 Okay, we're back, we're live, I'm J-5W, everybody getting tired of looking at me already today. And back to back here, it's Wednesday, this is our flagship energy show. This is Hawaii, the state of clean energy supported as you must know by the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum, one of the most beautiful, constructive, and helpful energy organizations on the planet right here in Hawaii, Nei. Wow, we are so lucky in so many ways. My co-host for this show, Ramsey Brown of Hawaii Energy. Hi, Ramsey. Hi, Jay. Thanks for having me. I knew you'd say that. Brilliant. We have two special guests, and they are from WSP. That's William's. William's sales partnership, by the way. Which is actually sort of merged into WSP, which is a global organization. Charles Shaleiship to my double left, and Kevin Loma to my immediate left. Hi, guys. Hi, Jay. Nice to have you here. Thank you for having us. So I get the idea that you guys are in code, doesn't sound right, that you care a lot about building codes in order to achieve energy efficiency. Is that a good start? That'd be a good statement. Okay. And is that what WSP does? No, we design building systems. Our portion of the WSP design building system, but we utilize the code for the standard of how we design. Okay. And in energy efficiency, we use that as a guideline for our designs, more of a baseline of our design. Ramsey, can you give me some depth on these guys? What is it about them that we like? They're deep guys. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. That's it. No, they do quite a bit of design with many different organizations that you've heard of, all across Hawaii, all through downtown. They work with the DOE. They work with commemoration schools, different private schools. Again, many of the tenant improvements in downtown commercial buildings. So WSP has their hand in a lot of different projects, and they always look to exceed the standard, exceed expectations, and exceed code. Yeah. That's so you guys are the Cadillac then of energy efficiency and building and code, right? Am I right? I would say so. Okay. All right. Let's see what they do. I mean, we always look at what brings the most value to the client. We can design a Cadillac if the client needs a Cadillac. We could design a Prius if the client needs a Prius. And we love designing Teslas when the client wants a Tesla. But different strokes for different folks, and sometimes people are just going to get the car and sell it right away, and sometimes people are going to operate that car until the wheels fall off. And so we need to make sure that for whatever need the customer has, we can meet. Boy, that's pretty flexible. You've got to be able to pay the bills. Sure. Well, that's the way you get customers actually by offering flexibility. Absolutely. Because there are people out there who look for value engineering on everything. Value engineering, by the way, if you didn't know, means go cheap. You guys are both engineers? That's true. Yeah. What kind of engineers? The answer is usually good engineers. But what kind of engineer? Mechanical engineer. We're licensed mechanical engineers. Licensed. Okay, and where'd you go to school? University of Michigan. Okay, fair. I went to the University of California at Santa Barbara University of New South Wales. How did you meet? Did you meet in WSP? Yep. Yeah. We're not dating anyone. We met professionally at WSP. So I got some questions. It's been made clear to us in advance that you guys exceed the new code, the code that was just recently signed by David E. Gay that was in the process of was Howard Wigg for years or from D-bay to the energy office. And this code is supposed to be the cat's meow. It is supposed to be the Cadillac. It is supposed to raise our sights. Right, Ramsey? It was supposed to be, you know, the ship comes in. This is what we've been waiting for all these years. But you don't even go there. You go better. How do you, why do you say that? So, as Charles mentioned before, we designed what the owner desires and wants. So it really depends on the client that we're dealing with. If they want, if they just need something right away and they only have the finite amount of money to spend in it, then we'll design to the previous code, which is the IEC 2006. And that's still the code currently in all the counties because only the state is notified by the counties. Yeah, who knows when that's going to happen. We're trying to work with them to get that portion. I'm so sad about that. But for like the DOE, for UH, for federal projects, we are designing to what, a life cycle cost analysis. So what would be the best for over the long term? Like if you're operating the building, you're going to have to pay the bills for 10 years, 20 years. We're going to design what's best over that period of time and do a comparison, your first cost compared to life cycle cost and what comes out in the long run. So where do you start when you have these conversations, you know, these flexible conversations with the clients? You say, well, look, here's the new code. And we're going to do at least that. Or do you want to go back to the previous code sometimes? That would be below the new code. I mean, where do you start in order to achieve the standards that you want to offer? So, I mean, we'll set benchmarks, right? We'll lay it