforcement was investigating this case. It was in the news and my news producers got onto it and started talking to him. And he talked to Harris County law enforcement, I believe was the Sheriff's Department at the time and said, I'm thinking about interviewing with Dr. Phil because I want to turn a bright light on over this whole thing to help try and find her. What do you guys think? And they said, oh, hell, yes, we absolutely think you should go interview with Dr. Phil. I have a very active relationship with Harris County law enforcement and they knew I would ask hard questions and they said, absolutely, we think you should do that for sure. And that's what happened. He was in Odessa at the time. And so I went into Odessa and interviewed him at his parents' home and sat down with him and started just asking him to tell me his side of the story. I found him to be very peculiar from the beginning. I found the facts of the case to be very peculiar from the beginning and found him in his demeanor and characteristics to be very interesting with a lot of red flags from the very beginning. Interesting. OK, great, great. All right, are you guys ready to look at the first video? Yeah, let's have a look. Here we go. Let's talk about the night she disappeared. OK. You had a fight. Yes, sir. And was this a physical fight or an argument or both? Basically, I come home. She's in her room. The first thing she does is start yelling at me that the Caden has made a big mess. He was running wild. About this point, I start arguing, you know, you've been asleep. You know, what do you want? You take enough Xanax so you can't hear him, you know, when we start fighting. Caden is at this point in his room hiding. She walks up to me and she gives me this kind of sucker punch while I'm under four. I mean, she hits me all the time and I don't retaliate. But she hit me and said, and clean it up right, expletive, expletive. And she goes in and slams the door. Where did she hit you? She hit you in the face and you didn't retaliate. No. All right, Greg, what do you got? So he starts off, we're going to see this guy's baseline. We always talk about someone looking down this way, looking down that way. The baseline I see this guy do throughout this whole thing is one of somebody who's arrogant around his friends. Head back when he's talking. Maybe it's just for you, Dr. Phil. I don't know. But what I see is a guy who's probably the smartest guy he knows who's looking down his nose when he's talking to someone. And as he's looking down, that chin up means later when his chin drops and we see him going into pre-confession, it won't be as pronounced as we see a normal person do. It will be a little less. So we'll look at that. He does a couple of things that are interesting. When you start asking him questions, I watch his eyes drift down to his left, a little internal conversation, figuring out how we should approach it. And then I'm going to leave a lot of stuff here because there's a lot of us and we want to talk. There's a smirk at she hits me. I love the fact that he says, my face. And then you ask the question, did you go, did you hit her back? And he goes, no, no, sir, there's a lilt there at the end. So there's odd body language here. He uses the word basically, which we don't see over and over and over. And at yeah, he does what Scott calls fading facts. His tone kind of drifts off. So listen to all those look for the baseline here. And this is his first thing. The other thing is he's overly helpful, which I always find interesting. And it's going to trip him up later when Doc starts putting pressure on him. So from there, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so completely concur on the basically there that kind of comes out of nowhere. This one really hits me as well. Kind of sucker punch. She gives me this kind of sucker punch. Well, was it a sucker punch or was it kind of a sucker punch? Like, what is it? What is it? Which one is it? So I'm I'm worried about about that. I'm really interested by this that happens. So so what is that about? Because it kind of sounds like the noise that you and McGregor used to make when he was filming Star Wars. And he had they hadn't got real light sabers or or and he would make the sounds as well to kind of get into the fantasy. So is it that kind of fantasy sound where he's he's imagining the hit on the face and he's making the hit on the face sound because it didn't actually happen? Or is it an expletive and explosive of there? Because that question he wasn't expecting. I think it's either here's my fantasy sound to make to make this real for me or I wasn't expecting that one. I got to make something up right now. I'm really interested by how calm he is at the moment. Feels really calm to me. But that slight side up smile happening there. That's kind of odd. But right off the bat, pretty calm, pretty calm at the moment. Let's see where where Dr. Phil can take him. But Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with both of you guys. And one thing we're seeing here is the immediate selling. We're getting we're being sold a story about one person who's a bad person. And everything you're going to hear here in the future is going to be about him and how he did the right thing. He is a good person. He's helping the police. He's doing all this stuff. And everything else is going to be about the other person. Uh, using drugs or doing something bad or needing help or needing some kind of help. So I think we're seeing we're starting to see a little pattern here of this narcissistic behavior, which goes back to what Greg was talking about with this chin up motion. And when primates, humans included our closest relatives are or Bonobo chimps. When we want to show that we're not scared of an enemy or we want to challenge another enemy, you've all seen this in a bar fight before the chin goes up, the arms go out. When someone's about to fight, we expose vital organs when we are confident and we're showing that we're not afraid of what's going on. And I think we're seeing the shell of someone who honestly believes that they're going to pull the wool over Dr. Phil's eyes. And we're seeing somebody who views Dr. Phil as a TV show host, not a 40 year career, forensic psychologist and like trial consultant. So we're seeing that. And I think when, when, when Dr. Phil asked him about where did she hit you? Where did she hit you in the face? It's a wonderful question because it gave him that opportunity. He had to pause. His eyes went down for internal dialogue. And he had to maybe rehearse this in his head. Truthful people don't have to do that. Scott, I'll pass it to you. All right. I think the most beautiful thing about this, if there's anything beautiful about it, is he has no earthly ideas being interrogated. He has no clues in his parents house. He thinks he's in charge, thinks he's in control. He's got it all under control and he has no earthly idea what's going on. He thinks he does, but in reality, he has he's no clue. Doesn't know what's happening to him. That's I think that's awesome. The way you the way you pull that off, Dr. Phil, it's unbelievable. And what happens here is he starts like you were saying, Chase, he creates the enemy here. He has to have the story of it's me and I'm the good guy and this person is the bad person. And here's all the things she did. She's she's violent to me. She's neglects her child. She takes drugs. The first thing she does is start yelling at me that the Caden has made a big mess. He was running wild. Well, about this point, I start arguing, you know, you've been asleep. You know, what do you want? You take enough Xanax to you can't hear him. You know, as he creates the enemy or the monster, he set himself up to be the good guy when he says he doesn't didn't fight her back or he didn't retaliate. Where did she hit you? She hit you in the face and you didn't retaliate. No, really? And as he goes through, he's and he's thinking about what he's saying. He's got pretty much the idea of what he's going to say. He's got he knows what he's going to say, the idea of it, but he hasn't said it out loud. So as he's looking around down here, he's running that story in his head. He's got the structure down, but he really doesn't have it pieced together or linked together well. That's why we see him looking around and thinking and we see that one little thing, one little shot of contempt as he goes through that. It's not a micro expression. It's just really fast expression of contempt. This thread runs throughout here. This whole thing where he creates an enemy, creates a monster, runs throughout the entire series of videos as we go through here as he attempts to do that, which makes sense for someone who has done something they shouldn't have done and they've got to have a reason why. If you think if I get caught doing this, I've got to have a reason why I did it. Otherwise, why would he be talking about all that? Why would he be setting himself up for this is really common when you when you see someone in this situation? When they've been accused of something like this and they're trying to defend themselves and they're defending themselves for later on as well. So that's what I see happen here. Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, I'll say this, I would hate to try to lie to you four guys. It'd be like trying to smuggle sunrise by a rooster. It would just be terrible because you're picking up so many different things and the body just can't lie. There are so many different signals that you can't control them. All right. I mean, you can you control your words, but you can't control all of your physiological signals and you're picking up on on so many of. And I agree with every one of them. I can tell you my approach in talking with him and anyone that I'm going to try to, you know, there's two different. I break things into two categories. One is deception detection. That's one thing. Can you tell if somebody's lying to you? And then secondly, is then what is the truth? You can you try to determine if they're being deceptive, but then you also say, OK, if that's a lie, then what is the truth? And as I think it was Cardinal, Cardinal Richelieu, who said, give me nine lines of dialogue, I can hang any man. I usually go in and and just let them believe that I'm buying everything they're saying going in. Just like I'm going for this hook line and sinker because they'll just keep talking and talking and talking. And I was immediately struck by two things. One is that what he was saying was so rehearsed and so inappropriate. Think about this. All of all of all of y'all that are listening and watching at home, think about if somebody you loved, someone, the mother of your child, had truly gone missing. What your state of mind would be. It would be, oh, my God, I'm I'm I'm desperate to find her no matter what in the world else. I'm desperate to find her. His priority was to assassinate her character. The first thing she does is start yelling at me that the Caden has made a big mess. He was running wild about this point. I start arguing, you know, you've been asleep. You know, what do you want? You take enough Xanax that you can't hear him. She hit me. She attacked me. She walks up to me and she gives me this kind of sucker punch while I'm on the floor. I mean, she she hits me all the time. She was involved with all of these these shady things. His number one goal was to make sure I knew she was a bad person. I knew she attacked him. He wasn't interested in trying to find her. He was interested in me knowing she was a bad person. The minute I heard all of that, I thought, OK, this is something is seriously, seriously wrong here. And the fact that