 Alright So, yeah, I guess the easy thing to say would be Rise of Skywalker was I mean I don't know how you feel about it specifically in as many words, but I thought it was a disaster Yeah, I'm curious. Do you think it's better or worse than the last Jedi? I've had that discussion with a couple people. We're doing a podcast tomorrow to go just quick just quick What what do you reckon honestly? I'm on the fence It's really so that the way I would break it down simply is I think TLJ does more damage to character But Rise of Skywalker has I think done the most damage to the legacy of Star Wars like it It's completely undone Anakin sacrifice, which was Does it not bug you how This last one feels way more like a product and not like sure it feels like it's trying to find everybody Like even if you hate the last Jedi and you know, I'm gradually getting there clearly At least it was one guy's like story and vision That's something that they're very yeah, I'm actually in favor of the singular writer director assuming They are able to handle it all and stuff and you know, I I would never have been on board with JJ taking the ending of the trilogy He's like yeah, I'm very familiar with his work and yeah Who else even wanted the job? It's like an impossible fucking job. I can't believe that's true I gotta be honest about like if well then again if I was offered like a billion dollars or able to do it I probably would be interested, but I would actually the money I would tell people like Yeah, I don't know if I'll be able to do it But I feel like I could have done better than JJ at least in writing the story because my god the MacGuffins man I think I think it's at it was actually an impossible task. I can't imagine Even Wade begin, you know, yeah, yeah, well, that's the yeah That's part of it. So a lot of people will say that you know TLJ was damaged because of the fact that it had to be a sequel to the terrible TFA But ROS or whatever you want to call it tross episode nine was also damaged by the fact that had to be a sequel to a film that Ended like everything ended. I don't even know where they were supposed to go Yeah, like I love that we open with ray training as if it's like, hey look Like that's my that's exactly I had I was like I can't believe this like the character's supposed to have progressed a little bit You know supposed they're supposed to be like in the last chapter of their their story at this point the one time She trains she loses to kylo Yeah, that makes sense They've made it like the complete reverse of how we understood it with luke Yes total pandering to To like feedback, you know, they're not even making their own movie anymore They're just making a checklist based on things people are saying online And so we we make sort of jokes about how like They take shots at tlj in the trailer by having a remaking the mask I never expected there to be so many So many blatant shots against tlj in this film It's like a bitter movie One of the weirdest aspects to me because it's like a hateful film almost like that was bothering me almost more than anything It's like, okay, you could have at least been A little bit glass half full about it like fuck me like there's still the middle film in the trilogy for god's sake Like it doesn't just not exist the way they just ignore rose. She's like kicked out of the film Yeah, like it it creates even more problems because it makes it just weirder that fin Doesn't even like talk to her about like the kiss they had or like this just there's no Implication as to their relationship at that point. Yeah, it's ignored Yeah, I know that's the tlj's retcon like the uh, they call hold those maneuver a one in a million shot I don't I don't think yeah, that just made me ask ask even more questions about it. You know That just made it even more distracting I would have preferred if they just didn't mention it because then you can just pretend that it doesn't exist But now they got you thinking about it just to try to appease you big target I don't see how she was gonna miss if she went straightforward if that's how that works I don't I don't understand Yeah, and there are like so many other more creative ways they could have tried to write themselves out of it But that was the way they took it All right, and and that's the thing if we ignore star wars and the last jet and everything else the film itself is godawful this is your standard sort of Writing issues the entire final battle Is is ridiculous. They say that the ships don't know how to go up on their own They have to have someone tell them how But they destroy that thing they win that just the fleet of Like death star enabled star destroyers like I can't believe that like what is in Well, what can be bigger than that? We've we've backs that we got an army of star destroyers mobile star destroyer. Well, I say mobile, but like more mobile and Yeah, it's insane. It's jj. That's what it'd be like all of those matches up with what he does um, yeah I compared it to star trek into darkness. Have you seen that movie? Yes, um without knowing anything about star trek I found it to be a action packed adventure, but listening to people break it down. I was just like, yeah, this is pretty bad Yeah, it has like a similar kind of problem where it's just pandering to fans of the series at the like most top level and not even thinking about their own story It's just what jj abrams does and he's done for so many of his films And didn't he make like a deal with water brothers for 500 million to start working on dc movies? He's uh, he's seriously He's wiping through franchises. You know, he's done with star wars Yeah, man Not impressed and so, uh, you've you've come to sort of don't appreciate tlj as much now. Yeah well Now we have to dial it back a bit. I suppose to sort of give some context as to this whole situation um Of course the main reason we know each other is because of my fairly controversial last jedi video where I was I was I attempted to sort of deconstruct the the reaction more than just talking about the movie and I don't think that's what people wanted but I was My logic was that everyone had already said everything They could about the movie and I didn't get like just a normal review at fast enough So I was like, what's the different angle I can take? Let's try and talk about the fan shit and It just it didn't work out ultimately in the end and I I regret that angle of the video And I wish I had just talked about the movie because I would have brought up the dumb shit because I always knew that there was a lot of dumb shit in the movie Like I joked about it with my friends once like I finished it but I hadn't had someone break down the actual like Plot and why a lot of it is like and point out things like one of the most egregious things about the movie being that On kanto bite those and the fucking animals and shit they like prioritized the animals over the the human children and like Human like smarter entities that are there that are implied to be like four sensitive Like just stuff like that like yeah, I don't have heard the counter It's like what were they gonna do taking to a war zone? It's like how about they hide for space to a safe place drop them off and then go to the water How about you just don't have any of that in the movie? Well, yeah, no, I agree That whole plot line is bizarre if if it had ended with like I don't know. I'm trying to think of like I shouldn't bother trying to try and fix it It's just that yeah, that was one of the initial takes a lot of people The main reason I like the