 before we go into the discussion. I'm very excited to share that we have four words that have been recorded to kind of grant this conversation today. So the first one is recording with Rebecca Solnit, who's a writer, a historian and an activist. She's the author of many books on feminism, Western and Indigenous history, Popular Power, Social Change and Change and Insurrection. So in a second, we're gonna be playing the video of kind of recorded Words of Wisdom for all of us here. Just a quick flag and I guess apology in advance to anyone who's following on the interpretation channels. Recorded videos are quite difficult to translate live. We have amazing interpreters who are doing a stellar job, but just a flag that it might be a bit difficult just for those videos. So please bear with us on this. Okay, Chris, do you wanna play the forwards by Rebecca? Thank you. If you're a climate activist, you're my hero. If you're a climate activist, you're changing the world, but it might be hard to see how much you've changed it already and daunting to contemplate how much more there is to do. If you've been a climate activist for a while, you may feel bruised or disillusioned by years of encounters with the amoral indifference of banks, politicians, fossil fuel executives, or the people around you who are checked out. Please seek and cherish their opposite. The visionaries and idealists are truly committed who are springs from which we can all drink and perhaps you yourself can be the spring that quenches someone else's thirst. And remember that we have achieved so much, changed so much in the past 10 and 15 years, including the collective imagination which then was uninformed and unengaged and is now so different. You did this. The climate movement did this. You got the public across the world awakened to the largest and most complex problem we've ever faced. That was the biggest task of all. Climate chaos itself has also woken people up. The heat, the fire, the floods, the crop failures, the strange weather, but those dots needed a narrative connection and an answer as to what to do. We have it. At the Not Too Late Project, Thelma Young, Lutuna Tabua and I co-founded, we like to say we respect despair as an emotion, but not an analysis. You already know the scientists and energy systems engineers and climate strategists give us some margins of possibility in their appraisals of the situation. They tell us it is urgent, but not too late to choose the best path and steer away from the worst. Everything depends on us doing so, but still there is this grief, this fear, this sense of loss, this fury and frustration. I get it. I feel them too. Lately, some of the wisest among us have begun to speak more directly to these feelings. Adrienne Marie Brown makes the crucial point that we feel these things because we love. We love justice. We love the earth as the oceans and the cycle of seasons and the migrating birds or one particular place we know as a friend or refuge. We love the young who deserve a future. We love the future as the grounds for our own hope. Recognizing that underlying love is recognizing your own moral core and its strength. I think we sometimes believe these feelings will break us. One of the dismal things about the positivity culture around us is that it tells us to believe that these are signs of illness or failure or grounds for shame, that we're supposed to be happy all the time, like we were supposed to live someplace where it was never night and always sunny. There is no such place on earth and no such place in the human psyche. There is sorrow that will not break you, but there is denial that will flatten you out and make you a stranger to your own inner world and those of others. The insistence on endless cheer and false happiness is ultimately an insistence on shallowness. These other emotions open up your own depths to you and love takes root in the depths, the way that plants grow in the night. Merriam Kaba tells us that hope is a discipline, not hope is optimism, which assumes that everything will be fine and nothing is required of us. That's only the flip side of pessimism and despair, which likewise require nothing of us and buffer us from uncertainty, which somehow we dread and try to avoid by the most extravagant and ridiculous means. But uncertainty is unavoidable, if we're honest. The future is also a night in which we cannot see far. We can only navigate it by looking to the past, where we can count our victories and measure change and see how power grows and imagination shifts. There will be losses, there are losses behind us and ahead of us, but there are nevertheless things worth fighting for and will be every step of the way. The South Pacific climate activist Julian Aguad writes, part of our work as people who dare to believe that we can save the world is to prepare our wills to withstand some losing so that we may lose and still set out again anyhow. Hope for me is the recognition that the future will be in part what we make it in the present. With climate, this is very clear. Here we are in the decade of decision and the race to reduce emissions and transform not only literal power systems, but beliefs and values. We know the future is being decided by our actions in this dangerous turbulent present. When I'm hiking or traveling or just trying to meet a friend, I have a bad habit of losing faith just before I get there, losing faith that I'm on the right path and will arrive at my destination. Sometimes I ask for directions or check my phone or map only to look up and see that the person or place I sought is already within view. With larger issues we can give up, but I also sometimes look up and see that this new world of changed beliefs, changed histories, changed possibilities, changed relationships is well underway and we all have one foot in it. We are not starting, we are enlarging what has already begun. I believe we can arrive at our destination if we keep on going. It will not be perfect, it will not be everything. It will not be without loss. It will be necessary to learn to see in the dark. Chris, we've lost the sound. Sorry about that, I'll restart it. It's work. Can you hear it now? Because a lot of our work looks like nothing. The pipeline's not built, the money not invested, the forest's not. It's gone again. Sorry everyone. Yeah, it did seem to cut out. That's good now. I want to leave you with a reminder that we already live in the impossible world. Only a few decades ago, a world powered by renewables was impossible. These were weak, ineffective technologies then, but we are at the inception of an energy revolution, far greater than the industrial revolution and its steam power. Go back much further and women having the vote or slavery ending were wild, far-fetched things whose advocates were told they were naive dreamers of impossible things. I myself was born into a world in which gender inequality was universally the law and the custom and which to be queer was to be treated as criminal or mentally ill, or both, in which the civil rights movement was gathering power, but its achievements were all ahead of it. I am the same age as the Berlin Wall that seemed like it would stand forever before it came down in 1989 and the Soviet bloc began to crumble and the Cold War fade out. I am a year older than Rachel Carson's book Silent Spring, almost a decade older than the USA's Clean Air Act and the Environmental Protection Agency. The world I was born into no longer exists and the world in which we are now talking would have been unbelievable, even incomprehensible to people in 1961. The world you younger people will live in 60 years from now is likewise unimaginable, but unimaginable is not impossible. Looking back, we can see how stubborn idealism built the best parts of the world we are in now. Last week, I had a drink with Marianne Hitt from West Virginia who co-led the Beyond Coal campaign for a dozen years. She wrote when she wound up her time on that campaign that shut down 358 existing coal plants and prevented 200 more from being built. Coal provided half of our nation's electricity when I came to the Sierra Club a decade ago and we were told it was always going to be that way. Well, we're now getting less than 20% of our power from coal and this year the US will get more electricity from renewable energy than from coal for the first time ever. As we sat on San Francisco's waterfront, long V's of brown pelicans kept flying by and I thought of Rachel Carson because her 1962 book in testimony is why we banned DDT and why those powerful birds came back from the brink of extinction. Those pelicans say maybe, they say possibly. They say, don't stop. Thank you. Don't stop. Thanks, Chris and thank you, Rebecca. Even though she isn't here with us today, these are really powerful words to, I guess, send to the conversation we're gonna be having today. We're now gonna play another recorded contribution from Reverend Ratai Morgan who was an international professional singer for many years before completing studies at One Spirit Interfaith Seminary in New York and to become an ordained Interfaith Minister in 2009. She's the founder of Ecclesiast spiritual center, an