 Welcome everyone to our actually our fourth webinar in the Year Voices series. Year Voices is a one-year grant project that we started last fall and runs through this May. Myself, as well as my wonderful assistant Cara here, we have been hosting webinars as well as community learning spaces and our quarterly newsletter and really this project is about elevating student voices and bringing topics to you that may be of interest around I would say topics relevant when it comes to equity, diversity, inclusion and belonging and supporting one another and so that you can learn from even information professionals on how to navigate some of these topics and concerns within the field. So to learn more we are going to place our blog, our website in the chat so you can check out past webinars as well as our newsletters and if you have any questions please send them through the chat. We will be monitoring the chat for questions and we will address those at the end. I will say today's webinar is a little different. It's going to be kind of an interview type of conversational webinar versus a PowerPoint or presentation being shared. So with that I'm going to turn over to Cara to kick off our program. Yes, so as you already know the topic for today's webinar is on neurodiversity and college. Colleges are increasingly striving to address concerns around diversity, equity and inclusion and neurodiversity is an important part of this conversation. This interactive presentation will cover the basics of neurodiversity, how society benefits from neurodiversity and the impact of neurodiversity on the college experience. Student staff and faculty members will learn how to be supportive allies. So today with us we have Eric and like and Luna and Bruno Larson. So Eric and like is a clinical psychologist and founder of top college consultants, and he helps students with learning differences and emotional challenges apply to college. Dr. and like is on the learning differences slash neurodiversity and diversity, equity, inclusion committees of the independent educational consultants Association or IECA. And he was honored by the IECA with a making a difference award for contributions such as neurodiversity friendly college list. Dr. and like a neurodivergent adult and parent writes and presents on college admissions frequently and has been interviewed by various media outlets including Forbes. Money Magazine, College Confidential and US News and World Report. Luna Nombrano Larson is a proud autistic and dyslexic woman and passionate neurodiversity advocate. She has devoted her career to fighting for educational equity, including supporting underrepresented college students and pursuing their academic and professional goals. She is the founder and manager of the empowering autistic scholars mentoring and research training program at California Polytechnic State University at the San Luis Obespo campus, which provides inclusive community, pure mentoring, holistic support and professional development and research training for autistic scholars. She also conducts autism research and works to educate the neurotypical community about the beauty of neurodiversity and ways to create a more inclusive and equitable world. So let's start from the beginning. Whoever would like to answer first, what is the neurodiversity paradigm and how does this paradigm change how we view and treat people. I'm happy to jump in unless you want to, you know, you're muted. Okay, and feel free to add anything. So, yeah, I think the way I see the neurodiversity paradigm is being really fundamentally different from the previous paradigms like medical or disability paradigms is that it looks at differences such as autism, ADHD or dyslexia as being simply different ways that our brains are wired rather than defects, deficits or disabilities. So, you know, instead of being a failed neurotypical person, I'm a successful autistic person. And it's really a very fundamental shift in the same way that we look at genders or races in terms of diversity. It's simply looking at the spectrum of diversity in how our brains work. And not only that someone who has a neurological difference or a different kind of brain is not defective, but we may have a lot to offer because of our differences. It's not in spite of our differences. It's not by overcoming those differences. It's because we're different. We have unique perspectives and ways of thinking about problems and solutions. Yes, that is all I agree with everything you've said. And I just wanted to mention a couple other things. So some of the main components of the neurodiversity paradigm, along with what Eric said about this variability between people and how they learn is completely natural. And it's a strength for the human race and also that there's no one good way to be. Like the way that everyone is, the way that everyone thinks it's all important, it's all right, and it's all valid. And then the last is that it's just like other forms of diversity, including ethnicity, gender, sexuality. And you really need to look at it within our personal dynamics that our lives as neurodivergent people are really impacted by the reactions to us by neurotypical people. So that we do face a lot of stigma, prejudice, discrimination, and even abuse by others. And one last thing that I know a lot of people who don't necessarily agree with the neurodiversity paradigm because it makes it sound as if, oh, you know, people who are neurodivergent don't need support. That's totally not true, that we do recognize that neurodivergent people may need supports in different areas of our lives. And we just try and focus on creating support systems that are inclusion focused, that are really going to benefit us and not keep us from getting certain opportunities or anything like that. I agree