 Aloha. I'm Marcia Joyner and we are navigating the journey. And boy, what a journey this is today. My new best friend. And you know I only talk to best friends. Now my new best friend is Kenneth Lawson. And everybody in Hawaii knows Ken Lawson because he's on almost every night on television talking about the kelohas. And for those of you that are living under a rock or something that don't know in Hawaii about the kelohas, that story is much too broad and much too deep to talk about. But we're going to talk to Ken about Ken. And we'll leave the kelohas for another day. So welcome Ken. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule. Any time. Now you teach at the law school. Yeah. How many classes is that? I teach an area of criminal law, which is where I practice in criminal law. I teach criminal law, criminal procedure, evidence, the Hawaii Innocence Project, professional responsibility. I'm starting a new class next semester in a new clinic called the Civil Rights Clinic. So we're going to have our students come in and work on the actual civil rights cases for inmates and others in the Hawaii area so they can learn how to do this area of law also. Because I practice in all those areas when I was an attorney. So tell me where were you an attorney? In Cincinnati, Ohio. So you originally from Cincinnati? Yeah. Oh wow. Born and raised in Cincinnati. I practiced law there. But I did cases all over the United States. In 2003, I was recognized with Johnny Cochran as one of the top 100 black lawyers in the country. And so it's been done a lot of cases, like I said, civil rights cases, a lot of criminal law cases. So my famous client was Dion Sanders, old singer named Peter Frampton. I represented all those guys and I did a lot of cases with people that had absolutely no money. 25% of my practice was pro bono. In Cincinnati. Yeah. And what made you decide to come to Hawaii? Nothing made me come to Hawaii. I just ended up there. It just ended up okay. I mean I heard my shoulder lifting weights tore my rotator cuff, got addicted to painkillers, opiates, ended up getting prescriptions illegally, ended up going to prison. Oh yeah. Yeah, in 24 months, I was sentenced to 24 months in prison. In the meantime, my wife found a position here, a job here, because she was working part time. So after I got sober and after I went to prison, well, before I went to prison, we moved here in 2008. And when I went to prison, I came back. When I got out, I went to a halfway house here in Kalihi called TJ Mahoney's halfway house. And they told me I got 30 days to get a job or I was going back to prison. Oh boy. And so, before I went to prison, a law school had asked me to speak. There is a program in all the states for lawyers who have alcohol or drug problems, their lawyers assistance programs. So when I got sober in Ohio in 2007 and when we moved out here, it was part of my requirement that I go to the judges and lawyers assistance program in Hawaii to make sure I was staying sober. That was part of what I had to do while my case, my criminal case was still pending. So when I came out here and told them my story, they asked me, do you want to go share your story at the law school? And so I went and shared my story at the law school and then I went to prison. I went back to Cincinnati. I was sentenced to prison. I went to medium security prison in West Virginia. When I got out, I went back to the teacher, got out to TJ Mahoney's and then they told me you got 30 days of law school and found out that I was out. They said, do you want to come and talk to this year's class? And I went up there and I spoke of Professor Randall Roth hired me as a clerk. And then I got hired into the Innocence Project as a manager of the Innocence Project. And that's how my journey got me now to be in a tenured faculty member at the university and teaching the future generation of lawyers on how to try cases. Very good. Wow. That's quite a journey. My goodness. And so you teach all of those various... I teach more courses than anybody else up there at the law school. But you know, that's because I love teaching. And you got the experience. Yeah. But I love teaching. I feel useful. And I can ask my experience on to others, right? Yes. Which ultimately is what we're here to do. Yeah, that's great. Great. Now, when you talk about civil rights, teaching civil rights, of course, I go way back and fought hard for years to get the Civil Rights Act passed. And as you know, the biggest obstacle was public accommodations. That was the one that was the nastiest. And so everybody that's watching knows I was ready to sue our governor because of the hindrance of public accommodations when they vetoed the bill that does not allow medical cannabis, legal medical cannabis. If you have it, you can't fly from island to island with it. So I was all ready to go get him. So what I was told when I talked to a legislator that I'm ready to sue, he said, get in line. Everybody's ready to sue him for something. But I still think we need to do that. Absolutely. And again, I think that when I was in Cincinnati, I had the benefit of being trained by some of the historic figures, Fred Shuddlesworth, had his church in Cincinnati. Reverend Ralph Abernathy had his church in Cincinnati. And both of them, as you know, was sidekicks with Dr. King. Yes, absolutely. And so there's cases in the Supreme Court with Shuddlesworth. So they trained us in how to do direct action, civil disobedience. Yes. And God bless, you know, Frisch passed away a few years ago. But so here, there are things that happen here. And I don't see enough civil rights attorneys. You know, we have Eric Seiss and does a great job and a couple others that may do it. But so what we want to do, at least with this clinic, is to start students to understand this area of the law, why it's important, the medical marijuana, just all these areas that are