it was so rehearsed, if you're having a confrontation like he's talking about psychologically, those things are chaotic. He talked about it like a waiter residing the specials. First, she here, then she came here, then she hit me there, then she went here, the touch, touch, touch. She she hits me all the time and I don't retaliate. But she hit me and said and clean it up right. Explosive, expletive. I think about to have interrupted him in the middle. He'd have had to go on back to the beginning. To tell the story, I thought he was very rehearsed. I thought it was very inappropriate. And I think he just was not reading the room, but I was encouraging him along. And as you say, surely you would think if you have the stakes are so high, he would have looked up on the Internet, gone to YouTube, where I've had billions of views and made a determination that this guy is going to ask some follow up questions. This isn't just going to be, I'm going to go down there. You know, your story goes a whole lot better if you're the only one telling it. But if you get asked some follow up questions, you need to have some answers in mind. I don't think he expected at all that this was going to turn into an interrogation. And he was just throwing out things without any thought whatsoever about, am I going to have to make good on this statement? So he can he wrote some checks. He couldn't cash in the first 30 seconds. There's 45 seconds of this conversation. And I made note of those. I thought he was arrogant. I thought he was narcissistic. And I thought he was interested in assassinating her character, all of which is psychologically incongruent with where he should be at that point in the story. Let's talk about the night she disappeared. OK. You had a fight. Yes, sir. And was this a physical fight or an argument or both? Basically, I come home. She's in her room. The first thing she does is start yelling at me that the Caden has made a big mess. He was running wild about this point. I start arguing, you know, you've been asleep. You know, what do you want? You take enough Xanax to you can't hear him, you know, when we start fighting. Caden is at this point in his room hiding. She walks up to me and she gives me this kind of sucker punch while I'm on the floor. I mean, she she hits me all the time and I don't retaliate. But she hit me and said and clean it up right. Exploitive, exploitive. And she goes in and slams the door. Where did she hit you? She hit you in the face and you didn't retaliate. No. All right. We good? Yeah. OK, so you say she goes in, slams the door. You think she's just in there right on the bed or something. But you go back in to resume the argument. Right. Yes. And she's gone. She's gone. Yes, sir. And that's the last time you saw her was when she punched you in the face. Yes, sir. When you say they're watching her walk away, slam that door. And that's the last time she has a car. She didn't take the car. So why didn't she take the car? You know, I don't really know for certain. She's always carrying narcotics. And she's definitely, definitely afraid of being pulled over by the police. Chase, what do you got? We start right away. We talk a lot about tents. Are they speaking in present tense, past tense or past perfect, which is probably going to come up a little bit later. He starts off with she is gone. But that was due to Dr. Phil's questioning, because Dr. Phil led him into a present tense mindset. That's often very helpful for people to recall memories. So instead of saying, tell me what happened after you left the living room. So we would ask the question by, all right, you leave the living room. Now what's happening? So kind of pushing the person into a more present tense mindset. I think that's why we're seeing like she is gone instead of she was gone. And she's gone. She's gone. Yes, sir. And I think this video shows Dupers delight. When he's saying she slams the door, you can see him almost sneering or smiling at his own deception there. And when he's saying she didn't take the car, there's a lemon sucking on a lemon sour pucker there. And I think that he regrets not getting rid of that car. She has a car. She didn't take the car. So what? To as of now, video one and video two that you've looked at, you have not heard him mention a name yet. So when a suspect fails to mention the name of a victim, but they are willing to mention names of other involved these like the son or the mother or involved family members, this is a big red flag. And I want to just make a distinction here. Oh, there are very, very few women on planet Earth who would walk away from their child without even sending a text or checking in over an email calling a family member. But a woman who would leave her child and not ever come back would prioritize her car and phone. And a woman who would prioritize her child wouldn't care about her car or phone. So we see a big difference here and that there's one in a billion women maybe that would just abandon their child and never contact them or even just check in to see how their kids are doing. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think that's that's really astute. Look, calm, confident that that side of the mouth up like like somebody who doesn't realize they're on the Dr. Phil show right now. It's like, have you not have you not worked this out? Have you not have you not looked into what could happen on this show? He really feels like he's got this one, which is amazing to see. Here's my I've just got one point on this because here's my biggest issue with it. And and correct me if I've got this wrong somewhere. He says I was in there watching her. Well, I was in there watching her walk away, slam the door. And that's the last time that last time you saw her was when she punched you in the face. Yes, sir. When you'd say they're watching her walk away, slam that door. And that's the last time hang on, then. So you were in there watching her. Walk away. You're in there watching a walk away, slam the door. but you're still in there you're not outside the room you're still in the room like you've got to get the geography right in my mind he's now accidentally told us the story whereby he's in a room with her he or she has slammed the door they're in the same room he never comes back to open the door to go hey where's she gone he's in the room with her all the time now you know put in the comments there if you or tell me guys if you think I've got that that wrong but I think he's just described the geography of being in the room with her all the time I think but Scott what do you got give me thoughts alright I think that I think the mouth situation going on there is lip-persing when your lips are pursed that usually denotes or suggests and indicates that you don't agree with what's happening there and in his case it could be and sometimes if your lips are personally go a little bit to the side that suggests that you might see a different outcome to what's being talked about in this case I think what we're seeing is a combination of those two things because this thing progresses on to a bigger mouth movement I really really got into this part of it because I'd seen a couple others as we went along and this thing grows and gets more intense as the interrogation gets more intense for him he's he has an issue here in other words there's something here for him and that's that's where you see it and you start going in deeper at that point and then dr. Phil says well why didn't she take the car he says I really don't know for certain so why did she take the car you know I don't really know for certain well he knows why cuz he killed her so he knows for certain why but he's just saying I don't know for certain but he does know when you hear those things I know but I don't know for certain you know I don't really know for certain that's what that's saying so I don't really know for certain you can't say that's what it means every time but when When you start piling these things up in a little pile, that's what starts suggesting someone is either innocent or they're guilty or they're being deceptive with you. That's really deceptive. A little red flag there for that. Again, that arrogant smile has got that all cocked back in that head. This is a really arrogant guy. I don't think he's a psychopath. I don't think he's a sociopath. I think we're dealing with someone. He may not be a malignant narcissist. I don't know about that, but I know for sure I haven't talked to him. I don't know for sure he's a narcissist from what he's saying and to the emotions we're not seeing here. No empathy for this girl, no empathy for this child, no empathy for anyone, even for himself I don't think, because we see no facial expressions at all that show us any emotion whatsoever other than happiness or joy. So Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, here's what I'm thinking at the time. This is a very intelligent guy just in terms of just raw intellect. This guy's probably 95th percentile. He works in the IT field and he has a sophisticated job within the IT field. I mean, he's not plugging in computers. This guy is doing sophisticated work. So that means he can think in complex ways. Now, if you've watched Law and Order, you know that if somebody disappears without their car without their keys and there is no activity on their cell phone for a week, that's bad. So he's coming to talk to somebody and her car is there, her keys are there, and her phone is there and there's not been any activity on it whatsoever. You're going to think, they're going to think that's suspicious. I need to have some kind of explanation for that. But this is where the narcissism comes in, is he doesn't think that he has to explain that. He just thinks, you know, I don't know, she's in the bedroom one minute and I've never seen her since. They're watching her walk away, slam that door, and that's the last time. But let me tell you, she's afraid the police will pull her over with the car. So that's probably why she wasn't in it. She has a car. She didn't take the car. So why didn't she take the car? You know, I don't really know for certain. She's always carrying narcotics and she's definitely, definitely afraid of being pulled over by the police. Again, I want to come back to telling you, Dr. Phil, what a bad human being this is. She hit me, she does drugs, she's afraid of the police, she disappeared on me. Not the first time, by the way. So again, this is not reading the room, not reading the situation. So it tells me that I'm dealing with an extreme narcissist and you said you were there. What was the feeling in the room? At this point, he's still in control. He thinks he hasn't read the room yet. The wheels haven't started to come off yet. And he really believes that he's selling all of this and it's going along. And at this point, her name is Michelle Warner and he always felt inadequate and inferior to her. And at this point, it is dooping delight. It's like, okay, who's the top dog now? Because he knows what he's done. And now he's on TV. He's the one in the spotlight and he knows where she is because he put her there and he cannot help himself. Now he's in the cat bird seat and it's coming through. It is dooping delight and he can't help himself. And he hasn't started to read the room yet, but he's getting ready to, getting ready to take a seriously bad turn for him. My dad didn't know a thing about body language, but he would say like a jackass eating briars when you think you're that guy. And that's on my list. The first thing I see in him is that that smile, those teeth, he eye blocks. And what we're going to see later is that is his number one indicator. He's lying because he eye blocks when he's