 Hi, this is Sri Parivambha for SID. I'm the chair of marketing and I'm very happy, very pleased to moderate the CEO forum for SID display week 2020. We've been doing this for three years prior to that. This session was called the CMO forum and the CEO forum allows us to bring in leaders in the industry that can talk about their experiences, tell you about what we think is going to happen in the near-term future that you can benefit from as well as the theme for this year is successfully its close when each of the panelists are very successful in their career and they have left some clues as to how they were successful and the hope is to dig this out and for everybody to learn. So that is the introduction to the session. I've been in the display industry for a long time. This is my volunteer gig supporting SID to do this forum and a bunch of other SID related matters. SID, as you know, is a global organization supporting the electronic display industry this year because of the pandemic, we are doing everything virtual. But that said, the knowledge and the information and the panel discussion will be just as effective as it were physical. With that, let me introduce the panelists. We've got a wonderful set of panelists this year. Dr. Oman Lasman is the Vice President and the Head of Performance Materials Fund called M Ventures, which is part of Merck KGAA out of Darmstadt. He is in his day job. He invests in companies. So he looks at a number of companies in our space. He coaches many of these companies. He has board roles. Previously, he was an R&D. His expertise in liquid crystal, as you can imagine, as well as in inkjet printing and his other inventions he's had and the work he's done have gone into a number of products other than displays into organic solar cells, transistors, sensors, and so on. With that, welcome, Oman. Thank you, Sree. Well, nice to see you. And hello, everybody. There's not much to add to that introduction. It was very thorough and it made me sound much more important than I really am, so thank you for that. I'm really a scientist at heart and I love seeing technologies developed and brought to market. So this, for me, is the perfect job because I get to be at the cutting edge of where that really happens. So it's a great time to be in this industry as well, a lot of great innovations and I'm looking forward to the discussion today. Thank you. Thank you so much. Stephanie Rogueski is Chief Operating Officer for Avigant Corporation. She's got a background in chemistry and law and she's an entrepreneur at heart. She's done a number of different things, from operations to finance to sales and marketing. And she works for a startup company in the ARBR space, working on Lightfield displays which is, as everybody knows, is a hot field here. She also runs a couple of different podcasts, one of them being Unraveling Pink where she brings men and women to talk about gender bias in the industry and her team for many of the companies she works with as well as for the company where she's the Chief Operating Officer is this concept of team joy as a core cultural value within the company. With that, Annie, welcome. Thank you, Shree. I could not have said it better. I appreciate that. You captured my background quite well. As you noted, I believe in a couple things that we should solve for joy and that getting to know each other as unique human beings is critical to our future. As you mentioned, I had a very kind of unusual and winding path in my way to Avigant, a COO. And now I have the amazing privilege of supporting a team that is developing display optics of the space. And we hope to deliver previously impossible consumer augmented reality experiences. So I'm excited to be here. I look forward to the conversation and appreciate you putting this together. Thank you so much. Scott Song is the third panelist on our team. Scott has got about 20 years of experience working mostly in the electronic display industry. He's the CEO of Pervasive Displays, which is part of the BOE Group, which is one of the largest display companies in our industry. He started with the Chime Corporation out of Tainan. And within the corporation, he has built a number of startups and has taken a few of them to exit. I believe he has built about nine different companies. And he is also part of the SES Company out of Paris. And Scott, today I'd like to start up companies, he invests in startup companies. And of course, he's got the job of running pervasive displays out of BOE. But that welcomes Scott. Thank you so much, Sri. You make me sound much more important than I really am. It's really a privilege to be sitting on the panel with such accomplished people. And I hope I can contribute today. Thank you. No, you certainly can. And the wonderful thing about our industry is it's constantly changing. There are new technologies constantly happening. And some of the existing technologies keep getting better and better. And what I like the most about our entire industry is not just these established technologies and companies and doing all these wonderful things, but also these startups that are constantly inventing something new. And when we think we've invented everything possible in a certain technology, there's something new. And that's what makes it very exciting. So with that, let's start with the first question I have is, what are the traits of a successful startup? What are the signs that you look for when you look at a startup and say, hey, I see the startup as having the potential? Let me take that question and give it to you, Owen. You look at a lot of different startups in your day job. What are the traits of a successful startup? Yeah, I mean, it's not an easy question to answer, actually. It might sound quite easy. And you can make a very nice checklist, and it will never give you a good startup. So I mean, when we're looking for things, primarily as a corporate investor, the first thing we look at is the topic. Is the company able to deliver some strategic value that Merck, KGA, Darmstadt can offer to some support? So when we engage in an investment, we're looking at companies that we can form a relationship within that we can bring value to as much as support than on their journey. But the key things that we're looking for are usually this team, it's culture, it's a great technology, it's an understanding of the market. All of the kind of the hard things, IP, are very important, and I think Annie will probably elaborate on this. For us, one of the important things is the culture of the team and how the management and the technical team and the board, these things which you can't really assess numerically but are very important to the success of a company longer term. It's necessary but insufficient to have a good technology, I would say. What do you think, Annie? I agree with Owen. I think what you're talking about, Owen, are things that I don't know how from an investment standpoint you tease that out. I know from being in the culture and experiencing what it's like to be on a team