 Two popes for summer, two for ever. Okay, stop. I'm tired. Always. I'm just getting my stopwatch ready. Oh, is it my turn? Oh. My throat looks okay. Welcome back to Spoonsville. Hello. Today is two popes day. The day where we covered two popes. Yeah, 2019 Anthony Hopkins, Jonathan Price. And now I'm giving 20 seconds to explain the movie to you. No, it's me. It's my turn. To summarize the two-hour movie in 20 seconds. Good luck. Okay, am I starting now? I'm waiting for you. Yep. And... Go. The movie follows Pope Benedict's attempt to get Pope Francis to take over as Pope. That's it. Only you had 10 seconds. Impressive. That's it. Yeah. What else do you need to say? I suppose. That's the gist. That is a gist. I wanted a gist. You gave a gist. Yeah. It was a good gist. Yeah. Okay. Now we go more in depth. We take the gist and we expand on it. I don't know. We haven't done this in a while. Let's expand on your gist. How did you feel when the credits started rolling? I felt really happy. It was a very fulfilling movie and another reflection piece. Yeah. I feel like we've been watching a lot of reflection piece type of movies. Yeah. They seem drawn to them. Yeah. Like a fly to a flyer. Like a moth to a flyer. Yes, that's what I was saying. I had a fly to a flyer. It was a beautiful movie. I guess Pope Benedict is much more conventional and Pope Francis isn't. He's a very much more, I don't want to say new age. It's kind of like the skateboarding kind of Pope. Yeah. And well, he also doesn't want to be Pope. He wants to resign as a priest of the Catholic church, but Pope Benedict doesn't want him to do that. He actually wants him to take over as Pope. Yeah. And so there are lots of things happening at that time. There's that scandal with Pope Benedict's assistant. Right. I think a sexually harassing or molesting or laundering. Oh yeah. I think it has to be with the Lonnie laundering or something like that. But there was of course also, as everybody knows, there's always been talk or issues with the Catholic church that Pope Benedict is also dealing with. Yeah. Right. And so that's basically it. Like you also get to see these two personalities. And I think in the end it's very interesting because one is quite conventional and the other one is less conventional. Maybe more liberal or more new age. And yet you still, I found for myself that I was still endeared to both of them. I think a lot of the times people have this notion of people who are conventional as maybe being, of course, sticklers for tradition, but also being closed off. Yeah. I don't necessarily think that. That's right. Yeah, living your life conventionally. I don't necessarily think that you're maybe emotionally closed off or less receptive to people that are different to you. I think it's just a matter of potentially like the kind of upbringing you had and also the kind of environment you were socialized in that has, like that dictates a certain kind of life for you and it's difficult to change. I think we all know that if you go up in a certain environment or if you're so socializing a certain environment, it's hard for you to adjust to a different one, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you are someone who's rigid per se. You know what I mean? It's a great part in the scene where they have a pizza at that point. I can't remember. Yeah. They're hanging out. They're having wine or something. They're eating something. I think I remember that. There's pizza. There's pizza. And Rat Singer or the Pope Benedict Anthony Hopkins character is, you know, he's like, oh, it's basically it's nice to have someone around to hang out with. Basically that's what he says. He's like, because he gets lonely at the top. Yeah. Even the Pope, the top of the Pope. Yeah. Sometimes we look at people in certain positions of power and just have this notion that they're very different from us, but they're not. You know, they are human just like we are, and they have the same kind of struggles that we have. A lot of times when you're in leadership, sometimes you're forced or when you're in a position of authority, you know, I think sometimes you're kind of forced to portray this understanding of everything and just the certainty and never show any vulnerability. I think sometimes you're forced to do that, or you feel like you're forced to do that, because a lot of the times people do have to put that kind of pressure on you. In a position of leadership, you expect that someone has all the answers, right? You don't expect, for example, if you go to the doctor, the doctor to say, well, I'm not really sure what's going on here. You know, I think I'm going to have to go read a book and figure out. And realistically, a doctor doesn't know everything. They are going to have to sometimes go back to their books or whatever. And even in leadership as well, like maybe political leadership, you hire certain people because you can't do everything, but it makes people feel secure. The idea