actually civil rights areas and how you can use the federal court to change the law, no matter what the politician is doing. Well, and what I found out is how little they understand the, what is it, Title 10 of the Constitution, is it 10? Amendment 10. That says the state has to acquiesce, has to give up its right to the feds. The fed doesn't go the other way down from the feds down. It comes from the states up. Our attorney general didn't seem to know that. Yeah. And she says, well, this is what the feds say. So that's what we have to do. No. And 06, you remember the Supreme Court gave all of the states the rights to do their own medical care the way they want to. Now, if I know this, how come she doesn't? Well, see, so there's a policy that was enforced through the Department of Justice where they were basically saying, we're going to let the states do this, right? And we're not going to prosecute you, right? Even though we still maintain it as a law, right? So Eric Holder was very active in making sure that the feds didn't prosecute states that allow medical marijuana or just marijuana period, just legalize it, period. And anyway, but I do think that we're getting there. But I do want to sue. I haven't given that up because they understand because if the state of Hawaii issues the card to anybody that medically qualifies in all islands, and yet if you have a card and you live on Molokai, the closest dispensary is on Maui. How are you going to get there if you don't fly? Right. And then how are you going to bring it back if you don't fly? Right. And so I said this is state sponsored discrimination. Well, it is. It is. And you know the biggest obstacle in the 1964 Civil Rights Act, was state sponsored discrimination. Right. Segregation. Segregation. And so again, because if you can bring alcohol from one island to the next, right? Or you can bring your own medication, right? Oxicoton. Right. Which is a scandal too. Then you should be allowed to bring marijuana from one island to the next or within the state. And we're not talking about just anybody smoking. We're talking about medical. Right. So that's interfering with your medical rights, your healthcare rights. Right. It's a contradiction. Yes. Right. Because either you're all in or you're all in. Right. So either it's medical marijuana or it's not. If it's medical marijuana, then it should be treated like any other medicine. Right. And so I was like, whoa, but all of my listeners know. And yet we couldn't get any traction in that one. And even when several doctors wanted to talk to the Attorney General, she wasn't hearing it. But that's the beauty of the civil rights act. Like you said, you work so hard to help pass because we don't have to talk. We just go straight to court. Well, then let's do that. You feel what I'm saying? You've got to find somebody. You've got to find somebody. So talking about it is, because that's, everybody talked about changing and desegregation. Everybody talked about the woman's right to vote. Everybody talked about all these things, but it wasn't until you got on the other end of a lawsuit that then things got done. Because power can, like Frederick Douglass said, power can seize nothing without demand. That's right. Right. And so the Federal Civil Rights Act gave many people the ability and continues to do so. Right. To change law because it's there. The court is there to protect the minority, whether it's racial minority or medical marijuana from the majority. Right. And so if it gives us an even playing field underneath the Constitution, because everybody, you know, people voted where they wanted to vote, we may still be enslaved. Of course we would. No doubt in my mind about that. Doubt in my mind. But and another thing by the Attorney General saying that's just illegal, what it does under the ADA rules, any handicapped person with a card, because she said this is illegal, she made a blanket statement. You mean the transporting it from one island to the next? Period. Yeah. By making it a blanket statement, the ADA rules say that they will not protect a handicapped person if they are doing anything illegal. She just wrote off all of those people. Just gone. Without any thought to what that does to people. Right. But it still gets you back to what's your remedy. Yeah. So that's where we are. Right. But that's the only remedy I know. Right. Yeah. So we got to find somebody. Listen, we have to take a break and when we come back, let's talk some more about what's going on with the Innocence Project. Let's do it. All right. We'll be right back. Aloha. My name is Victoria and I'm a host at the Adventures in Small Business. This is a collaboration between US Small Business Administration, Hawaii District Office and its partners, where we showcase the stories of local entrepreneurs and small businesses, talk about how to start a business, talk about great tips for small business owners. Please join us every Thursday, 11 a.m. at Think Tech, Hawaii. Can you say mahalo? Aloha. It's Dan, the energy man here. You can see me every Tuesday at 3 p.m. here on Think Tech, Hawaii. We're not on Friday anymore, so don't be looking for me on Friday. I'm on Tuesday at 3 p.m. here on Think Tech, coming to you live and direct from the beautiful studios in downtown Honolulu's Pioneer Plaza. So please join me and we'll talk everything about hydrogen and clean energy, not only for Hawaii, but for the whole wide world. Aloha. Aloha. And we're back. And we are talking to my new best friend, Ken Lawson. And now you mentioned at the top of the show about the Innocence Project. What is the Innocence Project? So here in Hawaii, our Innocence Project represents anybody that's been incarcerated, who has a claim of actual innocence. So they've been put in prison for something that he or she did not do. If you did the crime, we don't represent you. So we use DNA evidence as a technique, one