that really is humble and prioritizes helping each other and it says I've made a mistake and everyone just wants to help fix it, not assign blame. Those things are so intangible and yet so critical to a team working really well together. But I agree that having clarity around where you're going, especially in these days when things are more challenging, having a team that works really well together and is trying to advance things and not out for themselves and transparency between management and the team. Really feeling like you're in it together, that you have the information you need to be successful. All of those pieces are really, really critical. Yeah. Very good. Well, big difference between when you're within the company and you're looking at the company from outside, isn't it? Yeah. At the end, I mean, at the end, I always see an investment as, we're paying an entry fee to join the party late, right? So it's kind of, for me, we're becoming part of that team almost and that's part of the assessment that we do is just a team we want to be part of. And, you know, teams that use their investors to their benefit also can help themselves a lot, right? So it's not just the cash that we bring, it's that additional benefit as well. For both parties for sure. Scott, you invest in companies. What are you looking for? Yeah, as an entrepreneur in building the company, one of the most important things I think is having leadership throughout the entire company. Not just at the top, but every single person that comes in feels like they are leading the company in some way, taking it to a direction that they want. So visionary, when people talk about visionary, typically it's one person, but I believe it needs to be a team and that same visionary team needs to be very disciplined as well. So being able to, you know, run fast and run very far, right? Two very different disciplines, but we need to have that in one team. The other really important topic, I think, is that the people need to commit it to each other, success, right? So I worked for my team members, my team member worked for me and we're there to really, really support each other to do something that's important. And when we see a team, you know, may it be as starting company or investing, when I see a team that's really committed to each other and you can see that in the meetings, when you sit down and listen to the pitch and you can feel it, it really is a key ingredient for success. No, thank you. There are these tangible things and there are these intangible things and sometimes those intangible things are what makes those companies very valuable. So let's talk in terms of startup companies that have done some really great things and any of you can take this question as to have you seen examples of startup companies, you don't necessarily need to name them. You could if you wanted to, that have done some really extraordinary things and they could be an example for other startups to follow. Are there some very unique things that startup companies have done that you have observed that either you've invested because they've done something very unique or you admire them because you know of them and you've seen them skyrocket. I mean, many of the companies that today are have a trillion dollar valuation worth startups not that long ago, right? And I'm sure there are companies in our space today that are little companies that are coming to you asking for funding or asking for coaching or seeking your advice and including many people who are going to be in the audience listening to you. This particular panel will become part of that growth cycle and they will become very large companies. And so they may be able to learn from some of your examples. Well, one that jumps out for me in a very different space but was Airbnb just in how they started building a community from scratch. You know, they have this idea that was it had never been seen before and it's so personal as you bring people into your home. The way that the leadership team got in there in building that community and strengthening and really being visible not just to the team but to the community I thought was a very strong example of a startup that's building community, which is a little bit different than building hardware. But that's one startup that I thought was interesting and how they approached it. Well, thank you. That's a company that I admire as well. From a Taiwan perspective, I spent the last 15 years in Taiwan looking at startups from a different perspective and one part of getting funding is obviously going into the B-season and talking. The other side in the display world is actually scaling and manufacturing. And I see that also as part of kind of a very important part of growing a startup and taking it different places. And so being aware of how the technology fits within manufacturing, within timing, and it's not only can the process of technology fit within the manufacturing process, but also understanding that there's a chicken egg in all manufacturing and to scale, you need to get the timing right and you need to get the technology right. And then you need to understand your position in the value chain. And that sometimes is really hard when you're just pitching one, you know, you're coming in and saying, I've got this killer technology that really works, but you don't think about the larger scope. And so I think having those things in mind and putting into context for the investors and or the manufacturers really helps. Yeah, that's a good point, Scott. And I mean, I think your display technology is not something that you take on lightly, right? I mean, there's a certain tenacity needed to bring any display technology to the market. And you really need to have a strong belief in the company. You need to see that belief. And it's it's when people come with a crazy idea to solve a problem that you really see that come into bear, you know, so if, you know, a great physics concept that's that's, you know, the whole team are behind. You can if you can break that into a technology and scale it, then that's that's the recipe for success, basically. But that's not easy. It takes it takes a lot of a lot of belief in yourself to go through that journey. There's a lot of hurdles in the way. And it's a very long and complicated value chain, as well as we all know. There's to go from one to many is not it's not trivial. Scott Scott mentioned and having that in mind from the from the beginning, but have it not constrain your vision to the point where you don't invent the best thing you can invent is is is an art, I think. Not totally agreed. And I had the good fortune of working for a fairly large company that had extraordinary talent, extraordinary technology, billions of dollars under revenue. And and then I had the opportunity to go from there to a little startup that the technology was still emerging. But the little startup became quite successful. Whereas the established company I was working with started struggling. And to me, it was all about recruiting