idea of having the characters going to a planet and establishing a place So then at the end of the movie they can call back to a place that they've been to show that their message is being spread Like I understand what he was going for but it's through the execution It's the same with a lot of things in the movie like I really like the idea of taking luke to the place he goes in the last jedi But it's through the execution and just the lack of exploration That it it doesn't work on the same level that it really could and that's a that's a part that really That's like the most hurtful thing about it I think to people is just the Potentials it's like you get that little that little tease of something that could be amazing and your mind goes Wild just trying to imagine the kind of cool shit that you could be seeing I mean, it's it's fundamental right like why is it that we can't just have episode seven and we have Rays called Darth Vader and you're like, well, they're not the same character whatsoever It's like yeah, well it's been 30 years could have been yeah, like it's not how it works It's like well, we had a flashback. It's like that was like five seconds like with that We need a lot more than that. It's like well luke said the jedi have failed in the prequels that explains kind of his motivation It's like but that's so one-sided they did everything they could to stop emperor palpatine. That's ridiculous and so had have you gone back a bit on the On the fact that it went wrong with the last jedi and more so than just the whole direction of the franchise Well, so I'm the only the only significant interesting change I would have had since like two years ago probably would be that I think tfa went from like an okay movie to terrible The more I explored all the plot elements because I'm still working on my series to sort of get through all of what's wrong with that film I think it's the best of the three But it's terrible and that they're all terrible and that this entire project from disney was On its face a blatant way to just be like, hey, we want more ot how do we do that? Um, yeah, I guess I would concede that ryan was the one out of the two of them that seem to want to do Do something with it. I just uh, I don't really celebrate that when it's botched uh jj, you know, like I just said to the force of wigs I think is the best one even though it's a complete clone a really bad clone But I think he achieved that better than ryan achieved what he was uh aiming to do But yeah, I say in the video I just put up today about the new movie I talk about the last jedi and how I think about it now um What part was I thinking of it's such a fucking re-evaluation. I've got a pinpoint what I'm even talking about um What we're just saying about like luke and I mean, this is the thing just to clarify. I still kind of hate that movie I hate like the plot makes no sense The I hate the way so many characters are treated and how much they they don't care for cause and effect I appreciate the message of the film, but I just think it was botched like I stand by the Poe didn't make a bad decision in the opening um from the information we have and a lot of people will argue. It's like, yeah, but Pissed off lair like and and and those people died. It's like, yeah Yeah, he had to do all these things like if he didn't do that They'd all be dead and I'm sorry that ryan made it the way that he did But that's all I can conclude from the narrative. I look at it. I'm like, I don't understand what he did wrong Yeah, there's only so many leaps of logic you can take even in a silly space movie You know what I mean like there is then there needs to be rules that you saw Well, have you seen what's happening with Patrick Williams lately? Like he hates rise of Skywalker everybody said because he said uh, how fucking dare you to jj abrams And everyone was like dude taking this space movie for children a little too seriously now, aren't you and he was getting very frustrated Which you could imagine I I don't like to tell people that however they feel is uh over the top all You know like uh apathetic, right? Because everybody's different But like, you know the the guy who like cries at the trailers regularly like even I'm like, okay calm down, dude Like it's all right. It's all right But if someone said what you think that he can't because it's a kid I'd be like no just about anything really like Save that for like the birth of your child or a wedding or something But like watching us trailer for star wars movie that does kind of blow me away personally. It's fine You know and and you know good luck to him because I think I think that he's actually gained some fans from it And it's just like yeah, he enjoys his media fine But to you know, Patrick Williams made it a very significant point of his platform to be like you cannot take this stuff this seriously It's for kids and I'm like what? Wally is one of my favorite movies of all time Yeah, that's that's the wrong way to put it. What he should be saying is that He forgives things more than He doesn't with that franchise because it's based off old adventure serials Like that would make more sense. Well, he's clarified in saying that he was specifically talking about people who go out and harass cast members And as much as I understand that point, I completely agree with him That's totally not how it translated in his video And I don't think that's the point you was making in his video. Honestly, I think It's just why I even picked the fight Um, well, he referenced me in that video as well He said I don't care if there's a five hour video of a guy agrily rad take about hope she hates the film But I was like it's not what I did but all right, uh, right And you know, if you if you said what I was doing was taking the movie too seriously I just feel like no, I took it as seriously as I take pretty much any stories. I I like my stories. I don't know Especially Star Wars quite close to me. I uh Luke Skywalker was not someone I realized I cared about so much until I watched tlj Because I was like what the hell happened to you like You know, like when he's like go away. I was like, oh my god What the fuck? Yeah, I mean, it's a totally fair perspective and read on the movie like I get it big time Um, well, how do you feel about your video right now like that one back then? Oh my the the last Jedi video I put out. Yeah Yeah, I already sort of said like I regret the angle I I took and I wish I had just done a more regular review So maybe people would have understand did like where I'm coming from a bit better That's what I was yeah, that's what I was saying like I was reevaluating my new video my a more You know thoughtful Look back at the film because everyone knows the things that I like about it But they didn't really hear the things I didn't and the things I don't like about the movie I sort of said today, which are all the things, you know, everyone knows Like it's just reiterating, but it was the imbalance I think of that original video that pissed people off and led to this impression Well, there was the quote. I remember the annoyed me was the but the whole like Star Wars is a is a Series about finding the light or whatever and it was like why are fans like hating When they should yeah, that's that's very over the top Well, yeah, because it was weird coming from you as well because like I really like your takedown videos of stuff like Destiny, I've never played destiny and I really enjoy your video to just just yeah throttling it, right? And and there's people like isn't that series equally about trying to like Work toward the light. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's not consistent with the way I'd made videos before and that was a mistake to take that angle I mean, okay, I can't change it now. It's like it exists I'm not going to take the video down because I don't I don't do that I like leaving my my history up so people can see like I think it's important to show that your opinion can change Absolutely, I mean like I think it's really toxic to like I've been open the people into If you ask me what I thought of tfa four years ago. I'd have told you it was a great film Yeah And if you had me talk to me now, I'd be like you are really not looking and I watched I think it was er's video Where I was like, holy shit. Like I didn't realize so much about what's wrong with tfa And then I looked into it myself And just being a little bit more critically. I'd instead because I you know, I'm a big star wars fan Like jj knew what he was doing. He dangled them keys, man Like the millennium falcon Han Solo lightsabers. I was just like, yeah, that's his star wars I got my star wars and once it all dies down. You're like, what the hell was that? Yeah, because they just focus purely on the visual And relied on nostalgia for the as the substance, but nostalgia isn't substance. So that's a problem Um, yeah, I agreed. Uh And obviously, yeah, so timeline of events then rags made his response to you. Um Yeah, you were not happy with that response as far as I'm aware. Um, well, obviously, I wasn't pleased. No No, no, like this is the natural result anybody finds out there's a video on them. They're immediately going to be defensive. That's totally Yeah, and I have no problem with someone Like Disagreeing with me and going through why they thought what I said was ridiculous. I could I have no issues with that but obviously like It's just like awkward, you know, it's like when youtubers are making videos about each other like it's It's like picking a fight in a way, you know, like it's well I mean, you you know, you're talking to the guy who's we've responded to have now to more youtubers than I don't even know What are the That's what I mean You guys they think you guys are way more used to it than I think a lot of other youtubers are because And you know, I want to I want to clarify like our goal is never to to bully or destroy Like as much as there may be some kind of like hyperbolic memes about it Like we I don't know if you know if I've said this before but like our I want to say fifth episode We address a video made about me And the guy who made it came on to guest and we talked about his video and he's now become The most regular guest we have outside of me and rags So why why do you think that sorry excuse my voice people listening? I've got a cold at the moment. Why do you think there's like a A narrative spread saying the opposite then to that kind of thing Uh, I don't think what we do is common enough for people to not take it as essentially Like like if you watch us and you know, let's just say we cover a guy who says Star Wars is uh, is a show that is meant for babies. No adult could ever enjoy something like this We we might go like what a terrible opinion. That makes no sense at all. What a piece of shit Random words like that. I can totally understand if they felt attacked or whatever I usually don't go as far as like being like this person's a piece of shit I'll usually try and be devil's advocate as much as I can but I will Absolutely condemn arguments that I think are terrible and I try not to assume too much motivation unless I've got a lot of evidence which like I have with quinton for example But we don't have to get into that. Um, right the idea is that uh It's a couple of guys watching a youtube video taking it all piece by piece very seriously and assessing like what we think we've covered I think now like I want to say about eight videos in total not many But we played them and we've concluded these are actually very good We usually watch videos that were either sent in like fans really want us to cover them And we we we cover ones that um, we think offer a lot in terms of a vehicle for conversation We usually Like hey the if if person feels the misrepresented they can come on and talk about this with us, but they really respond well We've had several exactly. We've had now. I think like eight people drop in live when we're covering them and have a discussion with us Um on the video and then we promote their channel and it all works out really well But we can't expect that to happen every time and we do what we can sort of thing But we we principally will not remove the idea of insults because I don't know that like we're going to be in a world where we just pamper everything who we're just like I disagree with your argument. Here is why next argument You know, it's nice to have a bit of spice and entertainment But in in the same way if I cover a video That's covering me that says something like more as a fucking idiot. He has no idea what he's talking about I'd be like all right present your argument instead of being like i'm not going to watch this This is uh, they're taking it too far Right, I try to ignore the insult element if i'm going to try and maintain that people don't need to take insults that seriously um If that makes sense I guess but yeah, obviously, you know when strangers are insulting you and you know like Maybe exaggerating the way they're they're behaving for entertainment for their fans But like that's the thing about youtube everyone has their own Little area and their own way of existing and sometimes when they overlap they kind of clash in that way And I think that's kind of what happened Um with that whole rags thing because right because he respond. That's his forte. He responds to people That's always what he's done. He was very into star wars. He'd met me and then he saw your video Did disagree with it and decided to respond to it Yeah, and all all it did was Start the conversation at like a uh a toxic place really um because It could have all easily been avoided. Um if Like I could have I didn't know about any of you guys. I only found out about it because of people messaging me after that last jedi video And you of course doing you sure are you suggesting that if he likes sent you a message you might have been like, yeah How about it? Yeah, absolutely. Does that happen typically? well Yeah, yeah with other youtubers. I've often talked about um like films. I even talked with um You know the youtuber the act man. He's like a gaming channel. We talked with him about the last jedi I just really casually just You know just talking about the movie like you do with just friends So I have no problem talking to other people about it, you know Yeah, it's you know civil but it's that's just what made it feel weird to me from the beginning was just like Oh Well, I guess I mean similarly right if you had said to rags like send my message saying I think your video was extremely unfair I'd like to discuss it with you. He probably would have said yes And I actually did search for him on twitter to see like I said, okay, what the fuck? Oh, right. Yeah, he might have been banned at that point. He was but he was banned. So I And I didn't really search for it further than that because I didn't really know Well, I was just gonna say like the best thing to do if they can't find twitter This might even be the first thing is go to a youtuber's about page and just look for their business email That would be the best way to contact