 Hello, let me know when we're live. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to be introducing these two incredible humans. And then we'll be engaging in a keynote conversation with Emily Mann. And you all were so quick to your seats. And now we're live. Great. So thank you so much, everyone, for joining us for the final session of the main sessions for the first national now. Conversation on Parent Support in the Performing Arts. It is my absolute pleasure to introduce on our left here Mary Hodges, who is the Assistant Director of Slave Play. She has participated in the Lincoln Center Directors Lab. And it has a prolific work on her resume as both an actor and a director in TV film and the stage. And she will be engaging in conversation with our keynote guest, who most of you, I'm sure, know of her extensive work. This is Emily Mann, the Artistic Director of MacArthur Theater Center. She was just recently inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. It is my pleasure to be able to introduce her to you, because I'm going to be reading her credentials, which I admire so much. But in addition, her reputation throughout the theater industry has been in creating a legacy of support. And so we invited her here today to speak on her experiences. Emily is a multi-award-winning playwright and director in her 30th and final season as the Artistic Director and Resident Playwright of the MacArthur Theater Center. During her tenure, Emily wrote 15 new plays and adaptations directed over 50 productions, produced nearly 180 plays and musicals, supported the work of emerging and legendary playwrights, received the Tony Award for Outstanding Regional Theater, commissioned the Tony Award-winning play, Vanya in Sonia and Masha in Spike by Christopher Durang, and opened the beautiful Roger S. Berlin Theater. I'm just going to go through a few of the select awards. The Tony, the Trauma Desk, Outer Critics Circle Nominations. This past June, she was awarded the TCG Visionary Leadership Award. And in November, she was inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. You can clap for that. Woo! I know. I know. She was like, make it informal, make it a conversation. And I was like, OK, but I'm also going to make it about you. Surprise. So my engagement with Emily is that I have jumped at the chance to attend any panel that was within driving distance where she spoke. And finally, I was able to connect with her at TCG and get her contact information. And so it is my greatest pleasure to welcome Mary and Emily here for this keynote conversation on parent support and the performing arts. And thank you so much for what you've done and what you're willing to talk about. Thank you. I think Emily needs a nap after that listing, right? And speaking of which, let's just start with, you've been busy this year. I have. What is it like, before we really dive in here, to receive, to be accepted into the American Theater Hall of Fame? What was that like? I have to tell you that it was one of the sweetest moments of my life. And part of what made it so sweet was having, it's frightening to go back into being a freelance artist again. So to have that at the time, it couldn't have been better. But also because my dear colleague, Mara Isaacs, whom I worked with for 18 years and has just gone off and made her own extraordinary producing career, had just become a superstar with A. Tony's for Haystown. And she introduced me and burst out sobbing during it, during the introduction. So it was a very emotional night. And to be the honor of being, I looked around the room and looked at all of those names, the giants of the world theater. And to be thinking that I was going to join them was just one of the most amazing feelings I've ever had. So I just sort of took a big exhale. Well, congratulations. Thank you so much. I'm going to read a quote. And I'm citing an article from Princeton Info. Does that sound right? Dated September 23, 2009. OK. Quote, being a mother definitely made me a better artist, no question about it. You understand the human race by having a child and feeling that much love. It's just astounding. It affects my writing, my mentoring, and my giving to the education department and my raising money, all of it. So kind of if we were to do, since we're inducted into the Theater Hall of Fame, and a retrospective, if you will. And when you spoke those words in 2009 and being a mother artist, reflecting back and thinking about that to where you are and your son, where he is in this world now, what comes to your mind? My grandson. Yes. He's two and a half. And I'm completely besotted with him. I totally agree with myself. OK, great. I think being a mother, because we all, as artists, work from our experiences and our hearts and our guts and our mind. And until I had a child, I mean, that level of love, I had had great love affairs in my life, and I also adored my parents. But that love is so particular. And so much of the human race does experience that love in their lives. And I felt like I had actually finally joined the party and that I could speak to people in a different way, having had that experience. I mean, it's like when you're a virgin. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, right? And I think motherhood, parenthood, is the same. And let me tell you, I think if you were enjoying being a parent, just wait till you're a grandparent. It's just mind-blowingly wonderful. It's that level of love, and it's different. And you understand the generations, and you understand aging, and you understand legacy, and you understand the need to give and how to give in a completely different way that is so enlivening and enriching. And that's gone into my work. And that's gone into my work. I mean, I don't know about you. I just think no experience is wasted when you're in the theater, right? Whether it's tragic or whether it's joyous or anything in between, we put all that into our work, right? But I would say this is the biggest is being a parent and grandparent for me. So then we'll segue right into what advice would you give your younger self, the mother, director, playwright, producer, when the support for your work at the time may have been lacking or their places wouldn't? Well, I can say it from being on this side of it that I would tell my younger self it's going to be all right, that you can be a good parent and a creator and worker in the theater. I know that two things happen. I always seem to have tech when my son had an important event in his life, either my own tech or someone's in the theater that I needed to be at or a dress rehearsal. And I kept thinking, what am I missing? What am I missing? And what is this costing him? And then when my son met his wonderful wife, my daughter-in-law, he said, I love her because she is as passionate about her work as you are. I didn't want to marry someone who wanted it to be all about me. I wanted what you had. And it was like, wow. I mean, because I didn't know whether that worked or not. And then my daughter-in-law, maybe she's just a very smart woman, but she is a very smart woman. But she said to me just before they got married, she said, I knew I could marry your son because of how much he loves you. And she said, I've always judged men by the relationships they've had with their mothers. And he loves and admires you. So I feel like I'm OK. And again, you know, tears. So that's what I would tell myself. It's going to be OK. And there were hard times. His adolescence nearly did me. He needed me more then than when he was three or five. That's not encouraging. My son's nine. And that's when I realized I had to rearrange things at the theater so that I did not miss a dinner with him. And I had to lock it down. I could not let him out. And I just took he was going to run off the cliff. I just took him by the scruff of the neck and said, no, you don't. And I got my mother involved, grandparent. Oh, my. She was a great grandmother. She sat him down. She said, oh, no, no. No, no, no. And he listened to her when he couldn't listen to me or my husband. But it can be done. And that's what I would tell my younger self. And it's going to be good. And he is not going to feel like you chipped him at all, quite the contrary. And my mother used to say that a happy, fulfilled mother is a good mother. Can somebody write that down for me, please? Is that in the archives? So then let's go into, because I'm thinking all about what you're saying, dropping some gems. Emily Mann. So then let's go into what are one of the earliest memorable experiences as a parent in the theater? Oh, interesting. Well, there are two that just flashed. One was my son was like two weeks old nursing. And I had a reading of my then new play, Execution of Justice at La Mama. And I thought, and I was going to be directing in. And I thought, well, how am I going to do this? And you have to understand, this is like 1983. So it's still a little bit, not quite the 60s, but people in the room all grew up there. So I basically slapped him on my breast and directed with him nursing. Because I couldn't take too many breaks, because it was a new play, and it was a mess. And I had to get it together for the reading. No one batted an eye, the milk didn't dry, and AT was perfectly happy. So that's one I remember. Another one I remember is I directed for the first time after that reading, three months after he was born. And it was for Mark Lemos at Hartford Stage. And he'd never had a director who would, well, I think I may have been the first woman who directed there, but he'd never had a mother certainly directing there. And he said, well, what do you need? And I said, I'm going to need to bring a woman with me. We'll have to schedule the breaks around my nursing schedule. I'll need another apartment with a crib. He went, done. That was the first and best time I ever had. But it was because he was a good friend, and he wanted me there. And then he used to call it the Emily Clause. When other women would come to direct there, he knew to ask, well, what do you need? And by the way, I did not pay for that extra apartment or that crib. I did pay for the childcare. But and it worked. I could do it. The third one is the great Alan Schneider. The Alan Schneider Award at TCG. He was directing at the Guthrie when I was an apprentice there. And women weren't directing at that point. And I met him and told him that that's what I wanted to be doing. And he said, well, you know. And he used the British term. A pram in the hallway is a death to art. Basically, no woman. If you want to be a director, you cannot be a mother. And he was so wrong. I liked proving him wrong. But those were the days when. And I'm just seeing so many brilliant people in here with their babies and bumps. So I'm really glad that no one has told you that, or if they have, you haven't paid any attention. It totally works. And it just, oh, goodness. Who is that over there? Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my, hi, darling. So then this is not on my list. Good. Are you then still like, are you surprised when you hear other parents talk about the struggle that not receiving that support when they're offered jobs or hesitant to take a job? I was just. Oh, gosh, no. Not surprised in the least. I mean, there was no support. I had to fight for it every place I went when I was freelancing. And then at MacArthur, we made, you know, I wanted to make sure that it was a child-friendly theater, a family-friendly theater. And I wanted to make sure everyone had what I had to fight so hard for and make sure that people felt very supported in it. So obviously, for staff, childcare, leave, and all of that, but we set up dressing rooms. When there's a nursing mother, we set up places to either pump or nurse. When people come to, you know, just depends on how far along you are, what your needs are, to make sure that we hear what people need and we do our best to help them out. So even when Nicolari Parker came just eight years ago, she had her two kids over the summer. And she said, what am I going to do with them while I'm working in our wonderful production stage? My manager said, well, my kids love the Y camp. And we can figure out, you know, company management can get them there or pick them up. Well, we're always working to see how to make it work. I'm often told we're a rarity. I'm not surprised to hear that. But I think sometimes you just have to tell people what you need. Often they will say no. And then you have to have a plan B or C. So I'm always thinking, so how can we get that word surprise taken away? Yes. And I think it is like having a conversation. And if en masse, all of the parent artists, you know, spoke up, and this is a start by having a summit and we need to probably have them twice a year to make enough noise to get it noticed. I think that's right. This is so important what you're doing and so exciting. And I think the more it gets into the conversation, I mean, a lot of people don't think about it who are in charge because it never was part of their lives. They never had to think about it. If they were guys and they had families, then it wasn't their issue in those days, right? So there was someone at home taking care of things in my day, anyway. Then there are a whole lot of folks that are childless who run theaters. We know many of them. It doesn't reach their consciousness. I mean, so having the conversation is the beginning, I think. And say with Mark, he was really happy to be a pioneer in this. He felt very good about himself. Give them the opportunity to feel that they're doing the right thing. So you mentioned your mother as a support system. What other support systems did you have in place? Because I'm guessing your son, at the time when you went over to the MacArthur, was seven? Six. Six? Yes. And then I was a single mom. I was no longer married to his dad. So I was a single mother running a theater. And really, I did it because I wanted to keep my son. So it could not fail. So I did not have a partner at home supporting me. I went with a huge cut in salary and had been saving since, I don't know how I knew this, but I was saving since I was a kid, for childcare. Because I always knew I wanted a child. I always knew I was going to do something with my life. So I spent a great deal of my salary on childcare. So I had everything from living people for a while, and then part-time workers when he was more in school. But I, and I got older, but that was a support. And then I would say I had women friends who were incredible. And some of them would take their kids with my son and do after-school things together so that I didn't feel bad. Because I couldn't get home till six. And then I had a fantastic second husband. So I think you've already answered this. But this is like the part two of that is, so taking all of that support, how did it play a significant role to where you are today? I mean, I think. Well, you know what's interesting? I was just interviewed about mentorship. Because I'm a mentor to all, it's one of the things I care most about in my life. And everyone says, well, who were your mentors? And I think I didn't have any. And that's why I believe so much in it. I want to give to people what I didn't have. And I didn't have the support. I was always told what I couldn't do. Except there was Mark. He was the one and only. Then I had to fight to get what Mark gave me. So that's why I mentioned him, because that's the positive. The idea of mentor, that word makes, when it first started being used all the time, it made me laugh. Because I thought, everyone wants a mentor. Well, sure. But then I was, oh yeah. I didn't have it. So I do a lot of mentoring within the theater itself, with the staff and with the interns and apprentices, but also in the profession. But I didn't expect help. And I didn't get much. I fought really hard. But hopefully, because and my generation did fight hard, there are more places that will give you what you need contractually than when I started. But I don't know that. I just know we do. But I think there are more places open to it than in the old days. I'm not sure. Do you know? You probably know. Rachel probably knows, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Yes. Exactly right. Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, sure. So you spoke a bit about just a moment ago about what you've set up in place because of the lack of support maybe you ever see at the university. Well, we're not at the university. We're in a building at the university. But we're not for profit. The campus. The theater. Yeah. Right. So and now you're setting an example, a legacy of what other institutions can do and of what other smaller theaters can do. Because I think some theaters think, oh, our budget isn't like the public or isn't like the signature. So we can't do much. But there's always something that you can do. Like I've brought my son. If there's a space, any little space in the back that I can bring my son and he can have his headphones on and his tablet, I take the space. So I was like, oh, I was like, oh, we're so sorry. You know, it's just this corner. I was like, oh, we take the corner. That's fine. We'll take the corner. Absolutely right. And it's also shifting attitudes of where you go. Yes. So that I work with a stage manager who actually was able to be a mom because she worked for 28 years with me at the theater. And it was all about when she was pregnant, we made nap rooms. When she was nursing, she had her own place to go. When her kids were going to school and camp, how did we work that all out? So I have this thing with her. I say, I want every single parent for you to have a conversation with them, whether they're acting, directing, designing, composing, whatever it is, that you find out what their needs are. And she just does that. But if you come into a situation where you're freelancing, you can also then, if you're directing or that you say to the stage manager, this is a child-friendly room. You can set rules. Or you can ask these questions. I mean, if you came into her mind with a child and gave me out the corners, well, yeah. Just tell us what you need. But I think, again, it's communication. I think more people will be open when you know what you need and not expecting that they will offer it. And everyone is different. And everyone parents differently. And everyone needs different things. And so you need to help the management understand what you need. Amen. I want to just open it if that's OK. Does anyone have any questions or comments based on what we're just talking about? Distraction versus, like, in my bringing my son into creative spaces, it's like this dose of light that just brings everybody up and more energized. And the work is actually as productive and maybe better. How do we reframe that idea that it would be a distraction? What do you usually, what is usually your role in the room? Or is it change all the time? It changes a lot. But he is most welcome in my theater company's room. And we just have a child-friendly place. So are you a director? A performer and writer. And a performer and writer. Right, right, right. Yeah. I know. It's interesting. If you're not a parent, it's hard to explain. But for example, I remember doing, I do yoga for the first half hour of a rehearsal. And so I just had, and there was a husband and wife with three kids in that company. And I said, well, why don't you bring your kids to yoga? Well, you can't imagine how much we learned from those kids because they have perfect everything, right? That's how you do a down dog. OK. So I agree with you that they bring so much light and life and energy and beauty into the room. I don't know how you change it. I just know how wonderful it is when you do. And my guess is, if you're a writer, performer, and you have a good relationship with the director, I mean, there's some rooms that are very hierarchical, mine are not. So I don't know. It's navigating it. Yeah. And also assuring them that if there's a distraction that you'll find a way to get them out or to another place and you'll take care of it, just making sure that they know that the work will still get done. I think that's what's, for people who don't know kids, that's what scares them. I know I've been on both sides of it because I'm actor, director. And there was a point at one point where I thought I couldn't. But then I got tired of like, I'm not sitting at home and not doing this job. Right. And so I kind of phrased it in a way where I didn't necessarily ask, unless I felt it was inappropriate material and content you didn't need to be around. But I would say I don't have child care in place for this rehearsal. My son will be coming. And this is what he'll have to do. Yes, that's good. So I didn't ask permission for that. And it was fine. And actually, once he's there in the place, and they saw that, oh, they would say, oh, he was so well-behaved. And I could take offense to that. Like, why wouldn't he be well-behaved? Yeah, right. Because like you said, most people may have their perception, oh, a child. It's going to be in rehearsal. It's just like taking a child to the theater, right? Or most recently, I was busy doing something in rehearsal hall. And there was a class trip to, where did they go? Mark, there was a dance company at Lincoln Center. And my son has dance classes. And the dance teacher had tickets. And I had to send a friend with him because I couldn't go. And one of the other parents went. And she told me, oh, there was people sitting in front of our