the right talent and bringing a team that really made a difference. So along those lines, my next question to each of you are how do you find great talent? And then within that context, you know, how do you find diversity in that talent? How do you go higher minorities when that pool candidate pool is fairly small? So anyway, we start with you in terms of how do you find great talent? How do you hire minorities? What are some things you do in the area of HR? Yeah, so it's it's challenging. We we are in a space my company in particular, which is, you know, the experience I draw from is in a very narrow space. And we haven't done a whole lot of hiring in the last few years. But the one position we were hiring for was was even more specialized than our general talent pool. And so it was really hard to find anybody who had the right right criteria. What I found was that there are a couple of things. There's internal culture issues. And then there's how do you how do you actually go out and find the people that you need within the company? Your mindset matters. Do you value diversity? Do you do you see it not as a check box or a box to check, but as something that actually makes you better and makes your products better because you're thinking about issues that you might not otherwise think about? You're bringing different perspectives and broader perspectives and deeper perspectives to the problem. And so having that mindset within a company and having that buy in within the company is important because if you do have the success of bringing in somebody who is in an underrepresented group, if they get there and they're the first one and they have a culture that doesn't embrace them, doesn't make them feel like they belong, then they're not going to stay. And so you have to start somewhere. And a lot of times you're the only the only woman or the only person of color, the only black person in that company. And that's a really hard position to be in. But if you're going from zero to something, you might have to transition through that one person as the first. And when you do that, having a culture that's welcoming, that's belonging that acknowledges the value that we all bring is really important to make that stick. It's like in gardening, you amend the soil, you make it as good as possible. So when you plant those seeds, they actually grow. But then externally, looking for talent, I really think that so much of our hiring happens through our networks. And if we look at our networks, do they look like us? You know, if you have a founding team of three white men and their networks are large 90 percent white men, you know that your company is going to grow as largely white men. And so diversifying your network, getting to know people who who don't look like you I think is really important. And then also we often hear, you know, I don't want to sacrifice quality, which sends a very negative message about underrepresented groups when really if someone has made it to that level as an underrepresented groups, they've overcome obstacles and hurdles that that the majority group didn't have to overcome. And so they come out the other side, not only with at least the same level of skill, probably better because they have to be better to get through. But they also have developed things like resilience and grip, which are really important and are kind of like these plus values when you're looking for for talent. So I think shifting a mindset around how do we look at the hires that we make and the people and see the value they bring separate from what school they went to or what their grades were, for example. Thank you. I mean, you highlighted something very important, particularly I can take your example into SID as an organization. We are run by volunteers. The majority of us are men and not just men. We are an intimidating group of men because most of us have a decade of experience that we don't really have a lot of people with five or 10 years of experience. And this has been a challenge in the Silicon Valley chapter for SID. We've solved this 50 percent of our officers are women and it wasn't easy. But now because of the diversity, we are getting new ideas, new thoughts and everything. And the future is going to be much better because we took that initiative. What's also nice about all of us are we kind of grew up in different parts of the world. And with that, we have some additional background and experience that is unique. Owen, what are your experiences in terms of hiring? Yeah, well, I mean, I have a very small team at the moment, but we do a lot of hiring within the companies and previously running large R&D organizations we had a lot of. But I was I was kind of a little bit. I mean, I guess I'm kind of blessed in a way that I worked for a big global corporate because diversity was kind of in built in effect because we had a lot of rotation from various subsidiaries and things like that. I think Annie kind of highlighted it really. It's it's a lot about the network. And I mean, you know, things that we're trying to do internally and also with hopefully this is creating these foundations, as Annie mentioned about, you know, making sure you've got the right the right soil. So, you know, Merck does a lot of training on things like unconscious bias. We're very mindful of these things trying to raise awareness. I think also Annie raised a nice point, which is about quality. And I think that's, you know, I don't think you sacrifice quality. It depends how you define quality. And I think maybe that's the the issue people need to really find because having diversity in the teams and having a different thought can make meetings longer, can mean there's more discussion. But actually, you're teasing out things that you wouldn't have normally discussed. And it's as I say, it's also about diversity of thinking and about the experience as well that people bring. So there's a lot of elements to it. But I think I think the bias against the kind of the norm extends even within the same demographic if your if your personality type is quite different. There's even there's even, you know, selection against that. So I mean, we have a long way to go to make this perfect. But I think the fact that there's awareness building helps us to do better, right? And we need to start to, I guess, raise the importance of it when we're discussing with our portfolio companies and with our teams in general. That's the only way we do it by putting priority on it. Our experience in SID was we were trying to do this at the corporate board level. It wasn't very easy to stay too long where everybody was interested in doing the right thing. So I just went and said, I don't have to ask anybody, at least the Silicon Valley chapter, we just went and I had no experience tried many mistakes, but it finally happened. I think you have a strong will and you're willing to make mistakes and just go forward when it just happens. Scott, you hired people in Asia, probably even more than North America or Europe, or maybe you're doing