 everybody back here at Segal Talk at the Martin E. Segal theater center, the Graduate Center CUNY in Midtown Manhattan. It's a sunny day here in New York and after surprisingly cold days last week it seems like spring is with us but of course all that what the time of corona brought us also has not yet left us and we are in the middle of it even so so many signs are promising and the current leadership the speech from Biden yesterday shows that there are things are possible America isn't moving fast but it is still a devastating time for the performing arts I had a call with European curators yesterday that a state right not on this phone just gave 200 million to artists for projects they are trying to put three four festivals together and there's a lot of complications but here in the US we really don't know where it's going it's a time of uncertainty things are changing have already changed most probably so close we do not really see it only later on it will be much clearer and in order to help us to process the moment and we are in we have with us one of the great contributors to the cultural and artistic life in New York City over decades a Titan in his field we look up to him and we all followed also what was on his mind when he invited artists from around the world New York is often a bit provincial in some way a lot of what we see on stages are Americans plays or British plays and very very little from around the world and like a beacon of light a house on the hill a shining one is BAM BAM's festival and for over over 30 years that Joe has been involved with it in the history in the legacy of a Harvey Liechtenstein Harvey who actually came to the Segal Center and it was his last public interview he gave a visit him was a couple of times before that and so we feel very very connected to BAM the BAM archives this fantastic book about the next wave festival so Joe's thank you for joining us oh great pleasure Frank are you in the Hamptons are you in Bali are you in a fancy place I'm on East 9th Street between Broadway and University Place in Manhattan that is where I am in my living room right now amazing amazing and if we talk before this is a fantastic William Kentridge painting behind you yes I had the great privilege of working with Bill Kentridge several times at BAM and this was the background of this is the iconic images that he created for his design and direction of Mozart's The Magic Food which I made in the BAM so I mean that in itself what a great piece of work of art that humanity many times produced and and Kentridge and you all together that's amazing maybe one day it could be with us that would be also fantastic but let me all of you talk a little bit about Joe Malilla we also have international listeners and viewers who do not know as much about BAM and BAM is a great institution here in New York City and Joe was the executive producer from that could say just when the last millennium ended 1999 to 2018 and he was responsible for BAM's artistic direction overseeing programming in all its performance spaces which is the Howard Gilman Opera House the Howie Theatre which co-created it away with Peter Brooke the BAM Fisher the experimental space at Rose cinemas the very significant place also for movies how it is curated and Joe spent and served previously at BAM's producing director and founding director of the Next Wave Festival it's an iconic festival the only thing we have in New York City that is in a way a festival even so it's not a festival in the European sense where for two or three weeks a city celebrates theater it spends over a season but it is a festival it's the Next Wave Festival it deputed in 1983 and for 35 years Joe has worked at BAM and he really really has fostered the work work of emerging and establishing artists and New York artists American artists and global and international artists so a lot of dance programming great dance program opera programming so it is very unique over he has done and he has really been recognized for also creating such international partnerships and long-lasting friendships with artists who knew this is the place to be not only for artists waiters like Bob, Bob Wilson but for the pinnabowsh of this world the Sashawalsh the Shalbina many many others something you could count on as a partner who was not just looking at daily politics and what's in or out but we long long term partners and he is also highly decorated and I hope Joe will forgive me for saying is he is a commander like a Chigewara who was commander Chigewara he's a commander officer in Chevalier the Lord of the Isare the latter from France he's an OBE in Great Britain he is a Knight of the Royal Order of the Polar Star in Sweden and the Knight of the National Order of Quebec in Canada he has served both as the Gishawal panelist and the Heinz Awad Jr panel he is currently the International Artistic Advisor for Columbia artists and the 2019 directors hello and at the center for ballet and the arts at NYU where he has taught over decades I think he is a lecturer at colleges and universities so he's close to our field and where we are in so Joe welcome and I apologize if we always say this is all about listening and then I go on and on but I think it is important that people know at least yourself aware Frank yeah so how are you how are you in these days of corona well actually I'm fully vaccinated and when you are fully vaccinated the gift is relief that you feel that you can be an active participant in society again so I'm healthy and very much engaged in a lot of creative projects and working with colleagues for their goals and objectives so I'm well thank you were you concerned or over the last year well I think the unprecedented reality creates an insecurity I mean we've never done this before and so and given what you eloquently articulated about my professional career at bam um a lot of my time was spent on an airplane in theaters around the world in hotels taxis so what am I saying I haven't been in my home my apartment for the amount of time I have just experienced from March of last year