 While COVID border controls were front and center yesterday in the first sitting of Parliament since the postponement of the election, National's Health spokesperson Shane Reti told the House much was learned from the first wave of the coronavirus but there is still more to learn and fast. This is a hard problem and sometimes in situations like this with huge complexity and many balls in the air, one of them gets dropped. When that happens this opposition will help pick up that ball and put it back in its correct place. There will be a time to understand how the ball was dropped but first we will help put it back and then we'll figure out how not to drop it again. Well National Party Leader Judith Collins is with us now. Good morning. Good morning, Karen. Do you think it is time for someone to be held accountable for these current border lapses? Well I think that there most likely is this time now. We obviously with the first wave of COVID-19 that came into the country, the five million people got in behind the government as did we to support the efforts that they were making. The problem is now is that having been promised that the border was secure, that people were being tested at the border, that the frontline staff, the Prime Minister said they were being tested on the 23rd of June. She said that eight weeks later it turns out that some people were asking to be tested and were told that they couldn't be tested. And this is a massive failure for the government. Now we've got a lockdown. You've just heard, you've just had Richard Chambers on from police, the poor old police are having to deal with a mess and nobody had set up. Sure. I think it's been well and truly litigated the mistakes that have been made. But what I want to know is that time to, for someone to be held accountable so that we can move on and maybe put an inquiry to one side and deal with the issues at hand. Who should be accountable? Ashley Bloomfield? Well, I'm not going to blame Dr Bloomfield. Dr Bloomfield has ministers, seems to have quite a few that he seems to be having to deal with. The Prime Minister has put in charge of health, Chris Hipkins, one of her more competent ministers, but he's also got education and state services and leader of the house. It's ridiculous to expect him to take this on. She left David Clark in the role for three months. It's actually her responsibility. They always say, you know, the buck stops at the top and it stops with her. So who are you saying should be held accountable? The Prime Minister or Chris Hipkins? The Prime Minister said yesterday that she said we are accountable. Right. Well, she's responsible. She needs to explain it. And the fact is you don't, as the Prime Minister, put out a press release on the 23rd of June saying we're testing all these frontline staff at the border and then find out eight weeks later the public finds out that that was not true. OK. Do you support mandatory testing for border workers? Of course. Why did National not then vote for the legislation which allows that to take place? There was also the legislation that allowed police to go walking into your home without a warrant. There's also the legislation that enabled something called an enforcement officer with no training required except whatever was decided at that moment to go and shut down businesses. So there are very serious issues there. We certainly have no problem with mandatory testing of border-facing staff. That is an absolute given. Having said that, those staff, I've had two of them personally contact me and I understand that another news organisation has actually been able to interview some where they've asked for testing and they were refused it. And that is absolutely unthinkable. OK, do you believe it should be once a week, as is currently being recommended, or twice weekly? Oh, sorry, or once every fortnight? Well, I have discussed this matter with Dr Shane Reti and Dr Shane has said to me that the more frequent testing is the better. But once every two weeks is still better than once every day. Right, because he seemed to be suggesting on a Facebook Live with you last night that the infection cycle two weeks was what should be used. Yeah, that's what I said. So they frequently of once every two weeks. The issue is as well as Dr Shane has advised is that there are about 30 percent, he said, of the tests can be a false negative, which is why you need to have relatively frequent testing. But the other thing is, of course, Corrine, it's not just about testing, although that is a extremely important tool, but it's also about the contact tracing and the contact tracing has been left in some sort of strange situation where we're now estimated around six percent of people are actually using the COVID app. Well, the contact tracing is meeting the 80 percent requirement from the Ashavira report is now being reviewed by Sir Brian Roach, the epidemiologists that we've spoken to on this program seem comfortable that the contact tracing is, in fact, working very well. Well, that's just nonsense, isn't it? What evidence have you got to suggest that it's not working well? Well, Dr Shane, who is now getting briefed on these matters, has been very clear that there is around about a six percent uptake on people using the contact, the COVID app on their phones. We also have, but that's never been presented as the be all and end all the COVID app. The key mechanism has always been those public health officials ringing people up, and that has been stated from the outset. Right. Well, it's clearly a fail. They can't tell us where this has come through the border. Can they? And now we've