well. No, no, no, it's, yeah. Most of the time, it's been really interesting for us. Because our company is located in south of Taiwan in a city called Tainan. So there's not a lot of diversity to speak of. But one of the things that we pervasive has really, really benefit from is the number of women that we have, especially moms that we have in our companies. And it's invaluable to have these very wise, patient, able people that look at things very differently from me and of a male. So and many times, they're very open to give criticism positively. And to do it, you know, and also the other thing that I feel very strongly about is because we have moms in our team, they're selfless and they're willing to go out and share it and make the people team around them better. And so I guess this is a plug for moms, right? For Taiwanese moms or moms all around the world, really fantastic source of amazing talents that that really is sometimes underappreciated. So no, completely agreed. When I started my own gig a few years ago, I made a promise to myself that I'd spend at least five to 10 percent of my time helping unemployed people find jobs. And I started focusing on people over the age of 55. And you'd think in Silicon Valley, we don't discriminate. We certainly do. And then also focus on these kids fresh out of school without a job. And these two categories have a very, very tough time, you know, getting back into employment is never easy. Let's switch subjects a little bit, but continue to stay in the industry. What are some trends you're seeing from a technology perspective? Where do you think the money will flow in our industry in the next three years in terms of what types of products, technologies and companies you think will receive the funding, whether it's public funding, whether it's venture funding and that sort of thing? Any of you can take this question. OK, well, I'll have a go at the start with, I'll kick it off and then everybody can disagree with me. So I mean, it's interesting times for the industry, actually. You know, for a long time, we've been in a situation where there's kind of one dominant technology. Now there's quite a lot of different technologies coming forward. You know, I mean, OLED is already kind of now commonplace. We're seeing a lot of innovation in the micro display space. You know, new use cases like AR, VR, 8K, you know, foldable, rollable. There's this huge amount of, you know, new innovation and new development and new segmentations of the market. So I think there's a lot of opportunity and certainly a lot of interest in tech coming forward because each of these new technologies has a lot of bottlenecks and, you know, things that need to be fixed in order to make these mass production ready at a cost that people can tolerate. So I think it's really interesting. There also seems to be a lot of convergence between both ways, actually, between display and the kind of conventional semiconductor industry. So a lot of the, you know, these micro displays and the semiconductor fabs are now thinking, can we make these micro displays? These fabs are thinking, can we make panel level packaging? So can we diversify into, you know, electronics packaging? So it's it's very interesting. The technology is driving some very interesting changes. And that will also distribute, redistribute the cash throughout the industry differently over the years as well. It creates a lot of opportunity. And I think it creates a lot of new new areas and new niches that we can that could be quite significant, in fact. And it'd be very interesting to see, you know, what some of the big platform providers are planning on the AR VR when that comes forward. But yeah, in the next two, three years, I think we're going to see some very exciting developments, especially for more wearable technology. No, I completely agree. Now, I mean, what can we agree? I agree. AR is the future. Out of the way. I mean, it is exciting to be in the air space right now, because I think not only is there a lot of exciting progress being made on the display side, but for the past three, four months, we've all been sitting at home and looking at each other on these screens. And it could have been so different if we had a fully developed AR has that at this point that people could use. And there was content to to use and do this virtually in person. So I'm excited about that. I also think that where I sit in the air space, there I see all these different pieces coming in. So displays and hardware, of course, are critical to making any of that happen. But we have, you know, AI and machine learning and facial recognition and eye tracking and all of these things that when they finally come together in AR create a lot of amazing potential, but then also some kind of scary possibilities if used in ways that are not for good. And so as I look at how technology is evolving and where we're headed, I think a couple of things are really important. One we've already talked about is having those diverse teams. You're thinking about those issues, like in facial recognition, we've seen a lot of companies start pulling back from that. And we saw early in the development of that technology that women and black faces were not being recognized. And that's a big problem if you think about a future that involves facial recognition across the board, like you're leaving people out of that future. And so thinking about how diverse inputs are creating the foundation for what is feels like a next wave of technology that will be generational for us to experience. And then also the responsibility that comes with that, who's thinking about the ethics of how we use this technology. We all have our pieces, our domains that we're looking at. But we also have now experienced like the first wave of of the internet community and what can happen on on platforms out there. And so it's a good time for us to be thinking about how are we going to use these technologies? How do we want to use them? What are the guardrails that they built into the product itself? Are they software bound? Are they legislative? So I think there's a lot of both potential and potential to really think about how we want to use technology going forward. Totally agree. I think as long as we are mindful and we plan from the very beginning, it's much easier to solve rather than just get into some technology with a simple application than to discover all these issues that we are much harder to fix later on. Scott, you know, if you're going to put a plunk in ten million dollars, which part of the industry excites you the most? I wish I had ten million dollars. You talked about that. I just, you know, I just choose to put my time in things that I think is important and fun. And I think, you know, the one obvious thing that Annie pointed out as obvious is, you know, this unified communication space and what's happening with everybody talking to each other. And I think it's, you know, it's just it's got to be to me. It's got to be more than just talking to each other on a screen. Right. How do you do things more collaboratively in a meaningful, deep kind of way? Well, the sun's coming through and I'm pointing out here. And then so, you know, I think there's a lot to that there's so, you know, going beyond just the medium and just talking to each other. Right. How do you really, really collaborate in a meaningful way from a distance? I think that's that's that's quite meaningful. The other that I've been looking quite a bit in is digital lighting. I think there's the, you know, the the DLP is coming back. And there's a lot of applications across different areas. And it's really interesting to see how people are reinventing what can be done with micro display. And and I'm excited to to spend more time playing that field and see what value we can add. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think we've discovered that these immersive experiences are pretty tremendous and there's a lot of interest there to develop that. And I think it's also just if I just can just elaborate a little bit, Sri, on that point. I mean, it's it's also, you know, true of any display that the hardware is only the tip of the iceberg, right? It's the psychology of how the user perceives that display, which is ultimately the most important thing. And I think with with the AR and VR, that's going to be really an important aspect to develop. You know, how do we make the use of the technology to provide the right experience and in a way which is sort of psychophysically acceptable and enjoyable? Yeah, we we we hate it when the true value in a product is not our display, but it is some software. But what that is, some of these products are just like that. So let's talk about a slightly depressing subject. We've talked about some really, you know, uplifting subjects, which, you know, life is not just all ups. There are some downs. So the last several months, we've been in a shutdown mode worldwide, right? Our industry has lost revenues. Lots of people have been unemployed, maybe not as much in our industry, but the broad in, you know, society has lost a lot of jobs and therefore people have less money. They're not spending as much money buying displays, investing company, we all need different things. So what is your advice to companies for the next half of this year in terms of what they could be doing to not only recover, but get back on that very positive proactive way in which they were working before all of the shutdown happened. Any, you want to take this one? You're in Silicon Valley, you know, there is a lot of enthusiasm. We don't believe in, you know, being depressed. It's all about tomorrow. Well, it has been pretty fascinating to be in the hardware space because we work together. We work with things and we're a multifunctional team that in regular times works really closely together and we've had to distribute different parts of our lab to people's houses. So it's been really challenging to not only, you know, I mean, we're pre-revenue, so we're not, it's not a sales hit for us so much as a progress hit. Trying to move things fast as fast as we normally would when you have people in different cities and driving hardware and leaving them on porches or dropping them off at the office and not passing ships, passing them at night. So it's been challenging. We've tried to really conserve cash and be mindful of where we're cutting costs to save money and to extend the runway. We've also had to have much more discipline in our focus. We have a very creative team who comes up with new ideas all the time and it's nice to be able to chase some of those. But at this point in time, we have to be more disciplined and think about, okay, what gets us to the next milestone that we can raise on? And so we, it's forced us to take a look at not just what we're working on and where our best successes are, but where our customers will want us to be and charting that course. It was very exciting to kind of get back into the office. So we've sort of opened up, we did a return to work policy that I got to learn all about multi-layered laws of federal and state and municipal and healthcare and all these things to try to come up with a way that we could at least get a few people in the office to work on hardware together. And that's been amazing to actually see the progress pick up when that's happened. But it's hard. I mean, if you need to work together and move things forward, sheltering in place in your homes is not the best way to do it. So discipline for us and cost savings have been the critical factors. I would say, for us, it's very, I learned recently from a friend who told me that you're not in the business of making displays. You're in the business of survival and making money. Okay. And it's really mean, that's a very meaningful statement for me because basically in a way, we've always been making, at per basically make millions of displays every single month. And it's not just about what you're doing today, right? It's you're looking out and it's maybe a half a year, a year and a half, however long, whatever your theory is. And you got to figure out how to pivot your company in such a way that you know that the people that you're fighting for is gonna be, is gonna have a job down the line. And that takes a willingness for you to re-examine what it is you're doing may be successful or not, right? And then figure out a very practical, very disciplined step in how you can really get from A to B and survive. Because if you don't survive nothing, there's everything's lost. And so it maybe it's a little more gloom and doom, but I think it's about focusing on what gets you to, to me a year and a half later, right? We're able to kind of invest into more exciting things, but right now it's about these practical things about paying the bills and putting food on the table for me. No, absolutely, that's so important. Not just personal, but companies too. When you manage a portfolio of companies that are a part of your investments, what advice are you giving the startup company CEOs that they follow in the next half of the year? Yeah, I think Annie and Scott basically I mean, if you were doing around this year, then if you've got any interest close it, otherwise try and keep the cash, try and make sure, I mean, and aside from those things, I think the other important things are, the companies that are doing well are the companies that have adopted with whatever difficulty, because we all either have to travel or we work in labs. For us, it's not been so bad in terms of actual work, although it's not much fun, as much fun as normal. Sorry, Annie. But yeah, for people doing hardware and things like that, it's those that have been able to adapt to do at least something. And it's about how we can keep the teams engaged, how we keep everybody supported and positive during this, right? Because we're not Silicon Valley, we're European, we like to be miserable. So we have a bit of an outfit that way in terms of making sure that we're all good. So the doom and gloom aspect has been, I think the