when we all shut down until you know here we are today and on April 30th and the year 2021 and so I have had the rediscovery of my home in that time so again that's answering your question about the unprecedented nature of this reality was quite challenging to be honest so what did you do at home how did your structure you did well I have to reveal the authentic answer to your question is that when I went to undergraduate school I thought I was going to become an English literature professor because I liked to read and it's from reading that led to my concentration of English literature and that I had a course in reading Shakespeare and then I found myself in the college's cafeteria with my cohorts and there was a group of people across the cafeteria that were having a hilarious time together and I said to my pal who are those people and he said oh those are the theater people and so what what happened is that I learned they were being taught how to amplify animate act and direct Shakespeare and I was reading and the rest is history you know the theater just opened up to me and so so long story short Frank this has been a new re-engagement in my reading and probably have read you know a book a week fiction and most recently memoirs etc so yeah that's the answer reading what books did you read what did you learn well I just finished Andre Gregory's memoir which was completely fascinating because I did see Alice that he directed and created with a group of actors called The Manhattan Project and I didn't realize what a novelty professional career he really had in the regional theater that was I didn't know that I've always thought he was a New York centric product but that's not true he had multiple experience throughout this country in regional theater so so that was fascinating so yeah that's just an example of a memoir that I just finished but right now I'm reading David Sedaris so he has a compendium of of essays that he's published and so I'm deep into his humor hmm yeah really it is a time where we we look inside and and perhaps also take a step back from the massive often aggressive you know influence of the outside world the television the media the film the things we do and um Joe when you you have an experience few of us have actually even very few people on planet earth I would say um you know for running such a significant organization for a while um looking at the world how it is now in theater and performance what do you think about well I think uh the creative imagination is not static so therefore the great creative minds of this country and other global communities uh remains active and so the need has been met by the surf resurfacing of digital protocols as a methodology for creative energies uh and so yes I mean there's been a surf fight of riches for individuals who are making work using digital protocols now I I really to be clear believe that they are all in elementary school uh about the actual uses of the technology uh and but I want to be clear that my point of view is it's not disappearing as we reopen our culture our societies live performance is going to be balanced by this digital reality so there's a new kind of picture of both the digital and live performance in the theater dance music opera etc that's it's just not going to go away that's the point hmm and I think we're discoveries using bam we'll have next to fisher harway this city movie theaters there will be a digital arm a digital um um lag arm a programming unit well I think that that um david binder who's the artistry director of bam uh is being very clear in the moving the institution to look at what what is the answer for bam regarding digital work so um I think they're just beginning so what do I think the answer is emphatically yes I think that there will be a a digital identity for bam yet to be determined but I don't as I said I will repeat myself it's not going to disappear it's not going to stop I think that that there you know another behavior of psychologists but I think people's behavior has been altered by this pandemic and about having to modify uh their actions and their behavior so that's why um what's very positive has been the discovery of work outdoors uh indoors with reduced occupancies uh that the governor and the mayor have obligated and that will continue as it's been our mayor has announced july 1st but new york city will begin reopening uh the broadway league still believes that broadway will reopen after september of this year but yet to be determined is the ticket buying public's interest in purchasing a ticket in volume to go to a theater venue to sit with a thousand strangers um I don't know yet we don't know that's the point we don't know whether or not they're going to buy now the other fact is you know tourism is not going to jump start the city until autumn of 2022 at the earliest um and that's just simply the reality that's that's pragmatism of understanding the hospitality industry the tourist industry is going to be slower than most people want for the city yeah they're just that's that's the reality I mean you any report from the airline industries from from hotel industries you know they're completely reliant on tourism yeah and you've already addressed the fact that you know but our european and global communities they're not the same as this country I mean um you know I have colleagues in in South America and in Asia that they really have very serious issues about vaccinations about just getting the amount of dosage that they need for their populations so we can't have a false sense of where we are in the global community we'd make it we hear in New York City have done very very well in in getting vaccinated but that's not the way the world is working at the moment and again this is all in the context of tourism coming to New York City and being a ticket buyer for our art and cultural or entertainment outlets it's still a big question mark Frank yeah yeah it's true I think 80 percent of tickets on Broadway as far as I know is tourists or people from Connecticut New Jersey who come who travel in will