 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode, which I think is 133, Bob, but I might be wrong. No, I think it's 123. Do you reckon it might be? No, no, it must be 130. I don't know. I don't either. I've always relied on you, Jackie, because you say, welcome to wonderful Bob Cook, and then you keep the count. Well, I'm going to commit to this being episode 133. I'm going to go with that. I like that. And what we're going to be talking about in this episode of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors is what are the most successful elements in the therapy process or what we believe are the most successful elements in the therapy process? Well, I'll start off. You start off. Love. I like that. And compassion. I like that as well. We could go on and on, but without an open heart, without compassion and kindness for ourselves and for the person sitting opposite us, not much will happen. No. And I like the way you said for ourselves as well, because I think that's really important. Well, I agree with you. Without that for ourselves, as well as for the person sitting opposite us, not much therapy will happen. No. I really believe that. I really believe that. For me, I think it is so important as therapy that we do, do work on ourselves. Oh, all the great therapists have undertaken a lot of the therapeutic work on themselves. I love the fact, Bob, and I really admire you because you go on retreats quite regular. Yeah, I've just been on one. You spend time on yourself, and that's something I've always found quite difficult, personally, to carve out time just for me. Well, this is a retreat. Well, my retreats you're talking about, the one in November I've just been on, was 13 years I've been going on twice a year with most of the same people. It's a personal development week, really. It's aimed at reflections and thoughts and internal meanderings. I love that. I love to just take the time to have those meanderings and personal development, and no offence meant at all with this, Bob. But for somebody of your age, 73, is it now? Yeah, 73. To still be taking time for personal development and meanderings. And 13 years have you been doing this for twice a year? Twice a year, yeah. Yeah, so that's true commitment to yourself, that is. Yeah, and I think in the therapeutic process I've learned that I wouldn't be, first of all, I wouldn't be the therapist I am today without my own therapy, and with these this sort of meanderings, if you like. Yeah. And I think that's the least I can give to the person opposite me. Because I think that was one of my thoughts about successful elements, is personal development. I know we're all continuous professional development and those sorts of things, and it's not just doing the training once and that's it for the next 20 or 30 years. You know, I think it's a really hard one for people coming into this profession. And maybe if I go back to feel, no, it's not true of me because I was so though, I was so much of my own history to explore therapy was a lifeline for me. So I went into therapy every week for the duration of the four, five, six, seven years. So I remortgaged my house to be able to do these things. Now, I'm not saying everybody goes to that length, but you know, I've been running these trainings at the Institute for the last 37 years. And I've never, and I know when an economic downturn at the moment and biases around cost and everything else, but the trainees and students that come on the course, who on our course, you have to do 160 hours. It's not therapy. That's 40 hours a year. I don't know who put that figure on it, but anyway. It was four, four, so 160, I suppose. And there's always this stipulation of evidence and they've done this, these therapy. And I know it's costly, but I do know that the best psychotherapists are the therapists that have done their own work. There is no doubt about that. And it's ongoing as well because life happens. So I suppose it is probably a very important element for successful therapy. And with that, it's really a gift to your clients. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And modelling again. I know we spoke in the last podcast about, you know, modelling positivity and that sort of stuff, but prioritising ourselves and taking care of ourselves is a really good thing to model to our clients. And the therapists that don't do this, by the way, and in the counselling world, us think of the BACP, which is a regulating body, they don't require you to do any. Hours at the present moment of reflecting on yourself. And I mean, a lot of courses say, look, you've got to do 20 hours or 30 hours or whatever it is. But the biggest problem, you know, not only don't you know yourself if you don't do your own therapy, but quite often you merge with your clients if you don't know yourself. Yeah. So a depressed client comes in. Yeah. A part of yourself is depressed, but you don't really really, I don't know, understand it or deny it or disavow it. So you can end up identifying with your clients and then you end up merging with your clients. Nothing much happens really. Which is a danger of that anyway. If you're not very self-aware as a therapist, is that, you know, over-identification or whatever? Yeah, absolutely. But self-care, knowing yourself, how important, isn't it? The love and the compassion and everything. Yeah, I like that. One of the other things, I think, and I know that you've touched on this previously when you're doing assessments, is to ask the support network that people have got. I think that's kind of one of the elements for success is that the client has a positive support network around them, outside of the therapy room as well. Yeah, and that's not necessarily going to talk about the therapy. No. About just making that clear. It's about having people