 So welcome everybody it is the first oh the first wrong slide because we actually had a buff in Dublin see We should one time with professionals, but welcome. Anyways, we already introduced ourselves But I had more beer beer back then Those pictures are very old. They know they are very current. I had downloaded them from LinkedIn just yesterday If it if it is life on if it is life on LinkedIn then it is current so first we have a Couple of news from the leadership Already told you I am the community manager for the Octa project. This is actually a really new thing I've been appointed like two months ago before that Nico de Schesne had that position and He basically Handed over to me. He was one of the folks who actually Enabled me to grow into this role. So for the record again Thank you, Nico to me for making this possible and for helping the project over the last five years Having said that there are like two newbies in the organization One I explained already that is me the other one is mega night. I don't know is Megan around here now she's probably doing work and She serves as the advocacy chair, which means she takes care of all Outreach eat things and I take care of all the people she Things in case you like feel getting involved talking to talking to us signing up as a member Whatever you feel like we we could do to raise awareness or raise awareness in your organizations Please talk to us Do you want to take one? sure If you're interested in working on neat Yachto stuff, I gave a talk earlier today where I covered some of the material that is covered by this RFQ I Covered those in more detail in the talk this morning. This is funding available from the Yachto project to work on some specific problems we have and The time frame it for this is basically ASAP and if you need more details on that You would want to speak to Ross Burton wearing his hat as the Yachto project TSC member technical steering committee and There's more information at the URL on the bottom You should be able to find it on the front page of the Yachto project website, but it might be in the spinny thing It's what up? That's how it was described to me The spinny thing, okay So there's some new members for the Yachto project EX EIN which Exene Exene, okay I'm not super familiar with them, but they've been great They're doing some security fancy stuff for embedded devices and they're from Italy. Thank you for signing up and Qualcomm has signed up as another member. So that is very good platinum. Yes, very good We love platinum members. We also like our silver members bootlin console co and the smile And again formally pointing out there are others too that also have signed up Which for various reasons just do not want to be mentioned So in case you have money to give away for No good reason and don't even want people to talk about it. Give it to us. Okay, we will promote you But if you don't want to be promoted, we'll take your money cool stuff Do you want to do this one? Okay, I'll do this one We ran the Yachto project death day on Monday, which was an in-person mostly presentation event But for for you to like take something home with you and actually get your hands dirty David Rainer provide prepared Two sets of self-paced training resources You can do on your like own whenever you feel like whenever you want to get More involved with hands-on experience. It's two things. It's the depth tool Stuff and it is a new class on user space, which features a lot of topics that are like relevant for people getting started and everyday tasks and it is reachable under that very ugly link speaking of virtual learning and Training we are planning or we will have another virtual Yachto project summit in the end of November as far as I know It's it's an a thing that we've done a couple of times already two days of interactive and presentations Everybody will be there for you to just like explain interact Yeah, you know it already sign up. It is super cheap essentially and We love to see you there too Open embedded is Basically an organization of people who are working with the open embedded build system and this organization has existed since circa 2007 Individuals can join it by mailing a short bio to board at open embedded or or look at this webpage that will say the same thing We have been running a workshop around Fosdham when it's in person and we ran one this spring It was very successful sold out and we're planning to do it around Fosdham again We're not going to say a hundred percent because we need to know when Fosdham is scheduled and make sure that We can get people to travel and show up. So there's a little bit of fuzziness there For people who've been around for a long time. We had a German EV for a while and we have made progress dismantling that It is very challenging Working with an organization where you get papers in a language. You do not understand and thank you so much Yon Simone for helping us with that What do we already know what what people already know? Yeah, because we said it allowed on Monday we are super proud to publicly Declare that the LTS support period of the LT support period is Officially and permanently extended to four Years that is the news And you should also thank the members of the Yachto project for making that decision and spending the money to make it happen LTS releases are not free They do cost a substantial amount of money to keep them running and make sure that people are looking for the CBEs and Bug fixes that are needed. So please thank your Yachto project members I think we're good and With that we now get to the fun part of the boff. Yes, we throw chocolates. Oh For four questions, so it works like this Of course it works like this whoever has the first question or wants to be the first raises Quick as