kids, shushing our kids and telling them. So there is still a set of people that think children should mind their place in the arts. And that's a made, they're responding to the dances. Why shouldn't they be allowed to respond? They got their ticket, just like you got your ticket. Go move somewhere else. But these are people who are patrons of the odds. And they're going and they're shushing children. So there's a whole culture that has to be educated and re-taught. Yes. And in a rehearsal room, we have to be helpful to people who don't know. For example, one of the last shows I did, Rachel Nix, was nursing. And so we had nursing rooms and all that sort of stuff. But she was getting into a different schedule. And so she was thinking she had to miss notes. I thought, miss notes? No. And so I said, why don't you nurse during notes? Just sitting there? And I said, is everyone OK with that? And it's interesting. The men who were parents were all going, yes, great. Everything. And then the one kid who was just graduated from Julia went, you mean? Yeah. And then we all realized it would be so good for him. So she nursed during notes. And then it was like, well, that's just what we do here. And it was, you know, it took about a second for him to get cool with it. But it was a first for a lot of people. Yeah. So that gave everyone some food for thought about conversations, conversations. Yes. Any other thoughts, comments? I just want to affirm this idea of, this is me, speaking of showing them young, because we've done pal conversations in universities, where we're like, we know you're not thinking about this yet, but you are someone you know well. And you can see how hungry these young people are to know that they're going to be validated in their options in the future. And so they have such an appetite to know how to make a supportive space. And I've heard stories now of how like third level ASMs have known that this is a human rights issue and have advocated for parents in the room. And so it goes back to this intergenerational conversation of expose them young. And then the strange behavior will be the people who don't know how to handle it. And so we flip the behavior there. So just thank you for that story. It's important. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Questions? All right. A comment. Just that what has kind of clicked for me today in both in the earlier conversations and in this conversation is that the thing that is being so often framed up as a problem is actually the solution to so many of our problems. Right. That to have children and parents and grandparents present at all stages and all phases of theater creation and theater performance is the solution to the problem that has been posed was like, how do we get people to value theater, to participate in the theater, a new generation of theater goers, and people that from all walks of life and of all faiths and creeds, whatever, that we have to, it starts in the creation and we just want to make the space not just open to but inviting of parents and children, then we're actually thinking holistically about community. Yes. And it's interesting you also bring up grandparents because what I'm finding, well, what happened with Rachel is that her mom decided to come and help. And so she, the mom would come during the weekend. The husband would come during the weekend. So the grandmother was in and out of the rehearsal room as well with the baby. And we would stop for, oh, yes, it's time for nursing. And then grandma would come and then she would watch a scene. And then she brought all her friends to the theater. So having the generations is just so life-giving. So beautiful. So what I failed to mention to say when I was up there is that we can be a solution to this as well. We are putting together packages with Pal for institutions to hire us to come and have childcare for rehearsals and have childcare for matinees, like we said. But in the rehearsal studio, that's next door. So you can have them in the room if you'd like. You can have them next door if you'd like. We provide all of the accoutrements, all the things that is necessary there. And then the parent can go next door and see the kid. So we have tiers of packages that we can sell institutions and we can work with you on having childcare right there for everyone involved, not just the actors, for anybody involved in that production. So if you have any questions about that, come and ask Rachel or I. I have a question related to that. So because we work indoors a lot, what happens with kids in outdoor time for anyone or anyone? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. How do kids get enough outdoor time? I would answer that. With our company, we always have a couple of sitters on and we have enough sitters to have a two to one ratio. So if you would want a sitter to take your kid to the park or take them on a walk, they absolutely could do that. I would say. We're good. Five, seven minutes. Great. I was just curious, this is a question for both of you actually. If there was ever you were with an institution that instead of you having to ask for something, the institution was already like, this is what we provide or what do you want? And how was that experience? And how was that experience different than having to ask for a corner or having to ask for an apartment? There was, I can only speak of, I decided to go out of town, take a change the first time I decided to go out of town to do a show. And I was like, oh, I have to do this show. It's not like my phone was ringing, I was getting parts in New York and I wanted to do a full production. So I decided to do the best of enemies down at Florida Rep and downtown Fort Myers. And so, yeah, and so at the time I didn't know that I could ask for certain things. I said, okay, I'm just gonna take this job, I'm gonna find somebody to sublet the apartment. And I asked and I begged my mom to take him for seven weeks. My mother's in Virginia. And so I don't have any family here with me. So it really is myself and my son. So I like did all the research and I was like, oh, he's gonna go to my childhood school back in a small county in Virginia. Everything happened by email, by phone. I got him registered, transferred, got him set up with my mom, I took the train. So this is what I told the theater I'm gonna take the plane out of Virginia instead of out of New York. And I took the Amtrak down, got him settled, I had to get there at a certain time. And then the next day he started school, sent him off to school and then I went straight to the airport. So then let's fast forward. An actor friend of mine said, oh, well I went to this theater in the Midwest and then I asked for a trip to see my son and they paid for it and then I asked for this and then I asked for this. I was like, my job, I was like, you did? And they gave it to you. She's like, well, yeah, they did. And then she said, I did have a relationship with them but I still ask for those things. She's like, you totally need to ask for that next time. So there was a next time. I went back down, they offered for me to go down and do disgrace. So then I spoke to the, I said, well, I will say going back they did research because I contemplated bringing him with me. There was that discussion. I think he was second grade. And so they did all of this research for me about schools and all of this stuff and I looked at some of them and then Florida has a whole complicated system with their schools. And so I was like, no, not gonna answer them. And so the next time what I decided to do was like, I'm gonna ask for train fare. I had to go out of my way to drop him off to grandmoms. So I did that. Oh, and I did ask for a trip. I was so proud of myself. I did not get the trip but I got the train fare. And that was just I think enough to push to say at least to put it on their radar that they're gonna be parents. I may be the first or maybe not. That may ask for things and they have every right to ask for things and to compensate. And I think that was a big deal for that theater to compensate me for the train fare. That is a good thing you did. Yes. Yes, for everyone in this room actually that you got that. But sometimes they will give more. And once you make the first step, then you go, well, actually what I need is. And what I found was I did not find it difficult to be on the road with my son even alone up until he needed to be in school school. He wasn't portable anymore after kindergarten. Yeah, yeah. Right? Because you can go any place and there's interesting childcare and there are these interesting crushes. There are all different kinds of places all over for all of that. But then once you get into school and having to enroll a child in school for a short period of time, that can get tough. Yeah, yeah. And that's where kind of like where I am now, like I just said no to not even go into the room to interview. No, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, and then also the conversation with your agencies and the management, if they're not on your team. And I keep having those same conversations with them. I'm like, look. I was like, he's older now. I was like, I can't go and take him, uproot him now and take him to Virginia, put him on grandma and grandma's getting older. And it's like, I can't do that right now. You know, it's like the critical. So you're staying in New York. Yeah, so now I have to now be careful about, okay, now I can't just up and say yes to this. I was like, maybe there's another opportunity that I'm looking for certain opportunities here. Come on, be on my team, get with it. Stop putting me in these positions to say, I have to say no. Right. What do you think? Well, I'm just thinking what is commutable also. It's not just the city. I mean, you can get into Connecticut. This is something that's out of state. These are jobs out of state. You could go to New Jersey. Yes, I can go, yes. Yes, I would love to come to New Jersey. Yes. But just jumping up and going to Florida. Florida is challenging. One time Arkansas and then somebody like Dallas was on the table for something. They have money than Dallas. Yes. They can do some stuff for you. Yes. But we'll often put in an extra airfare or you know, when we very much want somebody who's either dealing with say someone's in LA coming to MacArthur and either the performer or director needs to get home at least once or the partner needs to come. And so we, you know, you can start asking for things. And not everyone has the budget and sometimes we do and sometimes we don't, but we try. I just want to contribute a really brief story to this and then ask Emily a question. This is not me. This is not like a fake friend story. I have a close friend who is a director, a freelance director who booked