 I've been back to back MVP. You know who I am. And I played my game a certain way. And he gave respect to Patrick Bevely. Boston will go out in the second round, five or six games. You guys been walking and taking them out? Yes. Wow, we're talking about a guy who came off the bench in college, a three-star recruit, who became the NBA MVP. Chris Broussard here and welcome to the brand new Hoops on Fox podcast. This podcast will give you your daily dose of all things NBA from Fox Sports, including the best content from Skip and Shannon, Nick Wright, plus special guests, fresh NBA content from myself, post-game interviews from NBA stars around the league, and much, much more. Up first, Chris Broussard joined Skip and Shannon to dissect Kyrie's clutch performance in game two. Chris, how far can Kyrie carry these Celtics? Boston will go out in the second round, five or six games. You guys been walking and taking them out? Yes. Wow. Now, that said, the question is how far can he take them? He could take them to the NBA finals. I've said all season long. You have. Milwaukee, Toronto and Boston are all very close. I would not be shocked if he got them to the NBA finals. I would be shocked if Philadelphia and anybody below them, Indiana, any of those teams got to the finals. I would not be shocked if Boston did because they are that good. And when they get beat in the second round, people may say, oh, they went further without Kyrie. Last year, they were better without Kyrie. I don't want to hear that. That's nonsense. They are not better without Kyrie. If they lose in the second round, as I'm predicting, it won't be because he's the problem. Right. Okay. Last year, they could have lost. People forget. Milwaukee took them seven games. And that was a Milwaukee team that's not even close to what they are now because Brad Stevens had a huge coaching advantage last year over Milwaukee. Because Mike Budenhozer wasn't there. Budenhozer is there now. I think the talent of the two teams is very similar. But Yanis is better than Kyrie, even though Kyrie is better in the clutch. But Yanis is a better player overall. And Budenhozer and Stevens is probably a wash. So they won't have any coaching advantage. And then against Philadelphia last year, they had a huge coaching advantage. So they've either had a talent advantage or a coaching advantage like now. They're going to beat Indiana because they have a talent advantage. When they get to Milwaukee, it's going to be even. And so Kyrie is playing great. I think the bright spot of last night, if you're a Celtics fan, is that perhaps, and I do believe this may have happened, the pecking order was finally set. The Celtics, other players finally realize, okay, he's the man. He is the man. Right? He's the guy. They didn't know that. They didn't know that. I don't think they knew. I don't think they knew. They felt, hey, we got the game seven with LeBron last year without Kyrie. They fought against it all year. But last night, and he got guys involved. He wasn't just ball hogging. He got guys involved. Tatum was able to get his 26. But when push came to shove, Kyrie showed them why he's Kyrie Irving. And now I think they get it. And also Marcus Smart's injury while he's a very good player for them. It does allow Terry Rozier to play more minutes with Kyrie. And that was effective last night. Look, I like Boston, I like what they have going. I just think Milwaukee will beat them next week. Well, you can take him all the way. You can take him. I agree with you because he and Kyrie, Kyrie, he and Kawhi are the only two guys that's been on the biggest of Biggest Stage. That's the NBA final skill. And we know what this guy's done. He's a big shot taker. He's a big shot maker. Game seven, it doesn't get any bigger than that. And he was willing to pull up with 15, 20 seconds on the clock and drain a three. A lot of guys like, well, let me try to get to the basket. Like, nah, I'm going to take that. I'm going to end this right here right now because I know I got Bron to back me up. If I miss, he's going to grab the rebound. But that's not the here look there. Skip that was a big time man. A little different. Last night, he put everybody in the blender. He was shaking them up and they got no answer. Like you said, Indiana is just talent deficient. If you got Bogdanovic, if you're going to put the ball in his hand, that's going to be the guy down the stretch that's going to win you the ball game. You'll lose to Boston every time because Boston is supremely talented. I'm surprised that it even got to this point. They were trailing by seven in game one, trailing by 11. So that tells you, okay. Very, very fortunate. But Skip, he's, I mean, Kyrie is special. There are not, there are not five guys in the clutch. You'd rather have the ball in the NBA right now, 400 players. They're not five guys in the clutch. You'd rather have the ball in their hands other than Kyrie. Which is why your man misses Kyrie Irving. He misses us too. You'd rather have Jason Tatum or you'd rather have LeBron. You'd rather have Al Horford or you'd rather have LeBron. You'd rather have Roger or Jay LeBron or you'd rather have LeBron. So don't pretend like it's a one-way street. You're missing us too. The Lakers don't have a closer. He closed again last night. He is special and that was a special night. So was James Harden, by the way. We're not talking about him, but that was special. But this young man, the show he put on, it was just a dazzling. The ball handling, the handle, the lift, the fallaways. Just unstoppable. And he's not the biggest man. What would he give him? 6'1", 6'2". 