 I tell I guess it's just is it just you and me today Hi, I hope not yeah, not that there's anything wrong with you, right? I got it. I understand No, just a little bit shocked to come in. I was like, oh my gosh. I'm late and come in. It's well Only two people. Oh, there we go. There we go. Now it's starting to look like more normal greetings my Taylor it was Geoffrey's day to the lead today, but I think he's out so I Might be leading Okay, I just posted the meeting notes books can add themselves to those and add any agenda items Hey, Pankai Did you add a review today to the Sorry, I've been busy with something else. No worries. It keeps showing that like I've hit the Re-request review on a PR and And you keep coming back as if you've already done a review and asked for a change No, something must be wrong. Yeah I'm doing it again. I'm gonna click the little button Strange things that I have it in today in various computers I'm not sure what the hell is going on We had an early morning call and people kept audio drop all the time. We'll figure it out networking problems Greetings folks, we'll get started And I meant it or two here if you have a topic you'd like to talk about add it to the meeting notes Please add your name as well Okay, let's see. What do we got? So I just wanted to say that I didn't do my homework My cat ate my homework. That's my excuse All right But we did had a shorter week last week. So hopefully I'll get to it this week. I Understand hey Bill is that Okay, and there's Watson. I think everybody's connected to audio so meeting notes and Zoom chat And the calendar invite all that this call is being recorded and will be posted to the CNCF YouTube channel for the CNF working group You probably got the notice when you joined hopefully and zoom Does anyone have anything they'd like to add to the agenda? Something's going on with my Okay, there we go Google Docs is phrasing for me this Document might be getting too large I don't know 54 pages November 2020 But we may want to archive Some of it but it loaded for me. So does anyone have anything they'd like to add to the agenda? any are there any Talks that folks know of that have been accepted that you want to Tell everyone about so that we can Have the community now it's interesting for this group Taylor, this is all over I am. I think I kind of missed when you were well I was just too slow to respond when you were asking about adding to the agenda I'm just looking here. Sorry. I was curious if we had this last week We had some conversations and I think we kind of had Did I'm looking for it next week? Yeah, I like progress. I mean there was some No, there was some long conversations there. I'm just curious about one of the things that you know, at least I mentioned I think along with some other comments that were that were aired last last session You know about the potential for some sort of high level Ambition slash gold slash and maybe not objective, but I think we all I think we generally know why we're here but I think as far as Having some kind of vision to when do we when would we like to have some things done along the way that kind of gives us a Sense of whether we're making that progress or or if we're kind of just standing still and doing circles I don't know if that's something we can have on the agenda Or not or if everyone if there's others who feel like we've already had that conversation and we know what to do I don't know how level goals What is a target? Are you thinking like short-term mid-term? What are you thinking Oliver like the goal or further out? If you want what we could do is when we get to this there's there is actually a discussion that was started I think back in March I threw something out there. I think we just had a lot going on I think Ian might have commented on it and I've just you know pushed it again with a sort of to Ian saying hey Is this something that maybe we could revisit and consider so if you look up in the discussions when we get to this point You'll see there's there is something there people want to look at that and maybe Maybe we could iterate there to see if something can come out All right, and are you saying it's in the Google doc in from March? No, no, it's it's a it's just a discussion on in our In our get-up discussion. Oh All right. Yeah, I'll yeah, I was gonna throw it out It's the very first one right CNF working group high-level roadmap slash ambition Sure I Drop this in I feel like we could have a longer discussion about that So I'm gonna maybe put it after but it's related to what I was gonna go over okay, I'm Just kind of like how to get started and and that would tie on where are we gonna go of course, but Let's see I'll go back and see if there's Anything like open Conversation is Tal you're saying you didn't get to something was it about the free diameter. Oh No, not exactly It was suggested. Okay, nevermind That's fine. If you didn't if there's nothing to discuss tal. I was just saying if there's anything for today Alright alright It's come up Well, okay, so I'll just kind of jump in then I had asked if anyone has anything for kubecon then please Drop some links. There is going to be an intro and deep dive and maybe Talking about some of the practices and stuff and going into it at kubecon And From the group so this would be like who's seen a fork group and what are we doing? But are there any other if there's any other Talks that you all know about then please Adam Adam here so that the group knows and I guess same for ONES which is Same time right before I think it's at the start of kubecon Does anyone Involved with MWC or is there something interesting there mobile world Congress in Los Angeles. All right, I'll jump into the rest of the agenda so leading up to and I Would I would work backwards if we already had it all over But if we don't have something I don't really want to start a big open discussion then come back that I guess the General goals right now. I We somewhat have a specific one right now, but where does it go beyond that not be of question and the discussion but we do want to end up with a whole set of best practices That Whether you're ops in an ops team or a developer you could come and say