with everything Luna said, I just want to underscore kind of one of those points that some of the challenges that neurodivergent people face, as Luna said, are partially because of the environment that we're in. And so, you know, if you think of someone who, say, travels in a wheelchair, you know, if they can't get into a building or can't get up a building, is it intrinsic to them or is it because there's a lack of elevators and ramps. It's a sort of a combination between our differences or abilities and the environment that we're in. And so sometimes, you know, high levels of anxiety, depression, suicidality, what have you, could be at least partly mediated by the challenges in the environment. And one other point, which is that, you know, don't just take it from us that being different has its strengths, lots of employers, including large employers like Microsoft have recognized the value of neurodiversity are actively proactively recruiting neurodivergent job applicants because they see their strengths. I'll stop there. That's excellent to kick us off, I think, around this topic. Can you explain, because both of you mentioned neurodiverse and neurodivergent, can you share what's the difference between the two? Sure. I don't want to jump in first every time, but so Judy Singer was an Australian sociologist who's neurodivergent herself, coined the term neurodiversity and conceptualized it as diversity in the same way that there's biodiversity. So there are many different species in the world and you can say, you know, there's biodiversity in an environment where you have lots of different species, but one particular individual or species isn't biodiverse in itself. So one individual can't be neurodiverse because diversity is a property of groups. So we speak of ourselves individually as being neurodivergent versus neurotypical that someone who sort of is in the mainstream or more common way of brains being organized versus someone who is perhaps in the minority and neurodivergent. But that being said, the terms are thrown around quite in a very diverse way. So, you know, language is language evolves. So even though Judy Singer who can point the term neurodiversity would object to somebody calling themselves neurodiverse language changes. I think part of that too, whether somebody says neurodiverse versus neurodivergent would be people don't like the idea of saying divergent because it means, you know, you're different and you're not doing it kind of implies you're doing things or you are different in a negative way. And so they prefer to use neurodiverse, even though it's not exactly accurate and it's not grammatically correct. But so that that might be a reason. And I'd also like to mention that so even though we consider ourselves neuro minorities, approximately 20% of the population is actually neurodivergent. So we're, there's quite a lot of us out there. So on the topic are on the vein of language. We tend to hear things like, you know, someone who has autism or someone who's autistic. So could either of you talk about the difference between person first and identity first language. Take this one if that's okay. So identity first language is basically language that leads with a person's diagnosis. So for example, I am an autistic person. And a person first language is really language that puts the person before the diagnosis. So someone might say, they are a person with autism. And while some people might not care what you whether you use identity first or person first language, others will have a very strong preference. And if you don't know what the preference is, go ahead and ask the person first. Myself personally, I prefer identity first language because my neuro divergence is a very big part of who I am, particularly my, my being autistic. And for me, it's the same as how Jim Sinclair, an autistic advocate and researcher put it. Autism isn't something a person has autism as a way of being it is pervasive. It colors every experience, every sensation, perception, thought, emotion and encounter and every aspect of existence. And so for me, my autism, my dyslexia, they have really molded me in a lot of ways with strengths and challenges as well. And I wouldn't be the same person without them. Yeah, I agree with all that. You can call myself a person with autism. So it seemed as strange to me as kind of a person with maleness or person with whiteness. You can't separate it from who you are. Or for someone who's gay to call himself a person with gayness. That makes sense. It's just part of our identity. Yeah, I think that that really makes sense, specifically when thinking about just identity exercises. I do one in my class at the beginning around, you know, you tell me and share with me what your identities are and then which ones are most important to you, in the workplace or in, you know, in your education. So identifying that for me helps me to understand and know then how to better address my students and interact with them. And that I think leads to the next question, which is really around, well, two parts here. What is intersectionality, because that's, I think what you're kind of alluding to with your example, Luna. And how does it relate to neurodiversity? I think that would be a great one for Luna to tackle as well. I have something. This is for the definition from the Center for Intersectional Justice. So the concept of intersectionality describes the ways in which systems of inequality, based on gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability class and other forms of discrimination intersect to create unique dynamics and effects, while neurodivergent individuals share some commonalities because of our differences, our different social identities. We also have many differences in our experiences, opportunities and