6'2", 6'2". But he's not a big man. He's slightly built. He's one of the best finishers. As a guard, he might be the best finisher. With either hand at the rim. Right. So I sat back last night watching this. And I haven't been able to figure out Kyrie Irving all year long. Because he has alienated all those kids in that locker room at different points. And they fired back at him. And you're right. He just said, OK, watch this. But I don't know exactly from night to night or interview to interview what I'm going to get from him. Because listen, this is my conclusion about him and KD, his new bestie. You know, they're the dynamic duo that could just change the whole landscape of this league on July 1st. But these two together, in all my time watching the NBA, they're the most thin-skinned, unpredictable, mood-swinging, over-emotional, dynamic duo superstars that I've ever seen. And they're the same. Because they're so volatile from interview to interview what you're going to get from them. Yep. And then, again, another reference, Brian Wintource. But he reported that after game 7, 2016, Kyrie had hit the shot of shots. And he goes, according to Brian, went in the locker room. And he's angry about something that nobody could ever figure out. But he was just angry. And he wouldn't celebrate with his teammates. And he ends up facetiming Kobe Bryant, LeBron's arch rival. Yeah, that's why I did it. OK. Well, maybe that moment wasn't what he thought it would be. Because you remember, KD's like, well, you know what? This is it. And maybe Kyrie says, man, I thought it was like, the heavens was going to open up and everything. But you wanted that. That's unfortunate if that's the case. Yeah. And they both, well, KD's alluded to that. Yes. And maybe it was Kyrie. That's unfortunate. And Brian Wintource also said after game 1 against Indiana, Kyrie had just an OK by his standards game. And the final buzzer goes off. And he runs over and hugs his father and sister. And Brian compared it to Tiger Woods winning this Masters on Sunday. Like it looked like Kyrie had just won the ultimate championship. And it's, what are you doing? You know what? I don't know what he's doing. I can't explain any of it. But I just know that between him and Kevin Durant, the talent is off the charts in both cases, where they are as special as it gets. Those are two of the most unstoppable scores this league has ever seen. Yeah. No question. And they're just so moody, unpredictable, no idea what they're going to do on July 1st, because they probably don't. Can I ask you a question? If winning a title, the first in the Cavalier history, hitting the shot of shots, playing as well as he played throughout the entirety of those game semis. He did. If you're not happy then, what's going to ever make you happy? Because even if he goes to Kevin Durant, Kevin Durant's 1-8. Kevin Durant is 1. He might be 1-8. But Kevin Durant's 1. Yeah. So what's going to ultimately make Kyrie happy? Chris, do you know? It wouldn't be something... It's something you have to deal with inside yourself, outside of basketball. So that's what it would be. Like I said, I hope that's not the case. That they aren't... And I'm not saying... I get it. It's good that everything doesn't revolve around basketball for them. They have a balanced life. But your basketball, if you... I mean, Kyrie, that shot, off the top of my head, I would say that's the second biggest shot in NBA history. The first being Ray Allen's shot. Wow. I mean, what's the biggest comeback ever? All that Jordan shot at Utah was pretty big. It was game six, though. Yeah. I give you that. Ray Allen missed that shot. It might be more iconic, but Kyrie, first championship for Cleveland in 52 years, which might not mean anything to people outside of Ohio. No, it was huge. But in the 3-1 comeback, I'll give you that. You know, complete that. 73-win team, like... But whatever the case, to your point about KD and Kyrie, about their sensitivity, and I do agree with you, however, I will say this in kind of their defense. This is an era that we have... No previous eras of athletes never had to deal with. That's one thing that makes LeBron for all the passive-aggressive tweets. It's impressive that he's been able to handle it for the most part. I'll give you that. The way he does, right? I'll give you that. They are under scrutiny. These types of shows. Jordan never had this. No. Yeah. So we scrutinized Kyrie Irving on a Tuesday night in Utah. Game 57, it doesn't even matter. Right. Jordan, we only remember the makes. Magic. We only remember the great moments. But if they had been scrutinized like this, some of those guys... If we get to us... May have... May have had... Because you have these other social media platforms, everybody gets to criticize you. They get to add such and such. You suck. Right. So not... The other thing about Kyrie and KD, they're both deep thinkers to me. They go way deep. Second, third level thinkers. Michael Jordan was not a deep thinker. I was around him a lot. He thought he wanted to play basketball and golf. Yes. In that order, and he wanted to gamble on both. Yes. That's how he was. Like he wanted to bet his life on basketball and any amount of money on golf that you wanted to bet. That's what he was. And cards too. Yeah. He loves to gamble. Okay. Anything to compete. Yes. Well, that's it. But he didn't think twice. No. His kids are always thinking like, what does it all mean? What does it all mean? Right. They came to basketball. He was thinking, I know I'm better than you. I know my team is going to be yours. And if you bet me, I know I'm going to take your money. That's it. That's it. I agree. The overthinking things, it just makes you look at all the angles and can make you upset. What is my life? Yeah. How would I be remembered? What is my purpose? Like KD's explanation yesterday. I was a deep expert about Patrick Beverly. Oh, I could play. But I just want to see you just take him to the hole. Remember, I... But it was a great explanation. Oh, yeah. He did throw it out. Yeah, he did. Put on BBA later. Next, Steven Jackson joins Nick and Cece to break down the Warriors vs. Clippers game-free match-up. What do you make of what KD has to say? I know exactly what he's saying. And I also know what Steve Kerr is saying. Steve Kerr is not saying go out there and jack 30 shots up. Right. He's saying be more aggressive. KD understands that. But KD has to break it down to people that don't understand the game. And what he's saying is I've been playing a certain way my whole career. And I've been good at it. All y'all standing up and asking me questions because I'm Kevin Durant. You