they do the same I think 50 percent of New Yorkers I have the first shot at least many are now not doing the second one in but you know how what if someone from brazil comes in and from southern america and from european countries india where will the borders be open will they be closed will they be because their world will not be as fast as america is the moment it is the quite remarkably actually you know it's a leader in the vaccination and what what would it all mean but I think you are right I think sports industry also at the moment is experiencing a younger generation a drop out for one or two years young kids are not watching not seeing this and people are not watching it at home and as much as they used to and the Oscars dropped 50 percent in the so what about theater it's a good question and also what is theater doing for everyone so the emotional connection is is is a rapture yeah yeah totally I want to extrapolate a little bit more because there's premise about changes in behavior and the academy awards on television that netted only 10 million viewers where it was double to triple that amount is an important fact for us to learn from that people are changing their relationships to various opportunities that were part of the american identity you know the you know we all have lived with the great beauty of the you know the golden age of hollywood and what that mythology is about and the academy awards you know was one of those those great award shows you know that put a lens on you know the film industry but the film industry is profoundly changed I mean streaming you every week you can read in the new york times about the advancements that the streaming outlets the corporations that have streaming how they're just galloping away they're making product I mean and that's where the employment is and and that's where they're the producing entities are making deals for exhibiting their work not in theatrical venues but in a streaming service so it's you know you can't escape the capitalist system in terms of where the buck is going to go in terms of product so are you concerned about the fiber the structure of new york theater performance institutions well the answer is yes I mean because again it's that insecure when you before the pandemic there was a certain certainty about the mechanism the ecology of new york city art and culture so that you understood that ban had a legacy of ticket buyers for theater and a ticket buyer for dance a ticket buyer for opera well what happened to those people you know what what does all this mean in terms of as you as a performing art center you curate these works we frankly we really don't know if that system is going to hold there's certainly going to be they haven't disappeared from you know the fibrous system but whether or not they're ready to make a ticket purchase bands opera houses opened in 1918 and you know it seats 2000 people and you know that's a large number of ticket buyers you know you're not doing like a one night show I was able to curate at least four performances of a production and that's that's volume that's quantity and and you really don't know what's going to happen and I think this is one of the legacies but also a little bit overlooked that what you did was international program and yes experimental in a way you fill 2000 seats but it was also I think a tremendous effort behind which we perhaps also not fully worth but this wasn't the good times when you know everybody was out and people were there so that is a big question what will happen and is it's also the right thing at the moment who knows you know is that the the important thing how do we get the seats for or to say what has to change right what do you think well I get you know I think that that it's organizations like BAM have to convince a ticket buyer that there's safety and coming into their theaters okay and you know that is going to be part of the job is is that you know whether it's air filtration whether it's you know social distancing whatever the choice is going to be for the producing or presenting organization they have to demonstrate to the prospective ticket buyer that it's safe now they may end up having to quantify the that that the ticket buyer is vaccinated I mean you know I have my my little white card you know and do I need to show that when I purchase a ticket or when I'm going to enter the arena of a venue unknown you you're the people who are going to be who are currently watching this discussion between us and the people after this we will know so much more by the autumn of this year at this the litmus test right now is we don't know the answer I have all the questions that need to be asked but I'm devoid of providing answers I mean concrete answer I'm a pragmatist you know I I do the research and make the artistic judgment that this particular work of art belongs within one of our theaters and I can authentically communicate to our audiences of that time why I'm curating why I'm bringing this production to New York City and because what we should be addressing is the fact that BAM is a global and a local arts and cultural center for the city of New York it's a great legacy that was established by Harvey Lichtenstein and yes in 1983 when I was hired to work with him to create the next wave festival and that the festival again is a three-month multi-disciplinary art initiative that was always global from the moment it was created now we use a different word we would say international so there were international artists in 1983 in the 80s and then we changed our vocabulary to be more responsive to a global identity but that was BAM's place at the cultural landscape of New York City and that finding the most innovative progressive artists in the performing arts to give them a platform and at that time and during my tenure I could I would say you know what I live in a community of fundamentally curious people New Yorkers I believe are genuinely curious so whether or not my point being that curiosity has been neutered by the pandemic I don't know I do all I know is I know