 because we are diving into Pond with Mitch Stein, and this is going to be a super cool episode. So thrilled to have you here, Mitch. Mitch is the CEO of Pond. I've had the great pleasure of talking with you very briefly, and we are going to talk more about this tech solution and platform that you've created. But first, we always want to start every episode by extending so much appreciation and gratitude to our presenting sponsors. You can see their logos right in front of you on the screen. We are so immensely grateful to have each and every one of you to continue this conversation across the globe, coming up on 350 episodes. If this isn't it, we are really close to that. So we are really thankful for each of these companies to be here and to support each and every one of you, your missions, because they exist to help you do more good. So thank you to our sponsors, and thank you to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, and to myself, Jared Ransom, the non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And again, going back to you, Mitch, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's really exciting to be here, and hopefully I'm the 350. I know, I know. You know, I got a witness to you. We do know, because we have a pretty organized show schedule and everything. But we, I think it's next week, if I'm not mistaken. But I'm gonna look real quick, but you look. Because we should know. I mean, it's shameful that we don't know. But anyway, okay, Mitch, you were with us on the Chitty Chat Chat, and you said some things that maybe both Jared and I needed to hear today. And so it totally resonated to the point where I was like, okay, show's over, we're done. I got the message, move on. You had, so talk to us before we get into the topic upon. Share with us where you are and what has just happened in your world in literally not even what, 18 hours ago? 22? Yeah, I guess to afternoon. So yeah, I'm really glad you made space for that. Cause it's just so real. I think a lot of times in these conversations, everyone's like, everything's great. And like, I'm gonna tell you about how amazing everything is. We're hosting an event in New York City tonight with kind of the community members on Pond here in New York. And it was really popular. We had a hundred people RSVP. We had to change venues last week, which was stressful in and of itself. And we found a new great space. And then just yesterday, the building that space is in changed their capacity requirements. So we had to send an update to all hundred RSVPs saying we can only have 30 people on the floor at a time. So we're gonna ask you to pick a time slot. Luckily it's at like an artist's studio. So it's natural to have kind of a time to come and see angry people and kind of cycle out. And so, you know, as I was explaining that sort of just it hit me and it was really stressful. And that was like, let's make a plan. What can we do? We've got to email everybody. Let's set up a new event platform that puts people into segments that they can pick and opt in. That gives us a better read on who's actually coming now with closer to the date by putting that extra step in there. We're gonna move around staffing at the event. So someone's gonna be at security, someone's gonna be at the elevator up top to help us manage the numbers. And, you know, there's gonna be some confusion and it's gonna give us more opportunity to engage and talk with people and learn about them at the event. Yeah, that was my first thought. Is that you're gonna actually, this might end up being a blessing because you're gonna be able to read the room of 30 people at each time. And then as that changes, you'll get the lessons from that previous group, right? To be like, okay, let's pivot or whatever. And I think it's like, it's a very, that sort of fear of being human. I find this a lot in the nonprofit space of the perfectionism of like, your donor story has to be perfect, your impact has to be perfect, your grant application has to be, nothing can be wrong with what you're doing. It can't be messy. And I think that we've got, people get it that we're in a pandemic and it's evolving and they're very sympathetic to that and wanna be helpful and don't wanna be an added problem. And so I think it creates opportunity. Do I wish it had just been as according to plan? Yes, but we had tools, we had resources to change. And I think that's what was important to exercise here. And we'll see how it goes. Okay, so tomorrow is our fryer ask and answered, which is a great episode, Jared and I love it. It's very different, but I'm gonna ask a big, big thing to you. I'm gonna ask for you, if you could email myself or Jared before we start the show tomorrow. So you'll have a few hours, because we're Pacific time. Would you just let us know really quickly how it went? Yes, absolutely. Don't you think that would be cool, Jared? That would be cool because we're all navigating this right alongside you, Mitch, as you said, like so many people, we're in this space together and we're all doing our best, we're doing the best that we can and we're continuing to navigate. So I think that would be great. And yeah, thank you and good luck. I think, you know, best of luck to you and your entire team. So let's dive into Pond, complete pun intended, because I really want us to know what this new platform, what is the concept, what is the focus? Tell us about Pond and why this is something that you have designed. Yeah, of course. So I think the easiest way for people