barriers. So as an example, so I'm a late diagnosed neurodivergent heterosexual female Latina, who is also first generation and from a low income family. So some of the opportunities and barriers and discrimination that I am going to face are different than those, say that are experienced by a white male who is diagnosed in early childhood, who is from a wealthy family or a black trans female from a middle income family who is diagnosed as a teacher. We all have differences and that we need to kind of keep in mind. And so what that kind of leads to for me is that we need to be mindful of each of our intersectionality and that the fact that we all have valuable insight to share and that we must really strive to truly hear and understand each other and give each other the same respect and validation to everyone's feelings, and needs and what they're going through. Don't just assume because you're say autistic with ADHD that you're going to have the same experiences as someone else who's autistic with ADHD, you know, some person might have, maybe they can't afford their meds because they're from a low income family. Maybe depending on, you know, somebody who's Latino, maybe their community doesn't really support diagnosis or getting special assistance. You know, so it really depends on your your lived experience and we need to listen to each other. Yeah, I completely agree. Our experiences really do change how we navigate this world, you know, especially those who are neurodivergent and have, you know, other things that they may have personally experienced or have endured. I, for example, a lot of women or females or, you know, people who are born as female tend to be under diagnosed when it comes to autism because they tend to they mask really well. So, leading into that, how would either of you define masking and why is that important to know or to identify or see and other people. I just want to add something to your last point and I'll let Luna start with me asking if you want to, which is that, you know, women are highly under diagnosed with autism. My colleagues or co-authors and I researched 150 autistic adults around the world and women were more likely to self identify versus getting a diagnosis professionally. And I think that's partly because of the lack of diagnosis and when more thorough studies have been done, the ratio is not as unbalanced as the main research reports show. So, even though in most studies, males are diagnosed more, the ratio is not as imbalanced as it appears in the popular literature when more thorough studies are done. And also in terms of intersectionality, there is a significant overlap between the autistic population and the LGBTQIA plus population in both directions. So you see kind of higher percentages and significant overlaps there and lots of my students are gender non-conforming or trans, for example. So, Luna, did you want to start with the masking question? Sure. So, masking is essentially hiding your neurodivergence in order to fit in and appear neurotypical. It's a protective measure that individuals use, they're either consciously doing it or unconsciously doing it as a way to kind of try to avoid as much discrimination as possible that's aimed at neurodivergent people. It takes a significant mental, physical and emotional toll on the person because they're in constant fear that if they're unmasked, they're going to be bullied and or rejected for being themselves, which can cause internalized ableism, self-loathing, self-esteem, anxiety, depression, and also burnout. And additionally to that, it takes keeping up that mask takes up vital energy that you could otherwise be using to in better ways such as like academics, career, social life, self-care. You don't have that energy because it's going to keep maintaining that mask. And I want to talk a little bit about burnout, which is a very seriously debilitating effect of masking. It's per autistic researcher Dora Raymaker, it's a state of physical and mental fatigue, heightened stress and diminished capacity to manage life skills, sensory input, and our social interactions, which comes from years of severely overtaxed, overtaxing by the strain of trying to live up to demands that are out of sync with our needs. You can tell which one of us is the active scholar. I really appreciate all the quotes. Yeah, in terms of masking, you know, adult neurotypical people do not look the same as neurotypical children, right? That's kind of self-added into all of us. So adult, you know, autistic children grow into autistic adults. They don't grow out of autism. It doesn't go away. It's an intrinsic part of who you are. But autistic adults look different from autistic children. So unfortunately, lots of autistic adults have had the experience of having people say things like, oh, you don't seem autistic, or I never would have guessed. Which is actually not necessarily a compliment, even if it's meant to be. So, you know, you want to think carefully before you say something like that. And, you know, when you've been, and part of that is that if you've spent a lifetime masking, you're less obviously autistic than you might have been as a child. Children don't have years of experience, as many years of experience hiding that. But in our study, you know, the over 80% of the adults reported having been bullied in childhood as I was. And so you kind of learn just instinctively to try to blend in without even really consciously thinking, oh, I should do this so that I don't seem different. And when you've been doing it for a long time, it becomes so automatic, you don't even, you can't just instantly shut it off. You don't even realize, kind of have to untangle those threads to figure out how much of what I'm doing is me and how much is, you know, just trying to blend in. When