we're different from having survived those of us lucky enough not to be infected by the virus that we've survived but what are we going to do about our participation in our society regarding art and culture that requires us to go into a venue to be seated in order to be open to receive the art making of the producing and presenting organizations of our great city don't know Frank don't really know the answer to that and that's actually that is concerning that someone like you doesn't know and with all the questions and the right questions you have it's an additionally the layer what also our guests talked about where there was a Rachel Cooper with this haze or a garai you know what's going to happen to that global view what is going to happen well no no the issue is that someone like myself a professional I can't go to Madrid I can't go to Rome or Barcelona I can't get to Hong Kong or I can't go to Brazil so that the professional process of being present in a live performance in a global community that has been corrupted you know that as a you don't artistically program by the means we are communicating right now you have to be in the theater you know video video you know youtube those are research tools that tells you whether or not you should get onto that plane and go to that theater and sit there because there is a reality of difference between the screen and being in performance and and in particular when you're servicing the architecture which is was my job three theaters dedicated to the performing arts space impacts art and so you can see the work by these great artists but it's only until you're in the engagement of live performance that you your mind works to be able to imagine that particular work in one of your venues so something that's programmed in the harvey theater 900 seats versus something that I would program in the opera house that's 2000 seats and obviously with the fishman space which is 250 seats so there's been this breakdown in a professional process of doing your work as a curator in the performing arts and then again the backdrop of this is as a performing arts presenter not as a producing artist you know that not as a producing organization which is working with a playwright with a director a group of actors and producing a work specifically for a venue two different vocabularies as a talking about curating a fully produced work of art that you want to in a different community that you want to bring to New York City so that's the big challenge because that and this is what needs to be examined is that how the women and men who are artistry directors of presenting organizations and their inability to have mobility of a professional process to go see work and yeah that this is a big issue yeah it was probably spent half the year on the road I don't know the numbers but that's my guess that where you are not sleeping in your a new york apartment when you went out the other question also and yeah what is j-wagman doing others you know what how do you how do you look at the work what will you create also they we work a lot with pen the writers organization they have the great pen world voices festival going on I think it's kind of a sibling also bam's great the next wave the idea is to bring writers in salmon rush he and pollister and created it it's the very first bush administration they felt this was such a tunnel vision 95 percent of all books sold in the u.s came from us writers or u.k writers of the five percent half of it is french or german because they really engage support their culture so you had one or two books from another place and a lot of the problems we have in this country is because we do not see the world from a different place the world that looks at the asia society does or others you know the european institution that you try to contribute to say the world is a big place there are lots of things how we had to look at it also what happens when this is missing when you can travel companies will not be able to come in what does it what does it mean and and what will will be the consequences do you think that future work also of american artists will be radically changed by this or do you think after three or five years it will go back well i think that there's a big change in the producing theaters here in the united states across the board it's a generational change of artistic directors retiring resigning their positions so you have new energies new ideas i believe the emphasis is on american playwriting american artists american choreographers composers etc and i think i'm concerned that it's less global in their their viewpoints and and that is a real issue i think for american society i have to extrapolate when i say american society versus new york city because new york city is is a different equation and i don't say this proudly is that many of the artistic works that i programmed at band only came to new york they didn't travel across this nation to performing art centers or producing the venues etc so you know the the work of evo van hove thomas ostermeyer etc etc etc even the great peanut box has only been to several other locations los angeles being one in arizona being another and that only happened once frank you know and so you have multiple generations of americans who really have never seen a live performance of a peanut box we're just an example of you know a great german artist who in her lifetime created a new art form called dance theater or in german dance theater uh and that adjustment is a predicament for this country because a whole group of people have never seen the work of you know asian european south american artists yorkers have but not the rest of this country and so that that is a particular concern given the background of what i've already said about the the work came to new york doesn't travel to other regions of this country uh the men and women who have grown up in this society artists who have been now given the opportunity to run institutions producing theater producing dance producing opera uh and don't really have the experience of working