to think about Pond is it's like a dating app between nonprofit leaders and the tools and services that they need. It was born out of a gap in the sector where no one really knows what are all the platforms that do XYZ? What helps me with my fundraising events, my auctions, my donor information, my donation form, my website, my volunteer, like the list is endless. And I just observed from working with nonprofits that that happened in a Facebook group and then happened in an email thread and then they were calling friends and then maybe they're hired consultant. And it was just like, there was no centralization in it all. And it felt to me like that was really just limiting access for people, right? Like if there's no centralized place where people are interacting around the tools and services they're using, it makes it exclusionary to people that might not be plugged into a network or have the resources and have access to that. So kind of democratizing the whole system. And we knew we needed to be creative with it. It couldn't be a normal marketplace with the drop-down menu to go like pick the options and as if you're putting a trip together on Kayak. The reason we bring up the dating app example is because it's all about people being able to put some information out there saying this is what I use, the problem I'm facing kind of in their own words on their own terms and then providers of those tools and services able to kind of browse those profiles, those listings and can opt in to say like, I think I could help you but leaving it all on the nonprofit's terms to say another checkpoint to say, no, that's relevant or not before they get any contact or identifying information, they've kind of got a safe space to evaluate incoming offers. And the best part is anyone that they actually talk to through PON, they get $100 in their account for having the conversation. And that's the real innovation is we're taking marketing spends that that company could have been spending on a Google ad or a Facebook ad or all kinds of marketing channels and saying, no, we gave them direct access to see what people are actively looking for and there's a lot of value for them in getting access to that and being able to participate in the system. And so when they do connect with people they're gonna pay for that but we want most of the money to actually go benefit that nonprofit and help them be able to afford the stuff that they need or they're looking for or they're finding through PON. This is so innovative. It is so fresh, so creative. I love it because it really has come with the times. I myself am an expert in swiping left or right or left or right depending on what app I'm on. So I think it's really interesting to have some of like, not some like a lot of 21st century's connectivity that matchmaking system put that into a nonprofit sector platform to match services with maybe a consultant. Now, I have to fess up, right? Like as soon as you and I talked, Mitch, I put myself on Pond. So I am dipping my toe into Pond. I have done just about that. I've entered my profile. I haven't gone much beyond that because I was so amazed at the system. It's so amazed with your ability to see this need and to see this gap and then to provide a solution. So kudos to you, kudos to your team. I know a startup is not easy, a startup in the tech space, but I think you're doing a phenomenal job. Thank you, and I'm glad you brought that up to the honesty around like how you got started or and I think I look at nonprofit tech and it's really about empowerment. And I see a lot of similarities to like fitness or dieting, right? How do you make a change? You take a step, right? You take one step and we wanted to make joining Pond is free. It is anonymous. You can come back and update your profile whenever you want. It takes like two to three minutes. We just want the hurdles to be as low as possible for everyone so that they can take that first step and give voice to a problem they're facing. A lot of people don't even know, obviously I don't know the solution to my problem or I probably wouldn't have it, right? You might not know the right term to be looking for or the right product category and we don't want to put that burden on people. We say put it in your own words. What are you looking, what are you facing? What goals do you have? And put the work on someone else who like knows the problem they're solving because that's their job to reach out and explain how. And that's really, we want to bring that to people and make that accessible and not make it so othering or intimidating because tech is super scary and it's generated a lot of distrust I think amongst folks that have been in the nonprofit space for a while in particular. Well, and I want to invite everyone to look over Mitch's left shoulder as you're looking at him. It's the right, like look at that fun. It's a lily pad, it's a frog and then the logo combined together for pond. So it really is a very like inviting platform not to be intimidating. And I think, again, you've done a great job with the marketing and just the inclusivity when it comes to this. You know, I want to ask you about the overall arching issue for a lot of nonprofits is that, and Jerry and I have been talking about this because it's really been amplified in this last year and a half. There's been a reluctance to investing in tech when it comes to nonprofits. I mean, we see people, we see nonprofits are like, yeah, you know, I'm working off of a laptop that was donated and it's