 supposed to be inviting people. So as she said, she's got like 45 people she's inviting. So I don't know. I might invite myself. Yeah, because it's a public meeting. I'm irregular. 42,000 people are invited really. Wow, that's really intense. Now that he's right. I just want to thank you. Yeah, well I think that's... I think it's a surprising change of life for us. Probably kicking himself he didn't do it earlier. He's still working though, right? Yes, but theoretically less. I don't know what that means. So yeah, I wouldn't recommend retiring and letting go of stuff. You guys get off the same bus? No, we can start. You didn't realize in the dark room? No, I did go to the dark room. I did too. Okay, so we're good to go. We're going to start. This is the development review board meeting, Burlington, June 4th. We're in a different conference room now. We have a clipboard there, so people who want to have any status or get informed about projects or anybody who actually is an applicant, we suggest that you do sign that clipboard sometime during the evening. Since we don't have microphones there, I'm assuming we're recording this somehow. You're doing. Okay, a little different that way. So we don't have to worry about the microphones tonight. I will say we take up items in the order they're on the agenda, and we take testimony under oath. So when we call up a project, we ask anybody who's the applicant, anybody else who may testify in the project to be sworn in. Saying that, we don't have any communications tonight. Is that true? I don't see anything on the desk. Minutes, we have minutes from the last meeting. People can look at it. Details, there's a lot of stuff there. We don't have anything on the consent agenda. Actually, there's no changes to the agenda. I didn't skip it out if that is correct. And we'll go right to the first item, which is 281 Pro Street. It's an appeal of Azonia violations. Whoever the applicant is, you want to come up. I was going to say, Brad, it's up to you, but I think for appeals of violations, the city goes first. So my mistake. I was going backwards. You're going to let you. So I guess I should swear anybody in who's the city and anybody else who's going to speak on this to raise your right hand. And I think somebody else. Do you swear to tell the truth and the whole truth on the pain and pain of the anniversary? Yeah, I do. So you want to sit down and introduce yourself and explain the violation, I guess. Good afternoon. My name is Ted Miles. I'm with the Code and Correspondent Office. I'm the intern code compliance person. The question, the property at question here is 281 Pearl Street, which is formerly known as the Pearl Street Automotive, which is a service station that also was a gasoline servicing station, owned by his sisters and brothers investment group. The alleged violation, we'll call it that, is three parts, a change of views from a service station to a paid parking lot, a failure to obtain certain of occupancy on several old permits, and violation of an agreement that was dated June 16, 2004. The initial complaint on this property came in through a website called C-Click Fix in July 12th of 2017 about graffiti and that the property was no longer being used as a service station, that it was vacant at the time. What was that being? July 12th, 2017 was the initial date. I was not the code compliance officer at that time. I picked this up when Gene Francis retired at the beginning of this year, so I picked up a lot of this within the last five months. Over the last five months, there have been numerous visits to the properties, documenting through photos that you have, some of which you have, noting that the property is being used as a paid parking lot and is not being used as a service station, even in repairs or setting any gasoline at the property. A warning letter was sent out in July 5th of this year, followed thereafter, but they noticed a violation to the property owner, sisters and brothers. This is a residential high district zone in Ward 8E, which in this case being that the service station has been a discontinued use, is a nonconforming use, and because it has been longer than one year since 2017, it could not be re-established as a service station. To date, as of today even, the property is still being used as a paid parking lot. Close that door. There we go. So what the city is asking with this violation is that the owner restore the items for the 2004 agreement, and I do apologize that it's not in your packet, the agreement that you have copies if you need such, so I do apologize that it was not included, or the owner can apply for a permit to establish just the landscaping issues for the agreement of 2004, not for change of uses, because at this point in time, the city, we are contending that the change of use for the service station, because it has been discontinued, is no longer permitted. Can you just do that agreement? I do have a copy of it here. Yeah, can we see that? Yeah. I can. It's actually, and those are actually documented. I would deal with private agreements. The items on the agreement are in your conclusion on page five, those specific items. What is the nature of the city? Yes, the agreement was from a previous notice of violation. It was done with the owner, please, Mr. Lawyer, probably to purchase of the sisters and brothers in 2004. So these specific items, there are six items on page five of your packets that the violations are very specific in that agreement, and in the parentheses are the numbers that coincide with that agreement. I'd like Kim to comment, since she's here, on whether we can even consider enforcing or dealing with something like this, because it looks like a settlement agreement, frankly. And I'm curious how we have the authority to enforce conditions in this. It says it's filed in the land records, and it says it shall be specifically enforceable, but it doesn't say how, and I think this is my first time in the DRB being asked to sort of propose conditions, you know, agreement like this. It doesn't look like this was done to issue a permit, so I'm curious. I don't have any comments. Okay. But it was a time recollection was because of a violation, so it would have to do with zoning, and the conditions imposed were, I believe, to come into compliance with a prior permit. Well, running a service station, right? Right. Which is now discontinued. So at this point in 2004, the service station was still in operation? Yes. Yes. Do we know what that prior permit was? Do we have the permit