when he makes up something just out of plain cloth. I saw a stancer. What Scott and I call a stancer taking high ground, pulling in all that. Hey, she's a scumbag and I'm a good person. And one of the things I liked about watching him is he uses you to validate his points. Every time you say a word that anchors his story, boom, he's on it. And he's very respectful. And yes, sir. And she's gone. She's gone. Yes, sir. Until you trip him up later, and then he starts running all over you. I love that part. At this point when he does the see what I got, I have a plan. When you ask me, what about the car? She has a car. She didn't take the car. You see it. It just boils out of him. She has a car. She didn't take the car. And then his shift in eye access as he goes over there in that right shoulder coming up. When he wants requests for approval, we always talk about requests for approval on here, Doc, where people raise their brow. He raises one, just one. That's good enough every time he's asking for your approval. And when he thinks he's got it, I love the fact he's not figured out he's being interrogated yet. And we'll see later because when you get people out of thinking and into feeling, they start stammering and stuttering and they go into that kinesthetic left, right, down, left, right, down. You'll be able to see it coming. It's just right now. He thinks he's in charge. I love, I love what you do with him there. Okay. So you say she goes in, slams the door. You think she's just in there on the bed or something, but you go back in to resume the argument, frankly. Yes. And she's gone. She's gone. Yes, sir. And that's the last time you saw her was when she punched you in the face. Yes, sir. When you say they're watching her walk away, slam that door, and that's the last time. She has a car. She didn't take the car. So why didn't she take the car? You know, I don't really know for certain. She's always carrying narcotics and she's definitely, definitely afraid of being pulled over by the police. All right, am I good? Yeah, good. Let's move. Did she just walk away from the apartment, you think? I'm sure someone picked her up. She doesn't walk anywhere. So you think she called somebody to come get her? She had to. Her cell phone has apparently not been on since she left. How would she communicate with people without her cell phone? The only thing is that she has a bag of cell phones. And that's what I told Houston police. She probably had at least 11 of them. Really? Yes, sir. All right, Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, he's he's so into selling that she's a bad person. And again, you have to, from a psychological standpoint, you have to continue to go back and put yourself into position of where you would be. If your significant other had gone missing and you were fearful that something terrible had happened to her, you have to put yourself in that position and say, OK, where would I be if I was in that position? What would my emotions be? What would my fears be? What would my what would my speculations and projections be? And not one time has he shown any concern for her whatsoever. And he said, well, she has so many cell phones, in fact, 11. The only thing is that she has a bag of cell phones. And that's what I told Houston police. And she probably had at least 11 of them. Really? 11 cell phones like he's counted her cell phones. She's shown him her collection of. Come on, let me show you my collection of cell phones. He's just he's overreaching. He's overselling. And at this point, the absence of appropriate emotion and the overselling of the inappropriate emotion, if you assume something has bad, something bad has happened to her, the fact that you would be trashing someone that has something bad has befallen them is just so insensitive and so inappropriate. At this point, my conclusion is he knows what has happened. So there's no mystery to him. There's no fear in him because he has the answers. He's the one person in the room that knows exactly what has happened. So it's the absence. I spend a lot of time hearing what isn't said. And at this point, I'm really listening to what isn't said. He's not saying her name. He's not talking about his concern for the child missing the mother. He's not none of the things that you would expect a person to be talking about at this point is he saying and instead he's continuing the character assassination. Greg, what do you got? Yes. So I'm just going to hit a couple of things here. One thing is I'm going to show you later how I know he blocks his eyes or closes his eyes when he's lying. But one of the things you're going to notice here, first of all, he can't read body language at all. Because you're looking at him with the most jaundiced eye I've ever seen when you're looking at him in the opening of that and he can't figure that out, that you're on to him and that you're in there. Then if you listen to his tone changes, he starts to talk about this phone. He's got filler words he uses, probably his argument style. How would she communicate with people without her cell phone? The only thing is that she has a bag of cell phones. The only thing is the only thing is the only thing is the only thing is the cadence of that is very different from the other words. And then he does a little down left and goes to that 11 cell phones made up garbage that he's coming together with. So at the end of that, he does a deep swallow, an eye lock and a set jaw. Right there. That's all deception. That's all locking in on you, hoping that he's seeing that you believe him. And that's what I see there. You say it's the most jaundiced eye you've ever seen. Wait a few minutes. You're going to see one. I love when you get him in the well, when you get him down to where he's not looking anymore, right? I was just waiting for him to say, I did it, I did it like Perry Mason, you know? Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, he's doing what he's got, what I call vent mouth, especially there toward the end where he starts talking and he's talking like this. And that's what I told Houston police. And I call it vent mouth and that's short for ventriloquist mouth because it's like when you see a ventriloquist or when you go, we do it. Guys do it. We're with our our wives. We're out at a social engagement and we're in a group of people and somebody starts in that group, starts telling a story. And we know it's not true. And you start like this. You look over to him and you go, you listen to this, you kidding me? It's got to look at we all turn into ventriloquist. So that's vent mouth. He's not quite there, but he's getting there. And that's what I told Houston police when he starts starting up like that. He's adding a couple of qualifiers here that red flags for me when he says she doesn't walk anywhere. Did she just walk away from the apartment, you think? I'm sure someone picked her up. She doesn't walk anywhere at the end. There's no need to put that in there. But he adds that in there to help help build that up. I'm sure someone picked her up. She doesn't walk anywhere. At this point, all of us would know this guy's full of it. No, you did, Dr. Phil. But then he says you said so she called somebody to come and get her. And he said she had to. You think she called somebody to come get her? She had to. Really? Yeah, we don't need to know. You don't have to say she had to. You just say, yeah, you know, again, no emotions in here are going are showing up that should be showing up with what's happening. Nothing at all. The only thing we're seeing in here, a little bit just to get in toward a touch of worry there with his vent mouth at the top, where Dr. Phil, you say that she walked away from the apartment. His head not should be a yes, but it's a no. As he's saying, yes, it's sort of his head, bobble, no thing. So it's that's where his qualifiers start. That's I go down the road for four weeks on that. But I won't chase. What do you got? Absolutely agree with you guys and absolutely agree that there's a there's a narrative and a story being sold to you. And he's not he's not necessarily trying to sell Dr. Phil. He knows that this is going to go out somewhere. So he's carefully planned this this thing in advance. I want you to watch the very beginning of this video when we when we played again after this short discussion here. He shakes his head, no for confirmation of Dr. Phil's question and no for negation of Dr. Phil's question. And this is one of those rare moments. I know people say you'll see a lot of body language experts that say, oh, he's saying, no, I love my wife. On the Internet, that doesn't mean anything. This, once we see a baseline deviation and two confirmations within the same five second period is right at the beginning of this clip. You're going to see that. That's where we see a conflicting gesture behavior here. And when she's when he says she had to she had to he shakes his head, no, again. So we're starting to see a little pattern here. And he does this with his eyes closed, kind of an internal dialogue at around four or five o'clock for for our viewing four or five o'clock. And I want you to pay attention to what I call a politeness spike when Dr. Phil's asking this question. I want you to listen for the rest of all these videos. When does he say yes, sir or no, sir, instead of just yes or no? So when we see a sudden shift in politeness, this happened to me. I did an interrogation in Los Angeles. It was kind of a concierge interrogation. And this young guy I was interviewing said no, no, and called me bro and dude throughout the entire interview. And then when I started getting to the real questions, he goes, oh, no, sir. Absolutely not. No, sir. No, sir. So we see this big mountain spike of politeness. And I want you to just pay attention there. When Dr. Phil asked about the bag of cell phones, he said. Yes, sir. Really? Yes, sir. So we see a spike there. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think we get here something of the arrogance of Prince Andrew. Do you remember back when we talked about Prince Andrew? He would say, well, in the Navy, like, you know, you just don't understand. You can't possibly understand this situation. He says the only thing is and then goes into this idea of the bag of probably probably 11 cell phones. And he treats what essentially is a major abnormality. I mean, I know some people with with plenty of cell phones, but they don't have 11. Like, 11 is a major abnormality in the amount of cell phones that any human being can possibly cope with, I would say. And she probably had at least 11 of them. Really? That's a major abnormality. You're not going to just brush that aside. And we get that kind of not really an eye block there. I think Chase, it's those eyes of superiority. Like, I got you here. What's beautiful about this is Dr. Phil here plays the innocent. He goes, really? Really? Like, tell me more. Really? Because that's going to elicit more information. And I think, you know, the takeaway for this, for for you watching this right now is can you be when you need information out of people? Can you be just that little bit more innocent about it? That little bit more naive because that can pull a lot of great information out there. You know, Dr. Phil's got a lot of time on this. He's got a full interview. He doesn't need to come in really aggressive, just really innocent. I really don't understand this. I'm unsure. Well, just tell me what's going on because I'm an innocent. I don't get it. And eventually it's going to be his undoing. And it affords the opportunity for a change as well. You've now got somewhere to go. If you play the innocent, then you can suddenly have data and information and play