you also have to, if you want to unmask, you have to find a safe space to do it. Because even if you get to adulthood and decide masking is unhealthy, it's bad for me, you know. But you also risk rejection again, you are just, you know, you have to worry about discrimination, you have to worry about losing your job, potentially. So it's, it's a very difficult thing to do, even if you want to. Thank you for sharing all of that. I'm going to move to the next question. What challenges do neurodivergent students encounter in transitioning to college? And maybe I think Luna, I don't know if you're going to start. If you don't mind actually starting Eric, because of your area of expertise. Yeah, I work with neurodivergent. Yeah, I work with neurodivergent high school students applying to college and transitioning to college and so it can occur in almost every area, you know, students who are just arriving academically in high school don't really encounter the academic challenge but some of my students do because sometimes in high school they haven't had access to some of the same courses that other students do, even if, you know, honors or AP courses are offered at the high school. They may be held back if they have an IEP there may be people on their team saying, Oh, we really don't think you should take that we're worried about the stress or, you know, or doesn't fit into their schedule because they have all these resource study halls or resource rooms that they need to participate in so sometimes it's a big jump academically and they can address that a number of ways like doing dual enrollment taking community college courses in high school to kind of get a taste of college courses before they start. So academic maybe one area that doesn't tend to be the biggest area one of the biggest areas is executive functioning and that is students ability to manage their time organize themselves, get things done. And so most of the students I work with have challenges in that area, and those challenges become much more prominent in college because in high school the day is very structured relatively speaking, many hours in high school, living at home having parents kind of oversee things activities after school family dinners homework, kind of a very busy structured day, and that kind of flips in college where there's relatively few hours in classroom, relatively little oversight, many hours where students have free. Those of you listening who are college students probably know what I'm talking about. So those who have been challenged with organization and time management really need to step up and kind of plan for themselves and schedule their time and think about well if I have an assignment that's not due for three weeks. How am I going to stay on track with that rather than you know start at the night before. And so there are various ways to address that that's a big one. And then of course socially there may be challenges you know if they're in high school. They may have been in school with a lot of the same kids since kindergarten first grade. They may not have had to make new friends for a long time they may have a couple of friends in the neighborhood that they're just you know very comfortable with and then you're in college and boom you don't know anybody you're starting fresh. It's a big challenge. And then there's the independent living skills area you know you have to take care of your own hygiene you don't have a parent saying hey you need to take a shower, or getting up at a certain time doing laundry, managing money, enrolling for class. So it's it's a lot of different areas and so students vary in terms of how ready they are for college and how much they need to work on those skills before they start college. I agree with all of that. And it's it's proven I mean neurodivergent students are very intelligent, very capable of doing it being successful in college. They just need a little bit of maybe different supports than some other students might. And it is very overwhelming that that transition to college. It's you're essentially starting life over in a different place, you're going to be living somewhere different amongst strangers, trying to create a social life, trying to effectively schedule your entire life. And not just, you know, academics is your entire life, you know, learning to about living with roommates, who are strangers. So conflict resolution, interpersonal skills you need to work on and then also different kinds of interpersonal skills such as like how to interact with professors how to interact with potential employers. For, if you haven't had a job before. Another big one is locating the resources that they need in order to be successful. Aside from any accommodations that they might get if they if they choose to sign up for like a disability center, which a lot of students choose not to sign up for accommodations because they're worried about getting found out as being disabled. And so once they they do find out like what resources they are eligible for actually asking for help can be very difficult. And following up is often very difficult already if you think about students who are already overwhelmed with just keeping their grades up trying to do anything over on top of that it can be very hard. So managing health and well being, making sure that they get their meds consistently if they're taking meds, making sure that they're getting exercise they're eating that they're taking breaks and getting enough sleep. They're feeling isolated and they have social anxiety, trying to navigate more adult interpersonal relationships. Imposter syndrome. A lot of students have suffer from imposter syndrome sensory overload which can lead to chronic exhaustion and just dealing with stress, anxiety and depression. In effective