number or anything? I don't see it. It does say permit 87. Yeah, 022. Okay, so it's in that agreement there. If we find that they have abandoned the non-conforming use, and therefore it's no longer permitted to authorized use, is the city still asking us to enforce these conditions or is the result there that it's just no longer authorized? The conditions that we're asking to enforce are not uses of the property. Their items such as guardrails installed, removal of the snow, they're all conditions that have nothing to do with the use of the property. Can I ask a question of Scott? Since I'm so loving to volunteer. Just my case. If I'm remembering, if I'm thinking this correctly, the numbering system, number 87-022, does that mean it's a 1987 permit? It's just who you're 87. So that would be, that's why it's number 22 So, we don't know, no one's given us a copy. So one other thing about this agreement here in 2004, and we're here because we've got a nose of violation which basically pertains to the use of this property, one as a parking area which is not permitted, and then you shape or form. That's what we're hearing here. And the question is, is the gas station service repair now not permitted because they've been discontinued for a certain amount of time. So if those two things are true, it seems sort of questionable to enforce this on somebody who doesn't really have a functioning property. I mean, is this? Well, ultimately, it's a discontinued use. They're going to need to come in for an application for 80% of the property to do anything with it. And at that point, they, you know, they can address this. Technically, if they don't do this, there's a nose of violation for being out of compliance with this agreement. Site plan approval, I mean, if it's directly connected to the use of the property which is now discontinued, I think that's a difficult, that they would be connected. Yes, just for site plan issues. I may, Brad. We're in an odd spot, we're in, right? Has it been on conforming these continuance, right? We're separating the use from the site. So part of this is saying, well, we're going to leave the site totally vacant, fine, maybe, but the site needs to comply, right, with the most recent approval. I mean, what makes sense here is that the property be brought into compliance with the residential use, or you find that, gee, the commercial use is okay and then suddenly the site doesn't make sense. But it seems like doing this one. Because of the discontinues, it puts us in an odd spot. But we sort of, there's one step at a time. There's no violation on use in the, do that one first and then see what follows after that. Any other questions for the city before us right now? The other piece that we're asking for too is also to remove the unpermitted signs that on the property currently. The signs that are on there are statements of signage. The last permitted signs that were supposed to be there previously were mobile signs. Do you know when the signs changed? I do not know when the signs changed. It was about a long ago, though. It was not that long ago. Normally the previous station there was actually a street mobile. What? A pro street mobile. And the violations that are before us really don't say one thing or the other about the existence of the sign. It's a different sign, but there's a sign there that is for use that may not exist, but the sign is legitimate at the moment other than the contact. I think I know kind of what you're saying. It's kind of like any other business that changes a sign that requires a permit to actually change a sign. You can't do that. These would never have been permitted. So if they actually, with the signs there, they would actually be kind of sending out a long message too since it is a non-conforming discontinued use. Can I just have one question about the abandonment of these? I think the use of a little bit of water pressure. Is that right? Yes. It looks like there really hasn't been any consumption of water since April 2017. Correct. Okay. Do you have any other evidence of lack of use? I mean, you asked the applicant for any other information about what they have done there. We can obviously hear from them, but I'm interested in whether the city has any other evidence of use or lack of use. No. This particular area is actually my street patrol area. So I'm out there two or three days a week at that property. So I have probably had at least 100 photos I could have submitted to you, but there's no reason to keep sending you photos of the same vehicles in the parking lot over and over and over again. So you have not dumped it down a bit? So you've not observed the vehicle servicing in that area? I have not seen any vehicle servicing at that building in two years. All the way? Here from the applicant? So I'd like to introduce yourselves and then... My name is Joseph Andy. I'm not... I'm Robert Harris. I'm Chloe. Yeah, we... Back in 2004, we bought the property from Fred Lawyer. It was a service station repair shop. There were some items that were done with the city with the agreement, with the city on stuff that he was out of compliance when we bought it. And that was brought into compliance. So back in 2004. And you were aware of this agreement? Yes. Because I signed it. I believe I signed it. I'm not sure. Maybe now. I'm aware of that agreement. Okay. In the meantime, back then we had gasoline, auto repair shop. We operated that. Okay. And we rented parking spots. There were six parking spots on the west side of Pearl Street. The doctors and... Up to our street people, the doctors. Six parking spots. We always rented those from there. We operated the station all along. 