here's a set of best practices and which ones are useful for me and that could be something there may be Will not just make there's see if we'll end up with the some type of Set a subset similar to the Kubernetes conformance program is Is a subset of VD test so there will be some set that's here's the set that's recommended and That's further out But right now it's we were trying to build that list of here's best practices and and then They can be picked I'll a cart I guess for whoever's needing them So if you're implementing great, you're building the certification cool You're an ops team and trying to look for something whatever it is We're trying to build the set right now But we can come back to like Some specific ambitions Oliver and that when we look at that discussion But so if you're coming in the scene of working group and you're saying Where do I contribute? There's been comments about this like how do I how do I know where to get started or where? Can I write stuff? I Think we probably need to put more in a like a getting started or could be a link off the contributor Or maybe a section in the contributor Guide because this stuff will get lost and it might have been mentioned like a year ago But nobody knows oh we have this so that's what this is about so where can you contribute the best practice proposals? Adding for any of this you can get in an ad and that might be async Write in to content. That's there Wherever it is or you can reach out to someone if you want to have like a pairing session working session on stuff I've been doing that. I'm open just reach out to me Other people are as well So best practice proposals the use cases and then I think an important thing is We do want supplemental content. That's why I'm calling it supplemental so the exceptions Implementation examples tell you point out a lot of the stuff where it's okay. How do I actually start using this in practice? I Like the concept, but how do I use it? So we need that content I don't think we're gonna have one document that has everything It's probably gonna be a whole set and then it'll expand and someone will go. Oh, here's my environment So all of that stuff is good And if that's where you're passionate or where you're needing to fix things then we want that That's all related to the context of why something would be useful and how to use it and then general updates You know, if there's people are coming in a lot of y'all have Contributed this way in making things clearer in the documentation Use cases everything else Spelling grammar is always important and then I think a big one is reference links So we're talking about a lot of stuff but being able to go and read like where did it come from those resource links and stuff so When you drop them in to the notes Or the chat let's try to make sure that they get somewhere like longer term so that everyone else can go and Read that and learn So Writing up Existing content so Whether you want to draft Work on a draft that's existing or new content We want to add the references to the external content. So if it's just something that's Idea that's fine probably better for the discussion board, but eventually we need to have enough references that It's clear that this is a good practice or that it's a common use case So that we can make decisions on does this work for me like how does it apply? and Don't feel that you have to do new content So trying to make sure that's understood if if you feel like you can contribute But maybe not start from scratch then we can expand on existing stuff And it may turn out that it's expands enough that we need to split it off into something new And that would tie in with this likes Anything where we feel like a purpose or something as large enough in itself that we can dig into Probably should be split off and then we have smaller chunks that we can complete Opening pull requests of course to add new or two existing content so then I think one of the other items and I see your comment here tell on hack and day is like where can we work so they the github repo itself you can put pull requests in against existing content and the repo itself and We can continue to iterate on that But modifying or doing a direct commit Let's just say you bring up the editor in github Then unless someone's sitting with you or you're doing like a zoom share then probably that modification is going to be you working solo Now you can do I do zoom and whatever else so we can do that But if you want actual collaborative editing then we want to support that and we've created different places to do that so in the the telecom user group the CNC f-drive we actually have a a sub folder called CNF working group and You can drop content in here. So this could be the supplemental content new use cases whatever else and This will be accessible to whoever Has a link to that and you can modify that and We have a hack and D. This is a like a whole Area with different Docs if you're if you're like using markdown For those who aren't familiar with hack and D. It's a markdown editor and it allows Multiple people to modify at the same time You have this split view so you can see what's rendered versus what you're editing or go straight edit and You should have access Automatically if you don't and then there may be a setting that's changed. I can check that out or I Can always add use directly if you send an email. I can Add your email address so that you can access the hack and D so I guess for right now just If if you want access and you don't have access then ping myself I'll try to make sure like a Jeffrey and Ian and and some other folks also have Can make sure and add people but you should have a capability to go in there and work You feel free to go use whatever you want I'm just talking about stuff that we've tried to set up for the group So if if if you're wanting to use another markdown editor or some other sharing Google Docs type thing by all means do it. We've used it's Diagram Lee had a different name. I don't remember what that was. I'm just gonna click go here Yeah, whatever This is a Diagramming software that supports collaborative editing draw IO. I think that was what it was originally called now It's