ways. Yeah, those are all great examples and great areas you mentioned stress anxiety and depression so I think about emotional readiness as well as you know academic readiness and social readiness as a clinical psychologist it's you know near and dear to my heart. In high school again students may have had a certain safety net they come home from school if they had a bad day maybe they lean on their parents or other folks in their network to help support them. If something happens in in college like you get a disappointing grade on a test or you're not getting along with a roommate or you broke up a room ended a romantic relationship, and you have an emotional challenge. You know what's your safety net going to be what's your plan going to be. If you have a plan if you are starting to struggle in college with anxiety or depression, and you have a plan in place, you know, I'll go back on medication if I need to I'll start up therapy if I need to again, I'll go back to the gym and exercise and start up meditating again if you have strategies and plans you may get through that. If you don't have a plan in place, you may have much more difficulty. One of the things that is beneficial for students is to create kind of a team for themselves of people that they can go to for help with different challenges. So a lot of students really benefit from having peer mentors. There's a lot of peer mentoring programs available on campuses, not necessarily for neurodivergent students specifically, but just in general, to make sure that you have a therapist, whether you know you have an official diagnosis or not but somebody that you can go to to talk to when one you're getting stressed out or if there's something specific that you need, trying to find a trusted faculty member that can be a mentor for you, having that maybe another faculty mentor that helps you with questions about, you know, your specific field, and then another mentor who can possibly help you with more, I want to say like more person to person support. So you just have to make sure that you have that team around you so that you have people to go to, no matter what is going on to help. So what about on the other side, how can faculty staff or even other students support neurodivergent students. That's a great question. I'm being in the college setting. I'm sure Lynn has lots of thoughts about it. I'll just say something quickly. And that is to, you know, don't assume. Ask, just as you would with with any other issue with, if someone discloses to you, whether it's your roommate or a student in your class, you know, I'm autistic, I'm on the spectrum. Find out from them. Well, okay, thanks for sharing that with me. What can I do to be supportive. Okay, so I do have a lot of things to talk about in this area. So keep in mind that neurotypical and neurodivergent people, again, they experience the world process information and communicate differently. There's no right or wrong way to do any of these things. The burden should not be on us to conform to narrow typical ways of being or communicating. So just realize that communication and engagement are two way streets, and we must each do our part to accommodate each other. Also treat us with the same respect, compassion and understanding that you would with any other person. Uncover and eradicate any unconscious bias you may hold against people with invisible disabilities. We are just as valuable and just as capable as any other person. And we have a lot to offer, even if we do things differently than you are used to. So here is some things to keep in mind regarding how we might communicate differently and kind of tips. So please be patient, kind, open-minded and non-judgmental. It is easier for us to understand you if you use very clear, concise and concrete speech. So please avoid using figurative language, idioms, sarcasm, etc. A lot of people who are neurodivergent kind of take things literally. Nonverbal communication can be difficult for us. We might have a hard time understanding or keeping track of your body language, facial expressions, tone of voice. Just straight out tell us what you need or how you're feeling because that's how we're going to be able to understand and react better. If you try and show us, we might miss it. Our facial expressions or tone of voice may not match with what we are saying, so please prioritize our words over anything else. Making eye contact can be uncomfortable. So don't think we are paying attention to you if we're not looking at you when you're speaking. A lot of the time it's also we're trying to focus on what you are saying without being distracted by facial expressions or things going on behind you. Let's see. Don't kind of search for hidden meetings in what we're saying. We're usually pretty blunt and honest and to the point. It may take us longer to process information and answer a question, so give us a little bit of time. Don't overload us with too many questions at once. Try to avoid open-ended questions for things that you want concrete specific answers for. We might ask the same question multiple times because we don't completely understand what you're looking for. Don't get frustrated or think that we're being disrespectful. Please just restate your response maybe in a slightly different way so that we understand. If you are a student, please reach out to your neurodivergent classmate to get to know them and invite them to join your group in class or even just to chat. They may have a hard time initiating conversation, but would probably appreciate your any friendly overtures that you make. Also, just understand that some people need to move around or stim to help them concentrate or regulate themselves so that they're feeling more calm and able to focus. And it's a natural thing for some of us to do, so please