interface spiritual community that meets monthly in Philadelphia and some of her most meaningful work is mentoring and counseling activist leaders, encouraging self-care and what she calls a spiritual toolbox to aid against despair, overwhelming depression. So I'm gonna leave it to Ratai now. Greetings and peace to each of you. I'm Ratai Morgan, Interfaith Minister and Singing Healer. This is an invocation and blessing for the work you are about to do together. So I invite you to take a deep breath and settle into the place where you are and listen as best you can with centeredness and groundedness. So, store. A big, big, big thank you to Ratai. And I hope this grounded you in this space and in the discussion that we're about to head into. So, yeah, I guess I just wanted to get started with maybe giving the floor to Hope and then to G. I'll let you introduce yourselves and maybe introduce the work that you do and how it's just how relevant it is to this question of how do we sustain activism in the long run? How can we be more emotionally resilient in our activism? So I'll let you say hi and then we'll get a bit more into the discussion. Hope, do you wanna get us started? Thanks very much. After these powerful introductions, it's difficult nowhere to start from, but I'll try. I'm Hope Chigudu and I'm an activist. I'm a feminist and I do recognize the importance of diversity and inclusiveness in the work that I do. I come from a tribe that believes in the power of the collective. We had to do any work. That's the collective is the way we ensure resilience. So whether women are fetching water, they'll do so with joy and they'll be singing. Whether they're walking together in their gardens, they'll be sharing various stories and they'll be really happy. So what is really not separated from self-preservation from resilience? Resilience not in the sense of bearing, ensuring that you survive. It's resilience in the same of collective energy. It's resilience in the form of collective well-being. It's resilience in the form of understanding that you're a vehicle. And if you're a vehicle, you need to be sustainable. You need to ensure that you check in to reorganize if there are programs. You check in to ensure that you're okay. So I come from that culture that ensures that... How? You don't resist all the things that we carry, the bugs that... Yes? Sorry, we lost you for a bit. Or maybe it was just me, but I think, yeah. We lost you for a little bit. The audio is a little bit choppy. But you seem to be back now, so let's... But can't hear me now. Yeah, we are. Yeah. So I'm saying that resistance is corrective because some of the things that we carry, we are not packed by us. They were packed by others. If you think about the homophobia, and you think about the pain of patriarchy, it was not packed by us. It was packed by many other people out there. So solving that pain cannot be individual. It has to be corrective. Can you hear me? Okay, so resilience is not about withstanding pain on your own. It's about understanding it and getting others support you, to work with you to understand what is happening. It's about grounding, being grounded as a corrective, being grounded in a way that enables you to think and do things together with and from resilience, self-initiatives, and because of that, when we talk about resilience, we are not talking about suffering quietly. We are not talking about bearing it all. We are talking about collective well-being that enables us to be stronger because we are many, that enables us to understand the origin of whatever is breaking us, fragmenting us. So when we try to come together, bringing back the self from all the different fragments that have happened because of what we experienced, we do it together as a group. We do it together in what we have come to our movement building. So we find that on a day-to-day basis, there are things that are very difficult because we deal with very difficult emotions. We deal with very difficult physical pains. We deal with very difficult intellectual disconnection. We deal with colonization. We deal with racism, homophobia, and many other things. But these things, we inherited them. And because we inherited them, we can't deal them as one person. We have to deal them as a movement. We have to create that kind of carry. The heavy load that one person cannot carry and see if there are some questions. Thank you, Hope. We did lose you a few times in that, but it seems to be working now without the video. Thank you so much for these, I guess, introducing words. Gee, do you want to go as well? Yeah, sure. Yeah, lovely to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Yeah, it's great to be in a space where people involved in activism are giving so much attention to these kinds of issues, questions about resilience, about sustaining ourselves. My interest in this kind of work goes back to 2009. Some of you were probably around then as well, right? Involving climate activism. You'll remember 2009 was the COP 15 in Copenhagen. And it was the following that event in December, it was, there was a big kind of crash, I think, for the climate movement. There had been a bit as there are today, the kind of narratives around, this is our last opportunity, last ditch chance to make a difference. And of course, that meeting, the COP 15 meeting ended with no important significant kind of movement forwards. And a lot of activists on the ground, a lot of organisers on the ground got really battered by the police in Denmark as well. And so we saw an enormous kind of hemorrhaging of talent at that time. We saw a lot of groups and organisations sort of dissolving, a real increase in the kind of internal kind of conflicts within groups. So many people, friends, colleagues of mine who left at that time feeling so demotivated, so despondent, you know, kind of really hopeless. And so the organisation I'm involved with, Ulex Project and the precursor to that, we started running a training group, we called them sustaining resistance. And we started using a very kind of participatory approach. It was like, well, how do we sustain ourselves? I mean, that's a question that each one of us has varied a very different answers to, right? There's no simple answer to that. But over a number of years, through sort of, you know, a sort of fairly unparticipatory approach, supporting activists into spaces of reflection on their experience, gradually we started to build a bit of a methodology around that that kind of takes a very holistic approach. You know, it definitely points to the need and the importance for us to attend to the kind of intrapersonal, the kind of inner work, you know, self-awareness, emotional literacy, these kinds of things, and develop practices that help us to deepen these qualities in ourselves. But at the same time, you know, it also gave an awful lot of attention to, but what's going on in our interactions with others, the kind of intrapersonal sort of dimension? You know, what's the culture in our organization like? How do we deal with conflict when it arises? How do we understand and work in a healthy way with the power dynamics that inevitably sort of, you know, come into all human interactions? And as well as the intrapersonal and intrapersonal, of course, more and more, we were kind of giving attention to, and what's happening between organizations? What's the context that we're working in the broader socio-political context? And so we sort of developed a methodology, you know, to support activist resilience that sort of tries to kind of work in all these three spheres, the intrapersonal, the intrapersonal, and you know, what's happening with our movements? How do we build the transformative power that's needed so that we don't have to just be resilient, right? In a way that's like dealing with the stresses that we put under. But how do we change the social relations? How do we change the socio-political context so that those stresses are not things we have to be enduring? You know, the resilience in that sense isn't just about being sort of, you know, enduring sort of standing up to the challenges. It's not just about adapting, you know, to changing certain circumstances, but it's also about building the transformative collective power that we need to really change those underlying structural conditions as well. So, you know, that's what we do. You know, we run a whole programme with the U-Leaks project of training that kind of grew out of that interest in psychosocial resilience. Don't look at, you know, the personal, the intrapersonal and sort of movement level stuff. So, yeah, that's what we're about. And it's so, you know, actually when we were doing this, you know, starting to do this in 2009, 2010, there just wasn't that much attention to these kinds of things. You know, a lot of activists felt, I think, a little bit, but it was almost as though to give attention to these things was escapist or merely privileged or something, you know. And rather than recognising actually attending to resilience is a political necessity. You know, these are long, old struggles that were involved in. And unless we attend to the resilience for ourselves and our organisations, we're just not around long enough to build the kind of collective power that all of us on this call, I imagine, know that we need to create to achieve the structural students that we're looking at. Yeah. Thanks, G. Yeah, I think you're touching there on something, on something important of like, I guess like, we see that those things have evolved and those questions have been bubbling up in the climate movement, those questions of emotional resiliency, of dealing with burnout and all of these things. They've been coming up more and more, I guess, in the past few years. And I'm interested in your perspective, G, as someone who's, I guess, like seeing a lot of those activists coming through the trainings at Ulex, like what have you seen as, like what have you seen evolved? What are the tendencies that you've seen evolve in the last few years? And hope on your end, I guess, having this very, this, like as you said, you're a feminist as well. And I guess I'm interested to get you a sense of whether you're seeing a lot of differences between how the climate movement deals with those questions and how the feminist movement has historically and whether there's any lessons that we can draw from that. So, yeah, I'm interested in both of your perspectives on this. Do you want to go first, Hope, with that? Hope, can you still hear us? Okay, maybe G, go fast and I'll try to see whether Hope is still with us. Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I guess, ah, here we go, great. I'll meet him. Yeah, we can hear you, Hope, but I think it might be better without the video so that we can hear you a bit more clearly. So we've realized that there is power in movement building because looking at the women's rights sector broadly, I think it's fair to say that, you know, you cannot carry all the bugs that have been created by patriarchy, that have been created by class, that have been created by homophobia, that have been created by capitalism, that have been created by religious fundamentalism. So because of that, we need a very, very strong movement, you know, to walk with us, to carry the burden because well-being is not individual, it's see, it's corrective. So if we think about the corrective, it means that we look at the bugs, be ageless, the bugs that we are carrying and we identify those that we can drop but those that need the power of the movement. And as we look at what needs the power of the movement, we identify areas where we need to move together because really, you know, if you support a woman or women and you support their well-being, it impacts on you, it impacts on the movement, it impacts on everyone, whether it is about climate change, whether it's about virus that comes from that, supporting climate change, whatever it is, you need the power of the movement. And that means that we need to build movement that are strong enough to identify the bugs that we carry within that movement and see how we can drop them. And that means that we have to be very care about strategy, we've got to be very care about power, you know, both visible and invisible, the invisible power of culture, the invisible power of religion, the invisible power that various, you know, religious institutions carry. We've also got to be very care about power over, the power of organizations, the power of institutions, the power that we see, you know, in terms of the police that the army, when they stop us from demonstrating, we have to be very clear about that power that we don't see. We may not see it's invisible. So, moving as where we are going, moving as, you know, moving as a movement that has got a strategy and a vision means that we know which bugs we need to drop. And we know that one person cannot drop those bugs. We need many people to drop those bugs. And if we are going to drop those bugs, we have to be well, because when we are not well, we cannot drop them. So, being well means that we've taken the time to make ourselves well. It means that we've taken the time to ensure that we understand what individual and collective wellness mean. It means that we understand what, you know, ensuring that the movement, the community that we work with is well. And what does wellness mean? It means that we have to go back to the wellness of the vehicle, our bodies. So, if our bodies are well, if we ensure that we keep them, you know, serviced, and we understand what that service means, then we are moving towards wellness. I should add that, you know, our bodies are vehicles. They never has to move from point A to point B. And vehicles are serviced. So, if we don't service our bodies as our vehicles, then where are we headed? We need to keep our bodies in good repair. We need to keep our minds in good repair. We need to keep our emotions in good repair. We need to keep our finances. I know this is very hard, but we need to keep our finances in good repair. We need to keep everything that we are in good repair. And this is collective energy, because without collective energy, we can't move this huge mountain of whatever is not going right, you know, correct. So, we need to bring our energies together and push this huge patriarchal mountain, huge capitalistic mountain, huge homophobic mountain, huge, I don't know, whatever mountain you can see forward. We need that energy. So, what I'm advocating for is that the power of the collective that I think the previous speaker talked about, you know, as well. Thank you, Hope. Gee? Yeah, I guess you're asking about shifts and changes, maybe, right, over the years, in approaching this stuff. I mean, for us, I think we used to struggle more in trying to support, to try to honour a kind of a balance between action and reflection, you know. And I think there's more and more understanding that for us to develop sufficiently responsive strategies and approaches, we do need to honour, we need for deep reflection of experience, right? There's no, there's no simple, you know, off-the-shelf answer to the kind of, you know, to the really complex struggles we're facing, kind of interlocking systems of reflection. None of us have all the answers. And so building reflection in is so important. It used to be harder to do that. And I think more and more, activists are aware that we need to develop this reflexive capacity. This doesn't mean it's easy, right? You know, there's like, of course, there's so much to be done. And we're so, there's so many demands there's such a lot of urgency. So it's not an easy thing to do. But I think people are more willing to bear the tension between action and reflection, to develop really transformative practices. So that's one thing, we're willingness to bear the tension rather than just push reflection out. You know, it's like we've just got to get on with it. So that's one thing. Another big change, I think, and, you know, to some extent, I think this relates to your question related to feminism is that we are seeing more and more willingness to incorporate like somatic awareness, you know, bringing some somatic understanding into activism. Much more attention to developing trauma-informed approaches because, you know, a trauma-informed approach is really essential if we're going to work, look at well-being and sustaining ourselves. So see much more of that. A greater willingness, I think, to talk in terms of cultivating cultures of care between us and our organisations and step up to the incredible challenges involved in doing that, you know, the transformative approach that's needed for that. And a lot of these really are kind of very much sort of, you know, feminist-type narratives, right, that are being sort of brought in. And a sense as well of the importance of really trying to embody our values in the way that we do activism, really trying to ensure that the kinds of social relationships within our organisations and within our groups are modelling the kind of world that we're trying to bring about. Yeah, so it's like we're taking more seriously the importance of that kind of prefigurative kind of approach, I think. So I think all of that for me, yeah, seems very, very positive. These are all very, very positive moves, right? Thank you, G. I want to maybe direct ourselves towards something that you've touched on, in the hope of how, I guess, the need for that care to be collective. And I guess this is something that it feels like in some parts of our movement, the response to the kind of widespread burnout that we've been seeing has been very individualistic, has been to tell people to get more rest, to maybe meditate, to do all these very individual self-care things. And not to say that these things aren't important, they are, but I guess they're not really at the level of what is needed to address the kind of crisis of care that we're feeling in our movements. So I want to ask you both, what does radical collective care look like to you and how do we get there without dismissing the need for individual care as well, but how do we get to that more collective care that is needed in our movement? So care is both corrective at the same individual. As an individual, you have to be careful and take care of your being, but you also know, as I've said before, that there are bugs that you cannot carry alone. You need the power of the collective. So one of the things that we need to really underline is the importance of movement building around self-well-being, collective well-being. When one person gets affected by violence, we all get affected. When one person is, because of who they are, one person gets affected because she's a woman expressing herself, the whole movement gets affected. But much more is that when we are not well, we fragment the movement. We say things that we shouldn't say. We do things that we shouldn't do. We start chewing one another within the movement. So how do we build a movement that cares for everyone and cares for itself growth? That is the question. We need to find ways of building a movement that cares for individuals, but also cares for the collective. And I think up to now, we have been in a situation where we've concentrated on the individual without understanding that when that individual is affected, the whole movement gets affected. When an individual is unhappy, we all get unhappy and we start chewing one another. A long time ago, I wrote an article about sisterhood within the women's movement and how when we fight within that movement even gets affected. So the most important thing is to understand that well-being is a tool. It's a feminist tool that we should advocate in that movement. It's a tool that we should appreciate. It's a tool that is very, very important in making shifts, power shifts within the movement. So what I'm saying to you is that well-being is corrective. It's individual, but it's also corrective because we carry bags and we did it back and they are huge. And if they are huge, they need a mass, you know, a mass of people that can carry it and we can only do that through our movement building. And movement building has got its own tactics. How do we build movement? How do we build movement? I think there are tactics for building movements and we can learn from movements that have been there before, you know, whether it is liberation movements or religious movements, but we can learn from those movements. But we've also achieved a lot through the women's movement, the feminist movement, and we need to appreciate how did that happen? What strategies were used? Who was involved? Who was at the center? So we need to go back to the drawing board and that's how some of the movements that have been successful were built. And so then stop there. Thank you, Hope. Yes. So for me, this question about the kind of, I guess tensions between individual or like self-care and kind of collective care are a little bit illusory in a sense, right? I mean, I think you can't have, you cannot have healthy collectives unless the individuals in this collective are healthy individuals, right? Who are bringing self-worths and emotional literacy to their own experience. But you also can't have healthy individuals without healthy collectives. It's like, you know, to the extent that we get drawn into individualistic strategies for our well-being, we just reinforce a kind of preoccupation that leaves us as the people who are brutal, fragile, contracted, that isn't wellness, you know? It's like that self preoccupation is in itself quite painful, I think. So I think we need to always sort of place the kind of these individual practices within an understanding of ourselves as fundamentally social beings, you know, as the sort of shift in understanding. That means that the idea that we can take care of ourselves, we kind of see through that as kind of a bit delusional fundamentally, right? And it's the delusion that's incredibly compounded because of the impacts of like, you know, the neoliberal assault on, you know, our communities and our sense of solidarity between each other. But for me, you know, there isn't a tension between the two. We have to understand the inseparability of transforming ourselves and transforming the world, transforming ourselves and transforming our social contexts. Within activist groups and organisations, we've put a lot of emphasis on the importance of balancing three things for sort of the health of these kind of groups, which is we need to attend to a task, we need to attend to process, we need to attend to relationships. And task usually is kind of an easy thing for activists to kind of give attention to, you know, we wanna get stuck, don't we? Process to some extent, activists will often give attention to process, you know, we kind of like, how do we make decisions and how do we organise and all this kind of stuff. Often what gets neglected is the quality of relationships that underpin that really. So, you know, I think, you know, putting a lot of emphasis on the relationship building, the building of trust and understanding, a sense of, a sense that we're in this together, there are a sense of alignment. I just think that's such an important area to give attention to the quality of relationships, that underpin good process and enable us to get the stuff that we wanna get done here to do the task. Thank you, G. Yeah, thanks both. These are very important and insightful perspectives on this, I guess, this balance and this connection between collective care and individual care. I wanna bring up a question that has been asked in the Q&A section that I'm really keen to hear your thoughts on as well. Ah, I've lost it. We had a question, yes, around basically seeing, it seems that there are quite significantly fewer men involved in the environmental movement. And I guess we could say similarly to other movements compared to the number of women in those movements. How do we get more men on board, especially young men? And I guess maybe before that, do you agree to this analysis from the person who's posted this question? Do you feel like there are more men, less men in the movement than women? And if so, why? And how do we remedy that? I think that first of all, the issue of world being is seen as a soft issue that doesn't mean the masculine, doesn't mean the masculine criteria of what is important. And we need to demystify that. Second, climate change and whatever is happening is also seen as a soft issue that requires feminine power, that requires women power and doesn't invite men discussions. So I think we need to, so that they understand that this is their issue too. I think when we think about development, there are those issues that are seen as feminine. This is a women's issue because it's a soft issue. It's not, it doesn't boost your masculinity. And I think without unpacking what masculinity means without unpacking femininity, without unpacking feminism, without understanding power and how power operates, we will not go very far. So we need to start thinking about power and how power operates, whether it is power within, whether it's power with others, whether it is invisible power, whether it is power over, whatever kind of power we are talking about, we need to start talking about power. And I think when we do that, young men and old men will understand. But for now, when we talk about climate change, we talk about change in general. It's seen as a soft power. It's feminine. My colleague, it will be interesting to hear his perspective. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure I kind of like go with the question, you know, it's like maybe whoever's asking the question has the beta on this. I mean, I don't think I'll do, you know, it kind of feels like maybe it's a little bit anecdotal or something. And when I think about, you know, we do things with a lot of climate justice organizations and networks and so on. I can't say that I would, I would share that view from my experience. So that's one thing. And the other thing is, yeah, I'm not sure that I kind of quite want to kind of give credibility to such a simple binary way of thinking about who's taking part in our movements anyway. You know, more and more, we're seeing people bringing awareness to the constructive nature of their gender identities. I think it's a refreshing and important thing. I think it's clearly that, you know, this isn't to sort of negate the real impactful kind of nature of gender on our social relations, our experiences in any way. But I think developing an understanding of the kind of the more fluid, non-binary, constructed nature or gender is a crucial part of the struggles that we're involved in, at least for me, it is. And many of the people I work with. So yeah, I mean, I think asking the question in that very binary way kind of plays back into kind of ways of thinking about the world that personally I'm wanting to us to sort of evolve beyond a little bit, I guess, without denying the history and the real concrete kind of impact of, you know, patriarchal ways of understanding gender. So side-stepping the question in a way, right? But there you go. No, thank you, G. I think that's a really important perspective to bring here. And I was hoping that among other things that would come up, I think it is an interesting one, right? Of I think I can see how that analysis can come up in in our movements or in certain groups or in certain parts of our movements. But I think it's an important one to question and to question, both in terms of whether that's actually the case, but also to question, I guess, this kind of binary approach to to gender and to and to activism in that sense and bringing that more intersectional perspective on it as well. So thank you for that, G, and thank you, Hope, as well. Another question that came up in the Q&A Caroline Hickman. So this morning we had a we ran a session on sustaining activism in the long run as well. And Caroline Hickman was part of it. She's a psychotherapist doing a lot of work on climate anxiety and things like this. And she said that burnout comes from loss of meaning rather than from burden or overwhelm. It's when we lose the meaning of what we do that we burn out. And so the question is, without a spiritual foundation, how do we sustain meaning to combat burnout? Or is a spiritual foundation essential to this work? Did you want to start this time, maybe? Yeah, sure. So I mean, I do think, you know, questions around meaning are really a really, you know, crucial when we're thinking about sustaining ourselves. I don't think it's I wouldn't agree that that is the cause of burnout. I mean, the whole approach we take is that there are a whole multiplicity of conditions and you can have a real strong sense of meaning. But if you're under, you know, living under certain kinds of repressive conditions, you know, subject to kind of certain forms of oppression on a daily basis, you're still going to get worn down. You're going to get worn out, depleted and all the rest of it, right? So meaning doesn't necessarily trump all the other conditions that are there as well. But, yeah, of course, looking at the way we understand, you know, our world view and the way we understand what the self is, the way we understand our purpose and our sense of direction, a kind of a really crucial area of reflection, I think, for most activists, right? And does it need a spiritual underpinning? It depends how you define the term, right? I mean, I think, yeah, I would say that in a sort of superficial sense of the term spiritual, you know, I have a sort of spiritual foundation in my life. There's a bit of a risk, I think, of like, you know, spiritual as opposed to kind of material, you know, I think the kind of world view I have kind of doesn't see a sort of a simple divide, a sort of dualistic kind of thing between spiritual material and the spiritual, I think, in that sense, connects to the sense of a connection with something bigger than ourselves. And that sense of something bigger than ourselves can be the solidarity you have with our movements, a sense of solidarity with life, which is, you know, potentially kind of a spiritual source of nourishment, right? So, so, yeah, I think a spiritual connection in that sense is is really important. Yeah. And meaning. Gosh, that's a tough one, isn't it? I mean, it's going to, you know, that changes through our lives, right? There's a sense of what is most meaningful to us. And I but I think deeper reflection in that year is really, really important, which crucial. You know, analysing our world view, you know, how do we how do we how do we make sense of things is an important thing to understand in terms of developing deeper self-awareness. Thank you, G. I hope you want to share some thoughts as well on this question of of spiritual foundation to sustain meaning as a way to combat burnout. I do agree that spirituality has good different meanings for us. For me, spiritual grounded is connected to nature. When we understand nature and we are part of it, then we get grounded about special grounding is connected with the earth. Because without connecting with us, without connecting with with with nature, where we get our nutrients, where we get our food, where we get our air, where we get really, you know, where we get the way of being, the life to be in this world, then we are lost. So I think in a way, spirituality is connected with this, because when we are not well, it means we are ungrounded. And when we are grounded, it means our roots don't go deep. And if they are not deep, they don't sustain us. So there is something about spirituality and nature, because how can we live in this world without connecting to that, which sustains us? Our nutrients come from the ground, our food comes from the ground, our air comes from the ground, whatever it is that makes us who we are comes from the ground. And for me, that's part of spirituality. But I'm very much aware that spirituality means different things to different people. But for me, the spirituality means connecting with the earth. It means connecting with everyone else. It means connecting with that which involves us. That's my understanding of spirituality. But as I've said, people have got different meanings of spirituality. And then when I think about spirituality, I connect it with feminism because you have to be a feminist without understanding climate change. It's difficult to be a feminist without understanding that which fits your soul. It's O-U-L. You have to be a feminist, I think, without working in this world, very much aware that you are not alone. You are with creatures, you are with plants, you are with oceans, you are with water, you are with everything. So that's what spirituality means to me. And when we disconnect from that, which makes us who we are, we get lost. When we disconnect from that, which enables us to connect with one another, breath, we are disconnected from one another. And when we disconnect from that, which makes us human, we are disconnected from one another. So that's what spirituality means to me. And that's why I think that loss of spirituality kind of connects us from the world that we live in. Thank you, Hope, and thank you, G, as well, for your thoughts on this. So I guess like going a bit away from the wider discussion, I was wondering, G, if you would be willing to share maybe some of the practices or tools that are being used, I guess, by you and you, Lex, and provided to activists in the movements to around those questions of resiliency and sustaining activism. If you can talk to us a bit more about about that kind of work that you're doing. Yes. So so in the schedule for this call, I think there was the idea that we'd take a chunk of time to do this, right? So that's now is that we can do that. OK, so maybe I'll take 10, 15 minutes to kind of share a couple of things. So I'm going to I'll share a screen. OK. First of all, so let me see what we've got here. We'll get there eventually. Yes, if this works. So yeah, it's a little bit a little bit of background here, right? You can see my screen there, I'm guessing, right? So so, yeah, I mean, as I said, we started doing this work kind of back in back in 2009, 2010, running this training, Sustainable Resistance Empowering Renewal. And really at the heart of that is this this kind of action learning kind of approach. So in terms of sharing practices, I think that this is a really crucial tool and practice for anybody wanting to develop a really sustainable approach to their activism, right? Which is building into their practice this kind of action learning cycle. So rather than just doing stuff, having experience and habitually kind of repeating things until we wear ourselves down, going from action to experience, but then building into a deeper reflection so that we can learn from experience, transform the way we do things and develop a really responsive kind of practice that evolves over time. So action learning is kind of really important. And in the educational work we do, you know, we use these kind of these these methodologies to support that that ongoing learning. When I think we also need to be taking a really kind of holistic approach to that, right? So our work I think as activists has to has to address the thinking and rational side of ourselves, but it has to address the feeling, the emotional side, the sensing, the somatic side and also kind of like honoured something which is a bit more almost the sort of the intuitive sort of aspect of our experience as well, right? So to do that, we take this kind of regenerative approach to activism. You know, we assume that most of us are working under conditions where the social matrix out of which our activism grows is really depleted. So sustaining it isn't enough, right? We think about agriculture, sustainable agriculture is fine if you've already got kind of a rich kind of biodiversity, if you have soil that is like full of nutrition. But because of kind of extractive practices, soil gets depleted, it gets worn out, you know, deforestation, destruction, biodiversity, soil erosion, etc., etc. So a sustainable approach isn't enough. We need to think regeneratively about our activist practice. How does our activism actually rebuild vitality and sources of energy? And so the work we do at Ulex is about that, you know, we in the same way that regenerative agriculture tries to return vitality into the soil. Our approach is about how do we return that vitality into the social fabric of our kind of of our movements, right? So we use a capacities framework to think about that. And I think this is important in terms of us thinking about well-being practices. It's like on the right hand side of the screen there, you can see the capacities framework we use. You know, we run a program assuming that movements need all of these capabilities, like the narrative capacity, you know, coming back to this question, meaning it's like being able to tell the story of who we are, how we got here, where we're going. This is really important. Our movements need a disruptive capacity, open up space for change, with an institutional capacity, you know, to translate the power of narrative and disruption into structural change. But we also need these other two, like the prefigurative, which we spoke a bit about earlier on, like how do we walk the talk? How do we embody values within our groups? And we also need the capacity for resilience, right, which this session is very much about, but placing resilience not as an added extra, but as a fundamental movement capability, right? And I think that in itself is an important practice that we continue to place an emphasis on that as part of our kind of core movement work. Doing the other things without building resilience in isn't going to give us the longevity that our movements really need. So, you know, as a practice, thinking about resilience as a core capability, right? We think about resilience as a core capability. Again, it's not enough to just think about that at the individual level. We have to think about it at an organizational group level and at a social movement level as well. When we look at the impact of the kind of stresses that wear people down, we see the symptoms showing up in the individual, you know, just with sort of basic burnout. We see them showing up in the group, the way that we sort of relationships break down, trust break down, et cetera, et cetera. And we see them in our movements, you know, we see the way that organizations enter into that inter-organizational conflict, we see fragmentation. So our strategies for psychosocial resilience need to have practices at all three levels. So you're asking, what are the practices? Well, there's incredible range of practice that we need to use in a really holistic way. And I think we have to understand resilience as not just weathering difficulty, right? So we use this kind of three, we think about three aspects of psychosocial resilience is all very important. There is the absorptive capacity, right? The ability to mitigate, you know, negative events to cope with stresses. There is an adaptive capacity, right? The ability to, you know, transform our practice over time, you know, to build our capacity, to adapt and respond to changing circumstances. But the third part is so crucial, right? Resilience has to also include this transformative capacity where we're changing the conditions under which we're working, social conditions, institutional conditions, the cultural conditions, so that we're not just having to absorb and adapt to stress, but we're changing the underlying structures, right? So, you know, this is, this comes back to this need to work at the individual group and social movement level to really build resilience. So we just recently produced this, right? And I shared it in the chat, hopefully you've had a chance to open it, right? So it's a handbook that looks at that whole range of practices, right? The way that the manual is structured is that it has a whole set of chapters that look at the interpersonal, the interpersonal and the socio-political, right? So I'm gonna open that manual, I think, now. I'm gonna share the screen and show you inside it a little bit. So, let me just see, let's try and find out. I might reshare my screen, right? So I can make sure I'm showing you the right screen now. Let's see this one here, yeah, let's try this. Right, so this is the manual, right? So practices, right? This is a sustaining climate justice movement, a training manual. And it's full of activities, learning activities that some of these are things that people will take on as trainers, you know, running with groups, but a lot of it is kind of really good peer-to-peer stuff. These are activities and practices and sessions that you can run with your colleagues, right? Without being, yeah, especially kind of a special kind of having special training skills or something, right? So inside it, you can see there's a whole bunch of chapters, right? So there are some that talk about the background to psychosocial resilience. There's a chapter about how to use the thing. But then going into those different areas, the interpersonal and interpersonal and the social movement level, you've got all these chapters. So burnout as a general theme, the intrapersonal aspect of practices with developing self-awareness, emotional literacy, working with overwhelm, working with pain, working with difficult emotion, stuff about body work. But then you move on to the stuff that's more about the intrapersonal, the interpersonal, you know, groups and organizational cultures. How do we build sustainable cultures, resilient and regenerative cultures? How do we ensure that our ways of organizing embody active solidarity, equity, empowerment, inclusion? How do we bring trauma-informed approaches? And so on. So, you know, you can see there's a whole bunch of different kind of things here. If you go into each of those chapters, I'll just show you one as a kind of a little example and show you the kind of practices and tools that are in there. So you get this one on burnout, it gives us sort of an overview. It gives a kind of a, you know, how do we think about burnout? Well, it's not just getting worn out. It's not just depletion, as well as depletion of energy. There's also this kind of sense of contraction, the hardening that happens, you know, in burnout, the kind of cynicism, the narrow-mindedness, the loss of creativity and flexibility in the ways we think. And the third part of that is this disconnection. You know, we get disconnected from each other, we withdraw, we get disconnected from our own experience, disconnected from our bodies, the sort of alienation, this kind of thing. So, you know, it talks about, well, what is burnout in this sort of, you know, in a broadest sense? And then, you know, stuff about identifying burnout and et cetera, et cetera. But then at the end of each chapter, right, what you're gonna find is a whole set of activities, right, resources, further reading, and in there, I just think we open one of these, so here's a little practice that, you know, you can download this thing and sort of do this in group. Here's one which is called the Burnout World Group Activity, right? So this is reflective practice. You do it with a group of people. All of these different activities look like this, that's how you handle them. They take to run the kind of format they have, materials you need, that kind of stuff. And then there's a whole framing kind of text, you know, what's the purpose? What are the aims of this kind of activity? And in this one in particular, what we're kind of doing is you're supporting people to use this burnout world tool, right? So, you know, in a participatory session, you kind of brainstorm into these different areas as a group. What are the general kind of conditions that lead to burnout, that lead to a lack of sustainability? What are our personal behavioral tendencies? What are the underlying emotional and psychological needs? What kind of views and beliefs that we bring that undermine our sustainability? What are the dynamics in our groups that wear us down and deplete us? You know, you have to attend to material needs as well. And again, thinking about the wider social and structural factors. So an activity like that, you know, in a group is a really important way as a practice, right? To understand what are the conditions that are leading to us getting burnt out? This gives you a framework to have those conversations with each other, to build a shared understanding of those kind of things. And then you can sort of take an activity like this and just stop sharing my screen and just talk to you for a minute. Yeah, you can kind of, you know, you can stop, you can take an activity like that, which is building a shared general understanding of the multiplicity of conditions that wear us down. And then you can start asking, but in the concrete experience we have at the moment, which are the most important? Where are the places that we can make interventions that would change the conditions that deplete us and wear us down and help us to become more sustainable, more resilient in our practice? And that might be, you know, about self-awareness. It might be important for you, your colleagues. It might be that you need to kind of have the tools for exposing this really toxic kind of, you know, unspoken conflict or tension that's in the group. It might be that you need to think about how do we build better alliances with some of the people that we're trying to kind of strengthen our movement with? But you need to do the reflection, analyze the conditions, and then find the right kind of tools, right? To the right practices that are gonna be most effective in your specific situation, because, you know, we're all living different lives. We're all doing our activism under different kinds of conditions. So, you know, reflection, analysis, and then, you know, and that manual's got a whole load of different tools and practices that would be useful across that range of interpersonal interpersonal and, you know, movement ecology kind of practice. So anyway, I shared it with you. So do have a look at it, use it, share it with anyone you like. It's just kind of out there, it's a PDF. Hopefully that's helpful. Thank you. Yeah, thanks, G. It is, I think, more than helpful. It feels like such a precious and important resource to be able to have this in our movements on this, there are a few people who've been asking whether this guide or tool is available in other languages or just in English for now. We were very lucky to have some people who were to translate it into Portuguese. So we have a lot of the framing texts in Portuguese. They're not published in the PDF yet. We need to kind of load that into a design. We do have a version of it, which is a sort of a migrant solidarity version that I think has a Spanish, Italian and Greek translations. It's a slightly different version, which should develop more for people doing migrant solidarity work, rather than find the justice specific. So you can find those through the website, I think. Amazing, thank you so much, G. And yeah, just such a precious resource to have in our movements. So thank you to you. And I guess to everyone else who's been working on it, it feels really important. Hope, I think we had discussed that. You wanted to maybe share a practice as well around care and resiliency. Yes, my own analogy is that of a tree. And it also comes from what we all know, we know trees. It's not really sophisticated, it's very simple, but I think it works. So if you have a notebook, you have a pen, draw a tree starting with the roots. So when you think about the roots, how deep are your roots? How grounded are you? And what practices do you use to ground you? Whether it's you as an individual or your organization, what roots you, what grounds you, what is it that enables you survive? What is it that enables you to ensure that you get nutrients from whatever you believe in? And this is something that we can do as a group. It's something we can do as individuals. Groundedness, it's about groundedness. What grounds you, what roots you, what enables you as an organization, what enables you as an individuals to really be grounded so that when you are far away from yourself, you can get back to self. Because we talk about being beside ourselves. Sometimes we say, I was beside myself with fear. I was beside myself with worry. How do you get back to self? What is it that grounds you? So if you've grown a tree, if you've grown a tree, think about the trunk. The trunk represents your support system. Where does it come from? And if you have support system, do you have knowledge of it? Do you even know it? Do you have knowledge of it? Do you keep it going? The trunk represents your support system whether you're an individual or an organization, how do you get your support system? We got the leaves, the sources of knowledge and skills. Where do you get your sources of knowledge from? I usually say that civil society organizations can discourage you because you're always working, you are busy, it might be difficult to reach, to watch movies, to meet people that you're interested in, to go to seminars, to go to workshops, to connect with different sources of knowledge. So where is your source of knowledge as an individual and as an organization? How do you ensure that you are current? How do you ensure that you are creative? How do you ensure that you remain in the field and you don't deteriorate, you don't expire and you remain connected to the world? That is the trunk. I want to go to the leaves. The leaves, the trunk is your support, the leaves are your sources of knowledge and skills and I think I've talked about that, but the trunk is where you get your support. So let me start, groundedness is about that which grounds you, it might be your values, it might be your mission, it might be whatever it is, what is it that grounds you. Then we got the trunk. The trunk is your support and the leaves are your sources of knowledge. So let's go to the flowers. Flowers represent your hopes and dreams. In many organizations, we've stopped just stopping to dream, just stopping to think about our bodies, just stopping, think about what makes us who we are. So that happens at organizational level. It also happens at individual level. Everything starts with imagination. So if we've stopped imagining, if we can't stop and dream, if we can't stop aside time to just to reflect and we got the fruits, the fruits represent gratitude because whether you are an organizational individual, there are things you are grateful for. In my own life, I have a job where at the end of the day, I put the things I'm grateful for. Within my organization, we've got a job where every day we put things we are grateful for and end of the week, we review that. And then if you have a tree, there are leaves that can no longer serve you, they are dead. What is it that you want to let go of? So this is really simple. You have the image of a tree or the analogy of a tree and you are thinking about the roots, what roots you? Have you negated that which roots you? Are you paying attention to that which roots you? Are you paying attention to that which roots the organization? Do you still remember the vision and the mission of the organization? Do you still remember the values of the organization? Then we got the track and this is your support system. Every organization needs to have a support system. As an individual, you have support system. But as activists, sometimes we forget our support system. We are very busy, we don't attend weddings, we don't attend baptisms, we don't attend social gatherings, we don't attend anything because we are busy. And then when we need that support system, it's not available. And we say, you are not available for me, but were you available for them? Organizations too need that support system within your support system. It might be consultants, it might be funders, it might be friends, it might be stakeholders within your system. And then we got the leaves. This is your knowledge. Do you take time to really, really, really progress because your knowledge is enabling you to progress? Are you busy working, working, working that you forget that you need to ensure that your knowledge is upgraded? You forget that you need to talk to people, you need to read, reading. You need to write. You need to see movies that are in the area of expertise. You need to read stories, what is your knowledge coming from? But also, how are you contributing to existing knowledge and skills? Then we go to the fruits. And these are your hopes and dreams. Do you take time to reflect? Do you take time to just stop and you don't like spend a week reflecting? Cross doors, cross windows, cross everything and reflect and say what is our organization is about? What strategies are working? What strategies are not working? Who is unhappy? What are they struggling with? Just getting in touch with one another. And then we go to fruits. Gratitude is very important. In my own life, you know, every day, at the end of the day, I think about things that I'm grateful for. But I also think that we should think about things we are grateful for. The stakeholders that we reached out to and their input into our, those might be the things we are grateful for. And then we have to think about the leaves that we need to let go of. Those words that no longer serve you as you move into the future. We don't just let go of them, but they turn into manure and they turn into manure. They also enrich us. But there are things we have to let go of and we learn from those things that we let go of. So this is my world being free that I'm presenting to you. And you can use it for meditation. You can use it for January. You can use it in your own organization. Imagine when you sit and you think about that which grounds you. And they not say, is it still grounding you? You are very important. If you are grounding you, you are very important. Your plan is important. Is it grounding the individual? Where it grounds you? Imagine if you sit as an organization and you think about your sources of support. Where does it come from? Imagine if you sit and think about your sources of knowledge. Where does it come from? are you stuck? Are you stagnant? Are you progressing? Is the knowledge within the organization greater than the knowledge outside there? Because we expect that. And then you think about what you are grateful for and so on and so forth. So this is the well-being tree that I'm presenting meditation. You use it for journaling. You use it in your own organization to really reflect on your practices. And you can also use it within the community, the stakeholders that you work with. So that is my message to you. The well-being tree. Thank you. Thank you, Ho. That is a very beautiful tool to share with us. I feel like with both of you, we're all going to leave this call much more equipped to be resilient. So thank you both for sharing those practices and tools that we can use in our daily lives. I guess as we're slowly drawing to the end of this call, I think maybe the last question that I want to ask you a bit as closing remarks is picking up from Hope's mention of the importance to hold on to our hopes and dreams. I guess I want to know what are your hopes and dreams, both of you, and maybe what gives you hope? I feel like both as people who are obviously activists, but also quite like in touch and face with this question of care and maybe this kind of question of how we care for ourselves and others. I'd be interested to know both what gives you hope and what you're hopeful for. Do you want to start, Hope? Hope? Yes, I look at the work that we have done, especially within the feminist movement. Wait, not for the feminist movement. It would be difficult for us to break doors and go inside the house and look at issues of sex and sexuality. Look at how issues of well-being are being practiced at individual level and also devil. It would be difficult for us to go within organizations and talk about well-being. It would be difficult for us to go with communities and talk about well-being and say, this is the work, really, it's not by the way. So what gives me hope is that we are having this discussion. What gives me hope is that we understand that well-being is corrective. What gives me hope is that without being well, the way we are understanding now, we can't have sustainable movements. What gives me hope is that the world outside there is determined to make sure that we die sad, but we are also determined to make sure that we die happy. The world is determined to make us very, very, very sad by denying us our rights, by reassuring that the context within which we work is very different, but we are also determined that we keep getting together to make sure that we know. We are going to ensure that we do this work not as fragmented human beings, but as human beings who work together and ensure that we understand the power of the corrective and ensure that we understand our own power within and ensure that we understand the power to make sure that things happen and ensure that we understand that we are moving together the corrective power and that is the power of the movement and we've been promoting movements. The other thing that gives me hope is the power of feminism. Ensuring that that which is hidden is made visible and is what is hidden. Is that the visible power, the power of culture, the power of religion, the power of institution? We are putting institutions, we are putting it out there and saying that no, we are not going to be held back by that kind of power. And what gives me hope at these conversations that we have and that we understand that we'll be without being well. We remain fragmented without being well. We work beside ourselves. We are not together without being well. We are not who we are meant to be. We can't have the power that we need. So in a nutshell, the power of ensuring that resilience is corrective. Resilience is not about withstanding pain. It's about ensuring we have the tools that deal with that pain. Resilience is about ensuring that we all understand where we are going with us and ensuring that resilience is about well-being because when we are not well, we cannot perform. That gives me hope. It's a tricky question to end on, isn't it? I think for me at least, by watching the cycles that people go through of hope and hopelessness, a sense of yes we can and a sense of failure, a sense of we won, but then a sense that our victories are so compromised and partial, this rising and falling of that sense of motivation. Because I've found myself for quite a few years looking for a kind of motivation that I think rides somewhere between hope and hopelessness. It's almost like beyond those cycles of hope and hopelessness. A lot of this is about connotation. We understand certain words, but for me hope often has quite a strong future orientation about it. Certainly I live my life with a sense of direction, a sense of purpose, a sense of the changes that could be. But what nourishes my motivation isn't the hope that that will happen, but the joy and the delight of acknowledging what we're doing together now. A sense of the delight in being in a space with this number of people who really care, who are kind of looking to act in solidarity with each other. I think it's the hope, it's more of a sense of the delight and the joy we are doing together of honoring each other's integrity, each other's kind of the choices that we're each making in the present today. Which helps me to sort of find this line beyond beyond hope and hopelessness. Thanks. Yeah, it's certainly interesting. I feel like as an activist I often find it a very interesting question to ask other activists, not necessarily what gives them hope, but also just what is hope to them. I feel like we all have maybe slightly different understandings of what hope is to us. And so that means that we get hope in different ways and from different things. And yeah, I find it really interesting. I have a really close friend of mine who once told me that he didn't have any hope. And I said, but how you've been organizing for so long, how do you sustain your activism and you're organizing if you don't have any hope? And he said, well, I don't need the hope because I just need to know that what I'm fighting for is just and is important. And I don't need to feel hopeful that we'll get there. Which I'm still, it still feels quite harsh view on things. Maybe a bit cynical, but found it really interesting because I couldn't imagine doing what we do without having any hope. So yeah, thank you both for bringing your own perspectives of hope and sharing what gives you hope and what you're hopeful for. We have a few minutes left. I don't know if there was any other thing that you wanted to share here that you didn't get the chance. Maybe that didn't came up in the questions. Any closing thoughts or remarks that either of you or both of you wanted to share before we wrap up this space? Maybe what I really want to share is looking at what we have achieved as a movement, which is a movement of climate change, where is this feminist movement, where it is the LGBTQ movement. I think the power of the creative gives me hope. I know that, you know, we still have a long way to go. I know that sometimes we forget our achievements. I know that we work in contexts, contexts that are very difficult. But at the end of the day, really when I sit and take stock of what we have achieved, I feel proud. And I don't think that would have helped. That would have happened without the power of the collective. So I still, you know, think that we need to build very strong movements. I still think that we need to make our voices loud and clear. I still think that we need to cultivate a sense of well-being, fresh. I still think that we need to enhance, you know, the way we work within organizations. But at the end of the day, I look at our achievements and I'm proud. From the feminist perspective, wouldn't be where we are without working together. And wouldn't be where we are without having hope that keeps us growing. So I stop there. Yeah, I know. I mean, it's been quite a long session already on Zoom, isn't it? And there's something in the chat already about the Q&A about, you know, how hard it is to sustain ourselves with so much screen time. So I was just going to keep you very short. And the only thing I'm tired of is just to say thank you and, you know, just massive appreciation for all the work the team are doing in putting this together. And yeah, and to hope as well for taking the time to be with us also. So yeah, just thank you very, very much. Lots of appreciation. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much, both. And yeah, apologies for those of you who didn't get your question asked to panelists. It's always a bit of a tricky one to try and bring some questions and knowing that we won't be able to necessarily cover all of the questions. But it was a really inspiring space to be here with both of you, G, and hope. So thank you so much for making the time for that. I want to mention for participants that you will get the recording and the resources from this sent to you in the next week. So don't worry about that. And I want to also really, really thank Christian, Katie, and the real tech today, and all of our interpreters. I know it was a difficult one with with internet connections and mics and things and really, really appreciating your presence and your work today. It is such an important thing to be able to make all those spaces and discussions more accessible by offering interpretation. And I'm aware it wasn't the easiest one today. So thank you so much. And yeah, again, one more time, G and hope. Thank you so, so much for all of your wisdom and reflections and thoughts. It was really humbling to to be part of this discussion with both of you. So thank you. And wherever you all are in the world, I hope you have a great rest of your day and maybe a restful gentle and slow one. Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Goodbye. Bye. Bye.