know who I am. I've been back-to-back MVP. You know who I am. And I played my game a certain way. And he gave respect to Patrick Beverly because guys like Patrick Beverly, we love, we want them type of guys on our team. And that's the way he plays. And the way he plays is effective. But at the same time, KD understands the game. He's a student of the game. He said it. I can go out there and dominate and score on them every time. That's not winning basketball. That's not how we won two championships. I'm going to continue to play. I understand what Coach is saying. I'm going to continue to play out the way I know how to play and play with my teammates. Yeah, I took the Steve Kerr comment like you. A coach is just trying to speak because 20 shots is one thing. In Kevin Durant's career, 435 games, he's taken 20 shots in his career. Only one guy took more than 20. That's in LeBron in the same amount of time. But as far as 30 shots, KD has 20 games where he took 30 shots in his career. Regular season and the playoffs. 30 shots, a lot of shots. Now, there's six more players that have more 30-shot games than him compared to just one with the 20-shot game. So what Steve Kerr is saying, Kevin Durant is not going to do. So Kevin Durant, when he has the press conference afterwards, he's not disobeying the coach. He's just breaking it down to this is the way I'm going to play. Steve Kerr is telling you as I want Kevin to be more aggressive, but they both can be right. Steve Kerr is right and Kevin Durant is right because he has made his reputation by being one of the most efficient players, scores that we've ever seen in this game. And that's one of the reasons why I fell in love with his game. Then once he went to the Warriors, now we just start picking them apart because we didn't like the move. We didn't like that the league wasn't balanced anymore. But Kevin Durant's ability to be efficient is one of the special qualities about it. He broke down the defense, what they're trying to do to me. They're playing up under me. And he's right. He's got six offensive fouls. Patrick Beverly is all into his space. As a player, your space is your own space. A defensive player is not supposed to be able to come into your space. So they're not refereeing the games the right way. So Kevin should be able to push back to build a game, the cylinder of his space back. He hadn't been able to do that, but he taught me an awful lot. I wish there was other NBA players. I know it's difficult because they're doing this four or five times a week. But he taught me something about basketball. And I like that when they give me, because most of these guys that play at this level, they're basketball geniuses. And every once in a while, if they can just let me in to give me a little more insight, I appreciate. And that's what Kevin Durant did for me yesterday. And that's why he got kicked out in a lot of ways. Because once you go to the referee, and they call and call for Beverly, and once you go to the referee and say, Rev, call it both ways. And you don't, we talked about it. Now I got to take it into my own hands. And that's why he's getting kicked out of the game. That's why all this other stuff has happened because the referees are not calling it both ways. Except for the fact that in game one, Kevin Durant isn't the only one who got kicked out. No question. They both did. And in game two, Kevin Durant's not the only one. And that was premature. That was premature. For both of them. They only got kicked out because it was a second technical. No, I didn't. But they got the two technicals within 20 seconds of each other. Yeah. And I didn't think they had to, they wouldn't have thrown them out if it was a close game. No question. It was, there's few minutes left, let's just, things got out of hand. But in game two, Kevin Durant's not the only one who fouled out. Beverly fouled out as well, about four minutes early. Here's my issue. I understand what Kevin Durant's saying. However, you don't become a four-time scoring champion if you only take the most efficient shots. If you only do it when it is in the most advantageous positions. Maybe the scoring champs that we have now. But when Kevin Durant was the scoring champion and his field goal percentage will indicate that. He was saying, listen, he's an incredibly efficient score. But in order to score 30 plus points a game, sometimes you have to take tough shots in tough circumstances. And he is a great tough shot maker. And the point that I am making is this. When you're, when you have the 30 point lead, then of course don't change anything. But when it's dwindling and steps on the bench because he's in foul trouble, and then it's dwindling more and steps on the court, but he is having an awful fourth quarter. Then all of a sudden, you have to be able to tap into OKC Kevin Durant. Because warrior Kevin Durant, not to make an excuse, but when you're in a big comeback, no one knows they're getting ready to break history. We have 31, bro. So you don't want to change. And you never want to look like you're forcing it either. Because like you said, he knows the defense. He's jibbling into double teams. You don't want to force it. I mean, we're talking about the biggest, I mean, comeback in NBA history. Yes. When you're involved in that, you're in the moment. You don't know. Damn. What little wins getting ready to do? Ten. Five. Two. Sure. There is a hindsight to it. Now, I do agree with you that Kevin Durant, there should be more times that he should be aggressive. Now, he hadn't had to do that because he's in Golden State. So I do understand your argument, but when you are in that moment, you're in one of the biggest comebacks on the other side. You don't know. You don't know that. You're going to wake up the next morning and it's getting ready to be history. But the other aspect of it is, is that we are, when we talk about how we're going to evaluate these guys, some of them, we're going to hold them to the standard that they want to be held to. Kevin Durant believes he deserves to be considered and earn the right to be considered the best player in the world. I know a