of having an authority that all knowing figure, right, brings people, gives people security, Pope Benedict governs in that way with the conventional, in that conventional way of knowing that primarily people want you as a leader to be different, to have something, to seemingly have something much more, you know, to seem to have transcended like the normal human, the level of human interaction, like you know much more. And in order to make sure that people have that idea of you, you distance yourself from them so that they don't see you being vulnerable just like they are. You never allow them to see that humanity that makes you just like they are. And so you have dinner on your own because he had dinner. But at the same time, he does want that emotional connection, which is where when Pope Francis is visiting, he's like, he just wants to talk about anything like, I don't know, like music. They talk about sports. Yeah, they talk about sports. They talk about music and things like that. It's a very funny movie. It was a funny movie. It was certainly not a comedy. It was a drama for sure. But there were certain elements there that were nice, you know, and it really presented the complexities of humanity, right? Like being a human being and living within structures. Right. I think the Pope Benedict very much operates as a functioning cog of the machinery that is the Catholic church, which is a massive, which is massive. Maybe your teacher, for example, you follow a certain curriculum. You may not agree to it, right? You may feel like I would prefer, I wish I would be able to do ABC with my kids, but there's an entire system that is beyond you and you cannot afford to change and say, well, you know what? I'm not going to teach my students this because I do not believe in this. I'm going to teach them this. But the problem is when they go and write an exam, they're going to write an exam that is based on that larger educational system. So you have to align your teaching with the system that you are not necessarily in agreement with because it's for the good of your kids. Isn't it? Right. Maybe you have more like better knowledge that you could provide them, but that knowledge that you could provide them, they're not going to be tested on it. So you have to give them the knowledge that isn't really going to help them out. And I think a lot of the times people, when you're looking at a leader, a lot of us were very quick to criticize and vilify leaders without really understanding the complexities of leadership, without really understanding that that person isn't a single entity. It's not like Pope Benedict was here making all of these decisions, right? He's just someone, he's an usher for the Catholic church, and the Catholic church has been in existence for a very long time. And it is not something that you can just all of a sudden decide, okay, well, I'm in leadership that I'm going to change it. It's really difficult. And so for me, I think when people were calling Pope Benedict, oh, a Nazi or whatever, they were doing that with the idea that, okay, well, he's the one governing. He's the one in charge of the Catholic church. Like if you're a priest, you're in charge. And that's not the case. Humans always need a face to put, to attack on all the things going on, the policies. You can't memorize everyone's name that's responsible in an institution for making something happen. You just need a face to blame everything on. It's just easier. It saves time, I guess. It saves brain power. But yeah, and there's so many great themes in the movie. A lot of it's kind of a debate on how much of tradition needs to be upheld because you need certain foundations for humans to function and to make sense of the world and to have a certain sense of truth and reason to base things around. And then how much of it you need to be fluid and allow to other influences to come in and maybe new ideas. And that's a lot of their debate is the great scene where Pope Francis is saying, well, we didn't even have angels till what, the 5th century? And we didn't even have the idea that priests had to be celibate till the 12th century. So we're kind of making stuff up too. So we could also always change things like that. It's not static. We like to believe it is. It's also when a machine, a system, an institution is faced with declining membership, for example. What do you do? Do you blame modern society, you know, pop culture on people becoming immoral and decadent and really we don't need to change because it's just other people losing their way? Or is it, I mean, you can stay in that stance the way you want but don't you also want to hold on to your constituents? Well, maybe, you know, maybe it's worth at least allowing for a little more inclusivity, things like that. You know? And that's kind of what people are dealing with all the time in everyone's own life. It's how much do I hold on to how my family did things growing up, how, you know, community did