him. Well, the thing is like honestly This is the aside from that like Derek savage thing. It's the only beef. I've ever had with the The youtuber of that size at least So I don't really what I'm doing like what you're supposed to do. So I just thought I just ignore it Well, that's the thing right so if you kind of saying I Fucking disagree with the shit ton of what rags are said and I think it's unfair that you didn't contact me Before going through this video like I I thought that's the kind of etiquette that youtubers could have with each other, but I guess not I probably wouldn't have disagreed with that. I'd just be like I mean, yeah, you you can go as far as Sort of like we don't invite every single person we cover on eFab I just don't know if it's it's feasible or reasonable like if yeah We're interested. So we we see it as a sort of we are viewing youtube casually as one does And we'd like look at this video that's available. This person made public. So this person should be Ready and waiting for someone to be like watching it and possibly being critical of it or celebrating it. Like I said, we've praised and supported and promoted loads of different channels as we watch these Sort of things. It's just we take them as they come sort of Yeah, I don't know if it'd be worth to when you know, you're going to be covering a video Maybe maybe like emailing them or trying to tweet them or something just once just so there's something, you know So people like if they really want to and they feel like it's really unjust They have a chance before you know, like it's all You know, you could even have them on the show or whatever if they see it I mean as much as I understand it's like so if someone said Let's just say I know there's not not saying this would happen But let's just say you tiro and quintin did a podcast we watched my My rage on tlj or whatever and responding to a live. I wouldn't be upset. They hadn't told me I'd be interested to see it right I get I I just don't I just don't do this. You know, I don't really start beef with people I try to keep it just out of the channel because I just think it's also like it just never ends Everyone has like not fun to me. Everyone has a different idea of like what I guess the correct etiquette would be Yeah, exactly. What do you like up to date feel about rags video? um, well obviously like Well, here's the thing right like after I've like spoken to you and all these people and read all the reviews and everything And like adjusted my opinions on it like I can't say it was because of that video or Okay, any or anything because of that video perhaps talking to you specifically um was like a point where I started thinking about in a different way perhaps but I I don't really like the video obviously like I don't know how I could be expected to Like the whole point of the video is to make me look like a moron like how could I? um, I mean I can totally get why you would have that sort of reaction rags is His character is very confident and so he will often use like sort of responsive language that'll Definitely make the person look like like where were they going with that point? But um, yeah It was making me look like one of those, you know, like the normal stuff He covers which is like some pretty extreme stuff sometimes so it was like putting me in the same bucket as them Well, sure. I don't I don't know that he would say that. I don't know if he thought that about your video like we've It may not be intentional, but I think it does read that way For some people that's all. Yeah possibly. Um, so Then uh, tiaro decided to make his video on rags timeline wise I guess and I was uh featured quite heavily in it as well and quinton was the guest to Criticize both me and rags and obviously me and right. I'd seen a portion of it I believe I left a comment saying something like oh, hey, this is cool Um, let's get this discourse going. Let's let's talk this through I'll update the like I'll edit this comment as I'm watching it and I got incredibly disappointed immediately By a lot of the ways that um, they approached the arguments And I think I ended the comment with being like I'm not watching anymore Like this is they've gone way too far with a lot of this And this is when Yeah, this is when I'm I'm like not part of the story anymore like that that video was made independently of me Um, I knew it was being made, but I I added no Um, like opinions to it like it was totally their opinions Um, but before we get to like we any of the e-fap involvement you did Because this is this is if I'm getting the timeline right just correct me if I'm wrong But you left the comment on it that really pissed me off, right? Yeah, because I'd never spoken about it publicly at all like the whole rag thing up until then Um, and so that was like my point where I just vented, you know, I just left a comment just pissed about like Everything that went down because of it, you know, all the like bullshit that happened um, and then you saw it and Contempted me on twitter and that's what started our first uh actual communication beyond just like Third party reports, you know for clarification you consider that comment a mistake now do you or? I do I I think um You should be allowed to you know, do your thing on this side of youtube like and exist and like I have no problem with What you're doing like that's fine to me. Okay, and that was like the main thing I was saying in that comment And just pissed off like I don't always tell you it's just emotional about it. Yeah. No, I understand. Um It's like I I haven't forgotten because like I said I I told you like you're you're one of the significant people along with several others that inspire me to start my channel so And like I know that they like suicide squad I think is the video that I would cite for you, but um You said something along the lines of like if you think this video If you think this movie is good, like you have awful taste and I remember being like Even I was like fucking hell Yeah, yeah, that was I actually regret saying that right But um, there are other instances where you'll say something like yeah There are other instances where you'll say like something is so poorly designed or constructed or created in the movie sense You'll be like this is just objectively fucked like there's no it doesn't matter what your perception actually is personally You're just and the example I would have given to you and I cited suicide squad I think was just they have subtitles you can't read because they're the color that matches a background They just fucked that up completely and that's the that's the tip of the iceberg with something like suicide squad so um, we got to clarify all of that and um Again, like this I'm not in any way trying to push you anywhere or entice you but it's just because we get these questions all the time Did you feel like it was something to apologize for or not? What sorry? The car that said I was a childish car to said Oh, yeah, but you have to you have to also understand like I'd never like watched any of your videos I barely knew who you were and my entire perception of you was built around Like just comments left by people that I'd read like I mean it was just yeah So yeah, I don't I don't mean what I said in that comment. So Yeah, I do apologize for I apologize. I apologize to you in person on that call actually about that comment That's that's what I remember. Yeah. Um, yeah, I appreciate that a lot I uh, so in that conversation I think our first conversation was just about like trying to