like 12 years old and bear with me, it's not quite working, you know and they don't seem to understand that when you make these investments, it propels you more quickly towards achieving your mission, vision and goals. But how do you sell that? How do you communicate that to an organization that's had a spirit of poverty when it comes to investing in tech? Yeah, I think most problems have a perceived and a real barrier, right? And I think that's our challenge with Pond is how can we structurally with the system lower the real barriers, right? If it's access to information, if it's education or just the ability to meet people where they are to get them started, to start getting them some funding, right, that stays on Pond for you to specifically spend on the things you're discovering there and building up over time. So I think that is a big piece of it is showing that we can lower some of those like structural barriers if you don't know what you need, you don't have the expertise, you don't have the money, you don't have the time if we can structurally lower those, that's a huge win. Now, a lot of the others are perceived barriers, right? It's how are you allocating budget? How are you, you know, there's still hesitation of like getting started on Pond as easy as it could be because there's real trauma, like there's real if you've had a bad experience of the product or you've just like had it drilled into you that 90% of your budget needs to go to the food for the kids you're feeding and your funders or your board or whoever isn't on board with you investing more in infrastructure and those longer-term investments. So I think we're in a position of acknowledging that that's the reality, right? So helping to lower some of the things we can and just creating space for people to engage without having to say, oh, well, I won't be able to afford it. I'll never get this approved. So I'll never have time to do that, right? So getting rid of the like excuse to not dip your toe as Jared said, like, I think that's huge because once we've seen people on the platform get started and they may have previously thought there's nothing that we could afford or there's nothing relevant to help us or my board will never buy this. And yet we've seen many people come through the platform and list and meet with some people. And all of a sudden they were like, well, wow, I was able to take this back to my team. I spent no time on it. I found a bunch of new things I hadn't heard of before. I got $500 from having five meetings and it made it a no-brainer pitch to my board to get started. And that covering maybe it even covered most of my first year, that gave me a lot of runway to prove the ROI on this investment without needing to have a budget battle. And, you know, so I think that that's how we tackle it. I mean, there's a whole other, we could sit here and I could wag my finger and say, like, everyone should spend more money on tech, right? And like, which I think that's a lot of, you know, I'm not born and raised in the sector. I started as an investment banker and then I just made a big pivot to move into nonprofit tech just as a passion area to learn more about. But for me, I was never one that was like, I'm going to come in here and start kind of shouting off the rooftops that funders need to fund more tech and like they should be more grant money going to tech. Like there's room for that and I'm glad people are doing that. But I also think people need to be focused on systems and human beings. And I think those are the two things we can really bring to bear, which is like, how can we empower people and how can we start to change the system? And, you know, that's my approach. You know, if these are big problems, you need a lot of different avenues of people trying to tackle overhead myths and funding gaps. Yeah. So Pond is fairly new. And I, what I find fascinating is perhaps you own this crystal ball that we've all been looking for, Mitch, because this is something that's come about really during COVID, but I don't think it came about because of COVID. And, you know, during this time, and we're still in obviously the global virus pandemic, you know, but so many individuals have gravitated to an increased technology ability. We have seen the ability to, you know, seek out the pond or pond because maybe the expertise you're seeking is not in your backyard, right? Perhaps that expertise you're seeking is in another community, but Pond allows that platform in a tech space to find one another and to have that connection. So that to me is brilliant. And I'm wondering if you could talk to us about, you know, maybe what Pond has provided in parallel with the advances of technology due to COVID. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of what you're talking to is around access and equity, right? So if you only ever had access to the thing in your neighborhood and the service provider in your neighborhood, you know, that is limiting. It's not ubiquitous and there are information asymmetries and information gaps. The person who's been in the sector for 20 years knows all the right people to call. If you're new and you're closest to the problem you're solving, you know, in an underserved community and wanted to start a nonprofit, you're starting so far behind of a network, of a knowledge base. And because there's no like, oh, you're starting a nonprofit, here's all the stuff you need to do and use and where you can go to find it and make it super easy that doesn't exist. Every step of the way seems like it just is so hard. That really reduces access and equity across the sector. And so I think by democratizing and making that sort of like ubiquitous centralization where, you know, so many things nonprofits utilize are either a tool like a software program, something digital over the internet where it doesn't matter where it's coming from or a virtual or digital service provider also doesn't matter if they're in your backyard. Now everyone can kind of access to everything. And now with that higher volume, you can start to find a lot of efficiency in the matching of people with what they need and who offers it. So I think that that is a big piece. And by the way, the equity and access is not just on the nonprofit side. You also gotta think about the vendors that they're supporting. And if most people took a hard look at their budget line items and the vendors they're paying particularly around tools and technology, they are going to vast majority be white straight men owned operated businesses because that's been the truth in the technology space for so long. And that's another thing I'm really excited about is the access for providers that are diverse owned and operated to now have access to a broader, very accessible pool of potential customers who then can also realistically prioritize finding diverse owned and led businesses because on Pond, we actually flag any business that's owner operated by in itself disclosed with diverse ownership. So people can just share, we're not in the business of saying like, oh no, you're, you know, you don't have enough of a woman or a person of color identity, whatever. It's all self-disclosed by the company themselves. And so then it's up to the organization to say if that's meaningful or not to them, but there's so much access generated in an equity on the provider side where we want people to be starting and building thriving businesses with all types of business owners generating that wealth and prosperity. And I think the nonprofit sector being a catalyst of that is so cool and so fitting. It is fitting and it's really an interesting thing because, you know, we always say you don't know what you don't know and the fear of making an investment or even opening up to somebody and saying, we're not successful at this. I loved at the very beginning that you made this very short statement about how often we fear to move forward because it's quote unquote, not perfect. And it seems to me like what you've created or the structure and the approach that you're taking, it will help you to resolve some of the problems of which you might not even know you have a problem until you get some of that expertise that just helps show you the way. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that perfectionism and a lot of that kind of white dominant culture that pervades a lot of the nonprofit space given the source of funding and like who the space has been led by for so long, it shows up in so many places, including like someone who's afraid to create an anonymous pawn listing because they're like, well, my question might not be perfect or I don't know, what if I don't know all the tools I use or I don't know the right, and it's just like, get started, right? You're gonna ask a question, you're gonna learn, it doesn't have to be so scary. And I think the urgency of the perfection holds people back in so many ways. And I think a lot of that is good, like obviously we want high standards, you wanna be delivering amazing care and delivering amazing work on your mission and treating your donors as best you can and all of that, but you lose a lot through the like wanting it all to be perfect. And I think applying that energy around perfectionism where it's due and like appreciating where it's not due, like something that you can just get started on and engage with and know it's gonna be imperfect and kind of like seize that, that's how you're gonna start actually to your point finding out things you didn't know because you weren't trying to paint this perfect picture like you've got everything going on. Because if you don't share what's actually going on, you're never gonna get the actual help you need. So it's like, what are you protecting? You're just holding yourself back. I was always one of those kids growing up. It was like, I'm too embarrassed to ask that question, right? Or please don't call on me because I'm pretty sure I don't know the answer. And so Mitch, one of my, and I commend you because you had shared, like you weren't born and raised in the nonprofit sector. And now many of our up and coming leaders are, which is fascinating, but I remember in my first fundraising job, the director of development was telling me, she was mentioning about our constituencies. And I said, what is constituency? Like I didn't know that word. And so the vernacular in the sector is very new. And I can only imagine how intimidating it is for someone that's new in the sector or this is their first job, but there's so much potential when we can answer these questions, when we can provide a platform like Pond to provide that expertise, because it is often really intimidating, very difficult to jump into when so many of us, me included, nerd out over this. And I just throw the jargon vernacular the link. Like that's just what I do because I've been doing it for 20 years, but I just want to fuss up to all of you. I wasn't born and raised in this sector either. Like I had to learn this language. So I love that Pond really provides