diagram Lee, but you can if you want something besides say a Google presentation then you can You can go into that and Share these and this actually can go into I don't know if you saw it Kind of went there quickly, but you can have it saved to Google Drive So you could actually select like the scene of working group drive and then have The diagram saved right in there and then they can be opened and modified by other people easily But you can also just upload, you know like a if you're Doing something and Dia or whatever you're using you can do it there as well and then of course the The other thing is the get up discussions so We can keep adding here and I think Tal one of the things that you were promoting was That the discussions were not lost like the importance of the discussions happening in the PRs Would continue like if people are wanting to talk about stuff So bringing those over into the get-up discussions so that they can be ongoing We also slack in the working group and stuff, but for a collaboration. I think the hack and day the get-up discussions and then being able to do any type of Google Document or whatever in the Google Drive would be the main ones. So that's really it I just wanted to bring these back up because I think some of them haven't been mentioned and you know Over six months that they're there and if you just didn't happen to catch them You may not even realize that they're available any questions comments Anything else? Yeah, I just to say, you know, we have a lot of ways to Contribute and to collaborate But it's kind of up to all of us to take the initiative and start generating content Eventually, it'll be boiled down. We believe to you know, very useful documents that consumers of this working group would be be would be able to use but Yeah, I think we just have to start doing it It's a note for everybody including myself Yeah, I agree. If you look at something like 12-factor apps it didn't start Like this this is not what they had when it got started I don't maybe if we could dig in an old archive or something but This is expanded like you now have the diagrams and I would say some use cases and other content here that you didn't have when this came out But that's where we are right now and I think if if you Feel that you can't have you don't have the time or whatever else whatever reason To have a completed thing where you say I'm going to write up something that totally covers concurrency in a way that Everyone is going to be satisfied. That's not what we're trying to do right now. We're trying to get any content and Build towards this will eventually get towards something where we can say this this concept We're happy with where it is today and so let's say yes We can tell people we like that one and then move on we may come back and update I know personally from looking at like the 12 factor apps and some other places where they have things listed Over the years they'll get updated But right now what we're saying is anything that you can contribute and try to help add to Will help us move towards that goal and that's what's important And exactly what you're saying tell just we're we're wanting people to move forward and if you want help Then if you'd like to do something, but don't know where to get started like here's some ideas, but reach out to me if you are Jeffrey Ian or any of us and just say what where would be a specific area, you know That you could work and do some contributions All right, let's move on to Oliver your Ambitions high-level roadmap Yeah, I mean this well, let me just say two things one is this is fairly old this as you see it's March So I had just at the time when we were you know, we were already several months into it Just trying to for myself think about you know, I think even bill was you know early days We were saying well, maybe by the summer or you know by cube calm We might have you know our first set of best practices So, you know, I was just kind of trying to play out with the idea of something lightweight, you know Just to try to give us some some some goals I'm not sure that the right way to do this is to have a you know I think we need to either agree or disagree to have one and then if we do maybe we work on it you know offline because I Think it'll be more efficient way of working But you know the first question is then really do we feel like we are there others who feel like we need this as well? This there's a second part to it as well for myself at least And and and daily you just walked us kind of through all the different ways that we can help and contribute I'm not sure if it's just myself, but I sometimes start to lose the picture of for example We know we've been very focused on generating use cases. We have some use cases that are now, you know been approved and You know, I don't know how many more we need, right? I know we need more. I don't the point is What at what point do we are we able to start to extract? Will we know it when we get there and everybody starts to feel comfortable? Or is it something that we can already say today that we're gonna need at least 20 30 use cases before we can Start to extract so it's a little bit of what are we trying to achieve? but it's also how are we getting there with you know, just a High-level view for people who may not really fully follow The steps that were that were taken. Does that make sense? Makes sense to me Let other people respond Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me as long I like that you called it ambition Rather than roadmap maybe because it's going to be evolving What we don't need is a gun to our head telling us, you know, get out those best practices by this state To an extent it will be ready when it's ready, but you know, we we need to work towards something So we can keep this You know, I kind of wish sometimes we have so many ways to contribute But I feel like the the most natural way for us at this stage is something like a wiki, you know it could be Google Docs or hack and D or other things but You know, this isn't a discussion, but to an extent it should be linked You know up front so anybody coming to the work group will immediately be able to see The roadmap as long as you