don't stigmatize it. It's very helpful for us. For professors and staff, do what you can to help develop accommodations that will allow us to be successful in your classroom, even if they're not required by the disability center on your campus. Many accommodations are actually left to the discretion of the professor. So some things that are helpful that aren't necessarily required are providing lecture notes ahead of time to help students figure out what they should prioritize in what they're learning. And also offering study guides, for example, so students understand what specifically they should be focusing on. Utilize universal design for learning guidelines, including multiple means of engagement, representation, action and expression in your courses and allow for different options for participation. Try to relate coursework to students' interests if possible because that will keep them more engaged. Set ground rules of respect and inclusion for your class and how students interact with each other. And create spaces where students feel comfortable and like they don't have to mask, but they can just be themselves. Pay attention to sensory aspects of the environment such as maybe the volume, background noise, etc. Include breaks during lectures and labs. And don't assume that because a student isn't participating in an in-person class discussion that they haven't done the reading or don't have any worthwhile ideas to share. Students have a difficult time coming up with answers and opinions on the spot because their processing time may be slower. They might have a praxia of speech. They might have social anxiety. So give them time to formulate responses and don't expect them to have an answer right away when asked. Hi, that was a mouthful. Oh, that's fantastic. I hope you write an article on that if you haven't already, Luna, because that would be a really useful list for folks. The only one I want to kind of highlight is the universal design for learning, providing, you know, multiple channels or ways for folks to access information. And an example that comes to mind may or may not be a perfect example of this is a while back I did an interview for the organization and website Different Brains. And what I liked is after the, you know, as a video interview like this webinar, they post the video on the website. They also post it in the form of a podcast, just an audio, and they post the transcripts. You've got three different ways to access the same information. Personally, I much prefer accessing information through my eyes by reading. So I almost never watch videos or podcasts. My daughter is always saying, Hey, dad, you really should watch this podcast. I'm like, you know, if there's a transcript, I'll read it. But that's just me. So giving people different options is great. You know, Luna mentioned giving professors giving lecture notes. That's just one way of giving someone a different way to access the information. Because if I'm sitting there in a classroom listening to professor, you know, I'm just not going to absorb as much as if I also have it in written form. And, you know, universal design benefits everyone. Right. So even if you're not neurodivergent, maybe, you know, you had a distraction in class, maybe you had to run out and go to the bathroom. And because you have those lecture notes, you now have, you know, more information that you would have if you had just been sitting in class or maybe you didn't get enough sleep the night before and you're just really tired and you're having trouble absorbing it. Everyone benefits with these interventions, not just giving special treatment to people with differences or disabilities. That's great. I, Luna, write an article. That's I was writing trying to write it all down fast and great, great tips. I will say within the iSchool for those that are here with the iSchool, we do have a requirement with and as you've probably aware Luna. So there's the video, the transcript, the captioning. I even include the audio, like I have all formats in mind for all of my lectures. And some that, you know, it's great to have other options to like if you prefer audio, we all learn differently. So having all those options for all of our students is really critical. I wanted to ask one question before we go to the final one. I wanted to ask, have either of you or has you come across this in your experiences or even in the literature around any differences for online education versus a face to face education when it comes to supporting neurodivergent students. Anything beyond, you know, the having the multiple, you know, the transcript, etc. I know it really differs, but having the ability to do asynchronous online courses versus synchronous and having the ability to respond like during class participation to respond via chat is very helpful. Or to be able to keep your screen blank, if you feel like it, or if you feel like you need to do that. See, for for lectures, being able to read like the transcript of the lecture, instead of having to watch the video. Of course, there's like, you're showing an example of how to do something, then obviously it's better to be able to watch it in the, the lecture, the video, but a lot of times for me personally it's easier to read the lecture transcript, because it's hard for me to sit and focus on a video. Great. Thank you for sharing that Eric did you have other thoughts. You know, just to agree with all of that. I've taken online courses that were asynchronous and found them, you know, very accessible and really handy, you know, people's energy levels vary at different times of days. So if it's asynchronous, you can log in and watch the lecture or read the articles at the time when you have the time available, and when you have the mental resources available. And yeah