hardest thing. But I think most companies have, in fact, all the companies in our portfolio have taken this, I've had to take this really seriously. And it's about really trying to get everybody doing as much as they can to survive and stay sane. And hopefully in the process have a little bit of fun. It's brought the teams closer together, I think. It's meant that we've had a little bit of a common enemy, which has also brought everybody a bit, I think, closer together. It's also nice. So, but yeah, I mean, I think it's cash conservation and prioritization, right? It's about the key things. And step, was it, for us Europeans? When we started, I noticed I have a cricket team here in the Bay Area, and I told the teammates, why don't we set up a thing where I teach a class on what I call quadrant two, which is your important but not urgent stuff. Now that we have a little bit of time to be driving around and you know, are on an airplane. And that turned out to be very useful. Some of the people were able to take and do the things that they've been taking about for a long time. So some of those opportunities. So let's switch from a more micro level to a much more personal level for individuals listening to this forum and learn and see some of the clues that you have each of you left behind. I wanted to ask you my first question is, what are some habits that you've formed? What are some decisions you made in your career that brought you to where you are? Today, early on in your career, what kind of fork in the road that you encountered? What decisions did you make and what habits stuck along the path that you think are driving you to be able to succeed in your current role? Start with you. Sure. So let's see, I feel like the old person talking about this, but really early on in my career, the best advice that I got was from my mentor who said, find a great boss to work for. Because inherently you don't know what is a good employee and not a good employee. What makes you successful versus not? But invariably, if you find a great boss who takes an active interest in bringing you along, educating you, giving you exposure, then you're really in a fantastic place where you can learn and grow, right? And as you, I would say, you match rate a bit more than there are other traits I think that are important to be. And I found tremendous reward for being loyal, but also for being candid and willing to speak up. And those are really important. And then as I started, I started companies and failed and in many of them, my father gave me a great advice, which is basically to be very introspective and to give yourself a regular cadence where you're reporting out to others because starting a company is very lonely. Sometimes even though you have folks that are around you working with you as a team, as a CEO, sometimes you're not able to share the anxieties and the three o'clock in the morning, waking up thinking about cash flow issues. And so if you were to able to give yourself a little space on a regular basis and to write down, literally in a report to your board or your investors and others to share what's happening that reduces the overall anxiety level and allows you to go a lot farther because it is a marathon, it's not a sprint, right? And then, and then now in my career, I think one of the things that I tell people is really to question the norm because we grew up within the display industry has so much legacy and history and amazing success and people have followed certain tracks or habits of how they're successful. And my advice is to say, respect that, learn from that but create your own route because basically that's how really value is created. It's not by following somebody else, it's by questioning what's happening and thinking to yourself, is there a way to do it better? And am I team in position to go create that and chart that course? So it's my thought. Any what decisions did you make in your career that got you here? Oh, yeah, it's somewhat a weird one. About 10 years ago when I, sorry, 15 years ago I was a software analyst. I was doing supply chain optimization. How many shirts have each color goes in a box to fulfill like a supply chain need? And I got fired because I was too arrogant as an analyst. I asked for a raise every single month and I got one for like six months and my boss didn't go more. And so I decided, that was so materialistic, I need to go back and hang out with my mom and dad. And so 15 years ago when I moved back to Taiwan and the only job in Taiwan was with the teammate in the display industry and that's how I happened upon this. And so this, I would say, that that was the fourth in a row to decide to go back to Taiwan and work with my father, yeah. Very nice. And usually we see a lot more people from Asia going to North America or Europe and you actually did the reverse. Yeah, it's been very, very interesting. But seeing it from Asia and then also having that understanding from America and Europe, because I work for SES, it's been tremendous and eye-opening for me. So Annie, how does a lawyer get into a COO role? That's a great question. There was a moment when I was a lawyer, I was a young lawyer and a partner asked me if I would help him with a very thankless task that no one else wanted to do and it was something like building for the future. No credit, just extra work and no positives really coming out of it. And I said yes to that and I can trace back to that moment all of these other things that happened along my career path that ended up at Apagant. It introduced me to people, it got me in front of people who later when I had my own law firm, I reached out to them as potential clients and then they brought me in. And so there's all these things that can happen that you don't even expect. So for me, helping was a very critical thing early on, like not being in it for the glory necessarily but rolling up your sleeves and helping someone who needs help and it can come back to you in surprising ways. And then also I discovered that I enjoy risk. Like as a lawyer, you're always mitigating risk and trying to identify and then tamp down that risk and help people avoid risk. But as I progressed in my career, I realized I actually enjoy a certain amount of risk. I like to understand it and do some planning but I think that there's a nice balance of planning and I call it improv because I enjoy some improv too. Like you're thinking about the right way to go but you're open to possibilities and maybe something comes up that you don't expect and you go explore that. And I think the most interesting parts of my work adventure have been when I embraced risk and I tried something that I hadn't tried before. When I became CEO, I went on Google and I Googled what does the COO do? I was pitching this to my CEO and turns out he did the same thing it's like what does the COO do? And then we talked about it and we discovered that it's really a malleable position that is complementary to the CEO. And so how do we complement each other? How do we have skills that are