who will be on your side. Yes. Take account of you and be able to go to the pictures with or play temp involvement with or if you feel really hopeless because of whatever you can phone them up or you're not isolated, withdrawn and stuck in some place where you only got the devils in your own head. Yeah, because I think there's some, and maybe it's just, I don't know, the world that we're living now, but there's a lot of my clients that have toxic people around them that have a massive impact on their recovery in the therapy process, and sometimes the process encourages them to maybe limit their exposure to certain people, put it that way, which again is another way of self-care. It's taking care of yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And we're in the period of festivity at the moment with Christmas. Yes, it's worth mentioning. Yeah, well I was thinking of support mechanisms. Yes. Quite often therapists take a week off. Yes, yeah. In ten days over Christmas, and clients without those support mechanisms are often alone in their own heads over this time. Yeah. So it is important, it's a vital question to ask any client she'd take on board about their support mechanisms. Because this time of year isn't always a happy festive time for everybody. There's a lot of people that are on their own, and when the therapist, which we are absolutely entitled to take a break just like everybody else does, it is something that we need to be mindful of. Oh, we need to always be mindful of it. And I said on a podcast a year ago, I think, and I don't know what it was about. Perhaps it was last Christmas, so I'm thinking the same story. But you know, when I hear stories of a therapist who put up Christmas trees in their office, they put up thousands of baubles. And I was thinking actually, if a supervisor put up a Christmas tree and XXX because they wanted to make sure that in their thinking the clients would have good Christmases. I know the intention of that, the positive intention. However, for a lot of clients the therapist see they've not had good Christmases. Absolutely, yeah. Have a therapist attempt to force that down there being actually produces the opposite effect of what the therapist intended to do. And I think therapists need to explore the reality of people's Christmases in their own past and how that forms how they are Christmas today. Absolutely, and the material side of things, going right back to flipping September, it's in, it's everywhere, it's in your faces. You go around, you know, your local supermarket in the middle of September and they're playing Christmas carols and the selection boxes are out on the streets. They're out on the shelves. It goes on for a long time. Yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't mean, you know, not celebrating. But I think it's important to honor the clients in front of you in terms of their own histories. Yeah. And not attempt somehow, foist your own maybe as positive Christmases. It wasn't in my case onto the class in front of you. Yeah. Would you have the conversation with clients on the run up to Christmas? Always. Okay. 100%. Yeah. I'd always have a conversation about what was your past Christmas is like. And how did you cope and was it a good time for you? How do you want me to be on Christmas, especially if you're running a cycle? It's a really good one, Bob. How do you want me to be on the Christmas? To ask them, yeah. Yeah. To get their reality, not to force society's reality on them. Yeah. One other thing about when you were talking about, you know, Helm's to make up a successful psychotherapy process in a way. I think celebration, and what I mean by that, when people make changes, which are positive, and they integrate those changes, I think it's really important to take time out to celebrate with them and to encourage them to celebrate themselves, their achievements. Yeah. I don't think we do that enough as grown-ups. I think once we leave school, you know what I mean? And we've stopped having congratulation assemblies and all those sort of things. I don't think we congratulate ourselves enough at all. No. Quite often people are so focused on going up the mountain, they stop. Or the next mountain, when they're all, you know, they come halfway down one, they're already focusing on going up the next one. Yeah. So I always encourage clients to celebrate even the smallest changes and take ownership of what they've achieved. Yeah. I like that. So I think that's successful in the journey of a psychotherapy treatment. Yes. If you're getting them to take ownership of the positive options that they've chosen instead of keeping with that blueprint of what often is a destructive script. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the things that make up successful elements in the therapy process is having a plan. You know, sometimes people go to therapy and I don't feel like there is a plan. I've got on my initial form that clients fill out, you know, there's why are you coming to therapy and what are you hoping to get from therapy? And I'll often go back and refer back to that statement that, you know, this is what you were looking to get from therapy. Whereabouts are we now in that, you know, vision that you had? I really agree. A plan. Yeah. A chart where you're at. Yes. Yeah. Have feedback from the clients as well. You know, whereabouts do you feel you are? You know. Yeah. And instead of just going on forever without some reviewed contracts. Yeah. Yeah. Because things change. What they originally come with isn't necessarily what they want. We know that. But it's a checking process, I think. Definitely. Other elements, mistakes. Yeah. I think that it's very, very important at the right time in the psychotherapy sequence. So I'm not talking about, you know, us foisting things. Into the time