with these international artists who are creating their new work which falls under the innovative progressive categories and that's that's maturing form artistic form and so there's an imbalance is basically what i'm saying between you know the country goes like this new york city is you know at the apex and you know pocatella idaho is at the end you know that's so that's not a pretty picture but it's the truth it's the truth and i mean we do think that in a way of you know since the french revolution that great democratic gesture um the access to art the access to education the access to health the access to democracy is a human right we think of it in a way you're globally and yet it is so complicated in a country that has a quiet which is a rich country so it's not just about money so the question is what will happen and i mean some people say the food standard rate over the last 10 20 years went incredibly up in america it's that is stunning what this country has done and i think also in houston seattle portland so many of course also those angels i mean there is so much is happening but perhaps it's not fast enough for a lot of us but this pandemic is is certainly questioning all of it again of what is important what is significance should we support global artists of american artists don't have work all of it um what do you from your colleagues i know you work so so much and you're so deeply engaged and you got these decade old connections what do you see in the world globally what do you pick up what do you think this is interesting or this is a model or this is something we have to be concerned about and what is what is coming give us a little bit an idea well i i um the interactions that i've had most recently have demonstrated that artists who run institutions in the european union for just for this moment they too are generating a newer relationship with their societies and what am i saying that it's a kind of rediscovering of what we know as community you know that we live uh within a neighborhood and a group of people that more and more are they're digging into their local individual communities plural to find the avenues of access and to figure out how to do what they have been built their legacy on while uh giving access to a new generation and to communities that never had access to the resources of institutions and so that's happening in paris and it's happening you know in barcelona and the same thing is true in in brazil i mean those are the communities that i've been in conversation with and it's quite remarkable actually because um and i don't believe it has anything to do with us i think it has to do with these are women and men of a younger generation who realize that an error had been made in not recognizing who these individuals are and that they have been denied opportunities and that means resources by cultural institutions and so they're writing this issue and that's new for all of them very interesting you know that it's it's not us it's them recognizing that they have a responsibility and obligation to be more diverse and equitable in their work it's it's this this is and this is a powerful word it's profound change it's not the hierarchy of the paris opera ballet and or opera you know alexander neith who's the new artistic director who i work with when he was in toronto um he has a completely new agenda for recognizing the that it's not just a citadel of elitist culture that is that if if they maintain that position um they're no different than the Louvre they're a museum and he knows it will cease operating if it doesn't find new tentacles new identities for what opera and ballet can be for parisians so it's just it's a fact i see it all the time frank i think you know there's real incidents of of you know getting out of the ivory tower and getting in on or getting onto the streets with the people and trying to figure out how do you make art how do you have that journey qualitatively still delivering something that's transformative or transcendent with a very i i think it's quite a remarkable time actually what does he what does he do what what steps does he take to make it different than the opera before well i think it's it's going to be interesting to see when he's given the opportunity to lay out his first artistic season um what new work will be he's exceptionally resourceful in knowing art makers in the world of opera and he will invest in this you know new generation of composers who want to compose for the opera and to bring in women and men to amplify animate these works of art i mean that and um and again it's his work with the ballet side of his art and his institution is cultural diversity of you know women and men of color who are ballet dancers to change the equation that's he's a man of the 21st century you know he he's recognizing this is a moment where he it's not about destroying it's about how to evolve an arts institution that's more responsive and inclusive um we also have Immanuel de Marcin Motat from the Teatro de la Ville with us who's also i think quite stunning plans in a way something seems to be happening do you think because the state the cities in a way pay so much more for these institutions they are the responsibility is it bitter is that they feel you have to react you have to do these things the funding in the u.s often you are now next to being on the airplanes maybe in how the next half year was about funding you you work on but and here um it comes from private funders so do you which is you know a great people actually i think we support the art but this structural difference do you think this is of significance i think it's a tremendous difference between um those countries that have governments that some give money to uh and have done it historically there's like this is like a not a new thing that's happening and it it does give someone like Immanuel de Marcin Motat the opportunity to do a different kind of planning that um we don't have okay but Immanuel he he's quite a fascinating artist and that he has a social conscience and he's also committed to