different but help each other in their attitude? And so all of these different paths that I took I think positioned me for this role that is really a bunch of things together and learning. And I have a team that's very supportive and knew that I was doing things for the first time and gave me the space to do that. So it's been an interesting journey. No, that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, and in our industry people from R&D they think the rest of the commercial aspect is not so important. It's all about R&D. And you went from COO R&D to a very commercial role. What cost you to do that? Yeah, well, I mean, I'm probably gonna say the same as Scott and Annie but just in a slightly different way. But I mean, if I trace it back I think there's a few things that I've made. It's a difficult question. It took me about three weeks since you first sort of paused this to think about this. It's not an easy one to come up with. But I mean, one thing that I've always done is try to invest in myself. And this is about continual development, always learning. So, and this is curious, curiosity. I mean, basically not saying no. So if somebody asks you for help, as Annie said, you get stuck in not because you want the glory but because you want the learning. You want to be in the experience as well. And I think when you do things like that the opportunities come to you almost, right? And I think it's about being in the right place at the right time, following your passions is also important because it's very easy to be motivated about things that you love and you care about. And I have some more kind of, I think one of the things that struck me early on in my career was how often you're in an uncomfortable situation and if you can switch your framing to be comfortable in those uncomfortable situations then life is suddenly a lot easier and actually you can embrace those uncomfortable situations because of the strength it gives you. And I think that just reframing things like that also helps a little bit with some of these tough jobs that we need to do. And for me, one of the important things, I'm a scientist at heart. I did a lot of work on liquid crystals and their interfaces are really important. And I think in business interfaces are always the most important thing. So, identifying, manage those interfaces. It's the edges where stuff breaks and where stuff happens. So, that's where you get the things are gonna go wrong and where the things are gonna go right is always an interface somewhere. And I think for me, just a personal thing is a personality thing as much as anything, but openness and transparency and ability to kind of voice concerns, give feedback and receive feedback. I think also very critical for self development and development of your teams around you. And I think what Scott said about, get a good boss is great. I mean, that helped me a lot. Just in that moment, I thought, well, and that helps you because then you be a good boss and that also then helps you to catalyze that. So, you said that habit that successfully excludes, well, I hope that the successfully excludes in a string of other successful people are more successful than I am. That's the ultimate aim, I have been a leader and helping your teams. There is, I can relate to almost everything that each of you said in my career. I went from being an engineer to went into a marketing role, going back well over 30 years. At that time it was very simple. I liked talking to customers way more than sitting at the bench and working on oscilloscopes and signal generators and things like that. And I was also very fortunate to have these bosses and the CEOs I worked for that were helped me at every step of the way. In the last three, four months, I've had the opportunity to call many of them and say thank you for helping me 30 years, 20 years, 25 years ago, 12 years ago, whatever it is. It's very, very wonderful to have those opportunities. The next thing I wanted to ask Annie, we'll start with you. If you were to go back and redo something looking back at your career, what is that one thing that you would go and change? There was a moment, this was when I was, I would say a baby lawyer, my very first lawyer job. And I liked to joke around and that was a very big part of who I was. I maybe chose poorly in my profession because the legal profession is not my profession, but I can remember sitting in my boss's office and he said something and I kind of made a joke. And he stopped and he said, you need to not joke around. People won't take you seriously. You're not gonna get promoted, you're not gonna get into court, you're not gonna be successful in the legal profession if you joke around. And I always thought people could tell that even though I joke around, I also have a serious side and I'm professional and I'm irresponsible. But that struck me and I totally changed my personality. The next day I came in and I was lawyer Annie and I wasn't myself for 10, 15 years. And then I got to a point where I looked back at my career and it was like, okay, I'm successful as they say you're supposed to be successful, but I'm not happy. And that's when I started coming back to who I was and maybe it's easier to do later in your career than when you're a baby lawyer starting out and asking for a raise every month. But I realized that I wasn't being myself and I didn't enjoy coming to work every day as somebody else. And a lot of people have to do that as particularly underrepresented groups, show up as how the majority group actually show up. But I gave in too easy. I think I should have hung on to what is really a core part of who I am. And it should have been a red flag that I was in the wrong place. There were other places I couldn't go on where I could have done myself and I could have jerked around and I eventually went into court and was absolutely myself and the judges enjoyed it. So it's a tricky thing because if it's perceived as something you have to do to be successful then you have to make that calculus yourself. But that was a point at which I started solving for joy. I realized I want to enjoy what I do. It's not every day, it's not every moment but finding joy in the work that I do is critical to me being happy. And so I now am my silly goofy self at work and I'm around a bunch of people who appreciate that and also know that I'm professional and give me a certain modicum of first fact I think. And that balance is really important. I for the first time in my career can bring my whole self to work and that feels really good. Well, that's so important, right? A lot of times we don't take the time to look back and that's very important. Owen, what would you have done different? Oh, my answer seems a bit facile now after Annie's and thank you for sharing that. That was quite profound but I think I would have just learned more. As a chemist, I just feel a bit like I'd like to have learned a bit more physics. I've always tried to better understand what's going on with the devices and more and more I think it's just