process of the psychotherapy treatment. But I think it's important for the therapist to fall off the perch for the client. Yes. In other words, for successful psychotherapy treatment, there has to be a very strong relation with the beginning. The therapist needs to be all potent and the negative. So I'm not talking about, you know, us foisting things into the time process of interject. They need to be a figure where the person, the client can respect and have as a mentor and stand up to the parents in the heads. And they also need to make mistakes. And then you did fall off the perch. So that the client can take an equal power dynamic in that relationship. Yeah. With the client. Otherwise, they could go, they could leave therapy and be a copycat of Bob Cook for the rest of the lives, which might be slightly better, but it's still not them taking ownership of themselves. So the therapist does have to fall off the perch. And also make mistakes, which is what everybody does in any human relationships. Yeah. It's one of the worst tyrannies of psychotherapy. It's the so-called, in inverted commas, perfect psychotherapist. It's a difficult one. Because it's smiling because I was thinking, what's difficult about that? Well, you know, it's easy to make mistakes. I do it quite often, Bob. But what I'm thinking is, you know, dependent on the type of mistakes that's made and the rupture that that could potentially cause in the relationship, it's a really good way of modelling coming back from something like that. So I'm talking about. Yeah. But exactly like you said at the beginning of this, the timing needs to be... Oh, that's why I said it. In order to be able to come back from that. That's why. Yeah. We're talking about later on in psychotherapy. Absolutely. Yeah. It has to be a very strong working relationship between therapists and clients. Yeah. They've had to go through the sequences I've talked about. And there has to be like Ian and Yang. There has to be some equalising up eventually. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, we don't have an equality of human discourse. Yeah. And I like that. I like that even in an equaling type of thing that I'm okay, you're okay. There's no one-upmanship and all that sort of stuff. That's not because most of your clients will have had an experience, a power dynamic in their histories. When the parent or significant other came from where I'm okay, you're not okay position. I was discussing this with somebody this week. And it's really something personally that's been going on for me. That power dynamic with my oncologist. Wow. Replaying stuff from my past and parental dynamic. And it's really interesting that I picked up on the fact that it's kind of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. And often authority figures without even intending that process for whatever reasons. Oh, I think he intends it, Bob. I think he intends it. Yeah. I'm not getting caught up in your- No, let's not. Oh, your history. But I was thinking of authority figures who step in that position may intend it. Yeah. And also because of their own script might be unaware of the impact of that position on the other. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But in a psychotherapy treatment which needs to be successful, which I believe where the client needs to be encouraged to take ownership of their own importance and their own destiny, and needs to be, I believe, some equality in discourse between the therapist and the client and not a one down position which is often their experience of their history. Yeah. And I think I don't think I'm making assumptions here when I say that often clients come into their therapy process being one down, they're looking up to you as soon as they walk in through the door that you've got all the answers and everything. Yeah. Usually. When you get to the festive spirit, if you like, I call that a particular phenomena which is a Father Christmas phenomena. They come in expecting the therapist to be Father Christmas and pull a magic trick out of the- used to frighten the life out of me that when I first started being the therapist that I was expected to have all the answers and I knew I didn't have them. Yeah. Yeah. And I understand it would frighten you and it takes some experience to be able to understand that as an important part of psychotherapy process and to be work through. And that's what I meant is the therapist either hopefully consciously needs to understand that the client needs to have the therapist fall off the perch. Yeah. Yeah. Psychologically and the therapist needs to allow that to happen and not take it personally. And the therapist is ego driven. I was just going to say that's when our ego needs to get out of the way. Finally narcissistic. May not allow that to happen and that would be in my view a professional tragedy. Yeah. It's a humbling, the whole process of the cycle of that Father Christmas thing to building a relationship to falling off the perch, to fixing the rupture or whatever. That's like a wonderful cycle to be a part of with somebody. It's wonderful. And for a narcissistic therapist could be very painful. So that's why narcissistic therapists I think, well if you've done your own therapy maybe you can move away from that narcissistic position. Yeah. Because otherwise there's no room for the clients in the whole therapeutic treatment. So I think it's another reason for insisting on trainee therapists having their own therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Because they have to fall off the perch. I believe in that equal in a young process we're talking about. Yeah. A lot of therapy goes wrong. I don't like writing long. But well I'll say, are you saying wrong for the sake of language? You can say it Bob. We all know each other. Yeah. Goes wrong