a gig at a regional house and you know, a fairly big regional house. And there are a few people in the room who also know this mother who had the standard things she asked for to accommodate her with her kid. This is when her son, before he was in school, he was young and she asked for the larger apartment and the specific schedule for rehearsals, et cetera. And not only did they say no, they retracted the offer for her job. So however, this was just like a couple of years ago. Instead of accepting that and just being internally angry, she raised a stink and she basically was like, I just want you to know I'm not going to be quiet about this. I'm taking this to my agent. I may take it to a lawyer and I'm just wondering if you want to make that worth your trouble. Like is this the road we want to actually go down here or can we have a conversation? And I was really proud of her because it ended up working, she got the job, they conceded to a lot of stuff. They ended up repairing a lot of that when she got there and now she has a good relationship with this theater and that managing director learned a good lesson. But I wanted to put that in the room because even I honestly think in this day and age, don't even take no for an answer. I think there's always something that you can get. But yeah, even in this day and age, not only was it a no, it was a retraction of a job. And I'm like, how many people would not know that they could fight that? And she just happened to and she did, but you can and I think we all should. That's a great story. Yeah. And so, relatedly, but not really, my question for you, Emily, is it was very reassuring to hear what you would tell your sort of younger self about everything is going to be okay. And I'm just wondering kind of along those lines if there's anything that you look back and would do differently as a mother in the field. Well, gosh, you know, it's a perfect parent, right? So I'm sure there are a lot of things if I really looked back on it that I would rethink. But no, oddly, it's a nice feeling. I mean, given how it's all worked out though. Every once in a while, what I would do differently is I would beat myself up less about, oh my goodness, maybe I haven't done enough for him or maybe. I mean, sometimes when I was, you know, Princeton is sort of split between a university community and a suburban community. And let me tell you, the suburban moms would say some really cutting things to me about, oh, your son feels so alone and things like that. And I would absorb it and hurt a lot over it and worry about it a lot. And I think what I would tell my younger self now is that's their problem. And I look at her children now, they are not doing all that well. So, you know, you do your best. And I think, you know, I really made a mantra of what my mother said, you know, that a happy and fulfilled woman is a good mother. And if you're sitting at home blaming your child because you didn't do the job you really wanted to do, you didn't quite do your best at that job because you said, okay, I'm gonna send my assistant to tech or I'm not gonna do the full thing. And then you're beating yourself up for not being the artist you could have been. I mean, all those things, no, no, no, no. Kids are resilient. If they're loved, they're loved. If you're a happy, fulfilled woman, this is what you can give. So, I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes along the way in terms of the details. But I did keep my eye on the ball. And I also surrounded myself at MacArthur with extraordinary colleagues. And some amazing young women, one of them sitting right there. I mean, who just, we were there for each other. And, no, I think keep your eye on the ball. And, you know, love your work, do your work, love your child, and the rest will follow. I really believe that. Well, holy smokes. Yeah, just a huge thank you to these two brilliant women. I know that I could, I'm going to be grabbing them for more opportunities in the future. They've been warned. And just join us tonight for a happy hour. We're going to keep talking with Mary as well tonight at the Art New York theaters. And that'll be livestreamed as well. I just want to say a huge, huge thank you. She's ready to go. I would say a huge thank you to our partner, the public, again, for providing this space. What an incredible gift. Pleased to meet. Thank you so much to HowlRound Theater Commons for making this available to everyone. Thank you to Broadway babysitters for taking care of our children on site so that we could have lunch with them, bring the babies into the space. Welcome, baby. And thank you so much to the New 42nd Street Studios for being our child care sponsor because it's that sort of intentional giving that makes that work cohesive impossible just in the first place. So thank you all for coming. Join us for a happy hour. And child care grants for individuals and institutions December 15th deadline. That's administrative and artistic. All discipline, all gender grants. PAL awards to nominate family-friendly theaters that you know so that other parents can find them. And then the PAL membership so that we can start developing resources that really reach you. Just again, just a thank you if we could close out. Thank you. Mix and mingle and enjoy. They're gonna kick you out of the space but swap as many business cards as you can. I don't know. Rachel. Oh man.