lot of people think he is the best player in the world. Yes. And in that spot, when you got a guy a foot shorter than you guarding you, when you have more turnovers than field goal attempts, when your team blows the biggest lead in playoff history and you, in back-to-back games now, have not been able to finish the games because of this back and forth with a guy who will never make an all-star team, his basketball legacy might be this series, then you're going to be held to some real scrutiny. And when your coach says, I'm giving you the green light to be more aggressive, that's what I want to see tonight. I want to see Durant. Does he say, you know what, I am going to pull up and shoot over Patrick Beverly? I am going to be a little more OKC, Kevin Durant, because that might be what the series calls for. I don't think it's needed. I think it happens in basketball. Now it might be the biggest comeback ever, but I've been in games where we're blowing guys out. What tends to happen is we get the clock watching. We're not even playing no more. We're just watching the clock, hurry up, clock, run out, run out, run out. And that's what happened. And the Clippers kept playing. It happens to teams and it just so happened that them and the playoffs. But I'm not worried. Katie going to come out and be the same Katie. They're going to win by third and we won't even be talking about this. Now Chris Haynes and Jim Jackson joins Whitlock and Wiley to talk about Russell Westbrook's playoff struggles. You think Russell Westbrook will ever mature as a player? You stop believing in them, huh? You done? Nah, nah, just don't believe he's going to mature. Are you finished or are you done? That's what I want to know about a guy who came off the bench in college, a three-star recruit, who became the NBA MVP and that's what we want to really put our focus and criticism on a top 10 player, a guy whose average is a triple double the last three years. This is not a maturity issue. This is a guy who went out there and put a franchise on his back after the departure of another great player in Kevin Durant. This is a guy who is now looking around and it's time to start calling our role players, but that's not who he is. This is a guy who has Paul George and himself and even this year, if you say he's immature, why would you defer to Paul George when he was healthy and playing at an MVP level if you're immature, if you're selfish, if you're not ready to win? He's trying to win at all costs, but in today's NBA, as we're sitting next to a guy who covers a team with four, five all-stars, sometimes he just ain't got enough. I love Russell Westbrook in terms of his moxie, his tenacity, the way he approaches the game. Could it be a better player? I'm sure he could get higher in the top 10 rankings, but there are 450 dudes in the NBA, man. And there's 440 dudes out there who need to do a lot more to even catch up to one Westbrook to now try to get in that rarefied air and saying he needs to be a perfect player. I like him the way he is, address the situations around him, coaching included, and maybe you'll get more results. Got him a tour. Yeah, he's got a tour. I don't know what my son is for. He started rambling about just where he ranks as far as the grand scheme of the players. We're talking about how can we get him to a level to where he's the leader of a championship ten team. Because look, right now, we can talk about the triple number, we can talk about all the stats piling up, but I need to see composure from him. I need to see him making winning plays down the stretch. I need to see him not losing it when he gets fouled and going bumping with somebody getting a technical and crucial parts of the game. I need him to allow for if the three ball is not working, which it has been working all year. No, no. Get to that hole. We have to understand that everybody's not going to be able to shoot the three. Just because the league is ventured off into everybody shooting 30 footers, that's not Westbrook. He needs to shoot five footers. That wasn't Kobe either. I get it. A lot of people can't shoot the three. So, until he gets to where he's mature and I think really in order for OKC to reach there to say, look, I'm not putting it all on OKC. On Russ, I mean. But in order for them to reach their full potential. What are we talking about? What are we talking about? We're talking about it right there. I'm not putting it all on. I bet not. In order for them to reach their full potential, I think West has a let go of a lot of the responsibilities that he wants like trying to get the assist. He did that this year. Not this year. Oh, y'all, stop. Y'all don't like the evidence. No, no. But I think it's two fold because I go back to when Kevin Durant was there. They're up 3-1. But it's game seven. They're killing Golden State with the side pick and roll. Killing them with Canada. Killing them with Adams. You know what? They go away from it and go one-on-one. At that time, Scotty Brooks was a coach. They allowed that to happen. So, guess what? You end up losing the game. If you don't correct the mistakes early in the season and have more discipline as a team, it comes back to bite you in the playoffs, okay? It comes back because it now is magnified with the teams that you play because they're going to take stuff away. My thing is two-fold. One, Westbrook is who he is. He's not going to change. So, what you have to do is bring in a dynamic that's going to surround him with the right kind of people, which he has now. But you have to have more discipline on the offensive end to understand what kind of team you have. Not a three-point shooting team. So, why go out there and try to be a three-point shooting team? You can pound the ball and still get things done, be a better defensive team. So, I'm spreading the blame on everybody. I'm spreading the blame on everybody across the board in regards to that. But listen, when you lose, of course there's blame. No, no, but it's not the losing. Jason, to me, it's the lack of discipline and understanding who they are as a team from the beginning. I would agree, but everything starts with your