doing, being able to respond via chat I'm in lots of professional meetings and frequently a lot of my interaction will be through the chat I don't really like being the center of attention so right. I like just being able to type my comments there and also just let me kind of think and process rather than having to be kind of in the spotlight. So, let's go to our final question and then we'll address questions from the audience. What about neurodivergent faculty, what are some of their needs are they similar different and do you have any resources you might recommend for faculty. I just want to say one thing which is that, you know, if you, if you believe that neurodivergent people are, I think you said 20% of the population Luna, you know, plus or minus it depends on how you define neurodiversity. And that's going to be just as true a faculty as it is of students, you know, there's so much focus on providing programs and supports for undergraduates, graduate students, and faculty seem to be kind of left out of the conversation. And as somebody who's, you know, always looking for resources for undergraduates, I'm just really conscious of how they're so little talk about what is being done. And our is an environment made is conducive for faculty to quote come out our faculty comfortable approaching colleagues or administrators disclosing that they're neurodivergent and asking for accommodations or other kinds of supports. And again, I'm sure Luna has a lot more to say on this. I would say, and for faculty and staff. Yes, we have a lot of similar needs as students. But another thing is, you have, if you do disclose, there's the real very real, very real fear that you will be let go. And if a faculty hasn't gained tenure yet, you know, that might, that is still a very real fear. And the same for staff, they can be let go because often they're considered, oh, they're not a team player, they need accommodations that we don't really want to provide, even though they're generally pretty simple and free or inexpensive. They're considered as overusing resources and trying there's still there's just still such a stigma, you know, like there are people are always thinking like you're trying to get get more than is your do and you're getting accommodations that are benefiting you that other people are not getting. And so people don't like that, or you're not communicating the way that people expect you to communicate or want you to communicate and so it's more work to have to figure out how to communicate with you or, you know, Anyway, so there's a lot of things like that. There's a lot of feeling as if faculty who are neurodivergent aren't as capable as neurotypical faculty. And a lot of times to I mean just even getting to the point of getting hired is very difficult. A lot of the times, the problems that neurodivergent people in general have, it's not that they can't do the work and can't be successful. It's that they can't get through the hiring process, especially the interviews, you know, and because they're not good at selling themselves essentially. That's one of the big ones. Or for faculty, it might be that, you know, they they teach a little bit differently and maybe students don't understand about neurodiversity or you know, and so they might feel uncomfortable with that. And so a big thing is really to really change the way people think about neurodiversity and look at all the benefits of it. And we need to educate mainstream society basically is what it what it's going to take. So we need to have program like trainings at colleges where you teach about neurodiversity and the strengths and the needs of people and how to help them how to be more inclusive. And you also need to train, you know, the students about as well you need to train everybody and that makes the whole campus more inclusive of faculty, staff and students. Those things aren't going to change if we don't we don't get over past this stigma about neurodivergence. Thank you, Luna. I was just thinking about it's so critical to continue the dialogue and have these conversations as well as normalize it like we should be talking about this and we should be taking action and steps. No matter what our role is, whether and not come to the conversation from like the deficit mindset, but more from the and you said it really the benefits. There's so many benefits that can even benefit those that are non divergent. So it's, I think, so critical to figure out how we can educate normalize get this out there training have programs resources, this webinar for example and others. So thank you for that. I'm going to move to we've had several questions and we have I think about seven minutes so hopefully we can get to these three at least and if others come in. We can hopefully share with you them after and then maybe you can respond and we can share them out with the recording. So the first one was you mentioned that employers are starting to look into purposely hiring neurodiverse people. So how recent is the shift and do you believe it is nationwide or have certain companies or fields been making more strides than others. In my personal experience masking is still encouraged if not necessary in order to hold down a job. I would say it's really recent and you know every year I see changes in this lots of new initiatives coming online all the time so very recent and because it's very recent. It's not nationwide it's not across all industries. Some industries seem to be more proactive in this area than others I would say high tech and finance kind of stand out, maybe not the only ones but those are two that I've seen a lot of. And sometimes people get discouraged and think oh well you know I'm not a programmer so how does that help me well you know if a company like Microsoft or Apple or Google is