education in a big way not like it's not tangential it's it's it's primary with him uh and he has a range of programs that the Chiaz de la Ville in Paris have made possible within the educational structure that's very complicated and obviously very very different from our education system. Let's say in a future world um Immanuel would be higher could you know what he does at BAM or do you think um that would not work? Well you know that and what doesn't work is you can't take someone like Immanuel and bring him to BAM to be the artistic director because he has no foundation no experience in fundraising philanthropy is not part of his professional identity. He doesn't have to worry about it. Yeah it's not there's there's there's no language you know he there's no skill he he he doesn't know you know he's a smart man I mean and you know he's an experienced theater director and an artistic director of both Chiaz de la Ville and the Festival d'etat and you know he knows art but philanthropy fundraising of the American system is doesn't exist n' exist pas at all in his language and um and that it it's just been a different route for American artists and administrators and um you know there's so much one thing I probably should have started this conversation with and it's like you know what Frank do you know how I self-define I self-define as a creative professional problem solver because there's there's not a ready answer it's not a formula and you got to figure it out and in order to create and or make an aesthetic judgment how to craft and create an artistic season what are the fundamentals and principles operating to create a festival and not believing or using the european model the superimposed on a performing arts institution in brooklyn new york impossible it doesn't work you have to figure it out and that's what kept me at band for so long because every year was tabula rasa you know there's we have no resident companies it only existed on my individual choice or the collective choice of an artistic season that allowed band to continue and so that that's the american way and that and the european way is radically different completely so yeah as Frank said we have to build the house with the stones we have and that's what you did and so fantastically I remember that Bill Clinton when he left office they asked outgoing president for some recommendation he did say the time I spent on the phone in little room fundraising I could not use that time to do my work you know and he said this shouldn't be there should be a different way and and aesthetically you know results of artistic of course are related to the production structures of it so it's we will see if there will also be perhaps a change in and how how it is produced a personal also for personal a question for you I know you also you work with olympia du kakis you worked in montclair and the whole theater people still talk about that theater people have little sometimes a little bit of tears even in their eyes and say how great um that was she once said in a discussion we had also at the studio she said I'm no longer sometimes I think I'm no longer in theater for the reasons I went into it she said something has changed she had to look she couldn't keep the company anymore was too much she also was of course so successful she got the oscar but still she said you know she believes it on some like something has changed do you feel how do you feel and how did you get started as an arts administrator oh that's a that would take another session really answer uh truthfully uh but um the answer in a distilled way is that uh hard work being consistent showing up and relationships if if if I were ever to have a tombstone it would just read relationships because that's the fundamental takeaway of my having opportunities to do the work that I did and so um I had been given opportunities for great women and men in the theater in opera in dance and artists who I developed a relationship with and was give them a service it's not my job was to service the broken academy music for the last 35 years of my life and that's and it's all about service it's it's not at the cult of personality it is about objectively did I serve bam well by this particular individual and providing a home for the consistent presentation of great theater Robert Wilson working with a great german organization the berliner ensemble I mean making it possible for uh peter brook harvey had a the previous relationship and so when harvey retired I maintained the relationship with peter brook because the harvey theater models itself under peter's theater in paris called le bouff de nord and not every work that peter crafted created directed was appropriate for the harvey theater but peter knew that he had a place where he could do his work I mean so that all comes together in terms of uh relationships and and you name the art forum and I could tell you who the individuals are uh that I was given the privilege to work with to make their artistic work happen and and then again you know that the service at the time was this when there was not classical theater being produced here in New York City made it possible for sam mendes to be engaged as the artistic director of the bridge project which was never ever thought to be you know a standing ongoing endeavor it was we produced five classical plays over a three-year period and it was half american and half uh british actors and the same thing with stage management designers etc and it really was a bridge project between the uk and the usa the city of london the city of new york and then we toured the world doing this work but that was a service and and I would that's why I want to be really clear that was the job bam is one of the great new york city treasures in the world of the performing arts it has great value it has a legacy it's america's oldest continually operating performing arts center you know started in 1861 I mean when brooklyn was a separate city I mean so that history you have to honor and and um and I know it will perpetuate I mean it will continue to grow