things, how, whatever, the views on your country and everything. How much do you hold on to the things and then what things should be tweaked or completely thrown out. So what the two popes are going through there is what happens in everyone's mind as they go through life. Yeah. And everyone has a slightly different change, compromise, balance of the two. Yeah. The other thing that really stood out for me in the movie is the experience of these two people. Pope Benedict talks about how he, all he did, he was a very studious kid and he never actually, he read a lot, right? He's book smart but he never actually experienced life whereas Pope Francis did experience life. Like he was also, he almost got married. And so he has just that much more, I think I guess more of a tangible understanding of human beings, diversity in human needs, human desires and complexity. Whereas I think Pope Benedict doesn't necessarily have that which doesn't mean that he isn't someone who's available or open to differing views. It just means that he has a weakness, I would say. I think there is a difference between people who are conventional because they are rigid and people who are conventional because they weren't exposed. And I think for me when I'm looking at that I find that Pope Benedict was conventional because he didn't have that kind of exposure. And I say that because I look at when he's interacting with Pope Francis, it looks like he's completely, he's been deprived so long of that emotional and connection that we all want with people because he was just always so focused on achieving a certain goals since he was a kid. And so when you're doing all of those things, a lot of the times you are sacrificing a lot of good, pure human interactions, right? And so you can see that he's starved of it as much as he does, he has that convention that he's kind of imprisoned by still, but he doesn't necessarily like it. He does want that human connection that you see when he does get it with this person who's so rich in life experience and yeah, like emotional connection. I think that guy, that Pope Francis, Pope Francis is when you see, when he meets someone that has that empathy and is that vulnerable and is so open about his vulnerability, that is something that he's like, oh my God, you know, he's attracted to that. And I mean, to be honest, like really when I'm looking at it, I don't feel like Pope Benedict really, I feel endeared to both of these guys, to Pope Benedict because I think he was just a gentle person who was starved of that, just the raw emotional connection that we all want. And I say that because when you, when he's interacting with Pope Francis, you just see him just come to life, you know? And it seems that he's finally getting this thing that he was thirsting for, that depth of engagement with another human being that he's thirsting for and does not feel that he can find or source from other people because he's a leader and he has that idea that as a leader, you have to present in a certain way and you can't show vulnerabilities. You have to show that you're independent and you don't need anything. But then with this guy, he can be that way, especially because I think Pope Francis, just there are certain people that kind of make you feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable and to just allow yourself to melt in that people a lot of the times tend to hide who the parts of themselves that make them more vulnerable and less incredible or profound, you know, in the eyes of other people. Of course, this is also always a lot of the times of perception because I think if people portray their fallibility, as far as I know, as far as in my personal experience, we are all fallible, right? And if someone is okay or portrays that to me, it makes me feel like they're much more confident. I respect someone who owns up to their fallibility more than someone who tries and say and says that they are completely perfect and they never make any mistakes. So I think because Pope Benedict is in this institution, this conventional institution that makes him feel like he has to hide his vulnerabilities or the things that might make people feel like, oh, you're not made cut out to be a leader. Him seeing or experiencing this guy, Pope Francis, who's, he doesn't care about that stuff. Who's like, yeah, I am a human being and I make mistakes and I have, this is what I do. I like, you know, I go and I dance with my tango or whatever. And I do dance with other people with a partner, you know, which is of course, Pope Benedict asks him that because he's like, oh, you're a Catholic priest. You shouldn't be doing that. But he's like, yeah, I do do that, right? So when he does these things and interacts with Pope Benedict in that way, it kind of chips away at those walls that Pope Benedict, I think, has been forced to build. Not because he wants to, but because of the nature of his job and the Catholic institution. That's for me. I like the relationship