2017, we had somebody push the... In the winter, 2017, somebody broke into the back bathroom, froze it in the morning time, blew the pipes out. We shut the water off. Yeah, that's when we shut it off. We had the water shut off. And then out of that sense, we stopped selling gasoline there. But the repair shop was never stopped. I'm just curious. How do you do a repair shop without any water? I don't need water. I don't need water. Whenever I work, do I bring off my own water and jokes? I don't. I don't need water. I just go back to the other shops right around the corner, down the street. I don't really need a lot of water. I wash my hands. But I still work on them at night in the weekends. It's not really open for the business. It's not open for a day. There is a sign on there. There is a sign for lease to activate to have full summer come to develop the property or whatever. But in the meantime, we still were using it as a garage repair shop. That never stopped. He works there. We have another mechanic, John, who goes there. Any overflow comes down from the other station from the handy shell downtown. We bring them up there, long-term repairs. We're not there every day. We're not there for a customer use. If you drive in, if you pull in it, there's a sign that says go to handy shell for repairs. Okay. Send them back. They're on there. They're up there. If you have a long list of items that's going to take a while to get your car repaired, we usually bring it up. We have one of them. I can bring it back to the other shop and get it done. It's still functioning lift. It's still functioning compressive. All the tools are there. It just doesn't have water. All the tools are there. The lifts, everything is there. We work on our own equipment there. Okay. And, you know, and something that's going to take a long day that we could take care of. I'm curious too, are you talking a few with property issues in town? Are you aware of this being a non-compliant use and the expiration of a non-compliant, you know, and that non-compliant uses expire after a year? Yes. I am aware of that. That's why we don't share it now? I would. Yeah. He's been there. He's there. I can show you him versus wherever he is. I mean, we're there. The electricity is always on. I mean, he's there at night, weekends. And you were saying the parking, the car, the areas that are rented as parking spaces? Sure. Since the gas station, the gas pumps are gone, closed down. I did increase, we did increase on the parking. From that. We probably have the 15 cars parking there now. And we have our employees at the shell station, the part of the office, they park up there, and they work now. Do you work at this location regularly? Is this your regular office? I'm at the regular handys, but I also go to the mobile. How often do you go to the service? It depends on the work in the week. At least two, three, four times a week, I'm in and out. What kind of work specifically do you do there? I do body work. I do a little painting. I do welding. I have my welder there, my body tools. I don't do tires, because we have a tire machine. We send them over to the other shop, the station, the handys, not the simons. There's no actual customer interaction there. Are you surprised that no one is, the city says, they've never seen any work being done here? Probably because I've been there evenings, weekends, I don't know. I've seen the fire department come through there, and I've seen the police out there. Could we get testimony from the police or the fire department since going for a nine to four, it's a nine to five? Yeah, I mean... Sure. You can request that. You said you had electric bills? Electric bills, of course. And you mentioned some other invoices. Do you have invoices that indicate that work was done at this location? Not this location. Do you have video surveillance there? No, I don't have them. Are there any other employees that work at this, go to this specific location regularly? So sometimes John, said the internet goes up and works there? Same here. Same here, large. Other technician works there? Well, see, usually I'm there at night, so the other guys are already gone from the first station. Like working there this week? Well, yeah, I still got jobs in there right now. Is there a reason you work there only at night? Because the other shop's closed. Plus, I have my own stuff in there, too. You're walking to come see it now? You can come down and see it all. How about neighbors? Do your neighbors know that you're working there at night? Probably the guys in the house in the back that are doing construction on that. And they may have seen me on the roof. Do you actually employ you, Mr. Anthony? Yes. I work regularly at the handy service center. Where is that? Right by the town that's mogul. So the streets are across from the city market. So I guess I'm on Whiskey Avenue. The one that's, I thought they were closed or something, or they're just rebaving it or something? Yeah, we had the tanks pulled out. We went to the other shop doing that work there. Was it Mexico that went to the shop? No, no. No, there's no more gas. There's no gas. So now we only have just the garage there, the repair shop. And that's what we're going to plan on doing on the grocery out. The grocery. We're going to, this fall, our plan is to take out the tanks and the pumps. And just leave it on completely as a repair shop. And parking lot. And parking lot, of course. And that's a part of the violation. Parking lot is a non-conforming use in this district. And you're saying it's been in existence for, from day one. Red lawyer, the guy I bought it from, he always rented spots. I rented his spots all along. From day one, since we bought it. Right. But we increased. Right now, we increase the spots. So how many spaces do you lease now? We lease 15 spots. 15. How many, do you know how many? Fred leased? Fred, I think had six or eight. Fred's still alive tonight. Fred lawyer? Of course. Yes. Sorry. And how about the sign? The sign is new. When did that change? The sign was changed, I believe a year and a half ago, at least when mobile was leaving, we just took the mobile sign out, put down Simon. The same size, same everything. It's the sign itself. And just the name changed. The letters changed. And what's the sign there for? I'm curious, you've got no business day yet. We would have gone out and go on branded gas. We were going to go Simon's gas on branded. Because mobile... But you decided not to do that. We decided not to do that. Now, we stopped selling gas after that You didn't get a permit to change the sign, do you agree? No, I did not get a permit. I actually... I left that for the gas company. Our own valley. Our suppliers. They usually go out and they usually get the signs and change. You know, they're distributors. And they did it. I don't know if they did it or not. I don't know if they applied for it. Well, all they did it was put down, just change the letters. They did not change anything else. Any other questions or more? Because I know there's a couple of people in the public. Does anybody else want to comment? Do you want to take a seat? And I know there's at least one or two people who may have something to say. Karen Long and I walk downtown day and night for work, for shopping. And I've never, ever seen a light on in this building. I mean, to me it's been an abandoned eyesore with