 From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE, covering VMware Women Transforming Technology 2019. Brought to you by VMware. Hi, Lisa Martin with theCUBE on the ground at VMware in Palo Alto, California. For the fourth annual Women Transforming Technology event, WT squared. Excited to welcome back to theCUBE, Kathy Chow, the VP of R&D Operations and Central Services at VMware. Kathy, it's a pleasure to have you back. It's wonderful to be back, Lisa. So you and I saw each other this morning, big hug. This is one of my favorite events to be at and I'm proud to be here with theCUBE because this authentic community of women is unlike anything that I've really seen or felt in a long time. Fourth annual, I know it's grown over last year. What are some of your thoughts even just walking in the doors this morning? Well, it's funny, it is the fourth annual and I've been to all four. The very first time I came, I was not a VMware employee and I fell in love with the company, the campus, because it was the very first time and every single time I come to one of these events, I either meet someone or multiple people that are fantastic or I learn multiple things that will help me do what I need to do and I will tell you and I'm not just saying because you're here but last year when I met you I just felt like there was an instant spark and like you say, at these conferences, don't you feel it's safe, you can be authentic, you can be who you want to be, you can be vulnerable? Absolutely. And we can learn with each other, we can share what we need to work on, what we need to improve on and we can also beat our chests a little bit, right? For stuff that we've done well. That sharing is so critical. Of all the women that I've spoken to today, if we look at even our own career trajectories or looking at a lot of the statistics of the low numbers of women in technology, where is the attrition happening? What's happening in grade school, in middle school, when girls between seven and 12 years old, we have to help each other build up confidence. It's just, and I think there's no better way than sharing stories and to your point, that means being vulnerable. I think vulnerability is one of the best traits you can exhibit, period, but you truly can see and feel the impact here and as you've said, you've seen that over the last four years, that this is really an authentic community in every sense of the word. Absolutely, and you've mentioned quite a few things that I'd like to talk about. So first is these young, let's start first with diversity, okay? I know a lot of people do talk about the, they think of gender diversity or ethnic diversity. Diversity with a capital D is much broader, right? It's so diversity of experience, education, you know, geography, seniority, right? There's all different types of diversity, but if we do focus in a little bit on young girls, right? Because you think about that. I was just at the I Wish Conference in Cork, Ireland. I saw that, yes. And what was amazing about that was, so this is all of Cork County. They had all of the, what they called secondary school girls, every single one of them for two days at this conference, where they got to listen to speakers from all over the world to give them that confidence to stay in, because statistics are, when they're in primary school or middle school, right? Girls say, I want to be a computer scientist, I want to do this techy thing, I want to do STEM, but then when they go to high school, they're given all these messages like you can't do it and you don't look like a computer scientist, right? And then all of a sudden it gets in our head and it really does affect our confidence. And then sad to say, years and years ago when I graduated from college, there was only 9% of the women were mechanical engineers. Sad to say today, that number has not changed much and we've got to do something. So it's conferences like these that give us the courage to be better mentors and sponsors of those that will come after us. I agree, I think that it's, and in some cases it seems like it's so simple. Why are we making, I don't think we're making this so hard, but I think that having the opportunity of a community to just have like-minded people in terms of experiences that they've shared. Well, how did you get through this barrier of, for example, really kind of dissecting, to your point, diversity with a capital D, there's so many layers to that. What does that mean, how do we achieve it? I mean, if you look at a lot of the statistics, companies that have, we'll say females, on the executive staff are like 27% more profitable. Yes. The amount of reinvesting of income that women do back into the community and their families, one of the things Joy said this morning in her keynote, Joy Bolenweenie, I think I'm saying that right. I think so. Is looking at women and people of color as the underrepresented majority. I thought that was absolutely spot on. I absolutely thought it was spot on as well. And you know, if you think about it, you think about these experiences, you know, again, we talk about diversity, there's a new, I don't know if it's a new phrase, but intersectionality is the word. Yes. Which means, you know, okay, you're a woman, I'm a woman, I'm an Asian woman, but I'm also a woman that lived on the East Coast. I went to these sorts of schools. I had these types of experiences. So what that means is everyone brings something to the table. So if you really think about diversity now, you will hear this talk about inclusion, that's kind of the big word. And I've actually witnessed this myself on my own team, because if you look at my direct staff, on paper, when you look at them, they look very diverse, but actually diversity, that's like the tip of the iceberg, what you see is only the little piece. When you bring down, get to those deeper layers, you realize truly how diverse the team is, right? Spiritual diversity, experiential, all of that. And by including and creating an inclusive environment, you're able to get the most out of diversity. And I think that's how you do it. Because I thought about this, when you single out groups, you're not being