a skill that I feel I would have, it's one of those things that I would have liked to have studied a lot and probably will do at some point. But yeah, it's very hard cause I mean, I've made, I've pride myself on having no regrets. There's nothing in my career that I would look back and really change, I think. I've enjoyed every minute of it, ups and downs, you know, all of it, it's all been, it all makes you part of who you are. So I don't think I would change anything other than be just a bit bad at what I do. Scott, what would you have done different if you looked back at that? Yeah, you know, I'm, how do you say? I'm a non-technical person in the very technical industry. I would say that my value when I walk into a room has always been the ability to explain something very technical in a non-technical way and that's because I had to understand it myself and that's the only way I understood. And that said, I would say that, you know, I would have done a lot more, I would have been more serious at school really and taken to more technical topics and issues and that would really round me out as an individual because I think I would have seen a lot more pitfalls and projects that we went into, a lot more fundamentals, look at things from a physical perspective what is the law and how do you interpret that in terms of the context that we're in? So a lot more fundamentals I think would have got me to a better place in my opinion, although I'm happy where I am, but it's just, it would have been really nice to have. Yeah. So truly, I think if we don't go back and look back some of those opportunities to learn will be lost and then you have the opportunity to look back even if it's a theoretical thing and you can share. There are many people are in their careers there that's part where you were many years ago and this is a learning body. So we are coming up on the hour and this will be my last question. We'll start with you Scott. If you are new entrant into the industry, what area would you advise that they go look for a career in terms of what technology, what types of companies, what kind of disciplines and as well as give us some of your parting thoughts on the industry in general. I mean, if I was newly coming back into the display industry, I would actually look and like Owen said a little earlier, the fringe, right? Where is the interface between a meaningful display technology and a meaningful application and to weave somehow through, to understand the, that's called the limitations and also the values of that technology and then what is, what does that mean? The what and so what, right? So what does that mean to the application itself and how do we weave something that's of more value out of it? And I think that's where the more time that I find, I was reflecting on where I want to spend my time. That's where I would want to spend my time and there's some great, great applications out there. And a real quick parting thought on, I can tell you the last place where I thought I would be 15 years ago was in the display industry and having kind of spent the last 12 years and reflected displays and trans, transfect these things that I didn't even know how to pronounce. I would say, you know, I'm tremendously grateful for the diversity and opportunity that the display industry has opened up. It's, you know, if you're in the display, you're newly coming into the display industry, you're really lucky because it's a place that has just so much potential and diversity and amazing people that you're about to meet. So I, you know, I'm very thankful. So. No, thank you so much. I completely agree with you. This is the wonderful, wonderful industry. Any parting thoughts as well as where do you recommend people to young people joining industry go like field displays maybe? Well, I didn't even know the display industry existed a few years ago. So it's relatively new for me. If I had known about this, if I was going to do it over again, knowing what I know now about where the demand is for talent, I would want to be an optical engineer. The problem though is like, oh, and I was a chemistry major and I hated physics. I did everything I could to avoid physics class. So I don't know quite how I get from that to optical engineering, but if I could just like flip a switch and be an optical engineer, that would be fantastic. I would take physics or chemistry any day because chemistry is wonderful for me. I do love chemistry, but you can admire a lot of things that even if you're not good at it. Okay, Owen, same question. Where would you advise somebody to go work in our industry when then any parting thoughts about our industry and as well as this? So yeah, I mean, it's a great industry to work in. I mean, it's tough times, but everybody's having tough times. It doesn't change the fact that it's an awesome industry with a lot of, as Scott said, a lot of diversity both in the technology and in the markets. So I think this year has been difficult, but I think we're gonna create a lot of new opportunities and I think the fact that we're all gonna be at home for an extended period, we're gonna drive demand even more for these new applications. In terms of where I would go for, if I was starting out now, I would actually, I mean, I worked in liquid crystals. I never worked on displays. I worked in liquid crystal semiconductors. I would go back and I would make the holograms that we were trying to make during my post-op because now the technology platform is about maturing up to actually go and make that thing with more than one pixel. So I think holography is gonna be big and I think that's gonna be the next big thing after AIR and VR, once we've solved those problems. Okay, thank you. I had a little bit of connection problem, but... Well, we did pretty well, I think. We managed the whole hour with very few ITs and so that was good. So we started the CEO forum just to give something to those who are not just attending the technical conferences and symposiums to give something for people in HR, people in sales and marketing and business development and so on and so forth. And that is the value that this forum brings and we will of course have Q and A. People will be able to participate and speak with each of you. But thank you so much for being part of this and giving your time and I know we are in different places and this wonderful technology has brought us together to be able to talk and give something back to our industry so everybody can get back in the second half of the year, make up for some lost time and go off and create something wonderful. We'll all look back and if we ask ourselves the same questions next year and hopefully this is a point in which we can say because of all the things we did this year and because of the experiences we had recently, we are better and we are gonna do much more and we are gonna be able to contribute and we'll have a very joyous future. So with that, thank you so much for your time. Thanks. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Bye bye. Thank you.