and change and mutate appropriately you know a little cultural history frank no no and there is a there is a line as with the idea of community where that was done in the whole theater Montclair the community locally in brooklyn and the world community you were part of in your work and actually now you say we are rediscovering the idea of community so um there that is something significant you know to hear and to understand and to also really implement and and think about and redefine and um so but but how did you get into arts administration how did you start out very very early on what how how did that happen well you know you in order to pay the bills I became a stage manager and then from being a stage manager you are you studying English literature and then I discovered the undergraduate discovered theater I started to take theater courses then I went to catholic university of america to get my mfa in directing and then my first job outside of graduate school was at the guthrey theater in minneapolis for a season and migrated to new york city I started a city center of music and drama at that time and then I went to the walnuts tree theater in philadelphia and then I was hired to work at an organization which is service organization that worked with young and emerging regional theaters was called the foundation for the extension and development of the american professional theater a great man named frederick vogel hired me to be the theater program director to work with him and so I traveled all over the united states it was a mentoring program using the women and the men uh who are the progenitors of the regional theater movement to help the young and emerging artistic directors develop an administrative structure and then um I was asked to I finished that and I went to miami robert herman hired me as a general manager of the new world festival of the arts I did that for eight months produced 22 world premieres in three weeks came back to new york harvey lichtenstein says I have an idea about creating for new york city the first contemporary performing arts festival would you join me to produce it and like the rest is history that's in a nutshell what how it is there's no mystery and I can you know recant all of that for you I mean and it's opportunities you know that that individuals saw something within me and I think ultimately it was a work ethic it's me it's all about the work it's about doing the job that's not a mystery to me I'm a blue-collar Italian-american family as my background and and you know my father owned a grocery store he was his his skill or his trade was as a butcher you know we worked I worked in my father's grocery store starting at age 10 so I like work yeah it's sure that's it the great german comedian at the time of breast calvalentine I've really talked a lot he said when he was asking about art and he was kind of a folk comedian he was an odd figure but right like the most he said art is beautiful but it's a lot of work and um and we we for we now we realize it even more with your experience your vast experience is the next mayor or maybe the angel young or whoever would say I want to have Joe Malillo on my side and Tim want him to say how we move forward in the performing arts let's put the side galleries or films or New York's theater but what would you say what would what would be your recommendations well I think that there's you know in the yeah listen for me that's a direct answer because I can walk from the corner of Broadway and East Ninth Street all the way to the battery and there's one empty retail store after another and I would say to the new mayor and the new commissioner of cultural affairs get artists into the that real estate animate that real estate so people can see artists working enjoying making work no matter what it is visual artists performing arts get children into the doing work inside you want to see it you want the arts and culture to be visible and they're just sitting those empty stores are just sitting there animate them give them a life that's what New York City is is about life animation passion ideas beauty all of those buzzwords signify New York City trusts an artist that's what you the mayor and the commissioner of cultural affairs needs to understand trust artists they will lead you into new and wonderful mystical transcended ideas and experiences that's the answer for me yeah well that's quite a quite a radical answer also for you coming from there but to say you know that's a great answer instead of saying we need to give us five more millions to say let's use in neighborhoods and stores give artists work any hamburger at the Kauffman Center I think and you know they are doing several others also do it but it's not yet supported in a way it could be and perhaps it would be the very best money ever invested to you know have local producers store producers we are thinking about little park project too and so we'll have to see where this will go if you and we often ask that at the talk if you had to talk to young Joe who's just you know is a stage manager and then comes to the new world stages you know and what would you say to him now if he would come to New York at the moment what would you say I wish I had known that at the time also but what do this or that what what what would you say go to every artistic experience you can afford to attend because that's how you know about artists artistic form that's how you know what you like and don't like what you are curious about what you don't understand is from actually being an audience member no matter what and audiences for me are not only the performing arts it's also going to a museum going to the zoo going to the botanic garden it you're feeding your own creative imagination and and and in so doing you're learning about yourself self knowledge and and if it's meant to be you'll find the way to make a contribution through art and culture as a professional that's what I would say that's that's good and serious it's wise and I like also what you say they go to galleries concerts read books as you know