when you get the narcissistic therapist who gets so wounded when I think it's a psychological necessity of the client if the treatment's successful to see the therapist in a human life fall. But there's a wounding for the therapist to narcissistic level and they can't bear it. So they then do something or act out in a way where all the good therapy work has been destroyed. And that is a sad tragedy on a personal and a professional level for both the therapist and the client. Yeah. I can imagine. Because it usually means that the client then starts to replay their own script of a power dynamic which has been so unhealthy for them. Yeah. For me personally I find it helpful and empowering and encouraging and all that to have somebody that's just a few steps ahead of me in any new field that I'm learning. Yes at the beginning in the middle. Yes. But maybe not so useful when you're working towards taking charge of your own destiny. Separating yourself out from your history. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Different processes, isn't it? But you can only do it if those first parts of sequences of the psychotherapy have happened. I agree with you. Yeah. And you can only do it if the therapist can cope with that actually. Yeah. So I'm quite happy to fall off the pedestal. You are. You are. You are. You are. Because only you've got a sense of humility and humbleness and you also understand the process. In supervision when I'm supervising therapists I'm often talking about this very process we're talking about now. Love. I think it makes you more approachable and more like you touched on it, that human side of the therapist. Yeah. So those elements make up an effective therapy. And I started off with being in love, kindness and compassion. Yeah. They have to be there I think. Yes. Yeah. For a successful therapy relationship. Yeah. For ourselves and the client. I loved it when you said that. Yeah. It's for both. We have to allow the therapist to love us, which is usually the hardest thing. Yeah. For the third. We have to allow ourselves, right. So we have to allow our, how can I explain this? We have to allow the clients to love us. Yes. Yeah. That often is so hard for therapists for lots of reasons to do maybe their own scripts and their own histories, but also the therapist unfortunately in my opinion can interpret that relational need of expression of love. They can interpret as over dependable, over dependents. I've done that in the past Bob, I must admit. Yeah. Yeah. But they're using me as a crutch or that there's some sort of, like you said, dependency on me. Yeah. And then what happens is that the psychopath which often goes into defending a defensive moment themselves, then the client closes down and repeats history. Hmm. There's a relational need for human beings to express love, I believe. Yeah. Yeah, definitely to love them, to express it and to receive it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And often this is the crux of an effective psychotherapy treatment actually. That relationship with therapists and the clients is at the heart of cure, I think. Yeah. All clients need a witness on the road, on their road. All clients need somebody on their road to their personal achievements. I like that. And that's what we are, aren't we, a witness, a witness to the change in the journey. Yeah. That's another really important element, isn't it? Yeah. I do like that, that touched me that, that we, you know, it's an honour to be a witness to, on the journey, yeah. Yeah. And hopefully we make an impact on the way as well. What a lovely place to end, Bob, on this penultimate one of the year. I don't know what we're going to do next session. Well, first of all, you have a great Christmas. You too. Absolutely. And to the listeners, if you celebrate Christmas, then hope it's a good one. Yeah. I'm thinking the title that we've got written down here is Life After Therapy. That might be quite a good one for ending the year. Yeah, yeah. That would be a very good one for the end of the year. And we can have the excitement like a Christmas present of the second one. But I like that title. Yeah. Because, Pines, we need to, I'm going to explain this, we need to give ourselves a vision of okayness after therapy. Yeah, because ultimately it does need to come to an end at some point. I know, I know for you, Bob, you've been going for a long, long, long time. It's the three I'm talking about. The last one is in March. It would be 14 years then. So I have to forward and it's going to end in March. Wow, is it? Yeah, it has to have an ending. I mean, the lead is 77. Oh, right. The group is 87. Most people are in the 70s. Oh, I love that, Bob. It's like a film about that. That's amazing. Like the Thursday murder club. I've ever read those books by Richard Osmond, which is actually based in a, are they called elderly homes anymore, whatever they're called. And they create a club and they're all in their 70s, 80s and 90s. And they're solving murders and things like that. But anyway, so the youngest, I think, the youngest people were sort of 57 or 58. But majority of them were in like 60s, 70s and some of the 87. And, yeah, so it'll be a, it'll be an emotional ending. But and an ending that isn't, you know how to explain. It's like the circle, the completion of a journey for me. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure how I will end. But I do know that I need to honour the journey where I've come, where we all come, and everything that goes with that. Absolutely. What an ending to have. So the title of that, what you just said, Life After Therapy. Yes. Is an interesting podcast, which I'm more than happy to be involved in. I'm so pleased that you'll be here, Bob. Okie doke, until next time. Yeah, take care and see you next time. Absolutely. Bye-bye.