highest-paid, most important, franchise player. You got to get him on board first. But that got to come from upstairs. That's where it starts. But, Jim, the thing that's different in this league because, Jim, I'm old enough to remember and everybody here is old enough to remember, these same conversations went on about Michael Jordan in Chicago in terms of him having to change his style of play and being just a volume score. That wasn't good enough for them. And what did they do? They also changed the coaching and all of a sudden led the championship instantly. All the other stuff is talked about. That's my point. When they got Bill Jackson in, that helped Michael mature into a different player. Until you solved that problem with that man, Russell Westbrook, respects the man on the bench, he's not going to change. Let me ask you this though. Let me, honest to goodness, we give Phil a lot of credit and he obviously deserves it. But Michael Jordan wasn't making $30 million a year like players are today. They're much harder to rate. Yes, he was in the last years. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I was talking about when he made change some how early in his career. It's all relative, but Michael still, Michael from a persona perspective was still Michael Jordan. I don't care how much money it was. You couldn't... Before championships and everybody in the league, when the Detroit... But he was still the face of the league. I get it. So it was still... No, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Michael Jordan at that time, even when Detroit was winning, it was still about Mike. Yeah. In the league. The league was about magic and Larry. No, no. But they were in the back end when the Pistons won it in 1991. This magic and Larry weren't doing that like that. Right. And they even passed the torch in conversation. They were like, this dude, we can't do anything about it. This is my point about Russell. And let me say this. Yeah. Let me say this. Russell needs someone he respects. Kobe respected Phil, okay? Even LeBron respected Pat Riley to change some things. Michael respected Phil. So this is a coaching issue. Yes. Hold on. Hold on. In regards to his maturity. As far as maturity. Okay. Let's talk about this maturity, too. This is a second coach. But both coaches allow them to get away with everything, bro. I understand. I understand. Any stats over here, I'm just going to say out on the top of my head. The coach ain't causing him to shoot five for 20. No. Shoot like that. Shoot and shoot. Oh, no. He doesn't take your own. Do you think if he was playing for Pat Riley, he'd be doing that? Not at all. Not at all. That's why I don't understand. That's why I don't understand. Hold on. Russell Westbrook. Russell Westbrook. Yes. If he was playing for Pop, that wouldn't happen. If he was playing for Jeff Van Gunden, it wouldn't happen. Hold on. But he's not. He's not. But who's in the role? But that's my point. That's what you're missing. If he don't have somebody he can respect on the bench, he's going to do what he wants to do. Jimmy, let me say this. We're talking about a subjective conversation right now and we're going to have our opinions. Let me give you all some facts, first of all. Because this ain't the Oprah Winfrey Show. That's fact. Because y'all acting like they just hand out championships to great players. That's not how the game goes. Since the modern NBA started. Let's go 1980, last 40 years. You know what I mean? Franchages won a championship. Eight. Eleven. You know since Russell been in the league, how many have won in his 11 years? Six. How many stars starred next level Russell? I get it. So stop acting like this. He has to lead a championship team or he's not great or he's not mature. No, I think, honest to goodness, today where we're starting at is just him getting out of the first round. Because this will be the third straight year. That's all we're talking about. Get out of the first round. That's not my dance. And so I don't care if he was winning championships or not winning championships. His game needs to mature. He's not a three-point shooter. He continues to take three-point shots. I get you that. He's not a point guard. And again, I agree with that. I agree with that. Yeah, I give you that. I love this thing of like, let's blame it if the coach, coach, coach, coach. It's a player driven league. That's the point. Have you, have you? Listen, I've been in those rooms when I seen people change. I've been in those rooms. You think Kobe was like that under Dale Harris? I'm not saying that. But what you're saying, but what's your both? I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying it's a combination. I'm not excusing Russ. To me, Russ, his emotions, he allows his emotions to make irrational decisions that hurt the team. Okay. But that goes back to not being corrected early on. That's my point. I agree with that. But both of, what you both were saying as well is that in order for Russ to mature and make the right plays, he has to have a coachy respect. How do you want to win and do the right thing? But it's not that simple. If it was that simple, he would do it. And don't do that. That's why you got mentors and guys. Y'all didn't win at all. Y'all didn't win at all. Look, I love this. I ain't got no ring. I ain't got no ring. You won't? Golden State was there climbing, getting there, but they even lost in the first round to the Clippers. That Golden State team and you know what happened? You been in the game or lost a series? Series? 