of our techniques to determine if you're actually innocent. And Innocence Project started back in 1993 by an attorney by the name of Barry Sheck. Why do we remember Barry Sheck? Right, so he was involved in the OJ case. And in fact, he was specifically bought into the OJ case because of his knowledge about DNA. And so he and Peter Neufeld started the Innocence Project in New York in 1993. They used DNA to show everybody that wrongful convictions actually occurred, that innocent people had been locked up in prison. At least 20 people to this date had been in prison and on death row. Some of them have been killed, right? And DNA has shown that that's just wrong, that they're actually innocent. And so we represent anybody in the state of Hawaii. Every state has one now. Oh, every state. Every state has one now. And every state is covered through innocence organizations. And so we all belong to a network, a worldwide network, an innocence network. And so ours, Hawaii's is located at the law school. I directed along with an attorney by the name of Rick Freed. He's my co-director. And so we have students come in, they look at the applications. And part of what they have to understand is how do you determine somebody's telling you the truth? So the students help with the project? The students help with the cases. And so part of what they're trying to learn is because, you know, people in prison want to get out. Of course. So some of them are going to lie to you. Oh, well, good. So how do you know who's telling you the truth and who's not telling you the truth? And so part of what the students have to experience is investigating those cases and then presenting to us why they believe we should take the case or why we shouldn't take it. So that, so they look at all of the evidence? Yeah, if it's available. Like you may have some people who have been in prison, we got a few people who've been in prison for over 30 years. And it's clear they're innocent. But the evidence has been destroyed. Oh boy. Right. So there's no more evidence from 30 years ago. There's no more clothing. There's no more rape kit. There's nothing left to be tested. The witnesses are dead. And so you have to tell this person that without new evidence, there's nothing we can do. Oh, that's heartbreaking. It is. Yes. It really is. It really is. Now you, I remember not long ago, there was a GI that you went to bat for. Yeah. So we have a couple of individuals who were in the military. One, the last month, the Hawaii Supreme Court reversed, actually appealed a reversal of his conviction. And so now he was finally exonerated through the Hawaii Supreme Court last month after spending eight years in prison for a crime he did not commit. And so right now, we're trying, we're working on the compensation aspect of it. So how much is a year? Your life worth? How much is eight years worth? How much should a person like that make or get reimbursed or get paid for years taken from your life when they're actually innocent? What happens? Okay. So now, of course, he got a dishonorable discharge. Do you get to reverse that? Yeah. So we're looking at, so right, so this just happened last month. And so our students- I remember the picture of him, yeah. Yeah. Our students and the, our volunteer attorneys, we're all looking to see what we had to do to get that reversed or now his dishonorable become, because he was a decorated soldier. Right. I mean, he just had an award for saving somebody's life. And when he gets back from tour, his tour and walks off the ship, he's, he's met by police that put him under arrest. And your whole life is shot. I mean, he had, he had a marriage, ended up getting divorced while he was in prison. Yeah. You know, kids that can't come see daddy because he's away at prison. And here you don't go, you know, a lot of our inmates are shipped to the mainland. Yes. So how do you really, how do you get hope? How do you build rehabilitation when, when the kids can't see their parents, because their parents are somewhere on the mainland and the only visitation that you get to have is over a screen? Well, so, so then you have to fight to get all of his back, all of that, whatever you can get from the military. And then another avenue is a civil rights suit. Right. Right. So you could, you see him on the mainland a lot, where they, you know, the inmates at their release sue the state for a wrongful conviction and get compensated that way. But it's still not, you know, and you talk, you talk to these individuals and it's like, you know, no amount of money. Look at the Central Park Jobric case. Right. Right. And Ava Divani's Netflix series, When They See Us, you have four or five young men. Yeah, five young men. And Trump still wants them home. Right. We were not going to talk about him. But the idea that you can at least give this young man some hope that you can, you can't give him back those eight years, but you can sort of help him go forward, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah. And now, not only that, but all the other clients that we represent. So we have several individuals whose, we had one that was in New York Times two weeks ago. Our clients been in prison for 37 years using the Washington Post in New York Times. And so hopefully we can get him out. But can you imagine what you were doing 37 years ago? And from that day forward, you've been in prison for something you didn't do. It's almost like if the police came on this set right now, it just took you away. And then you're not seen again for 37 more years. That is just so, so hard to think about. It is. But it's the reason why I went to law school, right? And it's the reason I think it inspires a lot of students because, you know, that idea of justice, that idea of doing good with your law degree, that idea of helping somebody turn their life around or saving somebody's life, right? Something that