be objective about reviewing something and then we moved on to just tlj in general And um, yeah, and then we talked about marvel for like hours Yeah, I was gonna say correct me if I'm wrong But me and wolf like we did go try and go through like all of the significant issues we had with the last Jedi, right? Yeah, good. Well the call the context of the call from my end anyway, it wasn't about No, it just became about the last Jedi like we were just We were just chilling just talking about whatever and of course that came up and we just started talking naturally And it laid back sort of way and you just went through I assume what um Like you've all covered before like just but like you have in your brain now So you can just whip it out whenever you want. Yeah, like obviously it's been our Uh, our bread and butter if you will like we know the arguments back to front We know all the counters back to front like it's just been something we've been doing for a while. Yeah, so um Yeah, that obviously got me thinking and like You at a certain point you like have to concede you you can't you know You have to take the blow to your ego and accept the fact that like No, maybe I did read this wrong So then you got to think about like so what was it that I was really liking about the movie and I think I've discovered that but Um Again, so do you remember when we were like, is there any chance you could have anything publicly said about it? And you essentially were just like not you don't really want to Yeah, so, uh This is the part that I found just uh A little bit off to me I'm not used to talking about this kind of like behind the scenes drama type stuff But I guess I have to just to I guess to offend myself in a way Yeah, yeah, sure go for it uh But yeah, like so I found out at the end of the recording right after we've been um Talking for all the all those hours because it started late and it ended really fucking late What was it? We must have started talking at like 2 a.m. Yeah, we finished at like 7 a.m. It was ridiculously long. Yeah Yeah, it was obscenely long But I found out at the end when uh, we were retired that um wolf had been like secretly um, like recording me For for the duration of the disco call like without my knowledge, which I thought was uh Kind of a slimy thing to do and like an unprofessional thing. Um, even if it wasn't like spread around or anything, but You know, and so and his motivation was that Um, he wanted to show it to a friend. Yeah, just full context I believe the conversation was supposed to be between me and you and then you asked if you could bring in I think tiaro And then I told wolf in a p.m I was like, I'm actually speaking to you directly right now because I was blown away and he was like, holy shit And then I think I asked at one point. Is it okay if he comes in because I need a friend of mine And I know that he'd want to meet you So he came in and then a friend of his at the time was told that he was talking to you But he obviously couldn't just bring anybody in and so the person was like, I don't believe you that sort of thing And he was just like, oh no, I am and he did a um I think like a private stream And just sent the guy the link and he was like see there and then he just left it run And now the the contention comes in where let's say the conversation went badly And like we just didn't get on with each other and we thought that it was like not even worth it There's a good chance wolf would have deleted it The reason why he presented it to us as something to release is because he thought that the conversation went really well And it was like something fun for everybody to listen to But obviously what he hadn't counted on was the fact that me and you were just like, oh It was recorded like I remember being the way I operate because again, this is I remember hearing it in your voice You're a bit like oh And this is the thing like I know that we're going to be slightly different on this but like Me and rags have talked about this publicly. I I don't say anything Uh that I don't expect to be put online because of how the internet is and secondly if you're speaking to somebody who like There's different conversations I've had with different people over the time who have been like outwardly critical of all of me and my work Will only agree to a private discussion and so I half the time will recommend like Record yourself for safety in case something is said or done That is not representative of what happened just to cover your own ass sort of thing. However The conversation we had there was nothing Controversial it was just like oh, this is the movie. This is what we thought of it And you're like, okay, and you took a lot of thoughts into mind and then it sort of ended and I was actually Like like in the position of being like, okay Because of the fact that he hadn't let us know Um, it's probably not good etiquette wise to release it and we don't really need to Not hugely important. You could just we can you know, we can talk publicly about how hey, yeah You know mine might have been changed blah blah blah, but yeah, maybe not. However, it was If let's say it was a principle thing that was it like I just I just thought it was Really weird and it made me feel quite strange, you know, like right secretly recorded and be like, oh I didn't realize that was part of the deal here. I'm like it's the first time you've spoken. Yeah I'm coming from the perspective of knowing him really well I know for a fact he didn't do it with any ill intent The fact he hasn't released it I think probably shows that at least to a degree because that it was supposed to just fade into memory, right, but obviously pushing the story Yeah, I was never too concerned because I was like, well, I say nothing I'm like embarrassed of in there like we just talk about the movie in a pretty nonchalant way and like I just concede like Uh, which which I honestly think would have been fine But then it was the following week. I think that you said on sardonic ass that you hadn't heard any good arguments against TLJ and obviously we were made aware of that Then everyone was like, don't you have Um, any like evidence that he said thinking the wolf was like, well, yeah, actually I had recorded it and then I was like, ah Let's And I you can find it the past year and a half. I have been definitive on not releasing it out of principle Um, because it's it's harsh Um, yeah Because I I I criticize people for doing it like people release Dms that I've been in and I'm like you shouldn't do that, but okay. Yeah, it would be a scummy thing to do Yeah, and you know wolf hasn't released it either But it was like frustrating to listen to and then we have to tell people But that's not the conversation that was had and then we had loads people being like you get that more was lying Right, like he's doing it just to try and like bring down the credibility of ih everything Right And that was for my motivation for Um saying that which I do like I do not mean and regret like saying, um was Okay, it may seem petty to those listening But like it was because of that cool angle I was like wait was this like a trap or something was like what the fuck is this like now This thing they have on me. It felt really strange to me. I didn't enjoy that So it's just like, okay, maybe I should just like Not think about that for a while. So I just was like, okay, I'll just go back to how I felt before And then like over the past whoever long since That fucking film came out. It's just gradually just changed in my mind and I had the Why