possible Nobody knows Nobody knows but once we find out we tell you No Yeah, we need a runner. We need a runner Hey, he has it already Okay, so my question was related to the last slide around LTS So I'm kind of curious on kind of why extending it to four years and Kind of the motivations because my experience so far has been I've been working with the project that's Been on Dunfell for like the four years. Yeah at the end of it And like what we have seen so far is that like the actual BSP maintainers are not necessarily tagging along Yes There are some just so we could maintain the core layers For four years and when you get past four years It's going to get Exponence exponentially difficult to maintain them There are project members that will sell you longer-term support contracts and we don't want to step on Members that who are actually charging money to do this We're basically trying to make it as easy as possible for people to use the Yachto project But at the same time it is a collaborative project and you know They're limits to what we can do and you go past four years and it gets hard So the reason for moving from two to four is because two was too short for a lot of people So a lot of BSP layers, you know, even now are not at Kirkston yet, right? but From the other end of it Having it go to six or eight or ten right like Dunnville is actually quite Difficult to fix all of the CVs at this point and the reason is that all the upstream projects keep moving forward And they will not backport their their fixes to all of their stuff And we don't have the resources to do it either and so then we we just end up with that technical debt So our advice is actually every two years grab the new belt yet or whatever. Sorry every time a new LTS is available move to it yeah, and On that on that occasion, let's give a big shout out to Steve Sackerman Who is when he's not brewing his own beer and grinding coffee doing an excellent job as the LTS maintainer? Wonder if you woke up for this. I don't think so Next question, okay, this is gonna be a long throw buckle up. I Tried if or effort That's kind of a follow-up question I don't know if you've mentioned it, but the LTS You're still releasing it every two years and not every four years now, right every four years now Okay, so no no Okay, we have every two years. We have a new LTS, but it stays for four years, right exactly so don't fell will basically go into zombie mode next spring and Kirkston will stay around as a like as an adult and Whatever crazy name Richard comes up with in the next spring release Will then be like the new kid on the block with a lifespan of four years and Kirkston has another two years ahead perfect Yeah, don't wait Anyone else come on chocolate Ask ridiculous questions except for the one being asked Sorry, I'm sorry. Okay. Actually. I'm not sorry because it really looked funny So I think it was asked this morning as well at nine o'clock. What about supporting github git lab web-based workflows request based workflows, right? Can I give a politically incorrect question? Answer Okay, the answer is We do not have the resources to follow up with more than one submission channel. So if somebody cares about those ways in such a strong Feeling to make it that it needs to be possible Sign up dedicate engineering and make it possible currently we have a That's a known supply of developers that we do not want to lose because without them we would be not here and We we understand that outreach is impossible is important but Not at the cost of of throwing everything away that you already have Plus I don't want to sound like the old next fear that knows everything but let's say we are talking about fairly advanced technology here in some places and You're free to feel insulted right now but I Think figuring out how to send a patch is okay ish if you want to make code that deploys to millions of devices I'm also told that chat GPT can send email for you But it tries it does try Yeah, it's a difficult problem And we are painfully aware that a lot of people culturally are not happy Sending patches via email and we talk about it. That's why I said it is a politically incorrect answer. Yeah, I know next Is it okay? We got one from the internet One was good. It says what is the distro etymology for Pocky and which Major list Linux distribution is the Pocky reference distribution most like It is like a Japanese form of chocolate because that's actually where the name comes from Pocky Yeah, Pocky sticks Exactly, and it is like No distribution because it is not a distribution. Let me let me know. No, it's a reference distributor Pocky is a chocolate stick It is not a Linux distribution, but it helps you to create your own No with by by ingesting chocolate. I Just don't agree man No, it's a reference distribution. It's a reference chocolate If you want I Would answer that as saying it's probably most like debian because a lot of the patches That get applied to recipes to fix things were copied from debian in some senses So it might have a slight flavor of debian with sis five in it. Where's the mic but That's just sort of an off-the-cuff answer. I mean it basically is its own distribution. Can I give an answer? Is there any distribution left that is using any scripts and not system D because that's what Pocky is So it's not like anything else out there So when is Pocky gonna start using system D as a default when's Pocky gonna start using system D as a default never Famous last words Yeah, I mean, it's a hard question and Since five in it is another thing that might shape your opinion of what distro it is most like probably Did you come up with that to yourself or? Seriously, wow you can read email One day you have to explain it to me This price chat GPT can't email for him Huh, okay