between these two people because they were giving to each other in a way that I think sometimes is, can be really rewarding when you have wanted that kind of connection with people and you haven't been allowed to have it. And then you meet a person who just says, here, I am here, you can be all of that with me. I felt like that was the relationship. Totally. Scenes that stood out to you. Off the top of my chin, there are some really beautiful ones that I can think of, like again, like the one that you reminded me of where at the end when he's leaving, he reluctantly at first gets Pope Benedict to dance with them. He's like, oh, no, I don't dance. They do this. Yeah, yeah, I love that. He leaves and then Pope Benedict's kind of like, I think they have a hug. He comes in for a hug and he's kind of awkwardly kind of, you can see he's like, oh, okay, yeah. He misses him. I like the scene where again, he's like, oh, you play something on the piano, you know? He's playing a song. He's like, it's an old German hymn, I think he says, you know, and Pope Francis is listening to it and he's really enjoying it. They talk about the Beatles. He recorded his album on Abbey Road, but he doesn't remember where he's like, Abbey Road, yeah, okay. He didn't even know. Yeah, yeah. I like how that conversation when he, in the flashback, when he approaches the priest saying, you know what, you know, he's like, do you know what you're giving up? And he's like, yeah, I was going to marry a woman and I got the calling to become a priest. Yeah. And you know, that's genuine when it seemed like he was really in love with this person and still decided, no, this, you know, I can't ignore this, you know? And then the last one I'll say is, when Pope Benedict, you know, again, he talks about not being able to hear God anymore and he asks for forgiveness once he has switched the Pope, being a Pope to Pope Francis and Pope Francis does his, he hears his confessions and absolves him, you know, the whole movie is amazing. It was such a beautiful depiction of the stuff that really, that people need to actually, to truly live. I think living it involves having relationships with people and relationships where you can, you're really truly connecting on an emotional level. And by that I mean, a lot of times you can be spending time with people, you go out, let's go hiking, let's go to a club, let's go to pub, let's go to the movies. These are all just things that we do, but the most important thing, and I think the thing that people really need the most, is an emotional connection and for me that this movie was that. It was just seeing that with these two people. I wonder when people watch these kinds of movies, obviously this is based on a true story, but of course there's also the fictional aspect of things, but I always wonder how other people watch movies. If you're watching this movie, do you reflect on your own self, your own life, or are you just looking at this as something that is distant from you? Because, you know what I mean? I think everyone does it all differently. I believe that 100 people will watch a movie in a theater and there'll be 100 different people watching the movie after. Yeah, the movie in general is, for me, something that, a reminder that when you're assessing people's conduct, to never view them in isolation, like sympathizing with someone else's experience, even if they are, they have a completely different world view or completely different ideology. It takes a lot of energy though to take off your shoes and then find someone else's shoes and see if you can squeeze into them. A lot of people want to put their energy elsewhere, but it's important to be able to switch shoes now and then. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look like... Beautiful movie, 10 out of 10. Both actors are fantastic. Yeah. What was the other guy's name? Jonathan Price? Jonathan Price, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know his Spanish. Was it Spanish that he was speaking? Yeah. Well, I spoke a couple of languages, yeah. Yeah. Extremely impressed. I wonder if he knew it before, if he learned it from the movie? I don't know, but wow. I was incredibly in awe. Anthony Hopkins. Of course. Of course. That's why we watched it. That's why you watched it. And maybe that's... I don't know, you know, maybe the real Pope Benedict isn't quite as like, well, I think it helps in Anthony Hopkins is just so great it helps wanting to warm up to the rat singer, but... Yeah. Either case. Yeah. Beautiful movie. Fantastic. Yeah. What did you... Very, very fantastic. Have you seen the two Popes? Have any of you seen the two Popes? Are we the only ones? Will anyone ever comment? Will any? Let us know what you think and let us know if we're on the right track. Yeah. If we've got some, if we've got the right idea about them Popes. Yeah. Yeah. So 10 out of 10 ripe tomatoes. Yeah. Until then. Till later. Bye. Till tomorrow. Till next time. Yeah. Bye. Bye.