put it in my video today like why My new thoughts on the feeling of my my new thoughts on the film Mm-hmm Um as a result. So I mean and again That's part of why we're having this conversation to sort of merge the two POVs But um and also explain like why certain actions were taken because on our end We would just keep getting sent snippets and clips and comments And like one of them was you and a friend of yours discussing how like rags made a terrible video with no points and We were like why because that's Bitter about it If I'm like I'm a bit inebriated. I'm on my podcast with my mates. I'm just gonna talk shit, you know, right? But you get what happens next, right? Like everyone shares it. Yeah Yeah And uh, obviously I I'm still because at this point I was still always trying to find a way to have a conversation with you I was always like, let's clear the air. Let's get this done. Let's get this over with get that bad blood out of here and we nearly We nearly made something of a plan, but then it never sort of uh came to fruition in any way Um, I was playing less dead at the time. I think it's a while ago. Oh really? I remember killing a tank. It was epic, but you know, that's this epic gamer moments. It's not relevant Yeah, that's that's the annoying thing about all this like the conversation around our conversation is what the toxic part is Like whenever we have discussed the film It's been just like so laid back and like relaxed and We've just come to agreements and been you know fair about it and sure Like what you know, but then the discussion is so fucking talking about like it's a it's a world where everyone's retorting and quipping Um, we were happy to let it die Um, because we really would ever mention it But when we're getting sent this stuff and like when I saw that description in a video, I was just like, oh for fuck's sake again Um, well, yeah, because I'm still bitter about the rags video But it does stuff I get it. Well, that's if you It's weird because like I just I'm in my house by myself making these videos and you don't you don't truly understand how your video is read You know, like you're so biased towards your own video. You just have like No way to how to properly figure out how you're perceived. So like If i'm feeling angry in that moment, I might put some, you know, snide thing in the description Just because it like made me laugh at the time Mm-hmm Obviously, I saw it and as much as you were like, well, that was obviously a comment directed at rags. Um That video like this is context you you may or not may not be aware of it's fine whether or not you are but obviously Several months later, we kept getting messages about how tieros kind of destroyed Rags and quinton destroyed me and we were just like but they didn't and it was like, well, you know, you're not addressing it Can't help but feel like maybe you think you can't argue against it We were like fine and me and rags made a date. We committed to going through the entire thing We had references and again, I don't know if you know this but this is not only admittedly a fault by TRO but quinton as well In rags's video, he says it's weird that kylo doesn't use the force to save himself and he's getting strangled in the throne room if you remember Like you could have I haven't seen the film for a while It's when ray saves him by throwing the lightsaber to him if you remember she says ben and you like Okay, yeah, and it's like why wouldn't you just like force push the person behind him or force choke the person There's loads of different things you could do but you just pretend Oh, and that's not something they did in this film as they used the force a lot during fights I was like, oh, okay back on that I guess Like you remember this when they're like slashing each other and then they would hold each other's lightsabers away with the force I thought it was kind of interesting. I guess Um, but that was rags's point and it was edited in TRO's video That uh rags is complaining that luke didn't use the force when fighting kylo or vice versa in on crate And we thought that was really weird because it was like but he is using the force He's a force ghost person I mean, I can't comment on any of this because I didn't write of course all i'm doing is giving you some context and uh There was another one as to what keeps escalating that yeah And so we were very unhappy with all of that we we we got through it all we had TRO on we presented it all to him And he was like, yeah, this isn't great. Um a few more months down the line. He's unlisted the video now I as far as I know it's still unlisted And quintin publicly said that uh, yeah, sure you made an editing mistake But it doesn't really matter because the point still stands and we were like, no it doesn't quintin's not Um got a great reputation when it comes to efab But the the point is that saga ended Um, we'd we'd addressed it we moved on but then obviously like there's just those pieces left That just weren't made up and I just always felt like it was because I'd never got to speak to you specifically to To sort of give context all of this and receive yours And have everyone hear about it and then end it okay Yeah, I mean when we like just lay down the timeline it makes you question why any of this even happens, you know, I think what A lot a lot of interesting decisions, uh Like tiaro's video is possibly one of his worst That's the interesting except still subscribe to him by checking him out uh different topics he covers and The rags one just I don't know what's going on like there's there's portions where you'll have um him commenting over rags speaking while music is playing um He like his script is strange the editing is is like really choppy They they approach different portions of rags video out of order instead of just like going chronological Like we we thought it was terrible, but we would Still be maintaining that rags video isn't isn't all that bad at all Like we thought that he addressed a lot of the things that you brought maybe I'd be willing to admit that um He doesn't give you the greatest benefit of the doubt, but Would you yeah, he doesn't at all Would you concede at all that he made any good points or Well, I'm sure if the the points he makes about the movies. I'm sure like On a lot of levels are correct. I'm sure we'd have to go through each one and like, you know debate each one Never fuck it. Well, no, it's not gonna fucking happen. So Yeah, I mean Like I can't be how can I be objective about this video, you know, like um, how Well, yeah, I mean, uh, that's that was never really like my issue It was just more about making sure everybody understood what has happened But yeah, but that's like without that video, none of this happened. Well, sure. No, I mean without your video, none of this happens Without e-fap a lot less. I wasn't calling out individuals. No, sure It's it's an all it's an avalanche that starts really as far as back as ryan johnson deciding to take the job as directing to lj Um, and the discussion has been crazy over this past two years and now rise of skywalker is gonna be Well, it ain't slowing down Well, yeah, that's the thing. I actually think tlj will probably outlast rise of skywalker eventually because people want to talk about how Either the last Jedi was the last good star wars film or that it was the reason the rise skywalker is bad Like people like because everybody hates rise of skywalker outside of movie bob from what I can see I don't know why Yeah, like all the people who I I've known to like tlj did not