is instilled in a lot of law students. And I think this is a good way for them to experience it. I love the idea that the students were working on this. That is just such a good idea to give them real practice, real time, real lives. To meet real clients. Rather than in a textbook. Right. Because what makes a successful lawyer, people are always asking, how did you end up being one of the best lawyers in the United States? Because I cared about my clients, right? And so the only way you're going to learn how to care is to talk to them. They're not a name in a book. Well, yeah. Because with public defenders, they don't get a chance to talk to the person until the day of the trial. Right. They're so, so busy, right? So we can put a lot of money in prosecuting people. We can put thousands of dollars for the prosecution, and most, and right, has an unlimited amount of money. Right. Please force out their back and call. But if you get charged as a citizen with a crime, and you can't afford a lawyer, you get appointed somebody is so busy, that they can't really talk to you until like right before your trial. Yeah. They forget your name. They're looking in the phone, making, right. And that's not a criticism of the public defender. That's a criticism of the system. Yes. That was exactly where I was going with that, that there are so many cases and there are so few public defenders. I mean, I guess there are a lot of them, but they're not enough to equal. Right. Yeah. And it leads to the wrongful conviction. You know, and again, you don't have the time to put into a case. Somebody's telling you, look, I didn't do this. Right. Why don't you go talk to these witnesses? And because they don't have time, they don't have investigators. They're enough for all of them. No. Well, now, we only have a little bit of time left. And speaking of investigators and what about I got to do this or everybody will forgive, will not forgive me if I don't mention the K. Lohas. And who is paying for all of this defense? They're public defenders and they're wanting the state to pay. The taxpayers. How do we get away with that? Well, I think a lot of people are set because they thought that they could at least afford to pay for but again, keep in mind that our system provides for that. If you don't have the money, then the court has to appoint you an attorney. And we see through the system that a lot of times, those that have money and get good lawyers, right, walk away. Right. And so justice has a lot to do with, can you afford a good attorney? And it goes back to what we were just talking about. But here, yeah, taxpayers are paying for it. Oh, and that is a lot. How long has this been going on? Oh, man. The case? A couple of three years? And along with it. Well, yeah, well, the criminal case has, I guess, yes, since 2017, 2018. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so again, it's a good teaching moment for our entire state because I think that, you know, one statistic shows that if you live in a blue state or a red state, it doesn't matter. If it's all blue or all red, there's your highest level of corruption. Right. Because there's nobody to push back. Right. Right. And so there's the, and so, you know, our sharpens iron. And I think here, the teaching moment is that there's a lot that can be uncovered when you're doing wrong. You know, so you still got the head prosecutor still under investigation. We don't know what's going to happen with him. Keith kind of sure will be taking a leave of absence. Right. But he's getting paid. Right. Yeah. Wow. Wow. What a, now, but we all need to, well, everybody's following you on every moment of watching and that even that watching the evening news just to see what you have to say about it. Because, you know, I did a lot of high profile cases, right? And so, and so I used to be on CNBC, MSNBC, and CNN a lot. And so when you have a case like this, right, it's show time. It is. It's show, right. And so that's what was so disappointing about watching the trial. Because you want the lawyers to bring it. You know what I mean? And so everybody's down there watching it. And that was when they asked for the judge instead of a jury. Well, even doing it because I sat down for eight weeks watching the jury trial and it was just it wasn't as exciting as I thought it should have been. You know what I mean? It just could have been so much more fun. And a lot of that that goes on, as you know, that goes on in the courtroom. You're arguing the evidence, but you're arguing in a way because you want, right. So a lot of it is about the lawyer to whether or not that jury can be in dear to you, right. And you have to do that with with getting a jury to trust you, that you're telling the truth about the evidence, but you're telling a story in a way. The Lewis Hall story should have been, look, I got duped. Yeah. Yeah. Right. She, right. She fooled grandma, right. She fooled the uncle. She, right. She, she went to fight, fight all these other people. I didn't know either. I'm just right. I'm do just like y'all do. And that really wasn't the defense. I mean, that wasn't the defense that was presented. And I think he didn't want to hurt his wife. I think so. I think so. Right. So anyway, anyway, it is what it is. Yeah. But again, it's a good teaching moment. It is. Wow. It's been quite a time with you. What? Time is up? Time is up. Can you believe that? Oh, wow. Tell Jay to give us more time. Well, I was trying to respect your time. You said you had to leave at 12.30, so we wanted want to be sure that we did that to respect your time and live up to our commitment. Yes. And you will come back. Yeah. Because there's so much more to talk about, especially the Innocence Project. I really want to tell more about that, if you don't mind. Yeah. Well, thank you. Anytime. Thank you again. It's been a real pleasure. Aloha, and we'll see you next time.