got two clusters or just to be clear here, you're saying that you believe the contact tracing has failed. Well, it's very clear that the app that the government put in place was not sold to the public. It has made it very hard for people to be able to trace where it's come through the border. The thing is, Corrin, is you've got a government. Well, no, I need to pick you up on that because the government has never said that the COVID app was the be all and end all. It is always to the point where it was often criticised. It has always said that the people ringing up in the public health unions units was the key focus. So why do we have the app on the phone? Well, the app's there to help, obviously, and assist, and it provides the contact detail numbers as well. It's an add-on. It's a bonus. It's always been presented that way. So, Corrin, people don't always keep the sorts of records that you and I no doubt keep of where we are and who we're talking to. It is very important that there are other options available. The government didn't want to look at those. Just wait for our border policy. Well, OK, so you're suggesting you will have an additional policy on contact tracing today? I'm not doing it today. Today is not the day we're putting out the border policy. Well, this week. We will be putting out policy in relation to this. That's why, because we're being advised by Dr. Shane and epidemiologists and virologists, the people who actually know what to do, and we're not just leaving it to Chris Hickins, Megan Woods and Jacinda Ardern. Well, are you suggesting that the government's not being advised by leading epidemiologists? Well, if they are, they're not listening to them, are they? The fact is, Corrin. Well, the advice was clearly to reach 80 percent. The gold standard was set at 80 percent of contacts within 48 hours and they're meeting there. Then why are they asking us to use the COVID app again? If 6 percent of people are apparently using it, according to the latest report, so 6 percent are, and apparently that's just an add-on. Now, come on, Corrin, I would think that you, like the rest of us, will be wondering why it is that we have a third of the population in lockdown, why we have a massive break in our economic development. Why it is that people are now looking to lose their jobs because of a total and systemic failure at the border by this government. There is a danger. Look, I get it. No one is disputing that the government hasn't made mistakes here. They've acknowledged, in fact, there have been two lots of mistakes when it comes to border and testing and they were rightly held to account over the last 48 hours in particular in Parliament. But is there a danger of catastrophising this particular mistake at the expense of fear and, you know, taking an eye off the ball? As Shane Reti was pointing out on other issues. Now, what's very important here is that when a government says that they have, we have been community free of COVID-19 for 102 days and that they're testing all frontline staff at the border regularly, that they actually are and that we are COVID free. Clearly we were not or are not. And what has happened now because of this failure? Other people, small businesses, large businesses, medium size and their staff are all paying the price for that. So when the Prime Minister stood up in Parliament and said that we are responsible as opposed to she or her government are responsible, what she could have said is and the people paying the price are the workers and the business owners. That's what she could have said, but she couldn't. And you believe in future we could be 100 percent squeaky clean and have nothing come through the border? What I believe is is that when COVID-19 comes in through the border that we have to have a system in place that immediately can find out where that has gone, whether the contract tracing should be able to tell us exactly where it is. There are mechanisms to do this. And at the same time, I would say this, Corinne, we cannot continue to go yo-yo in and out of lockdown to the absolute detriment of not only the economy, but let's put it more succinctly. So would you just just finally, I'm really short of time, but would you do you believe we could be out of three now? Or do you think we need to stay in three with this extra case that's come up? Well, I well, we as in the country are not in three, but three Auckland is the Auckland region is. I think that the current situation at the moment with trucks being stopped at the border of Auckland, trying to take food in, people trying to get in and out. I understand that, but do you believe we should stay in three or not? Is there a case for coming out? Let me finish this, Corinne, with people no system in place to ensure that essential workers are getting through. We've got we've got accounts now of a paramedic trying to get to work in uniform and being stopped. We've got this sort of system. What a total mess, Corinne. I can just wonder what people would be thinking. OK, I understand. Can you just give me an answer to that question, though? Do you think that we've do you from what you're doing? If would you take us out of three? Well, I don't have the advice on that in terms of just how bad it is. What we're seeing is from the government, spin and spin and spin. When we get the information, we would make that decision. We would never put New Zealanders at risk unnecessarily. And that is important. But part of that risk is also about the economic risk. I understand, Judith Collins, I'm very sorry. We're short of time. Thank you very much for that National Party Leader, Judith Collins.