inclusive, right? That's a good point. So I think the goal is to get what we can call the model, what we think is the majority, which is the minority, to embrace the underrepresented majority. And in your perspective, how do you think VMware is doing on that? I was talking with Betsy Sutter earlier, and some other folks, and learned that, I don't know how far down this goes, but at least execs are actually, their bonuses are related to or tied to diversity and inclusion. That's a huge, kind of bold statement that a company like VMware is making, not just to the tech industry, but to every industry. Where do you think VMware is on this journey of really identifying diversity and inclusion and actually starting to realize the positive impacts from it? Yes. So first of all, I think you did something earlier. This is a, it's an epidemic situation, okay? In that, you tell me, almost in every industry there is, right? Entertainment, manufacturing, high tech, legal, professional, whatever, there's an issue with diversity. And you're absolutely right. VPs and above, our bonuses are tied to diversity and inclusion. The awareness of VMware is second to none. The interesting thing is there's no silver bullet. If it were that easy, we would have solved it. So what it is, it's one of those things where I say it takes a village and it's little things. Like when we talked about inclusion earlier, right? Just, hey, when you have a meeting, make sure everyone's voices, voices are heard. Doesn't matter who it is. I don't care if it's a woman and underrepresented minority or a white male. It doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter. It shouldn't, right? Everyone should be heard. And I was just giving a breakout talk about when you increase inclusion, you will drive more innovation. And that's, my job as a leader of 600 folks in an R&D organization is to create that culture that allows people to have confidence, to take risks, to be vulnerable, authentic, and to innovate, right? And to do new things. And if I can create that culture of inclusion, it will drive those business results. I couldn't agree more. Tell me about like, since we spoke last year, I love that driving inclusion to drive innovation. What are some of the things that you've actually seen as outcomes, maybe just for your team as well as your own expertise as a manager? Yes, so I've been with VMware for two and a half years. And when I first came, basically my team was a compilation of three separate teams. So each of them, the traditional silo, knew themselves in their own silo, but did not understand the power of the team across. So at that time, no one team was greater than a hundred people, okay, let's say. Now imagine a mighty force of 600 strong, marching in the same direction, trying to do things together. One of the things that we're trying to do is start to build platforms across our organization. And what are the commonalities? Not the differences. What are the commonalities across our teams so that we can drive that innovation much more effectively and efficiently? And so those are some of the things that we're doing that have another fun story to tell. The other thing that I do to try to create an inclusive environment is just have opportunities for team members to meet each other. It's as simple as, hey, I don't know, Lisa, Lisa, what do you do? Oh my gosh, I have a project that might need your help. I don't know how many times when we were working in the silos, we would end up calling someone outside our team to get the expert advice when it was on our own team. And so we had one event where we had two people that sat next to each other. Okay, didn't know each other at all. One needed some machine learning expertise. The other one was a machine learning enthusiast. They came together. They have now built a patent pending piece of microservice called InstaML. That's amazing. That's what happens when people, when you're included. And you think, why is this so difficult? In some cases, technology sort of fuels that right because we get so used to being I can do everything from here and my phone from an airplane from a hotel, from home, from wherever. So we get more used to being less communicative. Absolutely right. To let's actually, let's go back to the olden days where there was no device in front of us and actually have a conversation because to your point, suddenly you're uncovering, oh my gosh, all of these skill sets are here. We didn't know this for years. You're speaking my language. So you're absolutely right. There used to be this rule that said when you wanted to communicate to someone you'd have to tell them something seven times. Right, because they're busy doing other things. Well, in the age of social media, they say now it's 11 times. Oh, great. And how exactly? So how often have you seen people who are sitting like this and they're communicating with each other via text and they're sitting right here. Why it's important to go back old school, by the way, I'm big time old school. Whenever I wanna pick up the phone, talk to my kids. It's on the phone. I don't care if they're ready for me to talk to them. I just call them. It's because when you're innovating, it's not just the mind, it's the heart. And when you capture those human relationships, right, is what makes the innovation stick. It makes you wanna do more. It makes you want to achieve greater heights than you would've because you're invested. You see? When it's an academic exercise, it's like check the box. But when you're invested in your hearts in it and you, I feel like I can't let Lisa down. Believe me, you're gonna get more in-depth and more advanced innovation. So with that and kind of the empathy approach, I'd love to get your perspectives on AI. We talk about it all the time at every event that we go to on theCUBE globally. And there's different schools of thought. AI is fantastic, it's phenomenal. It's becoming a new standard. Even baby boomers know to some degree what it is. Then there's the, it's taking jobs away. Some go, but it's going to create new jobs. Then there's the whole ethics behind it. This morning, Joy really kind of showed us a lot of the AI models