that it's a diverse thing even if you're the performing arts and I think often it became silos but they are it is important I agree yeah yeah no this is really really great and and it's good to hear you meet you you also know you knew martin seagull after whom our our center is it was so there is a great great history in connection yet and we really respect your work so much what you have carried on your shoulder and the ox caron that looks also very beautiful and glamorous from the outside and perfect and is the closest to a hollywood stage we have in new york for the experimental art but it was it is after all these are run by people like by David now but before you before that hardware it's personal efforts it's people who have a vision people who have the energy and also yeah how would one say the vision but also the force and to to make that happen is exceptional run it's what you did your contribution really to the city and what it means to do performing arts has been defined by your work and and also globally and often new york artists and venues they are not not really known people sometimes don't even know about linkedin center you know they haven't heard that in your but everybody knows about them and people have been there and so little gets invited back so few artists often american artists get invited but so few can come back and bam is a place which you guys may happen in brooklyn at a time when nobody really went there but nobody showed the work you did it is spectacular it's actually miraculous um that it happened that it starts you know uh in in in manhattan though one would expect it you know and how come it's not in queens or they know this some people got together had an idea there was a building someone hired harry from the i think the author right uh new city operate and they did something you know where this john cage and mercy was counting him or 20 people would come and he said i don't care this was yeah they need a place and i see a future he anticipated the future as great great artist so joe really um it is um a type work of a titan you did there at that place it's also a big history that now to carry on especially then uh in the time of corona i can only imagine how complicated that must be for some of my david who takes that on and um but you know there's a lot of goodwill and we all want to see them live succeed we all want to go there and what i miss is going to bam being outside on the steps saying hi to people i haven't seen the whisper before the show opens let me say how is it going to be and the curtain is down and it comes up and afterwards you go out and now we realize that's life and uh you know and cedar provides that for us go to stein's and half of what theater what you see on stage is not even important but the anticipation the meeting of the french the ritual to think again about life and death and love and all of that and i think that is one of the venues that really did that and we are really grateful and for such a long time that you did that it is absolutely remarkable and um and perhaps also not not fully understood you know how great that contribution were and it's actually by a by a by a person and not the institution of the walls that's by by by the leadership so thank you we are close to the end of our talk maybe be sure to after a time have another talk maybe in half a year we'll see you know where things go maybe in the fall you know you said in the fall we will know so let's see um what we'll have maybe with some colleagues next week we we will continue next week we're going to have uh jimmy on bremer uh with us that's why i asked you also about you know the next jimmy who is a great supporter of the art oh yeah in city council and he's now running for uh borough means borough president someone said what does art mean to you as a person and what do you want from the arts you know what will be interesting i think to hear oh i agree like him i agree and yeah we're going to have chris meyer an actor who has also put a little side of his work he does workshop for anti-capitalism but also he was in brandon jacob jenkins doctor room and he was you know in spite leafy arms but he feels it's the time that actors get in game so we're going to hear from him and then then we have a curio cerebranikov from russia a significant artist who was under house arrest for years who couldn't do his work by by the government he's one of the great directors coming out of europe and we are now able to connect to him and he will tell us a bit what does it mean now to to be a working artist in russia in the time of corona in the time of interventions very serious interventions you know from the state and from the government and censorship uh real life self-threatened and what does that mean and so really really great so joe thank you for waiting thank you very much after noon with us and it was really enlightening it's so great to hear from you to see that you're well it's good to know that you're vaccinated and we need your council and leadership and we'll be see we'll be curious to see what you what you come up with and uh you will be involved so thank you again thanks to howl round for hosting us um and to um our listeners for taking time out of that busy life so much more is out there we started in march i think even globally we were the only one actually for a while we were the only global theater institution producing new contacts every day we did it five days a week as was unique um that's it joe any last words um for that comes to your mind something to highlight my party listen frank um i think i first want to say i have great gratitude for being invited and i want to wish you continuing success with this endeavor and it has a very important place in american cultural history what you and your colleagues are doing so please know that i have the greatest respect for your commitment to do this thank you again thank you joe that okay take care means a lot i know you mean that though that's fine that's really mean oh thank you have a good good recap and thank you you too all right bye bye