2014. Do you want it back there? Come on, man. I thought you were still relevant. They won three of the last four. We're going to go back four or five years. Yes, we are. And you know what happened? Coaching changed. Whatever you want to say, the guys matured. But guess what happened? They blossomed and you can say, oh, it's in coincidence of the coaching change. We're trying to say it's in correlation. Is it correlation? Ain't Russ around 30? You're talking about stuff when they were 25 and 20. And don't act like he hasn't been in the finals before. Let's not do that to him. Like first of all, we say, oh, you can't get out the first round. Oh, but I've been to the finals. Oh, well, that ain't enough. We keep moving the goal post. Should they be B Portland? Should they be Portland? They're not a higher C. So technically, no. They don't. Portland doesn't have lurkers. Portland is that. It doesn't matter. Should they be B Portland? In Vegas, they're favored. They're favored to get past Portland. If they do not, then what? It's all a post issue. No, I'm just saying, I'm not. Do they have A plus coaching? You know that's not true. So therefore, most of the league doesn't have A plus coaching. That's why most of the league ain't competing for a championship. I'm just saying. Does Portland have A plus coaching? Terry Satch is good. No, no, no. Good. Is that A plus though? Because now everybody's A plus. Come on. I can say A plus. I said A plus. I said A plus. I said A plus. I said, hold on. I said a coach he respects. Okay. That's a big difference, Portland. That's a big difference. Let's be clear. Okay. Let's be clear. Because again, I get that Russ and all of us, unless there's someone to control us, we're incapable of doing that. That's what it sounds like. That's what it sounds like. No, no, no. That's what it is. Everybody can't do it the same way you do it. Let me finish my point. Or I do it. Let me finish my point. Okay. Because I know that's the argument. Right. They're all incapable. All that purple beef over there. Yeah. And unless we find the unicorn coach, they're incapable. They can't self-correct. I said Thomas didn't grow on his own. Nobody can do it without the perfect coach. That's BS for one. Oh, thank you. Point two. Point two. Point two. If Kevin Durant, the second best player in the league, leaves my franchise. And factually, I don't know what percentage of the reason why, but it's some sort of percentage because, man, that dude's out of control. And I can't do what I'm supposed to do. Because that dude's out of control. If that doesn't cause you some self-reflection on your own, I was playing with Kevin Durant. This dude bounced on me. Russell Westbrook is not incapable of self-reflection and correcting. Now, will he do it? I think not. Because one, anything he does will be excused by some because, oh, my God. By some? By two on this panel right here? And y'all both wrong because, you know what? It's impossible to blame Westbrook for Durant want to leave when it was a great decision, but in possible circumstances. Which franchise is better? Well, which one is... It's a percentage of Kevin Durant. Which franchise ran better? Golden State or O'Casey? Is there a percentage of the reason that Durant left? Which team had success in front of them or behind them? You've got to understand what he was making the decision. Which market is better? So his decision had nothing to do with it? I'm not saying it had nothing to do with it, but to put the blame on him instead of saying, KD, you made a great decision for this one. I laid it out. I thought very clearly. There's a certain percentage. I don't know what. We can say it's 20%. We can say it's 5%. We might be... It might be 70%. But there's a percent. There was on Russ. That's clear as day. To do what? They went to a finals and then he made a projection and said, you know what? I understand that. You know what Kevin Durant said? I want to win championships. I don't want to... I go so better. Following Stephen Jackson is back with Nick and Cece to explain why Ben Simmons isn't going to win championships. Ben Simmons isn't just an average player in the half court. Stephen, is Dudley right about Ben Simmons? Truth sound like hate to people who hate the truth. Oh, truth. Man, say that again. Say that again. Truth sound like hate to people who hate the truth. I mean, it's just the truth. He's not a good half court player. As you see last game, he has success by getting the ball off the hoop, pushing it and getting quick baskets. Half court game is not his game. He can't shoot. He won't even shoot it. Jared Dudley, he's dead on it. I think that's the way they're going to approach guarding him. The same way we know he's not going to shoot. He's going to slow him down when he get the rebound and make him play him half court because that's the reason they won last game. Every player has weaknesses in his game and it's been just talked about, talked about, talked about as far as Ben Simmons and his inability to shoot. My biggest problem with Ben Simmons is not his inability to shoot because even if you can't shoot, you shouldn't put yourself in a position where they can exploit your weaknesses. So if you're going to be one-dimensional, be the best one-dimensional player. So every time the ball went off the bucket, I would be trying to get in transition. Every time I tried to set up the offense the way they did, I would try to get a running start compared to a conventional guard setting up, calling the play, allowing everyone, I would move back a little bit so I can use my size and speed and try to get in the air over people. So my biggest thing with Ben Simmons is he doesn't know his game well enough that he plays it all the time. People force him to play their way. They force him. Jared Dudley is right. They force him to play in a half-court game. Now, in and up and down, if he was on the Showtime Lakers, he would be sensational because they were up and down the court, pace, pace, pace, pace. That's what Magic Johnson was best until he developed that shot. Now Magic Johnson was a better player at a younger age, but that pace helped him out. My biggest problem with Ben Simmons is not that he can't shoot. Master what you can do. Yes, Dudley is right. He needs to get up and down more because he's almost unstoppable in the break, just like Giannis. You see the way Giannis is doing? Ben Simmons needs to be able to match a lot of what Giannis is doing until he develops that 15-foot jump shot. And I would argue that is when he's on the court. That's the way they play. They are overall this year, eighth in the league in pace. They're even faster when he's on the court as opposed to on the bench. And Jared Dudley's half right here