the opposite and destabilize the situation. I think that's what we're going to see further down the line is Dr. Phil change from the innocent into somebody who now has some information and now knows something and that's going to put him into into what, you know, others here would call pre confession because he knows he now has somebody who's brighter and a little bit sharper than him. Yeah, that's what I got for you. Did she just walk away from the apartment, you think? I'm sure someone picked her up. She doesn't walk anywhere. So you think she called somebody to come get her? She had to. Her cell phone has apparently not been on since she left. How would she communicate with people without her cell phone? The only thing is that she has a bag of cell phones. And that's what I told Houston police. I'm she probably had at least 11 of them. Really? Yes, sir. All right. Here we go. Well, let's talk about some of the suspicious behavior that you want to respond to. There were reports that when the police went into the apartment, areas had been cleaned up with bleach. That was really blown out of proportion. There are two areas where I had been cleaning up before by the computer desk that we use that Walmart off brand carpet cleaner. And it bleached the carpet. Two stains that had been there for months. So you didn't clean up because of course, what people think, right? They're going to be suspicious. Say, OK, fighting suit, blood is spilled, right? Bleach cleans that right gets rid of DNA, right? And the first thing I did was tell Houston, P.D., please go in there where they find tooth comb and look at the apartment, please. All right, Greg, what do you got? So that if you stop that video at the very beginning, you'll see that snarky kind of toothy thing he's got going on. That's not even that's not doopers to like that snarky. Hey, I did away with the evidence. I know that they're not going to find it. My guess is if you killed her on the bed, he took the bed clothing, whatever. He didn't use the bleach. He is impressed with himself. He's got suspicious. The minute you say something about suspicious behavior and you ask him the question, watch that blink rate, bam, bam, bam. Oh, here it comes. I better be ready for this. So he's getting some fight or flight there. It doesn't go really big, but you can see just a bit. That right eye comes up and ask for approval as he's telling the story. His left eye appears to be a little close to me. I can't tell exactly from there. But it looks like he's getting that dominant eye closure thing going on again like we saw in terror where people try to get away. And then he goes to one of my favorites. I always say on the show, chaff and redirect, you gave me a chance to talk about something I'm going to tell you about Walmart's poor quality of their floor cleaner. There were reports that when the police went into the apartment, areas had been cleaned up with bleach. That was really blown out of proportion. There are two areas where I had been cleaning up before by the computer desk that we use that Walmart off brand carpet cleaner. And it bleached the carpet to stains. They had been there for months. And then I'm so smart that I'm going to get away with that. And so anytime you give him a chance, he's going to take that one with it. That's all I'm going to cover here, because there's a lot to go here and everybody will get their chance to go around. But Chase, what do you got? We see him kick it off with the closed eye talking again, which Mark says suggests superiority like that person in your neighborhood who while he's walking the dog picks up all the trash in the neighborhood. And you ask me, thanks, that's great that you pick up the trash and he talks to his eyes close and goes, oh, yeah, well, you know, I just try to try to do what's best for the neighborhood. That's what we're seeing. Some superiority there. But he shifts very briefly to past perfect. Not that I cleaned up a mess before, but I had been cleaning up before. There are two areas where I had been cleaning up before. And this shift from past to past perfect is a deception indicator, which means that once they pile up, then we're starting to see deception. And there's a brief uptick in the blink rate. It goes from about an 18 to about a 64 during this question here. And the whole story is about him and how great he is. And I know Dr. Phil, not only are you familiar with the law enforcement down there, you've worked in legal cases many times down there in Harris County. So I'd love to hear what you think here. Well, I thought this was a time that things started to get away from him a little bit and he panicked a little bit. And I thought his blink rate went way out of control because when I asked him about this, I did a assumptive presentation in saying there are some things you want to talk about. Well, let's talk about some of the suspicious behavior that you want to respond to because they look bad for you. And I said it as though we had some pre agreement that you want to answer these to clear your name. Well, let's talk about some of the suspicious behavior that you want to respond to. There were reports that when the police went into the apartment, areas had been cleaned up with bleach. At that point, he didn't know how to undo that. So he started talking before he thought, well, oh, I just I wasn't even finished with the last syllable before he jumped into that. So I just presented him with an an assumptive preface and you want to talk about this. And he went for it instantly. And I thought about halfway through the answer. I saw his he him start to color up in his neck right here and his cheek over here. And I thought, OK, this isn't as much fun as he thought it was going to be. That was really blown out of proportion. There are two areas where I had been cleaning up before by the computer desk that we use that Walmart off brand carpet cleaner. And it bleached the carpet two stains. They had been there for months. So you didn't clean up because of course what people think, right? They're going to be suspicious. They OK, fighting suit, blood is spilled. Right. Bleach cleans that. Right. Bleach gets rid of DNA. Right. And the first thing I did was tell Houston, CD, please go in there with a fine tooth comb and look at the apartment, please. I think he had an answer for it. But I think he thought, wait a minute, I'm not in complete control here anymore because he's got me answering things I didn't want to talk about. And he told me that I did and he didn't feel quite as in control as he did before. Excellent. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So huge asymmetry happening in the face between what Greg is describing there as I can't even do it with one of one of my I can't do it with one of my eyebrows. But that look of approval, look for approval with one. Then the other side of the mouth is doing something else. Now, always with asymmetry, you've got to check out. Well, is there some kind of palsy there? Maybe there's some different musculature. That that can be the face that can be the case. But but we see him do some symmetry in the face at other times. What he's got is this hugely asymmetrical expression happening now and again. And we see that expression throughout history in art as the expression of a trickster. Now, this this an archetype, the trickster, something chaotic, somebody who who dupes and it is kind of a lord of chaos, essentially. Now, you know, does that mean that that's what he is? No, what what history is trying to tell us is it's trying to say, watch out if you're seeing somebody who has two sides of the face very different. It's not saying, look, this is always the case. But history is trying to say, just just watch out for that because there's enough DNA information that says if you get that difference from one side of the face to the other, there may be some duplicity involved and you want to be watching out for duplicity. So that's why in art across the world, you'll see characters portrayed where one side of their body or one side of their face is extremely different from the other. And that's the trickster archetype. And you want to watch out because they are purposely trying to create chaos. Now, another moment where this trickster comes in is this idea of the Walmart off brand carpet cleaner. And there are two areas where I had been cleaning up before by the computer desk that we use that Walmart off brand carpet cleaner. So he's now blaming the quality. I mean, why is that? Why is that important? It's Walmart and it's off brand. Yeah, it is a chaff and redirect as Greg was saying there. But it's also that idea of, well, there's there's something which is a substitute, like it wasn't good enough. It wasn't good enough and it acted in a way that you just don't expect. So again, playing another archetype of chaos on us, trying to tell the audience, trying to tell Dr. Phil and the whole audience, you know what, this is just chaos. I mean, how could we ever get to a right answer or a solution when the world around is so duplicitous, so chaotic? Please, Dr. Phil, just pack up the cameras and go because, you know, you don't want to be around this kind of nonsense. We see the smuggers, the smug eyes that Chase was talking about there. We see him smiling as he's so helpful in this situation. There's just so much information in there that anybody you watching, of course, you'd go, there's something up here and something to watch out for. There, that's what I got for you there. We have we heard from everybody? I was, it was me left, but you guys have covered everything. You've done it. Everything's been covered from eye flutter to the bad bleaching incident that's got going on. So I'll just to save time, let's move along. Well, let's talk about some of the suspicious behavior that you want to respond to. There were reports that when the police went into the apartment, areas had been cleaned up with bleach. That was really blown out of proportion. There are two areas where I had been cleaning up before by the computer desk that we use that Walmart off-brand carpet cleaner. And it bleached the carpet two stains. They had been there for months. So you didn't clean up because of course what people think, right? They're going to be suspicious. They OK, fighting suit, blood is spilled, right? Bleach cleans that up, right? Gets rid of DNA. Right. And the first thing I did was tell Houston, CD, please go in there where they find tooth comb and look at the apartment, please. You were seeing loading boxes and blankets into Yes, sir. Her car that night. But you understand that what people then say, well, what's he putting in the car? I mean, there are clothes and stuff like that. I mean, they're office depot boxes and then blankets. And then most of our stuff I brought here in trash bags because I didn't have anything else to load them in. But you didn't come here intending to stay. You came here to drop him off. At first it was to drop him off and go back and then try to deal with it. But after talking to my family, they didn't want to see it start up again. She basically owns me in a lot of ways. And I admit that I caved to Michelle nine tens of the time. So, Greg, what do you got? So I'm only going to cover a couple of things. This I never hear anywhere else in the entire show. Her car that night. When you ask, what was he taking out boxes and stuff? He does and he's looking down into the right. We typically associate all of this down here with feeling, not with thinking. So when a person is down into the right, I associate that with emotion to their right. So when he's doing that and then he goes, there's a red flag for me. I want to dig in and say, OK, it was close and what? Close and her close and other. We know I think now that she wasn't in that first part, but people saw him bringing out boxes. And then when you ask him about going to take the kid, he says, at first, but he's tongue juts before him. You came here to drop him off. At first, it was to drop him off. Usually we think of distasteful subjects when a person pushes something out of their mouth. That's Desmond Morris 101. That's way back. He says that babies, the first way they learn to reject things is by pushing a nipple out of their mouth or pushing food out of their mouth. So if that's the way it goes, then, you know, it carries through. And then he goes back into more chaff and redirect. He's going to give you a lot of details about things that don't matter, but no details about the things that do. At first, it was to drop him off and go back and then try to deal with it. But after talking to my family, they didn't want to see it start up again. She basically owns me in a lot of ways. And the reason people, chaff and redirectors like an aircraft blasting out something for missiles to follow is hopefully you'll pick up one of those things they drop and follow it to ground. Hey, it was a home depot box. It was an office depot box. It was a whatever. All of that stuff is just there as a lead. And when you're interrogating someone, a lead is something you want to pick up and take information from. If the lead has no value, it's a dead end. That's what he's doing is dropping dead leads or cold leads so that she's hoping you'll chase that story down. Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, at this point, put yourself in his position and think about everything that's accumulated just in this interview at this point in this interview at this point, she has just miraculously disappeared from a bedroom. No car, no, no keys, no cell phone. And now you're, as you said, there's bleach all over the apartment. You're carrying out large boxes that a body would fit in supposedly full of clothes just to drop your son off and come right back. So you're you're packing up for multiple seasons to go drop a kid off and and and come back. At this point, you should be thinking if you're in a hole, stop digging. And but he's just he just keeps he just keeps going. Anybody that was reading the room or the situation I would have called in a bomb threat if I needed to get out of this conversation at this point. I'm on national television. This is 100 percent United States and 57 foreign countries are watching this happen. And I haven't been asked the hard question yet. And all of this is accumulating. And I'm still thinking this is going OK. That is extreme narcissism. And it's beginning to show up with ticks and blink rates and head movements and tongue thrust. He's moving in his chair. He's looking around the room. If he has taken any inventory of everything that's accumulated just in the last 20 minutes, he should have been exiting this interview in a fast, fast hurry. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I'm going to add to all of that stuff that you were saying there, Dr. Phil, about blink rate. The lips are going. This is very much off his former, you know, kind of cool, casual, confident baseline. But here's another baseline to look at Dr. Phil's. He's Dr. Phil, you've kind of flipped a switch now because because now the innocent has disappeared. Now Dr. Phil is in there. Really strong, direct, targeted eye contact as well. And I think that's heating the situation up. Now, if I believe Dr. Phil had started, if you'd have started with that kind of interrogation method, he'd have put up all kinds of walls, you know, we'd have never seen that state change and he would never experience that state change because that change of state unbalances people. If you can take them from one emotional state to another, they destabilize and they're going to make mistakes. So beautiful little kind of gear shift into that because now his shoulders are dancing. The blink rate is up. We have that upward inflection at the start and this lighter voice as well. Here's where we see him go. Here's his defense mechanism around this is he goes. He retreats back and to the side and goes for the victim status again. She basically owns me in a lot of ways and I admit that. Now, the reason I believe he's doing this is he understands consciously or unconsciously something of what we call the Cartman drama triangle, which is if there's a victim, it naturally means that there must be a persecutor. There must be a villain somewhere. And there must be a rescuer to this. So if I can play the victim, it means the audience will find an aggressor somewhere because if I'm the victim, there has to be an aggressor. So they'll find one and we've already set that up. OK, and we know who that is. That's the wife. She's the aggressor here and it leaves one role left, which is for Dr. Phil, which is you'll be the rescuer. OK, you'll come in and help me. Well, of course, what Dr. Phil does is doesn't take that role. He decides I'm not taking the role of the rescuer here. He stays right in the center of this triangle and he's just the inquirer. He's just like, I'm just going to ask more questions. I'm not going to persecute you around this. I'm not going to rescue you. I'm just going to ask more questions around this. You're not going to cast me in that role. And that's a problem now for this guy because playing the victim now isn't going to help. He isn't going to get Dr. Phil to jump in and save his life. At the same time, it's not going to cause Dr. Phil to be the persecutor. Again, any incisive questioning is still a question. It's not a persecutor. So nice try by our guy there, but effectively not really good enough. Scott, what do you got on this? I agree with Mark, but at the top there, when he first asked that question about loading boxes, you know, he says, you were seeing loading boxes and boxes and blankets into the car. He says it sounds like a little five year old. He says, yeah, and the aha is so high. It's like four tones up from that, four notes up. You were seeing loading boxes and blankets into her car that night. This is what I thought was a brilliant play was when Dr. Phil puts the who wants to know that's like, I want to know what he didn't say. So what's up with those boxes? He didn't say that. He said others want to know. You were seeing loading boxes and blankets into Yes, sir. Her car that night. He put the blame on other people so it doesn't drag back to him so he can stay in there with him. It's a great tactic. And it's, you know, it's a good one to use. This is why it's another reason he has north. The idea he's in interrogation. But you understand that what people then say, well, what's he putting in the car? Because when you start doing things like that to to replace the attack with somebody else, say, look, these people want to know this about you. What's that about? But you understand that what people then say, well, what's he putting in the car? That's a that's a you did that so well. Hats off to that. That's a beautiful move there. Only talks about moving the clothes. There are clothes and stuff like that. I mean, they're office depot boxes and then blankets. And then most of our stuff I brought here in trash bags because I didn't have anything else to load them in. It's just fluff. It's just it's just filler and fluff what he's talking about. Here I, Dr. Phil, there's what is he going to do? Take everything he owns there and then back for what? To just to drop the kit off. It's it's none of it makes any sense. But I think his anger starts to show. He talks about how he owns how she owns him. She basically owns me in a lot of ways. And I admit that I caved to Michelle nine tenths of the time. I think he might be those little nerds that always got picked on. And but he was really smart as a kid. And he knew knew, you know, he was not impressed and he knew more than anybody else. But I think he got tired of being picked on. He's got a girlfriend who does that to him as well. Because I think his personality probably leans the direction to let that happen. And so she's bullying him and being mean to him. And I think he'd probably just popped. I think he probably is there fighting before as he goes through this later on. They would get in these fusses and fights. I think he got close a couple of times because I think you're right, Dr. Phil, when you ask him if he was choking around, I think he probably did a couple of times and thought I could go that far again. But he got lucky the other times it didn't pop anything or turn anything off while he was doing that. And this time he lucked out and he totally it totally went sideways on him. And we start all that shoulder moving and all those things that just says he's he's not confident in what he's saying. I think as he's reliving those things, as he's telling these stories, it's it's triggering his limbic system. It's sort of making the money easy. So as he's going forward, he knows the things are going to come to an end. I think inside he knows he's going to he's going to give up at some point and going to tell because later on we're going to see him want to tell so bad, but he doesn't. So I think that that's his limbic system, saying not yet, not yet, not yet as he goes through these because he's reliving these things as he's talking about him. So that's what I got. Chase, what do you got? If I'm carrying a casket at a funeral, I'm technically carrying clothes and stuff because that would be an accurate statement. So I think that that is true to him. I think he believes that that's true. And I think when he's saying trash bags, that's when we're seeing those two single shoulder shrugs. Most of our stuff I brought here in trash bags because I didn't have anything else to load them in. And the single shoulder shrug to clarify what Scott was saying for you is different than double shoulder shrugs. You see somebody raise both shoulders. It's more likely to be an unconscious apology for what they're saying or what they lack in what they're saying. The single shoulder shrug is more likely to denote or indicate that they lack confidence. One of the best trainings I've ever had in deception detection came in psychology school where it was talking about the detection of malingering and when someone's faking an illness or a feigned illness. And they have so many things there that whether or not someone chooses to hide a piece of information is very telling. So if we're talking to a predator like someone who's accused of a sexual crime, a forensic interviewer, and I'm sure Dr. Phil, you'd be able to clarify this, but is whether or not did they try to hide their condition? If they're if I'm claiming I have a mental illness, whether or not they hid it from other people is very telling. And I think there's a lot of deliberately missing information here. A lot. Yep. Yeah. You were seeing loading boxes and blankets into. Yes, sir. Her car that night. And well, but you understand that what people then say, well, what's he putting in the car? I mean, there are clothes and stuff like that. I mean, they're office depot boxes and then blankets. And then most of our stuff I brought here in trash bags because I didn't have anything else to load them in. But you didn't come here intending to stay. You came here to drop him off. At first it was to drop him off and go back and then try to deal with it. But after talking to my family, they didn't want to see it start up again. She basically owns me in a lot of ways. And I admit that I caved to Michelle nine tens of the time. All right, we're good. Yep. Here we go. There were hard drives in the computers and you took those out when you left to come up