out for them and say, you know, here are the benefits of this system design or this approach or this car over the life of the car, right? Are you going to be operating this car for the long term? Are you also going to be maintaining this car for the long term? Or are you going to be selling it off? And each of these different strategies have a different benefit depending on on that viewpoint. So we always try and set energy goals to start benchmarks for design and minimum requirements, right? So the minimum requirements would be what the energy code is current. Yeah, we would never do that. At least comply with the law. And then we would go beyond that where we feel that there's some added value, especially in a place where we have 30 cents a kilowatt hour for energy. So if something can pay back in five to seven years, that's a great payback for a lot of people. You know, some people need a three year payback and some people are comfortable with a 15 year payback and we can lay those things out and we like to lay those things out early. So you're actually, I mean, it's different points, different results, but you're actually writing in another code, your code. And it's above the, so give me an example of a variable where you would say, well, you know, the code says this, but we want to go that. So, so when it comes to PVs, that's one thing code doesn't require photovoltaics on any building, but by doing analysis, you can see, even if you're not doing a PPA agreement, power purchase agreement, I'm familiar with that, it usually pays within five to seven years putting in a PV system. So if an owner occupy a building, usually they're, yeah, we're willing to spend that initial upfront to get that payback in five to seven years and then that system lasts for 20 years for that. So the extra 13 years, you're, you're just making money off of that. So it's, that's a very simple way, way that system that we would design a project that's way above what the code is, but it's easy for an owner to justify it. And something that is maybe unique to our office and something that me and Kevin are pretty passionate about and the new code is actually going to help us is energy storage, right? So batteries. So a lot of times on almost, you know, most of our buildings, the larger buildings at least, we need backup diesel generators, right? And these allow some time for people to escape during a fire, right? They give power to the building so that people can exit with lights, right? And so you drive down, you know, Queen Street and you'll see a big generator sitting outside of a parking lot or some exhaust stacks coming out of the side of the building. Architects hate that, right? So is there an opportunity to replace that with battery storage? Now that the battery technology is improving and costs are coming down, these batteries can be stored anywhere in the building. Well, with the new code, they're providing clearer guidelines for how battery storage can operate within a building and how it can be integrated into the life safety system. So that's something I mean, Kevin are really passionate about because we see a great benefit to the building of eliminating these ugly pieces of equipment from the, you know, perimeter space. We see a great savings on the maintenance of generators because those are, you know, something you have to maintain regularly every week or every two weeks. And then there's another benefit that a lot of people don't quite recognize is if some of those batteries maybe have a bit of spare capacity, we can then use it for demand response. We can then use it for renewable energy storage and that will help flatten the curve out, right? That will help HECO achieve their goal or achieve the state, achieve their goal of 100 percent clean energy. So that's one way that we're hoping to lean on the new code, to offset something that, you know, has been a design issue and provide benefit to not only our customers but to the community as a whole. And to bring Ramsey into the discussion. Why energy has this rebate between five and nine? That's when the higher usage is in Y and they're always trying to find methods to reduce that energy consumption between five and nine. Unfortunately at this point in time, they don't let you use battery storage to reduce the energy consumption there. They don't have a rebate for that between five and nine. But we're trying to work with them because that's a great opportunity to help out HECO to not have to expand their generator capacity by using battery storage. So you would just, you'd run it, you'd run power through the batteries during the day, start the energy and then between five and nine you can run your building off that battery, not use the HECO power and then switch it back after that. Ramsey, I noticed you've been writing furiously. Does this mean you agree, disagree, or you want to add something? I'd like to add something. What you heard there is that there are customers looking for rebates for battery storage and that's not under mandate as Hawaii Energy from the PUC. However, we do continue to work with them as far as reducing their load, reducing their customers load in the case of a design firm and their energy consumption and had a follow-up question wondering of our guests, can you highlight some of the potential benefits of the new code? Sure. You want