like the rise of skywalker Yeah, and then all the people who hated tlj hate rise of skywalker too because this You know, it's just I don't think that there was gonna be a third to this trilogy that was gonna be great It's gonna be pretty tough. Yeah Yeah, well, I have my theories about why um The last Jedi got the like critical reaction it did um, I don't know if they're based on anything solid really but If I had to take a guess, I think it would be based off the fact that ryan johnson Has always been an indie darling, which obviously film critics enjoy and his take on the movie Was like his indie take on it. Like it was it was him ignoring the The saga like as a whole and just making his own film based on Yeah, the chess pieces that were given to him and That's the only like way I can justify enjoying the film is like just basically it being like an else world fan fiction Star Wars movie and that's the same for All of these disney Yeah, I kind of feel that way about disney's movies for stars as a whole they're just these crazy Yeah, but taking like even like that last jedi like revelation made me go back to the original movies and Reassess them a bit and I thought a new hope and empire hold up very very well But I had some real issues with return of the jedi So like it it was making me like reassess like where I was because you know When you first get into like star wars and movies if you're a little kid like You just mindlessly like all of it no matter what you know and like as you grow up you gradually like your taste adapts and I just never had to even think about In on that way before you know So like It has it has to start somewhere and for you it was when you're sat in the theater watching it And there was just something like a wrong feeling in your gut. I didn't have that wrong feeling Not until like I started. Yeah, I didn't have it with tfa, right? But a lot of people did Yeah, like it's it's not uncommon to feel differently about A movie, you know like a year later five years later like opinions changed like we already said and that's fine So you're not not hugely into tlj anymore I I haven't watched it in a long time Like it's not a film I want to rewatch particularly right now because there's just so much that that is always like Niggling in the back of your mind like bugging you um Yeah, I said in my newest video for every like moment of brilliance. There's an equal one of Like shittiness that I just I just I've tried doing the mental gymnastics, but I can't I just can't after a while Yeah, um I think that's the timeline in full then We we is there any else to clarify? Um, is that Is that it then is that like oh, well, I think so. I don't know the because You know you you've you've spoken to me now and this this will be able to be heard by people So there's no there's no comments available that can say you're you're avoiding it or you're cowardly or you're not continuing with your position on tlj like that, you know people will hear this and it should Clear it all up and I mean, you know, I'm more than happy to work with you in any way She'll perform going forward in some some scenario, but if not if it ends up just being there's the last time we interact That's that's okay as well Do you think part of it happened just because of like the extreme emotions about around star wars? Yeah, uh, you get a lot of comments in so many different places You start to lump them all into this sort of one person. Yeah, I feel like if If only I'd presented the video in a clearer way and might and actually properly communicated my feelings then People wouldn't have been annoyed by it in the same way. It's just a fucking structure of it But like yeah, what's happening now, right? Is a lot of people who like rise of skywalker is bad because of this reason Who are people who love tlj and people like but but that same thing that like kind of errors in tlj and then they'll be like Like different people can like different things for different reasons. It's like, oh, yeah, but But this is confusing and obviously like I've always known you to be very Like hyperspecific with understanding I don't know cause and effect and so I was really just blown away But the fact like I remember people messaging because it was around the time I released part two of my tlj critique that Like I had everything really liked last jedi. It was like what really like how it's such a Donsets movie had that I look and watch the video. I was like, oh I'm confused and it's fine because everyone can like whatever. It's just I I didn't expect it at all yeah, I I just think the conversation is more complicated than just It's the worst film ever made like that thing like I like the the Like middle conversation that goes on about like because what what is good here? What is good star wars and what is bad star wars about this? Because I think and I think that conversation is a lot more interesting Then the force awakens because it is just a new hope and it is a lot more interesting Then what is the new one rise of skywalker? Yeah, I think that's what really intrigued me about the movie because it was doing so much like creative unique kind of Ryan Johnson ideas which I've like I've always enjoyed like his his type of movie and His journey are followed like since Basically the beginning with him. So I've been like a fan of his all right So from that perspective, I was really intrigued by the movie and thought that conversation was worth having as opposed to Getting bogged down in certain minutia Sometimes and like pinpointing what is actually like Like Valid and not valid That was all I was trying to say And of course that also comes down to certain preferences you have but Right, uh, yeah, well, I mean, you know, let's say you released that video and then I I had no I didn't would never have expected But I could send you a message and you would actually be like, yeah, I'll talk to you about it But I would have loved to at that time I'd have had that same conversation. We essentially had I think people assume that you just can't contact youtubers Once like a certain level of subs is reached. Yeah, and that's just like a just a reality I guess of just the perception of everything. So I don't blame you for assuming that but Neither of us could have known either way. So Which I guess leads us to the end We did it Yeah, thank fuck Like it's just been on the back of my mind for a while. Yeah, and you know, especially because it's just so like silly Um, well that that was the thing for me because I was just like I'm pretty sure because a lot of people being like because there was some people would be like You guys, uh, there was there was an accusation that we like bullied you And I was like, I felt like conversation was friendly in the uh, the one we had with you guys you guys Well, you admit you've got a reputation that precedes you as a group Well, I'm referring not to like if ever anything but just because this was before you even knew who we were Yeah, but that's what I mean like that that Reputation is what I built my initial thoughts that led to that comment that I apologize to you for You know, I mean, oh, there's this whole there's this whole communication problem going on Yeah, I just like, you know, again, like I get how it happened But I try to avoid that myself as in like say for example when someone gets accused of but you know like pro Jared For example, they're like, can you believe he did x1z? I'd be like, I haven't looked into it I'm I'm not gonna say anything because I think I remember there's an efap where I was just