because we're only talking about the offensive end now because nobody says Ben Simmons in half court defense is not an elite player. Like we know he is an elite defensive player for his position. We know he's an A-plus player in transition. And this actually to me is the perfect microcosm for why I get so frustrated with the Ben Simmons hyper critiques. So he's a very good defensive player. He's an A-plus player in transition. Let's call him a C-minus player in half court offense, right? Dudley called him average. So that would be a C. You want to call him a D player. Whatever you want to call him, fine. That averages out to a B-plus basketball player. That averages out to an all-star. Average is out to a guy that gave you 18, 9, and 8 for the season. You can still be an all-star and people be disappointed. When you are the first pick in the draft, life is about expectations. But so this is... Is that right or not? Of course. But do we expect guys to be their fully developed player in their second year in the league or second year in the playing third year in the league? But do we expect to see an arc? We expect to see someone go up. Exactly, Jim. We talked about how all-off season, at least he'd get better. There's shooting didn't get any better. I even know that. Okay, let's be honest. Were you happy with Ben Simmons, what he did in the shooting department last year? No. Oh, okay. No. That's all we're talking about now. But you're in the NBA. You should be able to even have a confidence to take a shot. Take a shot. Like your man is sitting way in the paint. You're making the... Jack, how many years have you been retired? Five. Okay. All season. Jack, you work out hard. How many shots are you getting up a day? Right now? Well, a day? Probably close to 100. Right. Agreed. But when you say... Close to 100. At 41. Understood. And this is why you're the big three leading scored two years. But the point is though, you're in the NBA. You're an all-star. How can you not shoot a jump shot? That's my thing. So here's the thing. Because, see, you just said it. But that's what we're talking about. We're only talking about it because we're talking about it. We don't... This is the one player in the league, he and Russ in my mind, that we spend such a disproportionate amount of time talking about what they can't do. Nobody denies what he's great at. So we just say, okay, he's great at it. Forget it. It's not interesting. Let's talk about it. Yes, should he have gotten better at shooting? We're talking about getting ready for game number three. What do you want to talk about with him? We could phrase the exact same conversation of, can the Nets prevent Ben Simmons from dominating the game the way it is? They did a game one. But it would still be based off Jared's comments, Dudley's comments. He'd be like, hey, we got to slow him down. We got to put him in a half court. Then our comments would be, can they do that? And if teams can... And it would go back to exactly what we're talking about. Is he going to ever be able to shoot? If he's never able to shoot, then he will never reach his full potential. I don't know. I know him on TV now. And I know he can't shoot now. Right. Because he might be able to shoot one time, but I might not be on TV. That's fine. But being on TV now, the last game he played in was maybe... Sensational. Absolutely. Go ahead. Was it because of him or was it because the other guys around him finally started to shoot? No, it was because of him. He was the best player on the court. He was the guy that initiated everything. He was the difference maker. He was the one who adjusted his awful approaching game one to a great approaching game two. Nick, it's... I think there's a tremendous irony to the two people that you mentioned. Both of them, you like. Russ. You think he gets criticized too much? Russ. He ain't had no playoff success after averaging a triple-double, triple-double. Because in professional sports, you know what they pick out? He's not in college no more. They pick out the things that you can't do. If you're a good player, they pick out the things that you can't do. If you're a great player, they pick out the things that you haven't done or you can't do. That's what professional sports is about. It's not always about potential. It's about what do you do on a daily basis. I know a lot of great regular-season players. What separates them is when they do it in the playoffs. At the same time, I got to reiterate this. How can you be in the NBA? How can you be an all-star and cannot shoot? Because you must be amazing at everything else. No, no, it's not about being amazing. It's about having enough confidence to attempt a shot. You're not even trying. At least try. That's my whole problem. You're not even trying. At least give yourself a chance. Finally, Chris Haynes and Jim Jackson are back with Whitlock and Wiley to look at the future of the Lakers organization. The question here is, do you think this perception will have any effect on their off-season strategy? And I think it will. I think this is probably why Monty Williams, not Ty Lourge or Juan Howard, will get the job. Monty Williams less connected to LeBron. This is a tough one. This story, it got some legs. A lot of people wasted ink on this story because LeBron's always been the puppeteer, always been calling shots. Even when he was against situations that were more adversarial, whether it's a Pat Riley or even a shrew businessman in Dan Gilbert, LeBron still found his ways. So what's going to be our measuring stick of, oh, these free agents are scared to go to a Lakers team that's ran by LeBron? Because here's the news flash. It is going to be ran by LeBron. You think it's going to be ran by Rob Linke? Y'all really going to go that far. So LeBron's going to have his fingerprints on a lot of the moves going forward. But look at the Lakers in the off season for the last 10, 20 years. Name the big free agent that they got outside of that guy, LeBron James. Oh, wait, no, nobody. So let's not act like the Lakers are attractive destination for big-time free agents because they haven't been. Two, LeBron has even