to talk about generalities of new code? Sure. In general, we have mechanical equipment efficiencies are going to be required by code. Lighting efficiency standards are going to be required by code. But if you look around the U.S., that market has already been driven by U.S. Green Building Council and LEED certification, California, Washington, and some of the states with hot and stricter codes. So for me and Kevin to pull a high efficiency mechanical piece of equipment, there isn't really other some non-efficient option. Everybody out there is giving you something that's pretty good. You're not going to get a car out there that's only going to give you five miles per gallon nowadays. So the more interesting pieces of the new energy code are the requirements for commissioning in a building. So coming in and making sure things are operating per the design, some additional metering that may be required so that people can see how the building energy consumption is being used divided by different tenants rather than just one number for an entire building. And then the storage stuff that we have already talked about. In a couple other one, Doug leaked his testing. So a lot of times the contractor constructs it. But then if it's leaking before it actually gets to the place that they're trying to supply the air to, then that's just wasted energy right there. And then skylights and big box type retail stores by having those. A lot of times it's being done already because it just makes sense to do that. But that just encourages them because you don't have to run all throughout the day. You won't have to turn the lights on. And then another one is demand control ventilation. So ventilation is the outside air required to provide it to a space so the air quality stays good for human occupants. But then bringing in outside air to do that, it uses up a lot of energy to condition that to make it so it's not right now typical. It's like 85 degrees and like 70% relative humidity. But you have to cool that down to 55 degrees. So that's a lot of energy to do that. But you don't need to bring a lot of ventilation there when the building is not, or the space isn't occupied. So to have systems in there to shut off the outside air or to lower the outside air when it's not occupied. Now there isn't going to be a code to mandate that to save energy. I'm beginning to get it Ramsay. These guys are super engineers. They're mechanical energy dedicated to mechanical and energy issues and engineering analyses. And they come and they tell you how you should achieve the best energy, rather the best energy efficiency for the best price and where you can go on the continuum. And they have all the options in their pockets and so they can give you some pretty sophisticated advice. And I, you know the question I put to you guys is, are you alone in the field? Are you the only guys in Hawaii who does, is anybody else doing this? You don't have to name me. I think we should, I think the biggest trigger in how different firms operate is cost, right? And everybody asks, oh, what about these things having different cost impacts, right? Oh, this new energy code's coming out. How does it impact cost? Yes. And so, you know, we, we, we would like to think that we provide a high value service. And there are other players out there who maybe have, you know, or maybe more of the low price leader and you get, sometimes you get what you pay for, but, you know, our belief and maybe Kevin can chime in on more of this, but that the overall cost that we're offering for the majority of people in Hawaii. When you say that you mean the cost of construction, design and construction, the overall value of their property, not just the first cost, the energy code is likely to increase the first cost of construction. So who, who is going to be penalized for that is the first question you want to ask, right? And for the most part it's, it's developers who are likely going to sell off that car, right? Somebody's going to build that car and sell it off and never operate the hybrid, never operate the electric or even the fuel-efficient gas car. But for, for University of Hawaii, for the Department of Energy, for, for all the hotels, you know, those are big clients of ours. We believe that spending a little bit more upfront will pay back, you know, for the most part in less than five years from most of our designs. And, and the energy code is now requiring that. And so we're excited about that. So, Ken, how much of what Charles has said do you agree with? I agree with everything he said, but also to answer your question, as far as other engineers in the industry here, I'm the, the president of the local ASHRAE White Chapter. So I extend the acronym for our audience. It actually doesn't mean anything anymore. It used to mean American side of heating, refrigeration and air conditioning. At dinner my wife and I speak of little else. Well, you must have fascinating conversations. Because she doesn't even want to talk about it with my wife. But, but now since it's not just United States, it's the world. So they just say it's just ASHRAE, no more acronym. Okay. But yeah, throughout the, the, the state, most engineers are, have a desire to, to design an energy-efficient system. Some are a little more reluctant to go to newer technologies because lack of experience or just because the tried and true method has been, has worked so far. So why, why try something new? But as, as our, our office has, we sort of test the boundaries there. We, we've done the, at the UHIT building. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Sure. The new data center. We had an active chill beam system there. We, I think a good example was the, the Nelha visitor center right off the, right out the Kona airport. We have a passive down there. We're going there on Saturday to do some filming. So there's a small building with the, with a big PV array coming off the roof. Oh, sure. The energy building. That's it. Dan and always special expression of energy at Nelha. That's, that's it. So you know what I'm getting on this, Ramsey? It's really interesting. I'm getting that engineering as a profession has changed because now it's interlocking with energy and now it's interlocking with this kind of value analysis that you have to make. It's also more sensitive to what customers want. And that, you know, as professional matter, it requires you to listen to the customer and try to shape your recommendations around that. I think it's something I'm curious about. Yeah. As, as the profession changes, how does some of the engineering and energy code changes affect me as a, as a resident of the state and how houses might be built? Oh, what a great cliffhanger. Okay. We're going to, we're going to have a short break now. Okay. We come back. We're going to let them see if they can wrap their minds around that question. Okay. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. This is think tech Hawaii raising public awareness. Bingo. We're back with Ramsey Brown, my, my co-host Charles, shall I keep, shall I keep? Thank you, Charles and Kevin Aroma. And they're both from WSP, which is a super engineering firm here in Hawaii and elsewhere in the world dealing with energy and analysis for construction purposes. And they are ubiquitous in their own way. That's a nice thing. It's okay. In a global market, it's okay. So the cliffhanger question, Ramsey, let's go through that. Sure. We've been talking a lot about commercial buildings. And so I want to know, as a resident of Hawaii, how might the new energy code and your engineering expertise affect homes? So, so one good thing about the new energy code and that Howard Whig worked on, everyone's a lot of people are familiar with Howard Whig. He got an award for it, you know. I think it's out there. Well deserved. But the new code allows you to actually build homes cheaper than the previous code with the tropical homes amendments that they have there. One of the things there is they encourage you to have larger overhangs. With those overhangs, the sun doesn't hit the walls. And then there's less heat transfer through the walls because there's not direct sunlight on it. But since there's no direct sunlight, you know, you can build with single wall construction as opposed to a lot of the homes now being built with double wall construction because you have to fit R13 insulation in there. Whereas now you can just make a single wall. You don't need any insulation. So you're saving there. Plus if you have good reflectivity on the roof, then you can reduce your insulation down to an R19 as opposed to having R30 insulation that the old code had. And then with these large overhangs and good ventilation in there, it's less likely that you have to operate the air conditioning system or you don't need an air conditioning system at all. So there is opportunities to build a home cheaper with this new energy code. And it's not forcing you to do something that's not necessary. So are you working in this market? If I want to rebuild my home or build a new home, and I quote you guys up, you can help me with this kind of thing? Well, that typically would be just a contractor because for a small single-family home it wouldn't be necessary to hire someone like our company. But what we do do is we look at opportunities to reduce the need for air conditioning while maintaining comfort in the space so we can provide some guidance on size of overhangs, ceiling fan locations, window placement so that you get the proper, you can capture the trade winds and still maintain comfort in your house. Those types of things are right up our alley in terms of engineering. So are you cheap or an expensive or what? We normally don't do small single-family homes. We'll do larger single-family homes. Just give me a break. I would give you a break. I'd rather do it. Thanks, guys. Absolutely. Jay, let's give these guys a break. No, I mean, is it, you build by the hour? Like, you know, engineers normally, no, you build on what? How much money you save? How do you build? We do time and materials. We have been involved with energy contracts where, you know, somebody would offer to replace a piece of equipment for a set price each year and then get paid back on the energy savings. Oh, creative. Creative is good. This was not something that was done 10 years ago in the engineering field, was it? A lot of it's benefited by the newer technologies with regards to metering because before it'd be more difficult to actually evaluate. We wouldn't have a way to evaluate. And then finding out what it's actually doing would be more difficult. So with all, with newer technology, it's easier to evaluate what has