like if that's true That's awful. I I don't know. I haven't I don't know Yeah, and I probably would have been more rational about it if If you know not for the rags video, which just harbors You know some anger about I can show you the rags is extremely good friend of mine very friendly and that uh This this whole thing has obviously done the same sort of thing in reverse He's he's not gotten a great impression either and it's just I would agree it's a matter of communication falling the fuck apart Yeah, it's people from different sides of the planet with different audiences like just The in another life never would have even like met or in any form Just like happening to clash because of the string of events known as the last Jedi Yeah, Ryan's uh had quite the ripple effect very proud of it Well, yeah That's that's most of what I had to say to be honest Like I cut that that's most of it covered No, I'm I'm I'm happy with that. I just wanted yeah, the people normally does it normally go like this or is it? Uh, people are often surprised How I act in in conversation versus like one of my rage videos because obviously i'm a very Assertive and straightforward in those but I've always felt that that personality comes through on any e-fap stream So if someone sees me responding to the video, I don't get really get the impractical because like with the whole Jenny Nichols and thing that happened recently like we were considered Uh sexist trolls who like constantly rip into people with no with no quarter and then you can Get several sections of the video where we're like, all right The idea that it's a flaw in the film that joker would be punished for losing the sign because it was a going out of sale sign And the going out of sale business wouldn't need or care about the going out of sale sign We were like that sounds like the opposite like wouldn't he absolutely need it? Especially if he was going out of sale it could be bankruptcy like and who knows how long he's going out of sale for We were like, that's a strange uh Thing to say is a flaw You take that sound bite like look at those sexist crazy ass I was like, oh come on like and it's not to say that we don't have any comment that you can't isolate and be like Look how ass holy they are. It's like, okay. Sure. But that's you know We ran it for like three hours talking about her video specifically. We addressed so many of her comments In a in what I would call a calm and civil manner and we try to do it with everybody but we also try to have a bit of fun and I just um There is As much as there's a huge fan base for eFap. There's also a huge um Let's say opposite fan base anti fan base. There's a lot of people who will Be like, you know the memes like oh careful say something about more that he'll make a 12 hour video on you It's like I don't think that's how that works, but all right. Yeah I feel like that's just a thing on youtube is that your reputation and your name does proceed you and I don't know how much control you have over it. I think it depends on who you are and like the stuff you're putting out Yeah, because I obviously like With a name like mine like people instantly form a certain expectation You know, yeah, that makes like I understand it more than anyone However, let's say like, you know theoretical man said I hate I hate everything's channel because he never talked about anything He actually likes and then You come to this guy and you're like, but I do and you give him examples and then he goes Okay, fine. I do I'd expect that guy to be like well, then you did make a mistake right to that guy And if that guy was like nope, I'd be like, oh, you're kind of an asshole See, yeah, I've never really gone that far like I just like putting it out there and just Leaving it like I'm not about like sitting in the comments arguing for hours like I just like using it as a place to vent and just like just putting out my hot takes be them shit or not, you know Well, I try not to take it so seriously because like I like I like youtube to me and the reason I like it is because Of I remember when it like first came up and it was just like these people making videos There was no way to make money on it. It's just all about just like expressing yourself in some form So I've just liked that idea And I hate all the drama shit and I hate the way everyone creates these like Armies that they send after each other and it just becomes this fucking male stream of Bullshit if we if you rewind to that point like I was just starting out and then I found out that like, you know Too relatively sizable channels would work together to discredit my like method of analyzing stuff in an attempt to defend someone with an enormous channel I was like Jesus. This is gonna feel some damage if I don't address it It's it's a rabbit hole. It's a fucking rabbit hole. It never ends I just mean that I've got an investment in like protecting myself while I don't know I don't know what your situation is But I imagine you've been established for so long now that you don't need to necessarily Conceal yourself with one video destroying your career or anything I suppose I mean, maybe I don't think about it enough. I don't know Yeah, that's all I meant is that that was the first point in my lifetime on youtube that my videos were actually getting any traction I was like, uh-oh and quintin review is a guy who I think he had like 250 000 subs at that point. I was like, he's coming after me It's like, okay. I actually knew him before that. I had no idea that He would fucking hate me so much. I was like, well, here we go Yeah, it there was a period where like commentary on other channels was like the be all end all But I dabbled in it for a bit and I honestly regret a lot of the videos I made during that time Where I was like targeting people and stuff and talking about specific people I tried to avoid doing that now unless it is some like You know, like a director or someone who is removed from it all Because it it does become very personal on youtube for some reason There is a more personal strike to it than someone in some business you have no attachment to And they'll never see, you know Yeah, no, I understand. I really think that this will Help out, I don't know, trying to smooth over and help everyone understand exactly what actually went over these past two years and uh Yeah, god, it's been two years Yeah, crazy And time travels that is crazy That's fucked up. I don't like hearing that But yeah, is there anything else or join us? Should we stop it there? Uh, I think that pretty much covers it to be honest. Like I'm happy with that. All right people, you know make up their own opinions and all that You know, there's no like I'm sort of over it at this point. I think that's clear Like I don't really have I'm seeing there's some salt still there being you know in the wound from the that original video Just because I just wish it didn't happen purely. So all of this didn't happen But I mean aside from that like I'm not really someone who holds like grudges on people Yeah, I just it's the first time I've ever had to deal with something like this and like, you know, it's like a learning experience So I think the goal is just motivations and actions explained and I think we've we've both provided context for uh, everything that happened now Yeah, I'm with you Some someone out there got something from this. Yes Um, is it all right if this like would this be okay for me to play on eFap, for example Absolutely, you can do what you want with it. I don't care. All right. There we go