hiring they need people in lots of different kinds of roles managers sales HR. Marketing advertising not just not just programming roles. So if you can't just go by the industry as far as you know whether your skills are going to be relevant for a particular company. So, I see a lot of exciting initiatives coming you know if you look at if you Google neurodiversity in the workplace or something like that you'll see a lot of organizations doing great work in that area there are also some neurodiversity diversity hiring platforms, like mantra comes to mind. That's me and t r a that's one example where if you're neurodivergent. There's a hiring platform that is more suited to you than you know the standard ones. I'll add to that. I got it is definitely very new and the last less than 10 years I would say some of the bigger companies that are are have been focused on neurodiversity hires is like SAP Wells Fargo Microsoft Northrop Grumman has just started an internship program. I will say that they're motivated to hire tech people for these positions right now because they really need to fill these tech positions and there's this positive stereotype of Autistics as being great tech people so engineers and mathematicians and computer programmers and such like and they're they're moving towards pushing cybersecurity as well. So it's not really across the board with with hiring yet, as far as changing HR practices and ways of conducting interviews in order to hire for other positions that are non tech at this point but hopefully that will be changing. Because yeah, they're one of the big things that a lot of neurodivergent people have in common is they're very creative and they're very innovative. So there's definitely hateful wall of doing jobs outside of tech, but I think that's coming. We're in all fields. Yeah. Thank you for that. Oh, go ahead Luna. Oh, I was just going to say that part of the reason that I started the program that I started is because I want to bring more Autistic and neurodivergent students into academia. Like, so that's one of the goals. That's great. Let's see if we can get in the next two questions. And then Luna, I'd love at the end if you can share a little bit about the the program or the grant and what you're doing at your institution. Next question. What are your thoughts on tone indicators for text interactions. Emoticons or emojis. Came into being for a reason. Right. Text doesn't have a lot of context when you're when you're sending a text or even an email someone when you're having a face to face. A verbal conversation. Lots of information is conveyed through means other than the words, your facial expression, body language, the rhythm of your speech tone of voice. Although some of us don't communicate as much that way as others. And so, in text, people have devised these other ways to add information that's missing. So, I think it makes sense but it also just sort of highlights the limitations of those forms of communication and sometimes if you're trying to have a conversation over text. There are some things that aren't really very well suited to text when I was a therapist I would often encourage couples not to have you know intense emotional conversations through text. Emoticons a lot. And text as well as in emails sometimes depending on the person that I'm talking to if it's somebody that I work with a lot who will not look down on me for using the emoticons but they're very helpful for me because a lot of times I can't gauge how people are feeling even in person. So, to be able to have the little pictures that show emotions are are helpful. Okay, I think we might have to pause I see I know Eric has to leave us that one. So, and I might have your name wrong, Lily, we have your question about the lived experience the framework, instead of evidence based we will get that to Eric and Luna and get an answer for you and share it back with attendees with the recording. But Luna, can you just briefly tell us about the, the program that you started over at Cal Poly. And so it's called the empowering autistic scholars mentoring and research training program. And it's essentially well it's going to be a two year program so the first year we focus on a peer mentoring to help the students, you know, find community on campus inclusive community with their mentor as well as the other autistic scholars in the group and ease staff. So they have a safe place to go where they can unmask, they can be themselves they can ask a question and get the help that they need without feeling judged. They can make friends have social groups do exercise groups, study halls to keep each other accountable for getting their work done. And also do some academic and professional development presentations, teach students the skills that they're going to need and then have them put them into practice conducting autism research that will then be the thing that what they create with the research will then be shared with other colleges and universities, so that they can be used to benefit their students. And another part of it is actually creating materials presentations what have you to educate the mainstream community about how best to support autistic and other neurodivergent students. Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that we will also make sure to share that with attendees. So they'll have a link to that. But I know we're at the top of the hour. So please join me in thanking both Eric and Luna for their time today and their expertise in this area very important topic that we all should be having ongoing conversations take it back to your friends right now and let's take some action. But thank you both. Well, thanks for inviting us and thanks for everyone for tuning in. Yes, thank you so much everyone for being here. It was a pleasure.