and facial recognition at big companies that are being built with bias. But one of the things I think that I hear resoundingly at events is it's going to be a combination of humans and machines because machines can learn a lot. But it's that heart that you just mentioned and that empathy that comes from the humans. So do you see those two as essential forces coming together as AI continues to grow and take over the world? It's essential. Like you say, technology is very, how do I say, neutral, okay? If you put it in front of a bad actor, it becomes bad. If you put it in front of a good actor, it becomes good. So technology is neutral, right? So now the goal is how do we ensure that we can tamp down the bad actors, the people who want to use it for bad. And by the way, I am a fundamental believer that there are some jobs that should be automated, right? I mean, come on, some of the, and by the way, things in the health industry when you have big data and you've got a lot of things, you have to process a lot of information so we can be more accurate on things. There are other examples of if it's not in check, it can go awry, right? Where we're over-reliance on machines. Unfortunately, the 737 Max 8 is an example of it being too smart, right? And that you needed the human to actually adjust. And so now I think also kind of combining a lot of the topics that we talked about, we need to train our children to understand that this technology is here to stay. And with each and every one of them, how can they take that wonderful technology and use it for good? And I think that's the whole, that's the piece around inclusion, that's the piece around building confidence in these young people and being examples. And so we need more people like Joy out there so that she has now raised this flag up saying, hey, did you realize this happened? We need more young people. By the way, she's a very young person. I'm totally impressed with what she's been able to do in her very few years, very, very inspiring. But if we all did a little bit of what Joy did, we could change the world. Absolutely. The accountability factor and the social responsibility is so important. I was impressed with her on many levels, but one of them was the impact that she's already making with Microsoft, IBM, and actually starting to impact facial recognition AI based on the research that she's done and show them, hey, you've got some problems here. So she's kind of at that intersection of, to your point, neutral technology, good actors, bad actors. Maybe it's not good or bad, it's just, well, this is the data that we have, and it's training the models to do this. Oh, but the accountability and the responsibility that it appears that Microsoft and IBM and Face++ and even Amazon, that she said, hey guys, look at how far off your models are. It sounds like these companies are actually starting to take some accountability and responsibility for that. Yes, well, I think she proved it in her talk because last year, right, the numbers were in the 80% tiles and now they're up to 95. So, you know, she's saying by kind of being that lightning rod on this issue, one person can make this amount of change. Imagine if all of us just did a fraction of what she did, right? I mean, I think, and again, I feel very, I guess as I'm older and I have my own children, just inspiring this generation to, so we can build up more joys in this world. So you have four boys. Yes. How are you inspiring them to not only become good humans, but also to look at the technology, the opportunities that it creates to be inclusive, why it's important. What are some of the lessons that even parted on your boys? Yes. First of all, I've, one thing that's really important to me is I want them to accept whoever their partner will be for whatever they want to do. So, if their partner wants to stay home and, you know, then you support them. If they want to work and go do the new support them, but just be supportive, be that partner, whatever that is, that's really important. The other thing is I think just my husband and I are excellent examples of how that is, because he's an orthodontist and I've got a busy high tech job. I'm traveling a lot. My husband does more than his fair share of the household duties and we split things pretty evenly. So I hope they've seen, witnessed. It's not just talk, it's action, and that this can actually work. And fortunately, boys are a little older now because in the beginning I thought, uh-oh, I'm working. I don't know how these boys are going to turn out, right? But three of them are college age and older and they really turned into some fantastic children. The youngest is on his path as well as a junior in high school and, you know, and I also see the type of friends that they make and how they treat women and other people that are different from them and just makes me very proud. I think the world needs more Kathy Chaus. I really do. Are you going off to see Ashley Judd with her? What are some of the things that you're looking forward to hearing her talk about? Well, it's funny, I just came from a VP session. She is, I, again, you see someone, right, on the screen and you see them as an actor and you heard about Time's Up and her speech and that sort of thing. But we had about an hour where she just answered questions. She is so thoughtful, so connected, so well spoken, communicates in a way that really touches you. She's another one of those lightning rods. I think WT2 did an excellent job of getting their speakers this year. And it's very different from Joy. It's much more from a, from her view and her mind, right, and arts and Joy's was much more from a technical aspect but the messages are the same, right? It's to be inclusive, understand and embrace diversity and be authentic to you. Inclusive animators. Kathy's so great to have you back on theCUBE and chat, I know we could keep chatting but we thank you so much for your time and can't wait for next year. Can't wait. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. For theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the show from Women Transforming Technology for the annual VMware. Thanks for watching.