that inclusivity for all levels, all levels of leaders. Well, it's changing. I think the other thing too is, I mean, look at our sector 18 months ago, we're saying and doing things in a way that we would have never, ever thought of, right? Which I love the disruption. And I am going to like say, give you a gold star, Mitch, because Pond is a disruption. It is an innovative disruption. And thank God, because it's time. We need it. Well, yeah, I think it's the important thing with disruption. And I like to think of it more of like an evolution. It's like a growing change as much as less of like a goal to break things in the way that they're done today. Because I do think that the worst driving for is like bringing everybody along into a better system and not necessarily saying like, oh, that's trash, whatever exists today. It's like, it's not about that at all. It's just about evolving with everyone. And a big part of that is, you know, because I came from a different background, I did a lot of fundraising and volunteer board service. And that was my entree into the sector, but I would not claim that means I have deep lived experience leading a nonprofit, which a lot of board members don't realize. I'm only so aware of that. But I think what has it allowed us to do is not think that we know everything, right? As a company and be able to say like, I'm a sponge, I'm talking to nonprofits every day, learning from them. And that's all getting incorporated into how we build this platform. But guess what? It's also changing every week. And we're learning from people that use it. And we are not saying it's done and dusted or perfect in any way. If it were, how boring would that be for us, right? Like we have so far to go in evolving it and meeting needs. And so I would just say cherish the outsider, whether that's like in yourself or in your team or in this conversation, that fresh perspective doesn't need to be threatening. It can actually be really exciting. And sometimes I think we're tempted and I've come across this in a space where it's like, oh, well, you haven't been doing this for 20 years. So how could you have a valid viewpoint or opinion? And the reason we have seen such disruption in the past 18 months is because there are like shifting environments and new perspectives. And that's what we're gonna need to evolve the space. I love the evolution and you're right. So many times people see disruption or they hear the word and they think of it as a negative connotation. And it really simply is this evolution of change as we continue to change and evolve for our constituency, for our community, all of this is necessary. How we deliver our services is evolving. And that's for everyone and we will continue to navigate that just for your event this evening. It's a whole new evolution. And I think the thing too, Jared, exactly what you're saying is that we in the nonprofit sector need to realize that our clients needs and stresses are changing. And so we look at how we deal with let's say the food pantry, food bank sector. It's not just about getting people food. It's about understanding what type of food they need, where to get the food, when to get the food, how to prepare the food. I mean, it's a much deeper discussion than I think a lot of nonprofits have had because we've just been like, okay, this is a crisis. Let's get the bandaid on it and move on to the next move. Yeah, and so I love what you've had to say, Mitch. I'm very appreciative that you actually showed up today because if it were me, I'd be like, oh, but I'm like, can't talk. I would be like, onto the real crisis of the day. And so I give you a gold star and a halo in heaven for actually taking time out to talk with us because this is really impressive. Please let us know how your staggered event went. I definitely will. I will definitely keep you posted. I'm sure it's gonna be great. I'm sure there'll be more surprises in store and I'm just excited to finally get to chat with some of the folks and that's what it's all about. It is, what you have been a really, I don't know, man, I just needed to hear some of the things that you had to say today more than you will ever know, really cool. So thank you from Julia Patrick for making my day better because I'm gonna refocus on some things in a different way. And Jared, I don't know how you feel, but for me, there were some things you said that were just like, wow. Well, it's really gonna be fun to watch your journey. You know, I give anybody a lot of credit who takes on a daunting task during a time that is daunting. You know, and you didn't choose the easy path and I think that's really exciting. So again, everybody, if you haven't met us before, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. We want to make sure that we acknowledge our presenting sponsors. And I was thinking as we were talking, Jared, you know, a lot of our sponsors because of the pandemic have really added digital components to their products and service line that they probably hadn't anticipated. Now that maybe it was on the drawing board, but they've really had to move and be nimble quickly. So we wanna express our gratitude to those folks because they afford us the opportunity to be with you every day. But we are thrilled and honored that you would spend your time with us to all of our viewers and to our sponsors and to folks that are watching us in our archive, even live, we want to remind you to stay well, so you can do well. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow.