 Thank you for joining me as I sit down with Pastor David and Marie Rosales from Calvary Chapel, Chino Valley, as we discuss marriage, raising children, and managing difficulties that arise in the family. We're ready to begin, so let's talk marriage. Pastor David and Marie, thank you so much for joining us, and today I want to talk about friendship and marriage. So my first question to you both would be, is it important to have a friendship in our marriages? Yes, absolutely. I don't know how you can survive without friendship in your marriage. That's something that Dave and I had from the beginning when I first met him, was we began a friendship and then it developed into marriage down the road. We became best friends. I mean, you can't have a relationship with someone you don't like and don't care for, and so we like to romanticize our relationships and say, oh, I just deeply love, but love has various aspects and expressions, right? And so one of the things that Marie and I would firmly say to any who are listening is develop your relationship on a friendship basis first, because Marie and I would talk, we would visit, share our hearts, and in friendship I was safe from jealousies and rivalries and things like that. I mean, when I first looked at Marie as somebody that I wanted to spend time with and be with, it was because I enjoyed her. It was because I liked visiting with her and she would laugh and I discovered she has a silly sense of humor. I discovered where the things were that I could say that would make her laugh and I enjoyed watching her laugh when I would tease with her, things like that. All of that's friendship. All of that is simply having a sense of just enjoyment of one another, enjoying each other's company, having things in common. And so I would think that the foundation of a love relationship and a good marriage is not simply that you have this deep love for this person, but that you also like them. You like being with them, talking to them, and the various things that are expressions of friendship. So yeah, Marie and I, from the very beginning, I knew I could like her and from there, like began to morph into or grow into loving her. So yeah, friendship to us is the key. I think a lot of times people rush into it thinking that I got to be in a relationship now without developing that friendship. There can be a danger in not developing that friendship first because that's when you get to figure out little quirks about one another, the things that you develop. As you mentioned, Marie, developing into a relationship, which is important. So Marie, I want to ask you this question. Well, let me tell you something else. And friendship, you just, with friendship, you need to spend time talking to the person. That's how you get to know them. And that's how things develop into marriage or dating relationship. But it's through just knowing the person that you get to know who the person is and what they like. And it takes the pressure off. Oh yeah, they do enjoy it. Yeah, it does. It takes it. And I think, like what you said, Pastor, it takes away the jealousies and it just makes room for getting to know one another, which is important. And then it develops into something longer and something more serious. Marie, one of the questions I'd like to ask you is, what does friendship in a marriage look like from a woman's perspective? Well, you have to like the person. I enjoy being with somebody, the person you're with. That to me, I knew that he made me laugh. He made me feel comfortable. You need to have, you need to feel comfortable with the person. First of all, too. And for me, that really developed into friendship. He would tease me. It was a real sweet time in our life. I'm just meeting a guy like my husband. I didn't feel like I had to be aware of him at all. He was just easy to talk to. And we enjoyed conversations. We just talked a lot. And we do. We still do. We still enjoy being together, of course. So you would say that friendship that even after all these years of marriage is still present with each other? Yes. Is there from a male's perspective, pastor, or is there a difference in what a friendship in a marriage looks like from a male's perspective? Oh, absolutely. I would say that friendship has different dimensions, different applications, obviously, for a husband and a wife, for Marie and me. She is my deepest friend that I have in the face of the earth, who is female. There are certain things that a man and a woman in their friendship are going to have airmarks of a male perspective and a female perspective. So we'll define our relationship based on who we are as I as a man and Marie as a woman. Therefore, I know how to craft my relationship with her. What kinds of things to speak to her about, how to speak to her, things that she can hear easily and understand. Other things that I know that because they're maybe male oriented or things that a friend who's a buddy would probably understand that more. It's kind of like everybody knows that when you have babies, when Marie and I had our first baby when my daughter, Krini, was born, there were things that Marie, when she was pregnant, would go through that I as a man had no clue about. I didn't understand what was going on in her body, the changes that were taking place. I didn't understand her emotions. I didn't understand the things that she as a woman went through. And so it was other women, women who'd been there before, women who'd been pregnant that could speak to her on that woman level. So there are things that I can't speak to her about because I don't have experience in those areas. And she's the same with me. There are things that I as a male feel that my girl wouldn't understand. What she may look at for me, for example, is you're so driven and competitive to another man that something another man would understand because we have a different role and we have a different way of doing what we do, how we're doing things that we're doing, why we want to do. These are different. We have different perspectives. And so I may speak to Marie about anything, but when she says, oh, you know, and I can tell you, I'll give you an anecdote about this, you know, when she was pregnant with Corinne and we were driving on the freeway coming home, she turns to me and she says to me, I'm going to vomit. You know, she was, she was, what do you call mama? I was pregnant. Well, I was nauseous. Morning sickness. So I'm driving her and she says you need to pull over because I'm going to vomit. I think she's kidding. Yeah, I had heard the stories of morning sickness and all of that, but I thought those were, well, you know, I'm dumb. What do I know? I think that's just something you have in movies or comedies. I really, I didn't know that was real. And she says, you need to pull over. Now we're on the freeway going 70 miles an hour or whatever. And I look at her and I say, we're almost home. She says, if you don't pull over, I will vomit all over the car. Well, I'm not one who wants that. So I still remember pulling over to the side of the road while she opens the door and vomits. And I didn't understand that at all. I had no clue what she was going through. Now another woman all she needed to do if the woman had had a baby is to turn to her and say, I've got some morning sickness, better pull over. They would have pulled over, right? They say no. When Marie gave birth to Joseph and we went into the hospital there at Pomona Valley Hospital and we went in and Marie's walking in as our third child and the nurse says to her, because Marie looks a lot younger, looked a lot younger than her actual age. You know, Marie's just very beautiful woman, very, very preserved and beautiful. And so she walks in and the woman nurse says to her, can I help you? We're in the emergency. And Marie says, yes, I'm about to give birth. I'm going through contractions. Okay, honey, I'll never forget the nurse looking at her and kind of trying to mother her. Okay, honey, is this your first? And Marie goes, no, it's my third. And the woman says, then you would know, let's get you in, you know? So those are the things that women know about other women that a man would not know. So when it comes to friendship, there are certain realities of the levels of and kinds of friendship that a man can have with his wife that are different because of experience and understanding than he would have with a buddy. So I can, I say, Marie is my dearest friend on the planet. There's nobody deeper in my relationship. But I also qualify it by saying she's my deepest woman friend. Because from a woman's perspective, she can understand so much about me. And from a man's perspective, I can only understand so much about her. But when it gets into areas of biology and things like that, because of our anatomy and our differences, I won't understand them. And so when Marie began to nurse Korean, you know, as a new mama, she's having just, you know, difficulties learning about that. And I think she's going through, we happen to have a woman who who taught young ladies about nursing and what to expect and all of that. And she just put Marie under her under her wing and walked her through the different stages that Marie needed to learn as it came to being able to nurse her babies and things like that. So so when it comes to friendship, there are different kinds of friendship and different levels of friendship. But in marriage between Marie and me as a man and a woman, we've discovered the things that are common to us, the things that we like about each other, the things that, you know, I've always been impressed with Marie's drive. Marie was a college student. She was getting her degree when I met her. And I worked with her, helped her sometimes, not because I'm such a helper, to be honest with you, but because I wanted to be of help to her. So I helped her to write her papers and stuff for her term paper for her degree. She got a Bachelor of Science degree. And I helped her with that and all. And because I like education, and I like studying, I like talking about those things. So those are things in common. You know, we like the same music. Those are things in common. You know, we like the same foods. Those things in common. We have the same cultural background. Those are things in common. So all these things that are common to us, just tied into our relationship. And we first liked each other. I like to visit with her. I like to hear from her, what are you learning in school? How to go on the job today? What's going on in your life? I was interested in those things, not because we were dating, because for guys, usually all those questions are in the first or second date. And after that, they don't want to talk about it anymore. But I remained interested. And that's an aspect to this day. So, you know, we'll wake up every day. We have no kids in the house. We're empty nesters for a while now and all. And so, you know, I come into the offices at a certain time every day. And so, Marie and I try to make our schedule so that we have us time. So we'll go and get a cup of coffee and sit down and watch the news. And these are things that have developed over the many years that we've been together. That we know that what she were not here and I were not here would ruin her entire, her entire routine and how she sees life and what she does. And all of that is based on our friendship. He's my best friend. The compatibility. Well, let me ask you guys this. For those who may be watching that are younger and maybe not married and they're looking for that friendship just as we're describing between you two, which seems that had a lot of culture and everything was a lot of it was common for one another. What happens when there's a couple or a boyfriend or girlfriend that are wanting to become friends? And then have you ever heard of the word friend zone? They've been friend zoned where there's this risk of, yeah, I'll be her friend or he'll be my friend. And then they get to this place where their friendship now supersedes any type of relationship they may have. And there's no boyfriend girlfriend relationship developed. And I've heard of this before of people becoming, oh, he friend zoned me or she friend zoned me where they become so French, they have a friendship that only stays as a friendship. And I see that a lot with or I hear that a lot with younger men and younger women who are, who may like somebody and they become friends. And now they get to this place where there's nothing else but a friendship. If you were to speak to those people, how would you develop that into a longer lasting relationship? I think that you can have people in your life that are always going to be friends, you know, in our case, for example, Marie's got some very dear friends, you know, Jeanette Walls, for example, from upland Debbie Renshaw from Clay Allen Washington and others. I don't want to start going through a list of those those that I consider to be my friend too. But those two are are on the top of the list. And I can be their friend, you know, but I realize as a male, again, that friendship goes only so far. And so from a married, married perspective, there are always limits like that in relationships and all. And so you can enact them. Now, when I was single, it's been a long time since I was single. It was a little different because now I can only speak from my own experience in this. I think women, and this is my opinion, this is not some Bible verse and forgive me for just giving an opinion. But I suspect that women are geared differently than men. I suspect that Marie could be a friend with but with guys as like a friend as a buddy with no interest at all. And I know that's true with her. Because when I, my brother told me, I want you to meet Marie, but David, if you're if you're a jealous sort, she's not for you. Because Marie's got a lot of buddies, a lot of friends. She's a very friendly woman. And I found that out the day I took her on a second date, not the first. Well, actually the first date, she's real friendly with my friend Nick and everything. And I can see I like people like that. I like friendly people. And especially I want them to be friends with my friends. So I wasn't ever threatened by that. And as we develop deeper relationship, you know, I discovered that other guys who were her friends, you know, they were just that they were, how are you? How's it going? Very pure and very nothing going on. Guys are a little bit different. Because guys, this is my opinion, but in experience over my long lifetime now, not that many guys are able to be a buddy with a woman. They just start because it's been said every woman becomes beautiful at 3am in the dark. You know, and then that's a male thing. That's a male thing. It's very, very true. You know, and there are guys who after a while start discovering some things about that girl that they like and then find intriguing and find interesting and then become they begin to think of them as desirable. You know, so what at one time was like a friendly woman like Marie, how are you becomes a flirtatious woman that I become interested in. And even women that initially may not be attractive in the way that you see women as attractive. If you spend enough time with them and you visit with them and they begin to disclose the treasures of their heart and deposit them in you and tell you how they feel and what they were like when they're growing up in the hurts that they felt. A lot of times you get confused. You can get confused as to why is she telling me these things and why is she depositing these treasures in me and I'm getting to know her and now I'm getting to understand her and before you know it, it's very possible that from a man's perspective, she becomes more like somebody that he begins to pursue because he saw things in her that he likes that are attractive whereas she is just looking at him as being one of her girlfriends. And I've seen that. I have kind of felt that where I've been confused before I met Marie. I had a young lady named Mary Lou that was a very dear friend to me, a buddy in many ways, but she got saved. When I got saved, I took her to church to Calvary Chapel and she gave her heart to the Lord and before you know it, she's treating me friendlier. And I actually had asked myself, am I getting interested in this woman because she had changed in the way she was beginning to speak to me and treat me and all of that so you can get confused. So in relationships, especially marital relationships, I don't mistrust any of Marie's girlfriends. None of them are after me. None of them are interested in me, but it's always been a wise thing for me to never get to know them on a deeply personal one-on-one basis. It's always been best for me to never know too much about them and to not be alone with them, not because they're going to be pursuing me. They wouldn't. These are all good women that Marie's friends, but to safeguard me from any kind of confusion that I could have had. I don't believe that I could have that kind of confusion now, that confusion now, but in the earlier days when I was a younger man, it could be something I could have been confused by and there were times when I had friends, wives who started showing an interest in me in ways that her friendship became a little threatening to me. So over time, you discover those things and so for me as a man and I say to every man, keep your distance and don't be depositing your treasures in somebody else. Don't be opening up and sharing how you feel and what's going on because sometimes women, their maternal instinct may kick in a bit and I'll use that in another stereotype that people like to argue about, but I believe it's true and I think it's there. This sense I want to mother this person, I want to help this person and before you know it, she can begin to see things in that guy that she likes that her husband does not have and before you know it, it develops into something that's no longer platonic and can move into something that is a temptation and you like Joseph, you flee temptation. I would never want to ever be in a position that I would ever have as a man, the discomfort of having a woman confused about how I feel about her. So I'm very careful with those things and Marie, I've never had to worry about being careful about those things. She's just who she is and she's quite obviously nobody else's girl except mine and so and that's how that works but yeah, I would say especially to the young people, be aware of that because see again, you're developing a friendship with a young girl and friendship is very often a first step towards a romantic feeling. You find more and more about them that you like, more and more things about them that are attractive, more things that begin to check those boxes in your mind. I've always wanted a girl who is this way and likes these kinds of things and reads these kinds of books and laughs at this kind of humor and before you know it, you can get confused when she's just sharing who she is. She's not interested in you at all and yeah, that's part of the confusion. With that being said, what is the dangers of having, well let me ask you guys this, is it recommended or from your perspective to have close friendships with the opposite sex as a married couple? I don't know, do you mind if I answer that one? Yeah, I want you to answer it. Yeah, okay. I don't know, you know, we'll use the word close. I think every believer ought to have a close love and friendship with other believers. That's part of being a believer. I think that I would believe that the deep love that you can have for your sister and the Lord is what bonds you together in the body of Christ and so there are certain things that we ought to share and we ought to share them because we belong to each other. But a lot has to do with your perspective. You know, how do you relate to that person? And for me, I relate to her as my sister. So you don't have lust for your sister. You don't have inappropriate questions or thoughts in your mind about your sister if you're normal, if you're a natural man. I mean, a man who's got unnatural desire for his sister needs a lot of help because that's just, that's wrong. It's sinful. It's incestuous, right? I mean, that's a fact. At least it used to be, now there are people who are saying that it's normal, you know, but then again, that the world today is so torn up and twisted. But for a Christian, you know, that is my sister. How do I treat my sister and the Lord? And what barriers are naturally there between them and me? And then, say you have a friend whose wife is very sweet. A lot of friendships, John, you're old enough to know this, your best friends very often marry girls that you would have married. You know, they're sweet. Because your best friend and you have a lot of things in common. And so, you know, he ended up with a girl that you probably would say, nah, she's a doll. I love her if she's got a good relationship. So that can mean that you could be attracted to the same woman that he is if you're not careful. And so, you know, that's why I think the writer of Prophet Solomon is writing and he says, you know, take care of your own marriage, take care of your own wife, you know, don't be chasing after somebody else's, don't be foolish, just, you know, develop your relationship with your own. So I found that out a long time ago that if I concentrate on the one who is supposed to be my dearest friend, then everything else will flow behind that. So I have no desire for somebody else's wife. I'm not to covet another man's wife. Scripture teaches us. And the closeness that I have with my friend's wives is a sister closeness that I still, after all of these years, John, I've had friends like I mentioned Randy's wife, Jay, and my friend dad's wife, I've known them over 40 years, you know, I've known them over 40 years. But to this day, I can tell you, we neither, if Debbie and I are talking, we like to have people around us just because we guard. And it's not like, hey, Debbie, do you think we need some people around us? It's not that. It's just a natural insight that no, we can be close with others around us. I will share openly whatever I think is wise to share with my dear friends if her husband's there. But if her husband's not there, I don't share anything. I don't deposit my treasure, those hidden things in my heart. I don't treasure, I don't deposit those in anybody, except my wife. Or I will say a certain aspect of something, if the husband is there, and other people are there as witnesses, you know, as part of the conversation, I will do that. But I will never sit down with Jay and say, oh, when I was 12 years old, I found these things, I would never do it, because that's not something she needs to know. That's something my wife would know, because those are the deeper things of my soul. Those are the things that I should share only with the person I trust with those things. And I know that Jay doesn't want to hear that, or Debbie doesn't want to hear that, or whomever. They don't want to hear about me unless Marie's right next to me, and their husband's there. And then I might say, I remember when I was 12, and I've told you this, and that's how I do it. But you know how it is, if you've had a girl across from you, you're drinking a cup of coffee, and for a moment your eyes missed up with tears and emotion, and what's wrong, David? Oh, I was just remembering when I was a kid how that's where danger begins. That's where it really does. Because it becomes so subtle, but then sometimes an agenda can be pushed, and it can be very dangerous. You have to be very careful. You don't open yourself up to anybody that can become confused about what you're saying. You know, I've got a woman, I've got my woman, she knows everything about me, and I don't need to tell other people those things, and just tell her. So those are the things that you have for your wife that are reserved for your wife only? I think that's important, and not being able to give your treasures as you were mentioning to other people, they have no business doing that. That can be very dangerous. It is dangerous. That's how failure starts. It's when that woman starts getting confused. And any guy who's a hunter knows that. I mean, you can find the weakness of that woman within two or three conversations. You already know what she needs to hear, what you could say, how to go about it, what to flatter her about, what to ask you. Any hunter knows that, and before I was saved, I learned that as a kid. I learned the things she wanted to hear, and when I met Marie, and she didn't like to hear this, but I'll say it anyway, but I met Marie because she's so open and so innocent. I immediately said, I'm going to have to protect this girl because she's vulnerable to, she could be, not that she was, she could be, and my protective interest came in almost immediately. I thought, she's the kind of, this woman needs to be treasured and protected because she's that good. She's that good a person. And guys see that as a prize, and they go after that. And I knew that immediately. I knew it immediately. And so that's part of our love is, I've always had a protective love for her. That's a daddy's here for to protect you because I don't want her taken advantage of. And I knew that she was sweet and innocent enough that somebody could do that. I felt it. I felt that, maybe I was wrong, but I felt it. That's how I felt about her. So I'm aware of that. And any man, any man, I'm telling you in any man talking to a woman for a little while, I'll give you an example, can learn the weaknesses. I was many years ago talking to Marie knows about this many years ago, talking to a woman, just, just, you know, somebody I thought I knew, to be honest with you, I thought I knew. And I was speaking to her, and, and I said something very casually. And I was a younger man, much younger man at that time. This has been 35 or more years ago. It's been a long time ago. But I said something to her. I had just read in one of my books that I was preparing a study and, and this person made a comment and said, beautiful women sometimes it's sometimes difficult for a beautiful woman to lead because those who are not as beautiful could resent her for that. You know, and there's truth to that. I think that's human thing. You know, sometimes you see a very good looking guy up there in the pulpit and you're thinking, man, that intimidates me. I get, you know, I mean, that's human that and I, and I saw that and it's a casual truth. So I was talking to her and she said, yeah, I was trying to start a Bible study or a prayer meeting. I forget at my house, but she said I had one and, and, and nobody wanted to come back. So I had just read this information and I thought, well, why not share what I just was? So I said, well, you know, sometimes beautiful women have a tough time. She started her eyes well with tears. And I looked at her, her eyes well with tears. And immediately I said, she's neglected. Her husband is not telling her she's beautiful. She's vulnerable. And I don't want to judge her. God knows I don't. But I picked that up instantly. It was instant. And if I were a predator, you could just immediately I would have known how to go go about seducing her. Yeah, I knew it. I told Maria, I said, you know, a second or so and so today, I won't do that again. Because I said, you know, and it was a casual thing. And I tell Maria everything. So subtle. Yeah. But I'll tell Maria everything. I know we have no secrets. You know, I let her know, because I don't want her to be hearing from somebody else. I don't want this woman to say, you know, your husband told me I'm beautiful. So I told Maria, I said, you know, honey, I want you to know this happened. And I was uncomfortable. I want you to know that. That's how we safeguard our relationship is I tell her what she needs to know. And that was something I thought she needed to know. But saying that, I knew that I should not be with this person in any situation, opening up, because she's vulnerable. Even that, as you mentioned, at that point, if you're any man that's not walking with the Lord sees that that brother sister relationship is immediately it's gone. And now it's like predator mode, right? And I think, again, as you guys are mentioned, the safeguarding of your marriage and the friendship of it is so important. You know what, John, we have we have seen people who have had friendships with other couples, you know, couples having friendships with other couples and their children love each other and all that. We've seen people who get divorced and marry each other. We've seen that where, you know, this couple is going to ends up with this couple. To such a detriment to the family and these children, what they see. I wonder, where are they now? I mean, you know, they who was once living for the Lord, but their friendships became more than friendships. And and that developed into them leaving their families. We've seen more than one. Wow, that's how do you guard against that? How would you guard against that? Because, you know, it's in the casualness of friendship, you there's families where people get close to one another. But then again, I would never I will not hang around with anybody I'm uncomfortable with. I just don't. I will not. I will if I see a guy if a guy, which they don't. But if I saw a guy too friendly with Marie, I there would be some words, you know, there would be some words. And I would speak to Marie. And I would say to Marie, you know, honey, I'm just not comfortable. So we're not going to be with us. You know, because I avoid it. I do whatever I need to you guard, you guard your marriage, you know, for us. You know, when you're young, you say things when you're old, you understand. So, you know, when it says till death do us part, and you're 22 years old, and you know, what's death anyway, you know, your grandparents are still alive, you know, maybe a grand great grandparent, you know, you don't really at 2022 24, you really don't know those things. So Marine, I took vows, you know, when we were in our early 20s, and you know, we to death do us part. Well, now we're at that point where that's not that far from now. You know, it's just a fact that's not that far from now. We we from the beginning honored that vow, you know, this this, if you if you if you make a vow to God, and you don't intend to keep it, God will hold you accountable for that. You know, don't make a vow and then step away from it. I learned that very early in my life. And so when I made the vow to God that I cherish this woman here, I was serious. And and I never veered from that. So how do I safeguard myself? I keep my vow. You know, I promised my God and this woman that she would never have to worry about me. She never has. She's never had to. You know why? Because my heart is safely trusting in her and hers trusts in me. And so that that's what you do. You take your vow seriously, you know, and and you think of what would it do to everybody I know? Some people don't care, but I do. I don't want to ruin my children. I don't want to ruin. I didn't want to ruin my parents. I didn't want to ruin her parents. I didn't want to ruin her. I didn't want to ruin my brother's sisters. I didn't want to ruin children, friends, nobody because of my inability to to to do what I promised that I would do. I'm just not that kind of guy. So Marisa said, and we came from families, John, that it was till death do us part. And and her daddy loved her her mama till he went home. And my dad loved my mom and my mom loved my dad to her dying day. There was never another man. And that's how I was raised. And that's biblical. And that's what we're like. And so no, you I made the promise, you know, I will love you and cherish you and I will grow to love you more and more every day. And and that's true. And Maria and I are very open. We tell each other the truth. You know, I don't hide things from her. We know each other. We like each other. That's important to me. There's nobody else. Thanks again for tuning in. Let's Talk Marriage is a ministry of Calvary Chapel Chino Valley. If you've enjoyed this video, then please like and share it. We will see you again next week on another episode of Let's Talk Marriage.