said, I'm not the greatest recruiter. Like LeBron joined forces and everybody joined forces in Miami, but in championship, mine set this off. Don't you do that activation. All I'm saying is, a lot of times people could put out stuff and then when you really distill it, they ain't saying nothing because the Lakers are not used to getting free agents. LeBron's not used to guys just coming and joining him. So par for the course is for them to be unsuccessful, the team and the individual. But LeBron's running the ship. And I think their strategy is we're going to hope and we'll see if they get somebody. Yeah, Bron's going to have some say. So I think one of the bigger challenges also too is just to Rob Linke. As a former agent, he dealt with a lot of organizations before, a lot of agents. A lot of them don't trust some of the things he's done in the past. A lot of them may have some past history with him. That affects how free agents and people look at the Lakers as well. So I think you're dealing with two sides of it, not just the LeBron effect, but you're dealing with the Rob Linke effect coming from I think the agency side. Well, I'm going to take it to a different angle. Like, look, there's always been truth to that. Even when LeBron was in Cleveland, Miami, like management is going to talk to LeBron and see how he feels about certain moves. Whether that's a coach or players. But I wrote last week when Magic Johnson relieved himself of his obligations that the Lakers organization... He quit. He quit. Well, quit. He wouldn't believe himself. We use a sin in him. He wanted to keep his relationship with Gallo. I love Magic. Right. But look, I was told that, you know, when they were compiling the list, this was Magic Johnson and Polinka before he left, they were compiling a list of candidates. Mark Jackson, Tyron Loo, Monty Williams. And I was told, I wrote this for Yahoo! That Jeannie felt like she didn't want the perception out there that LeBron is running the coaching search and said that this is a bus ran organization. So my problem with that is, is that look, if Tyron Loo is the best candidate for the job, bring him on. If you're thinking about perception or optics, you're headed for destruction, point and blade. You shouldn't be worried about those type of things. This is the most pivotal, one of the most pivotal junctures in Lakers' franchise history. It's not about what it looks like. It's about getting the right guy in. Period. And I'm fearful that that might go against what you said. Well, I think that I'm not a thousand percent sure that Jeannie Buss and the people whispering in her ear, Rob Polinka and Kobe Bryant, I'm not sure if those people are 1000% committed to LeBron. And so if they go with a coach, if the strategy is to go with someone not LeBron approved, maybe that's calling LeBron's bluff. And again, I'm not a thousand percent sure LeBron is going to be in a Lakers uniform next season. Oh, definitely I am. He checks the box that's necessary. You got to remember that Lakers, since Dr. Buss has always wanted to win twofold. They wanted to win on the court and they wanted to win off the court in terms of showtime and pizzazz. They never wanted to win the Spurs way. Like they're not even built for that. In part, why you would go and give Kobe that contract at the end of his career. You need meeting the seats. Why do you also get LeBron, even though you know that the end of this contract, he's probably going to be going downhill because he's still box office. Like LeBron is still going to make sure that the Lakers are the Lakers. They're the premier franchise in basketball clearly. And this is a six year drought. We just destroyed OKC and Westbrook for three first round exits. This is the best franchise in basketball and they haven't sniffed the playoffs in now six years and they're still the premier brand. They keep LeBron because they need to stay that premier brand. And I think the relevancy part of it too, we talked about this before. Young guys don't look at the Lakers as that franchise anymore. I mean, because they just haven't been relevant. So when you're talking about trying to attract a free agent, who is that free agent that right now is like, OK, the Lakers are the best thing for me, OK? Because keep in mind, we're certainly not talking about Kawhi. We know he's not coming. Jimmy Butler, we know that's not going to happen. KD is not going to happen. Maybe Kyrie, maybe Kimba, OK? For AD, you still got to trade in order to get that. So when you start to shrink the pool of free agents that make sense, that really can make an impact. The pool shrinks, OK? Unless you make that blockbuster deal with Anthony Davis, which a lot of league officials didn't want to happen during the course of the season, you're still going to be stuck in that situation where you got young guys with LeBron James and you got to figure out who that coach is going to be, who that president is going to be. My contention is, though, I'm not sure if they feel like LeBron is Kareem or Shaq or they may think he's more like Dwight Howard when they acquired him. Is he a guy that can deliver? Don't forget when Dwight was leaving, stay D12, hashtag D12, billboards all around LA. This franchise actually went in and wanted Dwight Howard because they were like, oh, he was injured. So I don't want this to land on LeBron. Covering the Lakers for so many years, this has happened time and time again. That's why we can't name the free agents that come here. Everyone's going to say, well, we're a little apprehensive to play with LeBron. What's the last 20 years been about for the Lakers? Even though I don't agree with Whitlock, but for him to have that thought process just shows you the treasure trove of players that the Lakers have had over the history where they can look at somebody like LeBron James like that and say, hey, you know what? They have more equity in those players, too. They were there for more years, they have more championships. Still Los Angeles is still the Lakers. They're too valuable to the NBA. The NBA will make a way for the Lakers because they need them with or without LeBron James.