graffiti all over and peeling paint for years. And I have noticed over the last few years that in the daytime the lot is full and at night it is not full. So I don't think they are cars that are parked there that are being worked on. I think they're cars for employees. I think some of the employees at Burlington Health and Rehab park there that it's not just handy employees from around the corner. I'm wondering if the building is heated and if the electricity is being used. I mean I seriously have never, ever seen it except for an abandoned building and my concern is just the look of it and the graffiti that is everywhere on the pumps, on the building, on that and basically you know I just feel like for our neighborhood and for we have two places to get downtown, Pearl Street and Main Street is a really big eyesore and I think it should be cleaned up. So basically and I'm really surprised this is the first I've heard that it's actually a business like a repair shop because I have seriously never, ever seeing lights on. It would be very strange to have a business not having water. I think for safety in case an employee cut themselves you really have to have a shower to like clean out your eyes. I mean it just seems really bizarre to not have water in a facility that you're working. So anyway, that was all and I really support the city for taking care of this because I think it's just an unsightly piece of property on you know one of our Main Streets into our downtown. Thank you. Any questions? Great, thanks I mean let me, that is just basically it. And I just support the city for enforcing zoning. Thank you. Do you want to come back up? Yeah, I just want to ask the lady a question. When's the last time she walked by? Well, I don't, you know, I just didn't you know I do require, I think it's been raised and I think it would be about how is the building heated? The oil, oil. So do you have oil bills for that? And electric bills to try to be helpful to see those. Electric bill, I have more. How do you handle safety issues? Are you subject to pollution? He has safety glasses on a money works, money works mechanic. He has hand cleaners you know the hand cleaner to wash his hands out of the gel. And he's to wash that and then if he needs to go to the bathroom, the user comes down to the shop to go for the rehab. Do you don't have any facilities? Somebody is using hazardous materials, paint and he's doing some welding and body work. Do you have any sort of eye cleaning station? Do you think it would be required for an unmatched? No, I don't. We have goggles. He puts on, and he puts on gloves when he does a full force mat. Full force mat. Before you. Before you. I guess one of the things I want to ask is when you mentioned you're renting out the parking space, I sort of assumed that was to general members of the public. It wasn't like to your employees. Is that true? Who are the people in the parking there? The burr of the rehab. The Genesis, they call me some. They're on Pearl Street. They park there. Because they don't have enough parking and they ask us if they can park there. How long have you been renting to them? For the last three years, four years and then the doctors on that side have always rented them for years from day one. I have a comment about the graffiti. I understand it's an ongoing battle because I've painted it over and they've come back and painted it again the very same amount. Part of the reason for the graffiti is that it looks like an abandoned building. The lights aren't on the outside but inside the lights I've never shut them off. They're on right now. It's on day and night. The graffiti and no one at the time happened. Somebody sprayed it. We waited till the springtime and he's all cleaned up. I don't know if Miss the lady won't buy there for the last three or four weeks or a month but she can see it. I don't know. And it happens again. Plus they hit Simon's Handys mobile there too. The same letters they were on Pearl Street they put on the other side. I painted all three doors there and all the other three again. Actually four doors at a time. But then it attempts them to come back and spray it again. It's an ongoing battle. Do they have painted it? I'm going to ask the city inspector a question too. This is on your route. Have you seen lights on this place? There are a couple of lights that are left on inside the garage base that I've continually seen. I'm kind of like the emergency lights on it when you go into your buildings. There have not been any large lights of the property. I have not seen anybody actually in the building. Any kind of repairs because I actually have and again I've been included because there's over a hundred photos I have of vehicles that have been stored in the bays. To include a red pickup truck that's been in the left hand bay for quite some time now. A company called Clean Nest is also renting parking spaces there to include one inside the building and I think that's one of those pictures of that company is actually in your packet in Clean Nest. In your photos you'll see some of the same vehicles over and over again within that. I contend that there actually are more than 15 vehicles at the property being leased because I have been identified to at least three different companies that are these things places there. Mr. Handy has identified two of them. The third one is the Clean Nest Company that has two vans there. In your packet also in one of your photos actually there are signs directing people for service to 75 South Miduske Avenue. So if it was actually somebody on-premise that actually did any kind of repair they wouldn't be directing to South Miduske Avenue. So have you seen vehicles coming in and out of the garage base? No. But you've seen a vehicle parked in one of them just continuously? Yes. There's actually a food cart or something that's currently parked in the bay on the right-hand side. It's been there for how many days now? When you've looked inside all the bays have been occupied? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. Sometimes the Clean Nest vehicle is gone. But some of these vehicles that parked there has a parking lot of parking in front of the door. So in order to get the vehicle standing out those vehicles have to be moved. What hours are you seeing cars parked in the... Any time between 10 and 22 Friday some of the photos I have they all have different dates and timestamps on them. There are a couple of them that don't have date and timestamps on them that were not my photos but those are taken in July of 2000 from Gene Francis. But again if you want I can print out every photo I have for you to show months of timelines of the property with no usage and the same thing that was parked over there again. To conclude I'll be up until today. I have one question. Did you want to ask Jim? Just real quick with regard to the question over the use as a private parking lot I quickly looked through the files on planning and there is no rule for a private parking lot. The permits are in regards to the service station. So you know they would have to establish as a pre-existing legal non-formity and then certainly any increase to that would be a violation but also I don't think there has been established that there is a pre-existing legal. Can I ask you a question about that? Because I hear a lot the city wanting to use parking lots. Like for example legal aid remote legal aid to my neighborhood they don't use it at night and they don't have people to park there. So the city I think it's public works and encourages people to share the parking lots and there is payment agreements. I mean that's allowed to happen. I think that's a different first of all different area of the city but also I think you have to come in and get approval to do that for the parking structure. So like anywhere that has parking like if it's a service station parking has to be used for servicing only. What is occurring here is a private parking lot use. They are working out spaces for profit for parking lot. It's a separate use to find in the ordinance. This particular property is a residential district not commercial. Right. Yeah that's mixed. The areas I'm thinking over either medium and city residential they're legal parking or legal parking lots probably. But that's the essence of the complaint here right is that they've changed the use that they've the non-conforming use that was allowed to be grandfathered has expired and they've changed the use into a parking lot. Okay. I mean we definitely see businesses that we give permits to based on the amount of parking they have available and then they turn around to use it for other uses. In commercial I think our experience is in commercial lots that's actually I think that's okay and residential neighborhoods they cannot do that. Well not if we've permitted them with a certain amount of parking spaces to use. Okay. I guess I'm just saying that we're pretty inconsistent with the city. So obviously we're only looking at this case but I'm trying to grasp where we would look to to understand where this limitation is. Parking lots that are parking lots and they have multiple uses. Here we have some that's not a parking lot that's being used. Right. Or we've permitted a business and said you have to have this amount of parking spaces and then they turn around and use it for festivals or whatever related to that business and no longer is a parking lot. So the industry plays so it's a well kept secret but you do need a permit to do the after hours use right the CDO actually expressly enables that. It's part of it's under section 8-1-15 After hours service station? No. So whatever the business is right nine to five business right the ordinance contains express provision for enabling that after hours shared parking use. Okay. And then I do have another question about the hours and I don't know if we can answer this but does the business have a permit to operate later at night or on the weekends? Is that something Is this particular business? If it was still a service service station? Yeah. Is there an actual permit for this use? It's a little confusing in the record whether there is a permit or not and what the permit is for. The building was built in 1964 as a two bay service station and sometimes there after the third bay was added to it. There was a near packet there as to the timelines of that back on information but it was built as a service station that has been continued as a service station until a couple years ago. But there is a permit 87 series Yes. To construct a 12 by 30 addition as an extension of a 25% of a non-performing use. Okay. And yes prior to that there was a special exception for allowing this to be built. Applicants have said that it meets the definition of a fuel service station. It seems to me they've conceded there's not any fuel being provided there any longer. And then Kim I don't know if you agree with their interpretation but I read the definition of that as saying it can be used for lubricating, washing, cleaning or servicing those vehicles but not including what they've said they do there which is painting or major repair there I don't know if you've looked at the definition but it sounds like you're spot on. Okay. Body shops are different views isn't it? I have one question for the opponent. Just a quick one. I'm just curious Joe this has a big rental sign in there. What's the intention with having this it looks like the property is available for rent. As what? As what? As a service station redevelopment whoever comes in at least what we're trying to advertise as service station auto repairs. That's just curious. Okay. Well just a lot of the body work I'm saying Bruce say is not done like with guns and spray a spray can touch up you know minor stuff not major collision it's not like really a body shop it's just overflow tinker and not open to the customers not open to the public we haven't been doing that and we don't pump gas you know people still stop by to try to get gas so I was there Sunday and like three people came in trying to get gas so okay questions do we want to ask for any other data on oil or electricity? I don't feel the need for it to rule on new vehicle okay so we're going to close the public hearing thank you okay the next item is 135 Crest Drive applicant for dual use as accessory dwelling unit and bed and breakfast is the applicant here? 135 yeah in the dober oh okay property so this is for dual use okay okay we'll cover it in a moment and and it's I actually have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you on it one of them is as an accessory dwelling unit it's limited to 30% of the area of the house and when I look at the floor plan that's submitted you know the house I calculated before 30% of the house is like 430 square feet and this level here is looks to be almost it's hard to tell how much of this is whether maybe the little area bond is serious but it looks a lot bigger than 30% of the upper floor it does and I brought that to us and you brought me in a new floor plan so