actually happened or what's, or predict what's going to happen as well. So, you know, Ramsey, you might be interested in asking them where is this all going? You know, as a construction matter, a cost, you know, an engineering matter, and a governmental matter, where are we on the continuum toward Nirvana here? And where are we going? You might consider asking. Take it away. I could take it away. Maybe I have a question for you. I mean, we were looking, I've been doing energy efficiency, you know, engineering for a while, and one of my clients asked me one time, have I heard of a Jevons paradox? And it's, it's this idea is economic terminology that occurs. When do you spell, Jevon? Jevons, paradise. Paradox. Paradox. Paradox. So it's, it came from this guy, and he was studying the use of coal in steam engines. And as the, as the, as the price of coal dropped, or sorry, as the efficiency of the steam equipment increased, the demand for coal actually increased as well. Because the cost of coal dropped, because there wasn't as much demand for it, because things are more efficient. But people still wanted the energy that those steam engines were generating. So we're talking about, you know, dropping, making things more efficient, right? But we're also then talking about potentially dropping the cost of energy. And does that mean that as a finite, you know, island, that we're okay now? Our infrastructure doesn't, never has to expand because we're just going to keep dropping off and we're just going to go to zero through efficiency. No, right? We're growing economically. We're growing in population. And, you know, maybe our energy per person is decreasing. Overall, energy is still increasing. Yeah. So that really wraps into the 2045 100% clean energy target. And I like to think about it as we're looking at energy dieting. And we also need to talk about energy exercise, right? So one side is exercising the power generation and the other side is dieting efficiency efficiency. And you need both to be healthy, right? Like they always work for those six pack abs. I always see you at the gym. And it's like, we're just not going to get there unless the diet is there too, right? So we're looking at trying to extend the use of our existing infrastructure, prepare our infrastructure for the influx of new energy technologies, and then be able to watch how that works with all of our metering. So that's kind of, I think, where it all comes together is, you know, being able to understand that we're a finite island, we have a finite resource, and there's opportunities to create new energy. And, you know, one slide. Have you ever seen Elon Musk's blue square presentation? No. In the United States. Yeah. So I don't know if we have this slide. What is that one? Six, seven. Slide seven. So here we go. I think you had it up just a little while ago. So Elon Musk said that for PV to power all of the U.S., all we would need is an area equal to that blue square. And this is, and you know, whatever. You had to put it in Texas? Yeah, that's, yeah. I guess they have good sunlight there as well. It's not near Houston. That's the conclusion. So, you know, we have a similar goal, right, clean energy for all of Hawaii. And so I looked at it for Oahu. What does the blue square look like for Oahu? So the next slide, there it is right there. So there's a tiny red square, that's the kahe, that's the generation, yeah, the power plant right there at the electric beach, right? See it there on the left? Yeah. And then there's a blue square right there, sort of north of Waipahu. And that's, you know, kind of engineering guesstimate at what we would need in terms of renewable power PVs to generate enough power for the entire island. Now, would it only work during the day? Yes, absolutely. So do we need some technology to help us get there? Absolutely. Do we need some storage to manage the influx of power? Absolutely. And so, you know, we're dieting right now. We're trying to get some things ready for our exercising. And it might be in one place or it might be distributed everywhere, but we're hoping that the energy codes can help us get ready for that. So the energy codes are not going to, we can't get to our, the 100% clean energy goal of 2045, just by energy codes and reducing our energy consumption, it's going to have to get there by another means. And we feel that the battery storage is going to be the main part and the big part of our way to achieve that 2045 goal that Governor Higue. Well, don't you think we have to wait for better batteries? That's a provocative question. Well, that's why he doesn't feel that way. That's true. Kawaii feels that the battery technology is fine right now. And most every day they have enough, they produce enough power to, with their PV system, at least in the middle of the day, they have enough PV capacity for the entire island. And they're almost there with regards to their battery storage. But let me reframe it to say that, don't you agree that battery storage is going to have some remarkable development in the next few years, disruptive development? And it's going to be way more efficient than it is now. And that's got to be feeding into your analysis going forward now. Well, I mean, that's a big part of why we believe in conservation. We want to give Hawaii enough time to adopt these technologies and