here. Why did you do that? She took hard drives out of my truck. They were my personal drives that I had taken. So you drive around with hard drives. Yes, sir. Now, when Houston PD contacted me, I told him that I took the drives. Well, you said you would show them to me. Yes, I have the drives. Do you have them here? Yes. Can we look at them? Yeah, I'll bring it to you one second. No, I don't have them. He still has them. He's still copying them. OK, we can come back. OK, sorry. I thought I already brought them back, but he didn't. I thought I did, but I forgot. So you don't have them? I don't have them. So where are they? They're at a friend's house here in Odessa. He's an IT professional and he's the one extracting the information for me so that the drives remain in the state that they should be so that the police can investigate. You said you were going to show those to us and you got up and walked to the door and then said, oh, that's right, they're not here. But not 15 minutes before we got here, you told my producer they weren't here. You already knew they weren't here when you got up to go get them. My minuscatterbrained right now, I mean, I forgot. All right, I'm going to go first on this one. This is so awesome. We see that the mouth movement is becoming is becoming more predominant in this situation. His tongue is coming out and pulling that lip in. It's a little bigger than it was the last time. It's a lot bigger actually than it was the last time. And that lets us know there's an issue there for him. There's an issue here. His his his answer is prepared and he's running it as Dr. Phil finishes that question. As he starts delivering it, we can see he again, he has a structure down, but he doesn't have the specific details with it. And here's how we know because he says now. Now, when Houston PD contacted me and then he starts giving his story, it's like, say, all right, here we go. And then you then you give your story. Now, when Houston PD contacted me, I told him that I took the drives. As he's explained all this, he locks eyes with Dr. Phil because he's a little bit at that point. He's on. He's on notice for what's going on. We're all going to cover a lot of this stuff, but I'll get down to the part where he says where he goes and to get the hard drives. This is my favorite part. It's the worst acting. It's worse than almost as bad as that girl we had in the last video. Yeah, I'll bring to you one second. No, I don't have him. He looks like a like a fourth grader in the play of and he's playing a cowboy and he walks up like he's walking up going. Well, my name is cowboy Bob because he starts marching like that, then he stops the spake stop. But the thing that was the coolest thing in here, the most awesome thing you did, Dr. Phil was say, you can come back. OK, we can come back. OK, sorry, I thought I already brought them back, but he didn't. In his own place and his parents' home, you took the leading role in his parents' house. OK, we can come back. OK, sorry, I thought I already brought them back, but he didn't. You're telling what he can do and his parents' house up over his father at that point. Man, I just I just can't get past that. That was that. That was a great move. That was a great move. OK, we can come back. OK, sorry, I thought I already brought them back, but he didn't. There was a point at the end of that where he gave me all of that answer and I responded with just a look. And that's the point in the interview he knew and I knew this was over. Yeah, everything after that was window dressing. He knew I knew. I knew he knew I knew and he knew I knew he knew I knew. At that point. Well, if you go into an interrogation and you want to make a mistake, tell an outright lie that everybody knows you're lying to and then try to tell the truth after that or try to hide it after that, because you just played your biggest card. That's why I said, guys, go back and look at every one of these videos when he lies, he eye blocks. He raises his right eyebrow. He did it in this one. It's clear and it's evident. He did lip compression beforehand. He outright blocks. You can't miss him. I mean, in all my time of interrogating, I wish people would come in and say, hey, here's a big lie. And I want you to start my interrogation this way. And then all the real heavy stuff you do afterward. The easy part for me is he goes into kinesthetic. That whole feeling versus thinking and the indicator. So in intelligence interrogation, I'm after breaking someone and that's a euphemism for getting them to violate their own trust and talk. That's all it is. And a confession is breaking a criminal. That's that's a difference. There's two differences there. And what I can always tell is just before they break, whether it's for intelligence or whether it's for police interrogation is they'll go in internal conversation, get emotional, internal. And all they're doing is reinforcing whatever craziness they've thought up. And they're on the cascade then. But most people are not stupid enough to outright lie about something you already know the answer to. And then boom, that's Eric gets for you there. Chase, sorry. Yeah, I think that downward eye movement was exactly what I did when I was getting towards the end of the slap chop infomercial. And I actually ordered it, which I maybe shouldn't have. I bought a slap chop. I don't know what that is. I think I think it's great. This is a great illustration of the blink rate, just skyrocketing for a person in this video that you see that I think I'm in an open field and suddenly realize that I'm standing in a corner. And I'm not I'm starting to realize I'm not the smartest guy in the room right now. And that was that's a very hard hard realization for a narcissist like we are likely dealing with here that being accused of something they actually did is one of the worst things you can do for a narcissist. And this lip licking that we see here is a grooming hygienic gesture. So subconsciously, we say a lot of things that are going on in this person's head, a lot of it's unconscious. So a lot of these behaviors are complete. He's unaware of a lot of this. But we do this to improve our appearance for other people. And this is especially present when we're deceiving another person. Our brain says, the mammalian brain says, I need to improve my appearance. It's going to sell this thing a little bit better. And that's what we're seeing right away. And I think it's fascinating. Surprise it hadn't been picked up on yet, but he's standing there by the door when he turns around and looks back at Phil. And he's got one hand kind of covering his lower abdomen and another hand almost kind of covering his groin. And then when he starts speaking, his hands are flat at his sides like a preschooler who's in trouble in school. So we're seeing this guilt behavior and it's so fascinating that this is an unconscious thing. We're not seeing something that's conscious. If you take the amount of human history that we've been communicating non-verbally versus what we've been since language was invented. Language is pretty new for our species and that's why a lot of this stuff is hardwired into our bodies. That's why we're born knowing how to smile, frown, show disgust and all the other stuff. Mark? Yeah, I'm just going to say one thing about this and it's just something that we all need to look out for. I'm not saying it's happening in this particular interview, but it could be. So many people have commented on the lip action that we see from this particular subject, but I want you to check out that actually Dr. Phil does some work with his lips beforehand. Now, we've always got to check this out because if you've got a high status interviewer, sometimes you can get mirroring of that interviewer. So if I were doing an analysis of this, I might well go, okay, I just want to discount what happened in that person's lips because it was quite close to what happened in the high status interviewer's lips. I think we see it in the interview where Dr. Phil, you interviewed Jean Benet's brother, I believe it was and we see in that some, a lot of compliance from the subject in that. Nothing wrong with any of this, by the way, but I just think, you at home, you need to realize that some behaviors will be just normal mirroring behaviors, especially when you've got somebody of status. We copy the strongest, clearest signal in the room, that's the leader. Also, we copy the signals from the people who we perceive hold the most valuable resource, i.e. they are of high status. Now, not only obviously is, because Dr. Phil's on TV, he's known, that's gonna be high status, but also at this point, I think from a last video on, he's taken a lot of control over this and he's taking even more control. So I think what we're gonna see is a little bit more mirroring potentially, a little bit more compliance and we just wanna watch out for that. I don't believe it's happening too much in this particular video, but we're thinking about for others that you might look at. There, that's what I got for you on that one. Excellent, is that everybody? Yep. I'll like to say two things to give you, at least the viewer some behind the scenes things that were going on because they're not necessarily evident on camera. I think they're interesting. We're in his parents' house in Odessa, Texas when this is happening and he had driven from Houston to Odessa initially to drop the child off, which he did. Then he drove back to Houston because he had to deal with reality there and then he had come back, but we're in his house and it's maybe 1500 square feet or so. I mean, it's a nice home and a nice neighborhood, but when you bring production in there, you've got lights and production team and everybody's on top of everybody, so he and I are kind of sitting in a sort of an entry hall slash living room area and the kitchen is right over here to our left and there are standing his family members. Watching this whole thing happen. I think his mother was there. I mean, there were different family members standing there and I happened to be traveling that day with my son Jay who had graduated from UT and NSMU Law School and is very astute at interrogation and he's standing next to the mother and all of this getting up out of his chair and going back, the mother knew the answer to my question when he stood up and did that and she watched all of this unfolding and saw him caught in this lie and I'm watching her out of the corner of my eye and at that point, she knew. Oh, that's horrible, yeah, that's tough. Because I think up until that point, she and family members were all in believing and supporting him and I think at that point, she clearly knew he was guilty that he had done this and the entire tone and mood in the home shifted at that point and the disdain from his family had been there in support of him and all of a sudden, they were like leaning back in judgment, looking at him with disdain. I think they were sick at their stomachs at that point. I'm just saying the entire mood in the home and situation circumstance shifted at that point. That's why I say at that point, it was over. He lost his family and contrast to how I started out in the interview to that look that I gave him at that point when he said what he said and got up and moved. The entire thing had shifted to the point that his family was now standing essentially behind me like a firing squad looking at him and so the wheels were coming off pretty fast at this point. There were hard drives in the computers and you took those out when you left to come up here. Why did you do that? She took hard drives out of my truck. They were my personal drives that I had taken. So you drive around with hard drives? Yes, sir. Now, when Houston PD contacted me, I told him that I took the drives. Well, you said you would show them to me when I came here today. Yes, yeah, I have the drives. Yes. Can we look at them? Yeah, I'll bring it to you one second. No, I don't have them because he still has them. He's still copying them. Okay, we can come back. Okay, sorry. I thought I already, he brought them back, but he didn't. I thought I did, but I forgot. So you don't have them? I don't have them. So where are they? They're at a friend's house here in Odessa. He's an IT professional and he's the one extracting the information for me so that the drives remain in the state that they should be so that the police can investigate. You said you were gonna show those to us and you got up and walked to the door and then said, oh, that's right, they're not here. But not 15 minutes before we got here, you told my producer they weren't here. You already knew they weren't here when you got up to go get them. My minuscatterbrained right now, I mean, I forgot. Okay. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. Did you kill her? No, sir. You didn't do anything to her? You don't have her? No. In somewhere? No. Like I said, she has run over me. I've let her run over me. There would be those who said you finally got enough. She pushed you too far. What? Finally said, by God, that's enough. You know what? And you blew up on her. I didn't have to do anything like that. If she is watching this right now, let's say she's- She can come home. What do you say to her? She, we can fix this. We can fix to where she gets help. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so look, it feels really good because there's a lot of strong denial in there. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. So I think in his mind, he has really worked out. I'm gonna, if that question comes, I'm gonna deny, I'm gonna deny. And he's not doing a particularly bad job of really strong denial there. You don't have her hidden somewhere, says Dr. Phil, and we see just a minute I deviation over to the side. Now I'm gonna let somebody else, you know, maybe Greg go, you know, what might that mean, that slight I deviation? But you don't have a hidden somewhere and that strong but minute deviation, that for me says, you do have a hidden somewhere, don't you? You don't have her hidden somewhere. No, no. You have no involvement. You jump straight back into being the victim there, but there's lots of lip bites, she can come home, the eyebrow goes up, the smile is there. There's so much complexity happening all around this and incongruence. And so I'm gonna pass over to you, Greg. What have you got on that little eye movement there? Anything? Let me give you a few things, but little eye movement when a person breaks eye contact that way and they're going after a piece of information. If they're going down, they're looking for internal conversation, they're going to have a conversation about what should I say. The most telling thing in this entire video to me is he has been very polite. He's anchored on Dr. Phil's words and he's stepping on Dr. Phil trying to ask a question right now. That's rushing the answer. There's a lot of information he wants to get out. I think you're right, he probably rehearsed and he probably is accessing and trying to figure out what the answer is. Then he goes, I don't have to do anything like that. I don't have to do anything like that. Heavy swallow, set jaw, eyes locked. We've seen that before when he lied. I feel like right now he knows he's in a bind. I mean, we're about, I think he almost confessed at one point when he was telling you exactly what happened, I choked her one time and well, this was the time. So that's what I see Mark, that quick access is he's trying to recall what he's prepared but his preparation's gonna come apart here. Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, generally in an interrogation, I don't let someone deny it unless I already know it. At this point, as I said, this was over in my mind. I knew at this point, I'd bet the house, the dog, everything I had, this man had killed that woman. All of the evidence said he did and when he lied the way he did about what he did and gave the poor Shakespearean performance about it, at that point, I knew he had. If I didn't know that, I would not have let him deny it. If I had said, if you murdered her and he started to say, I'd have stopped him and not let him say no because once they say no, it's a hard face saving way to get out of that. I would have stopped him and you'll see in the next video, I trivialize it, I rationalize it, I do everything I can to make it easy for him to back into it and sometimes people have seen me do that on stage and it seemed like you were trying to justify what they did. In their mind, I am. I'm creating a short-term timeframe and I'm trying to trivialize this in their mind where it's not so hard for them to own to get where we're trying to go. That doesn't mean they're not going to be held accountable for it. I'm trying to get them to own it. But I didn't stop him from saying no because I already had the answer. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. Did you kill her? No, sir. You didn't do anything to her, you don't have her. No, no. In somewhere. And I knew it was just a matter of connecting the dots for Harris County and when they saw this interview, I knew they would bring the indictment and do the arrest and we can talk about what happened here in a minute, but that's what was going through my mind at that point or I would have stopped him from doing the strong denial. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. Did you kill her? No, sir. You didn't do anything to her, you don't have her. No. In somewhere. No. Chase, what do you got? So there's a double denial where he says no twice. No, no. Statistically in peer-reviewed research, this is more likely to be done by guilty people than innocent. There's a politeness spike where he says, sir, again to Dr. Phil. Did you kill her? No, sir. During this critical phase of the questioning and when right during the words hidden somewhere, you're going to see this small little shift in behavior. You're gonna see the eyes go down in an unusual direction, which flashes back to a different part of this episode, which we're not gonna cover here today, but Dr. Phil's standing next to his vehicle and he keeps reasserting, I'm trying to do everything I can. Nothing is hidden. Nothing is hidden. Nothing is hidden. And he keeps hammering on that exact phrase. And I think that that is the phrase for him. That's a trigger phrase for him. We're seeing an emotional response to it. And the campaign is just continuing. Dr. Phil, you asked a wonderful question. What would you say to her? And the whole message is, she screwed up, she needs help, not me, not us. We don't need help, she needs help and we'll get you some help. Scott? All right. I think coming out of the gate on this one, his answer, he answered the right way. He said no with that no. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. Did you kill her? No, sir. You didn't do anything to her? You don't have her? No. Somewhere? No. But after that, when you ask someone a question and you ask somebody if they killed somebody and they didn't do it, they're gonna say, no, it wasn't me, they're gonna go on and on and the more you ask them questions, the more they're gonna stick back with that, they're gonna keep going back to that and say, no, I'm telling you, it wasn't me, I didn't do it. We've all seen that. And at this point, he doesn't, he waits for the next one and says, no, no. And then he tried, then the anger comes out a little bit and he goes, no. And then you start poking on Dr. Phil or it sort of gets him fired up a little bit, gets him in there and gets him mad. You don't have her? No. Somewhere? No. You have no involvement. Like I said, she has no involvement. And this is when his voice starts going up and you can see and you can hear that anger come through. That's the first, that's the loudest he gets in this whole thing is during that. That should have been going on at the very top of that. When he came out and he said that first no was good but that second time you ask him, that's when we should have heard this anger. Did you kill her? No, sir. Everybody's covered, everything's off. I'll wrap it there. Did you do anything to her that would be considered foul play or criminal? No, no. Did you kill her? No, sir. You didn't do anything to her? You don't have her? No. Somewhere? No. Like I said, she has run over me. I've let her run over me. There would be those who said you finally got enough. She pushed you too far. What? Finally said, by God that's enough. You know what? And you blew up on her. I didn't have to do anything like that. If she is watching this right now, let's say she's- She can come home and- What do you say to her? She, we can fix this. We can fix to where she gets help. All right, we good? Yeah. All right. If you know more about this than you're saying, if you are involved with something that's happened to her, if you lost your temper and choked her too far or something bad happened, if you are involved in her death in some way, it is a tremendous gift to your son to tell me now when I can help you and I can help him. We, like I said- Because nobody ever gets away with this. No. Like I said, she walked all over me. She just owned me. I didn't hurt her at all. All right, Greg, what do you got? So really easy to tell that you're inside his brain case now. You're inside his head and the only thing that matters to him right now is what's going on right in that room. And that didn't start off being the case. He was in control. He thought he had absolute control, but now you're inside his head and the only thing going on is that little dance. You can see the sorrow in his brows as his brows are pulled down. You can see that he's come to realization that I don't know his sorrows about her. I think the realization is that, you know, this is over. I'm done. You can see it coming very clearly. Both eyes are down. One is down further than the other. His chin is down. Now, remember, we said his baseline is his chin's up because he's doing that arrogant look down his nose at you. That's down for him. And lots of reasons people could do that. Some people, because they have a do that kind of thing covered their chin or they hold their head up. Other reasons that people just get in that habit of raising their head. His chin is down now and that's throat protection. We always associate throat protection with pre-confession. They're right on the edge. All you got to do is reach out and touch them. You've already gotten him. You've already got him there. He says, we, and he does a long sentence before he says, no, I basically didn't do it. And then he comes out and I think what he's trying to say to you without losing face is she walked all over me. He's admitting all the stuff that you said and that is to me just stepping right into pre-confession. And then when he says that about her, his head's back up. It's interesting. He's back to who he is. He's saying she did mistreat me and and and. Like I said, she walked all over me. She just owned me. I didn't hurt her at all. But you can see all that sorrow. And I think he's just right on the edge of falling off the cliff there. Chase, what do you got? I absolutely agree with you. And he's still faced through all these potential guilt questions that Dr. Phil's asking, which means an innocent person not likely to do that. They're going to start shaking their head from the beginning. If they're not saying anything or erupting the interrogator, they're going to start shaking their head or they'll do what's called pre-denial behaviors. And none of that is there. So that's that's a humongous red flag. There's a smirk here with more duping delight at just getting away with this when he says, oh, no. And then you see a little smirk. He does Greg, you were talking about his chin being down with his pre-confession. He does lift it up once to talk about something that he's proud of. And I think this is the carefully crafted storyline of she owned me. Because we hear him say this a couple of times. And I think he's proud of that. But what we don't see here is a denial. We don't see a strong, confident denial of commission. And right at the end, we see something very telltale that we all learn in interrogation school kind of on day one, which is called severity softening. So instead of saying steal, someone might say take. Instead of saying rape, someone might say interfere with or touch. And instead of saying kill, you might hear somebody say the word hurt. And we hear that word come out here. So we see the severity softening here, which is another very large red flag. Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. She owned me Chase, because something just hit me right now. If you're owned by somebody, it means that you're a slave. And enslaving somebody is one of the top crimes you can do on the planet. So this idea of she owned me causes him to be a victim of one of the worst possible crimes and places the victim of this actual crime as a heinous criminal. It's kind of a brilliant move in some ways, but really not good enough. But I see what he's trying to do there with the idea of she owned me, the metaphor of I'm a slave, you must feel me to be the victim and this person to be the persecutor of a horrible, horrible crime. I often talk about the slow blink, the slow blink of acceptance. This is one of the best examples I've seen of what that rate is of slow blink. Dr. Phil says, if you know more about this than you are saying, go and watch that blink and exactly what rate that is. That isn't the blink of stress. That's the blink of saying, yes, I accept. In this case, I know more than I'm saying. I love to see that. I'm gonna strip that out and put that as the textbook example of the slow blink of acceptance. The last couple of things on this, I see what I would call waxy face. He's about to change state. He's moving from one really strong emotion to another and that transition of emotions often causes what I call waxy face where all the muscles relax. That's when you know somebody's going into a different state. And so I think just like you, there is the potential here that he's about to confess. He's really thinking about, I really need to move to a different emotion there. So beautiful waxy face on him there. Then the last thing, I didn't hurt her dot, dot, dot at all. Sorry, there's too much gap between the two. There's too much extra stress on that. My belief is, is you did hurt her a lot in this particular situation. Scott, what have you got on this? All right, taking into consideration everything you guys said, everybody's spot on. And I think everything we're seeing here when he starts hiding that neck, that chin comes down, he was in pre-confession, man. I think he was right there. Dr. Phil, you had him. He was so close. When I first started watching this, and at the top it says he confesses because we get that later on. We get that information later on. I thought this was it. I thought, okay, here he goes. And I thought you were gonna do this. I thought for sure. It would be out of character for you. Greg and I talked about this before. I thought you're gonna lean in, put your hand on his shoulder and say, listen, man, it's okay, everybody makes mistakes. I understand. And maybe start that little fake cry just like you're gonna cry with him a little bit. It's okay, it's okay. Tell me what happened. And because I know if you had done that, he would have thrown it all up. We know you can't do that in that situation. Greg, explain why, how we know that. Well, number one, with this family there as well. Like I was gonna say earlier, there's a lot of things that we could do that you can't do because you're Dr. Phil. I mean, you're this character that everybody knows and they have in their head a place. So you can't do certain things. You can't play dumb. You can't do that kind of stuff where the rest of us can. So there's that. But having the other nuance is having your whole family there. That's tough for a person who can do that. He was there. He was right there, I think. He was right there. Dr. Phil, what do you got? Well, nobody confesses in a crowd. He's gonna wanna get off. I'm thinking in my head, he's gonna wanna do this. He knows I know. And as I said, I know he knows. And it's just a matter of getting him in a situation where he'll do it. Do we have the phone call? All right, Sarah, I understand we have a significant update in this case. Tell me what's happening. I got a text message this morning at about noon from Mark saying, I confessed. I killed her. You can see it right here on the text. And I immediately called him back. So he's calling you from where? He's calling me from the Houston Police Department interrogation room. And he told me that he had killed Michelle. So was there a fight that night? Yes. He said there was a fight. You know, we were fighting and I, you know, she's swinging at me and I grabbed her. You know, the next nap, then I fell on the bed, choking her. And the next thing I know, it was over with her tongue sticking out. It was too far, it went too far. He strangled her. He grabbed her neck. He said that it popped. And he knew she was dead. He says that he covered her with a blanket. I covered her up because your kid wanted to come in and see what was going on. You know, so I covered her up, put her on the bed, covered up for the blanket, telling me that she was sleeping and, you know, started getting this blanket ready. I had to get him out of there. Did it happen the night that she went missing? It happened the night she went missing. He said the times are all the same as he told us. But when he drove to Odessa to drop her son off, he had left her body in the apartment in a closet wrapped in a blanket. What did you wrap her up in? When he drove back to Houston, he put her body into a container and he put her in the side, the backseat of the car that you looked inside. And he drove her and he put her body. He tells me in an oil rig, buried in a shallow grave with sand. He said, I want to tell you, I'm so sorry for bringing you and Dr. Phil out to Odessa, Texas. When Dr. Phil asked you, you know, now is the time, if you've done something to confess to me, did part of you want to? Did he say what precipitated this? Why did he do it? He says that he was sick of her controlling him and fighting with him and he wanted what was best for his son. And so he says he snapped. The way this unfolded is he called to talk to me and he got the producer, Sarah. And he said, look, I can't lie anymore. I just want to tell you, I did it. I grabbed her and I fell on top of her and snapped her neck. And I wrapped her up and I put a trash bag on her head so I didn't have to look at her. And what we know now, because he said so in court, they determined that he took his son to Odessa, dropped him off, drove back, got her, drove back towards Odessa and buried her in a shallow grave out near an oil field and then went on to Odessa where I interviewed him. And he called us from the Harris County Jail where they were following up and interrogating him. And while Sarah was talking to him on the cell phone, the Harris County Sheriff's Department called her on another line and said, he's on the phone confessing to someone. And we're getting it on the cameras. And she said, I know it's me. I've got him on the other line. And so they recorded the confession that he called to tell me and was giving to Sarah because she couldn't find me. So they were recording him giving the confession to us at the time. And so it was, I mean, it just all unfolded in a matter of hours after being there. So it started a process and it all did come to fruition and he did make the confession. And after making the confession was quite arrogant and went to trial and pled self-defense that she had attacked him and the jury was out very, very briefly. And gave him 27 years to life, something like that. I'm not sure what the exact sentence was, but they found him guilty in a fast hurry. Wow, you did such a great job on that. I mean, like we need to tell you that, but that's obvious. But wow, it really was from an interrogation point of view, man, that was really good. It really was surprising. When I taught, I'd always say the best interrogations when the guy has no idea he's being interrogated. Yeah, there you have it. And guys, try to imagine having an entire film crew, a whole ton of lights and the entire suspects family sitting there watching you do it. I don't think I'd be able to do it. That'd be tough, man, that'd be tough. Very nice job. Yeah, great job. It's a different situation and it's really different when you're on stage and there's 275 people in the audience. Plus all your crew and everybody there. And but it's, I think we've been able to do some good things across time and I've been at this for a long, long time. It is fascinating to me. I learned something every single time I watch you guys take apart these interviews and do the clinics and the workshops that you have. I don't care if people are in interrogation for a living, if they're in the work or study of this or not. People should absolutely take those classes and workshops because I think it prepares you for everything you do in life. I think it prepares you in the job market. I think it prepares you in raising your children. I think it prepares you in not getting the wool pulled over your eyes and getting con. It prepares you to find off the burning made-offs. It prepares you for every aspect of your life. And I think you guys are absolutely the highest and best use of the internet. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here. We really appreciate that. I really do. I think it's great. And I'm a huge fan and very flattered that you had me on today. Well, thank you. You're not as flattered as we are as you showed up. For sure. Trust me. I'd love to have you anytime. Anytime you see something we want to come back for, we'd love to have you. Yeah, thank you so much. We really do appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'd love to do it again. And I need to have you guys on my podcast and show again. We're going to crank back up in August. And hopefully we're going to have audiences and guests and everything like we did in pre-pandemic. So hopefully we can work together in the future because I think our audience is absolutely fascinated by you guys and the science you bring to the table. Well, thank you. We'll be there. All you've got to do is just let us know and we'll show up. I'm holding you to that. Oh, we'll be there. I promise you we'll be there. We'll be there. We'll be there and quick. All right, fellas, well, Dr. Phil, thanks for joining us and being with us. We really do appreciate it. I think this was another good one. If you want to subscribe, please subscribe. Down there in the bottom, you'll see a little red thing that says subscribe. Hit that little red bell and become a panelist with us. You'll be joining me if you hit the subscribe button because I certainly have. Thank you so much. All right, I'll see you guys next time. Next time. Deal, bye now. He knew I knew, I knew, he knew I knew, and he knew, I knew, he knew I knew at that point.