they reduced the size of the ADU so you brought this just sitting in the desk so it's showing 600 square feet ADU space and when you add that to that existing habitable space it's less than the 30% so it does work out I think Brian's going to pass it out there's four so I see so it's just this center area sort of taking off the fridges right because she has she has the washroom that's been in the basement she has a storage room and she has the land in there and it all was up in the basement so then she decided to because to begin with when she bought the building it was a finished off basement but it was never permitted so then she said well okay well let's we keep these spaces because she has that storage and that they got the washroom in there so then she split that off so this is a walk out basement it is a couple of things to ask so there's the owner utility room at the end of the basement can anybody get to that without going through the apartment no so it's got limited use technically the owner has to request permission to do that okay and is there any this is one of those things that bugs me is that is there any way for somebody from the front of the house to get to the back of the house on a walkway I mean there's no path, there's no sidewalk there's nothing to get to this door on the back of the house this is on the back of the house yeah so I mean how so in the middle of winter somebody is going to shovel the grass what she says is yes to that but she she did also say that she has connections with the US Coast Guard and they are a bunch of friends of hers which is going to be using this from time to time and so the front entry of her house leads right down to this space too so I don't have a clear answer on that it looks like we can get to it from the garage from the garage the front has the watch on it there's no covered entry yeah and you come right down that and you come right in that way and then you have to get down a hallway oh okay those are the I guess we can talk about that until we're on access to this especially if it's a B a B for somebody to get to this back door in terms of lighting you know they need lighting or something like that so I think that might be I was asking the staff what the lock cover is in case we're thinking maybe we can add something I have to look at an area of it or progress to the government to see if there were but it wasn't brought up because there was no change at the application stage it's a 15,000 square foot lock assuming, yeah, they probably have enough room for a walkway around the back yeah I do not square you in I just realized that you want to just raise your right hand that the customer who gave is the whole truth yes sorry about that we're a little backwards okay so we're going to close public hearing then and I don't know if we may collaborate tonight we'll discuss that at the end if you're able thank you the next item on the agenda is ten university placed UBM replacing three formally removed parking spaces yes yes over there might be good if you could do it because then the camera could look at it and you could see it sorry on UBM items I typically make the disclosure that our firm very rarely does work for UBM totally unrelated to these parking and building related issues I don't think that works objectively on this but I want to disclose it to the parties in the public if anyone has any concern I'm happy to okay our review on this is somewhat limited to certain areas yes I do want to swear you in you want to raise, you're just ready do you want to, anybody else might testify you want to raise your right hand do you swear to tell the whole truth I don't know if you've heard or I do okay introduce yourself okay so I am Lonnie Raven I work at campus planning services for the University of Vermont this is Derek Reed he works for Krebs and Lansing and he's the engineer on this project so this is part of a slightly larger project to do some infrastructure improvements and since we're digging up the area we recently received the zoning permit for that, thank you very much that was an administrative permit and that is and this was part of that project but we separated it out because we want to do this in the summer and we recently got the permit so we can start building on that portion that got permitted and not this portion this portion is to increase accessibility in the area, it's a very crowded area of the University it's internal to the University and part of this project is to increase accessibility in any case these particular parking spots one is a handicap accessible spot so that's going to give new accessibility to that area of campus and the service spots are for the new STEM buildings that are finishing up at this point I do want to note that staff did comment and we agree and accept all those comments so there's a sidewalk that splits the marked area of the handicapped parking space and does that have a curve I'm assuming that's flushed with the asphalt, the sidewalk yes, very good that's correct the grades were difficult so we made that first space of inaccessible so I had to have the east foot aisle the curve is flush part of the aisle which is the sidewalk as well so it's I can't think of any reason that that does not work it just seems an odd way to do it because basically somebody walking down that walk is also going to think the walk goes from right feet to free feet yeah it's only painted I understand I I understand that but I mean to me I would either strike it all the way across the sidewalk because I think that may feel a bit better it just seems given you're trying to do a good thorough job on this this does not work that way I think we can push the I would paint the whole thing it would be easier for somebody to walk across the striping and feel like they're going to you know do you need all three of those spaces I mean the other option is to eliminate one of the service spaces and have the whole accessibility area there was a strong desire to have this new building the two service spaces the south side of the building has additional ADA spaces the south side of the STEM building has more ADA so we really had that as they've been working on the building they sort of felt the need to have a place to park outside of the travel way is that discovery part that one is yes that's discovery I mean I'm sure you're hearing the STEM but then it's going to mean yes I would say one recommendation request for future applications we saw this maybe two weeks ago it'd be really helpful on your site plans to start with a broad campus map that shows the location of the proposed work I mean we can obviously figure it out by looking at the details of the buildings but I think for the public to understand what you're doing it would be helpful to say where is the location where we're proposing this would be helpful thank you so are these spaces in light of that at all are they going to be accessible to those going to the Fleming is that right or am I picturing this well it's a little bit of a big picture if you go to north of Odie there's a big parking lot there and we there wasn't actually an ADA room to get from yeah and that would get you to Fleming this first part of the project finally creates a route that is now ADA we're redoing part of the road to allow the crosswalk to be 2% and this path gets access and existing conditions are shown but this now allows people to walk around STEM and go to the Bailey Health Library which didn't have this is finally yeah I remember that was okay thanks for stating that I was just curious 2% 1 to 20 was that 2% the 1 to 20 150 yeah the crosswalk and just to clarify the hash marks are really just for loading and unloading for left and right wouldn't like permanently what does it mean that this is their space I think public one ask a question hi my name is Sharon Busher I'm a city counselor that represents Ward 1 and so in the application it talked about the parking master plan that hadn't been really adopted or whatever we call the process there's no undertake with their parking master plan but it's under review I guess right now and in that in the communication from staff and from the applicant it said that these three spaces were ADA spaces but they also said it was also trying to recapture the deficit of the parking spaces that were in their plan and so that raised a concern for me because I would just like to be very clear that that I think that I would like the university not to just cram in spaces where they can find a place to do it in order to deal with that deficit so if they have a real purpose so be it and if it really improves accessibility and so when the conversation that you had with the applicant was going on I wasn't clear about where the entryway was for the people that would be parking here who needed the ADA compliance spaces there was a discussion about on the other side there were more spaces and where is the entryway and how would a person navigate that would use those spaces where would they be going to and how does that improve their accessibility is really my question and I really couldn't pull that together and I had a difficult time online trying to enlarge and get a really good look at this so forgive me if it is really clear to all of you but it wasn't clear to me anyways thank you so maybe you could explain exactly what you were talking about from a public street I think it's a real question to that spot I think the goal is for this spot to provide access to this door as one option which you can't see and I apologize if I did have a bigger schedule you would see a sidewalk that came to here and would provide access to Culkin which we don't have and would also provide access to Bowie Hall but I think one of the questions is how does a car get to that spot oh oh oh I'm sorry there is a university place I'm sorry and it comes down between the drive south of building there's a drive between between two of the buildings between Williamson there is a drive there is I know that so they would be but these are predominantly to access the two may I ask apologize I know better so these faces would be for people to access Bowie they could access the Discovery Hall they could also I think we're going to get Lundy's going to draw a map on our whiteboard you're going to pull up a map pull up a map on my little trusty perfect so it really does improve accessibility that's my point I also wanted to say a couple things so if you want I can bring up Google Maps and show you exactly I can do that offline or now but the other thing so before I do that I just want to say this is a main pedestrian area this is a a shared road pedestrian and vehicles regular vehicles are not typically allowed down here this leads from university places here this road leads down to Rony, Calc and then the Fleming Green so there's a lot of pedestrians here and service vehicles so somebody could add that this is all pedestrian up here this way a handicap person can access this road now much more easily than before this road leads to everywhere on campus it leads to the new to both STEM buildings it leads to the central campus residential halls it leads to library it leads to the main to basically the central campus this is a very tight area and we are trying to improve both the aesthetics of the area and accessibility so that's about and it's not a fireman who has the ballard in it or anything like that not that I know I hope you would know but I did want to also address the joint institutional parking and management plan that's in progress that's not a part of this project so if we had a joint institutional parking and management plan approved then I wouldn't even need to come here and talk to you about parking but since we don't, then I do and there are some I'm just curious so we had that sort of on agenda a few weeks ago and it was pulled from the agenda I have it sitting right here in December it was yes there was a reason and it's still in discussion is that the idea? there's issues not necessarily with UVM but we're trying to also improve what we submit so that it's better so in terms of parking spaces over the years we have reduced the parking spaces on campus by hundreds basically so when I say this is replacing this is replacing a very very small fraction but it's not new additional parking spaces that we're just putting on campus because we feel like adding more parking we do have to address parking generally on campus that's way, way outside of the scope of this project and we're working very hard to do that within the context of the joint institutional parking and management plan are there other instances at other buildings that you have this kind of handicap parking space adjacent to a building that requires going down one of these shared roadways pedestrian and vehicle we have shared roadways all over campus sometimes they're striped with a little cat paws so it's a sort of differentiate for where pedestrians are and cars are but we have a lot of those spaces we do manage multimodal spaces with cars, with bikes with people, with