absorb these technologies successfully, rather than hitting this, you know, 1800 megawatt, which is the peak capacity that we have here in Oahu right now, and having to rely on whatever technology is available now to get there. Right. And that's where our diet is going to help us with all of our exercise. And another thing with the cost of batteries, yeah, there are a lot, five years from now, they're going to be a lot cheaper. But right now, when we work with the owners, everything is, can you justify the cost of what you're putting in there. So we're not putting, we're not designing in batteries that we're not justifying the costs with regards to life cycle costs. So, you know, it strikes me that what you do, I program, you know, I don't tell everybody that, what you do can be reduced to an algorithm with variables here, the computer program, artificial intelligence make it even more powerful. And, you know, you don't even have to go down to the client's office just to have him answer some questions and it'll pop up with the solution, right? Isn't that where we're going on this? Are we all just a big algorithm? Speak for yourself. I'm a computer with a lot of errors, but you know, try my best. But isn't that where it's going? I mean, you guys have to be using computers a lot in what you do. Absolutely. And there's been more and more going forward now. It's just helping us make decisions faster. It's helping us crunch data and take in more variables into our equations and still have a beneficial solution, right? Engineering 30 years ago. There was only so many things you can consider. But now we can consider the entire year, right? The whole weather of 10 years and see how this equipment is operating most efficiently rather than just that one hot day. Can we keep it cool that one hot day? That's old school engineering, right? That's non-computer engineering. Now we can look at the whole year. Yeah, we can keep it cool that hot day. But how are we doing on these other 80% of the time days? Are we being energy efficient? Are people comfortable? You know, can we turn it off? One other thing is this. We're talking about some pretty advanced stuff that you're doing. You're up against, you know, the edge of the envelope. And in terms of applying the engineering principles and having an open mind, thinking out of the box, making, you know, these sophisticated analyses. But there's only a small percentage of the population really understands what you're doing and appreciates what you're doing. Isn't part of this whole initiative to try to educate people, to appreciate that through this kind of Hawaii energy kind of efficiency initiative that we can all do better than it is a big part of reaching 2045? Not a little part. You know, who's doing that? Ramsey. Ramsey's doing that. Well, that's your own question. What is it? One of my favorite quotes, I'll just say my grandfather told me this, there's two types of people or two types of smart people or two types of successful people in this world, people who can take complex ideas and keep the solutions to themselves to become successful. And others who can take these complex ideas and break it down and educate others to empower them. And you know, myself and Kevin, you know, we're both trying to be that latter type of person that, yeah, there's only one or two percent of people who understand what we're doing. Why? Why doesn't everybody understand this? It's not really, you know, it sounds like we're pushing the boundary, but it's physics, right? It's been around for eternity. So it's something that we hope to educate, you know, our clients and, you know, with Ramsey's help, the community so that we can all push. But at the end of the day, we want every project that we work on, everyone to be comfortable within their space and the client to have a system that they are happy with and operate well and they understand and can operate. Yeah. You're not looking for clients, you're looking for partners. Yes. Yes, absolutely. We want to create relationships with these partners for a lifetime. It's that time, Ramsey. It's time to summarize the pros that have come out of this discussion. I think it's wonderful. WSP employs super engineers to help advance Hawaii's building infrastructure. I'm excited because we've always talked about energy efficiency being the first step in making your home or building more energy neutral. And afterward, we're already seeing, you know, we're beginning to see waves of transformation in energy storage, in renewable energy and generation, in the grid infrastructure, in buildings getting smarter, perhaps using batteries and replacement of generators, a lot of cutting edge stuff. And we see open doors of information flowing from the engineers that are designing these things so that our people can be more educated and operate the buildings more efficiently. We've got a new energy code coming. We're going to keep advancing on the next iteration of energy code as it comes. So we're excited that all engineers are working together. We're working to communicate here with you, Jay. So thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you, Ramsey. That's Ramsey Brown, Hawaii Energy, Imua. And Charles Shalysheep and Kevin Loma, a both of WSP. Thank you so much for joining us on this important discussion. Thank you, Jay. Yeah, take care. Aloha.