make it clear that this is the roadmap is something that's evolving and You know, we can we can keep updating it when we feel we're not going to reach that target right now So we'll just move it forward Yeah, I agree with you Tal as well. I mean it and I Was struck as you can see even when I wrote I was like, you know struggling to recall us a road map and ambition I mean the point is just to simply say Why am I here? What am I trying to accomplish until we change it? You say, you know, okay q1 q2 q3 This is what we're hoping for and we can you know, we can always adjust it But I think it at least allows us to also reflect, you know, wow We were really ambitious, but we didn't get to where we wanted to be alright. No problem You know, did we learn anything from that great, you know Move on and try to be you know, try to use every lesson learned to the for the next step My key here or the key word for me is this should be lightweight, right? I mean, it's it's not meant to do anything else than help us navigate Yeah, and to the point you made Olivia earlier that you know When when are we actually gonna have enough use cases to do something? Well, we already do I think even one use case should be enough that the trick is Somebody needs to take the initiative to say, okay I'm gonna tackle this and start writing the best practices for for this use case and Maybe we're just being timid about starting with it, but I think I'm I'm always in favor of just start sneezing things on paper Just just start writing nothing is set in stone um part of the reason why it was Not so happy with the github process of writing things that everything feels just very formal and You know, you do a pull request and then there are different people proves There seems to be the the barrier of contribution So far it's been a little bit difficult but if you know If you feel you have something to say about a use case you can just start a Google map a Google doc And add a lot of to-dos in it. Nothing has to be You know, I don't think any of us is expecting like a complete thing like the 12 factor Website that Taylor saw right now, right? We're gonna work towards it But we we we should nothing is stopping us from starting it right now with just one use case It's just a matter of somebody saying, okay, this is something I know a lot about and I want to give it the opening shot It's a great opportunity to you get to really influence kind of the the ongoing discussion on that topic, right, so Yeah, an example I give you know the work I did on CNF operators, right? I definitely need to follow up on that and and turn it into something more integrated with our work, but It helped me a lot just to start writing and give me the the topics, you know the The list of points which which are could be pain points could be Points of discussion of interests of controversy We need more of these opening shots, that's what I feel right so I I guess tell you kind of said it as far as the When can we start? I'll expand on that for my viewpoint the It's this is where Any of the contributions are wherever you want. There's nothing where we're saying in in this group You must contribute in this area. So if you feel like Where you can contribute is more use cases we can keep adding use cases and if there's a use case where You're identifying a best practice and we can write that and that's related to you know tells saying you saying We it's when people step up to that so that's Interest, you know need whatever whatever's driving you for that if you feel like it should happen But you can't figure it out That would be where maybe you can reach out The principle of least privilege was the the reason why Ian and I ended up going this path is we had There was a pretty big set of discussions Already Applying principle of least privilege and we felt like we could start here. So there's a discussion around this and and There's best practices that are listed Around around the principle of least privileges. There's already practices that are out there and including the one that we ended up putting forward so the Don't use root in containers as a general best practice that's already out there so something that we could talk about and we feel like Getting to this list of things is What's important in our mind right now? But that doesn't mean that we want to stop use cases or anything So Oliver as far as like how do we get to something? I think is you're wanting to it seems like you're wanting to Get to something past a Set of you know like thousands of use cases which could be interesting, but maybe not Getting to a usable a directly usable goal. So that's kind of my driver as well And I think with Ian thinking about this and talking through As well as reaching out to other folks like what could we do so it seemed like the least privilege As far as Ambitions or the words around this roadmap so ambition sounds good, and I think we could do milestones We could have like an ambition to reach a milestone within a certain time period, but actually Like even with the milestones we could literally use like the the github Let me see. I think I got to go to issues. We could use the milestones There we go. I don't know who created this but 2021 best practices so If we're like we have this no route I don't know if there's an issue for it, but you can add them and we could say as a this is 2021 best practices, but we could you literally have like a q3 and I I personally am have a goal of Trying to move forward some set of some number of best practices in q3 and q4 To have them in place with enough content that we go. All right, we understand it maybe they don't all go through but I would like to get a set and They may or may not come from existing use cases. There may be new use cases that are added Just based on my experience and Then tal you were mentioned so this is kind of a side from Goals, but how do we move forward on stuff? And I I definitely don't just go into github and go I must follow the structure. So my just myself tell I I Don't find it works for me as far as like I guess the creative process and And sourcing a lot of information. I need to have it a little less structure It's fine to have some categories but the