skateboards with now there's going to be e-bikes and maybe e-scooters at some point and that's pretty typical of college campuses in general how do you sign the availability of like on this access it's typically not a public way is there a sign that says no access or that it's limited and then how do you indicate to someone who would need to access the handicap space that it's okay for them to drive down to access the handicap space what the traffic sign is I do know that regular vehicles are not allowed to go all the way in there typically there's authorized vehicles only, no entry there's things that make it very clear so how do you then let the handicap person know there actually is a space for them there they don't need to pay attention to the no authorized access sign so parking transportation we did a we've been continuing to improve A&A spaces and I apparently there's a number of requests that people staff say I need a space you don't have a space close enough to this building so I've been working with them to try to fix that issue so apparently parking transportation has a request list and then staff members are told this can be your space and it's only one and a number of buildings which is so this is going to be like a sign space it could be that's where they can tell them and then limited people know it does seem like it sounds like we'll have an opportunity to look at this more campus wide broadly soon but understanding your signage to make sure that these spaces which are great improvement and seem important are all noted and are available to people to actually park in would be helpful to understand I don't know that we need it for this but yeah I generally there is access to handicap spaces for cars I don't know exactly how it's signed because I don't you know the traffic signs are typically not something that I deal with but if there's a handicap accessible space there may be access to it it's not going to be the space isn't only so good as providing public accessibility it could be great for employees but if one of the points is to make this less accessible area of the campus more available to people that have that limitation it would be nice to understand that it's signed in a way to allow them to know it's there having an overall context map and part of the explanation that that map would provide is exactly what Jeff is talking about is how is this point controlled and how is something accessed I don't think it's necessary for this item right now but it definitely as these things come up I definitely think that needs to be part of it it's free of other locations I apologize typically you do have a site map that's just broken off from the other project so I do apologize not to dispute but I will actually say there's a number of small submittals that put to us from UVM that are piecemeal that we just get to see this little thing and generally having in contact would be very helpful I know you can't any other questions for the applicant here if you want to add aside from the site map we did put everything into the application good so for just sort of relating to this but also Jemma and I did look through it but I'll recycle it now because it sounds like we're going to get a new one and I just can't remember clarity around accessibility within that just addressing some of the questions we had about making sure that it's clear how roadways and pathways are accessible to the general public and then specifically for accessible parking spaces I don't know if that's something that could be addressed but considering the number of questions I thought I was the only one that cared about it so it might be good to just have then addressed in Jemma a clear and intentional way that really outlines the differentiation but also the inclusion within that whole plan I'll pass that on the joint structural parking management plan is joint with UVM Champlain College and the medical center UVM's I know not the only one I'll pass it on then for sure and often times I did have a lot of questions about accessibility and that has been addressed by saying don't worry the city addresses ADA through the city it might be under a purview but it's taken care of but I think it would be really nice to call it out and really make it part of the plan to make it inclusive and recognize that folks that have different abilities are on the forefront of that kind of planning yes and I'm sure I know you agree and I know you don't make that decision so thank you for passing in the line thank you one other agenda item which is the conflict of interest here by law revision that Scott would make a presentation on this so has alluded to generally parking is addressed right now anyhow within the core campus and the property we're just talking about is located within one the CDO specifically says any new surface parking one new surface parking space can be permitted only if it's offset by equal or more parking spaces lost subject to DRV review which is why you saw application for three spaces so two points one is generally you see parking as part of an overall development whether it's the multi-purpose event center or Jeffers Hall or whatever and those projects were both covered by the institutional parking manager plan and showed the NABLA parking have a nice day this was just for parking and so goes in front of you for this section of the CDO what the proposed draft amendment to your bylaws does is it delegates administrative authority for surface parking that would otherwise for administrator review so before you get too excited about that the threshold for administrator review is 500 square feet or less so that's almost three spaces so we still see three spaces we still see three compliant spaces maybe not three compact spaces is that new 500 square feet or like three purpose 500 square feet like if this is an existing driveway it would be net net so they're converting like existing apartments to parking spaces oh that's conceivable so the bylaw changes to propose that we delegate to you all the authority to approve any of those net changes within the port campus area under that 500 square feet is that really the single change in this document the single change it was subtle I suppose it was read when you approved it was read online so do we need to approve that in the open meeting versus in the deliberative you need to approve it whether you do it now or separately well, any other questions for Scott on this particular item I think we're going to close the public hearing so we have a few things we can