When I'm working by myself or collaborating with someone else like Ian or whoever we get on and start working on something and This is the hack and a day that's had several iterations if I go back through the version it started with less of the categories and then we started putting more and more and moving stuff Around but the original Document and we're actually going to end up with a Document I think that'll be added to the this drive Was a lot looser so tal I think this would go with what you're talking about where we're saying Okay, so why would you want these privileges? So this is a little bit? I'm giving you all a little bit of the view of how it works for me. It doesn't have to work for you and Tals, you know talked about how he's worked through stuff But whoever you know y'all on this call or listening later if you have another way of a workflow. That's fine, you know the The github proposal format that we have for best practices is kind of a finished format But that's not the working process. That's when we get there We want to try to hit some stuff that we think is important as a group But getting to there can be all over. So this would be in we I can highlight here. So why would you want least privilege at all and starting to talk about this? So this is just more of conversational. This doesn't have to do with those categories Different ways of helping well, you can see here privilege containers. So this is not the root in containers this is a different topic that popped up and Tal and and I don't know if Victor's on this call I don't see him, but other folks have pointed out like what about this and this and those are all different things that are related to Privilege, I'm sorry least privilege. So that principle of least privilege. So root in containers would be one of them Access to the Kubernetes API and what you can do there. Frederick has talked about The different things you can do with like net admin and how you can affect the whole network and potentially cause massive problems so these are a lot of topics and We've had a lot of different conversations. This is how we're working on it. You may need a literal whiteboard whatever it doesn't really matter that You can do whatever on that and then eventually You start just like if you're doing a draft and you have an outline and then you start working through it We eventually started dropping in more of an organization and that was the hack and D and then Eventually we felt like okay, we have have this hack and D to a point where we can put a pull request in So that's kind of process and Definitely open to Tal I want to encourage people to the workflow that you have to get to something Just use it. Whatever will help you to get to a point where we have Contributions is totally fine and I think back to the the ambitions would be that the high level for me Oliver would be You know q3 is coming up close, but I would like to get a couple more proposals in at least have them going through Probably around least privilege Handling state in a cloud native way is definitely interesting. So I'm open to whatever but I'd like to have some more privilege proposals in place and If a new use case comes in great, that's fine if we go and look at existing use cases and start Extracting the practices as you were saying Oliver. That's fine. But in q3. I'd like to see and And you know this could be a milestone like I said and and the github where we say what you know three practices Could be a milestone and then we have another set or whatever, but yes for having some milestones and an ambition and then Backing up what Tal said as far as like having we don't want to have People feel you're forced to do this and you must ask time off or whatever that's you know, it's we're trying to balance where we're contributing in this open community We want encouragement to meet a goal, but knowing like We're we're all open to contribute or not Would I am something like I don't and we can always list this in a doc. I don't think we have like milestones and We don't have a ambitions roadmap or any type of doc right now in the Repo You know, it's in the closest thing we have is in the governance saying that the coaches can help build a roadmap but the there is no actual thing listed, but What do you think about starting with something like a milestone and we start dropping issues and here? Oliver and then potentially have we could write up something like a 2021 ambitions, I don't know what that doc would look like, but we could write something up like that Yeah, that makes sense. All right anyone else. I have one idea that you know, we have a lot of participants here some that don't speak out speak out quite as often but Maybe everybody can give themselves homework to to pick some kind of contribution It could really be anything as you said it could be Fixing grammar or things on existing documents or commenting or contributing to discussions actually just going to the discussions page choosing something that You have something to say about and and responding is a contribution. I feel because they do move us forward It's easy to get lost in the discussions. I think but they're still there for reference, right? Whenever we end up working as somebody for example decides to go to hack MD and start working on You know BGP issues. Well, here's a discussion that they can immediately reference and actually continue commenting on, you know, the discussions Don't have to stop. They can continue growing in a way Yeah, they have advantages and disadvantages for sure, but it's My point is any way that anybody can contribute. I think We should we should all agree to do so Contribute in the way that makes best sense to you and please reach out if you feel like you're blocked on Contributing and and don't know where to get started or I'm sure everybody here Has experience that would be beneficial That would be beneficial to hear about in some way So just reach out. All right. Well, if there's nothing else we can Stop here. I'll give it a minute. Does anyone have any last? Last minute things I'd like to talk about or Comment on all right give your ten minutes back for your day Thanks, everyone. Thanks. See you next week. Bye