And more people ask us questions anything you've ever wanted to know If nobody asks, then I'll start asking stupid questions and you don't want that We'll start asking Yeah, give him some chocolate because I asked him a question No, we that's perfect. We already asked you a question Not specifically a question for you, but a question for the audience pretty much whom of us people in the room use system D with the Octo and whom uses Okay, keep keep your keep your keep your arms up Keep your arms up Thanks. These are a lot of hands as far as I've seen you just says five in it Okay, okay, so the question probably is why is it not the default exactly, okay So it is like this if it wasn't the default Nobody would realize it once it breaks I'm gonna be brave and pull on the record that I do want to switch pocky to system D and pocky or conflict is his wife, but I can hear the hissing from Richard Crosswalk oceans So I think that's what I think to do but obviously Reasons but photos of that Survey would be useful evidence I'm gonna take another one. Do you want to erase your hand again as the only? admitting system five user It doesn't count. Oh, yeah, Alexander also, okay, Alex, please would the real Alexander, please stand up Please stand up. Okay. They all know they own the only the only System five user in the room. Sorry But you can get another chocolate for it I will say that I have talked to people who use sys five in it because system T system D based distros Tend to be too big to fit in Q-Spy and that is an actual interesting problem. Yes Yeah, I'm just Yeah, I think that's an aberration and we need to think about that and If I was talking to Linux for space people, I would suggest they look at a net systems very carefully So I have another question for the audience How many of you are using a Release older than Dunfell It's okay, you can admit it. We won't Who knows of people using something older than Dunfell? I Got a support mail last week that said can you help us upgrade from sumo to space? Yeah all right, I Have to ask that question because The numbers are getting better than they have but it's still From a security point of view, it's terrifying Okay, I have a question. I know I know you have already answered so basically you don't really give a shit Sorry This is for the git lab versus patch mailing No, so if we could do a raise of hands of system D where I think the outcome was kind of known How many in here would stop contributing to open embedded if you were not using Send mail by patches. I'm interested because it sounds like it's the majority, but Yeah, you could do that as well, but it's not it's both questions. Yeah, they're not overlapping Yeah, yeah, okay. Who would start contributing? But but maybe start contributing would mean that you refuse to send mails and That's again, it leaves a big gray zone because maybe there's a lot of people That are agile enough to adapt But have strong preferences but not refuse to do work Because it sounds like you say that there are core members and people would just leave the project If they you shut down the patch by The fundamental problem is code reviews So not everyone especially the people that you might want or that kind of do drive by code reviews like like Kim Who are so busy? They're not gonna have time unless it's right in an inbox and they can look at it very quickly If they need to go to a website and click on your specific one, they might not review it Yeah So the thing about both git lab and github style reviews though is is that if you want somebody specifically to review something You put their name on it They get an email in their box and then at worst it's clicking on something but you do in fact get the diff As a part of the email as well So what I'm all I'm saying is is is that is that if people need to review it and their names are Albeit added to it. They will get an email And the Linux kernel does this by putting them in the CC and it's been this way forever Okay, here's the problem as a person who does a lot of open-source stuff I've got 400 to 600 open-source projects that I follow and all of those go to my gmail and I can sit in the morning with my cup of coffee with a phone and look at my gmail I can look at it on my iPad. I can look at it through mutt. I can look at it through whatever, okay? now Every vendor that I touch wants me to use their form and So now I've got 8,000 forums. I have to go look at And I have to have all those tabs open in order to get notifications unless I'm lucky and they send it to mail and so on right I Don't have the time or energy to follow every single one of these places. So right now you're saying git lab But can we have github to can you do discord to you wait, can you also do get her wait? Could you We've just said that if we've just we've just said that an email will be sent So in fact you would still have those emails and we were just talking about one not many So the the suggestion the suggestion the suggestion is is moving to a different way Not many different ways so and I also want to point out that that One of the problems that we have an open embedded is there's there's a few people doing a mountain of work yourself included And people are burning out Unwrapping people in order to start helping the easier you can make it the better now What that means is change for the people who are already doing a lot of work But if you can on ramp people Faster and using tools they're already familiar with it makes it that much easier to ultimately get people in to actually start Offloading you so you can do things so I get your you're comfortable with your way of doing things But I would I would urge you to be open to something that allows people to help you more easily Yeah, I understand with that to the point We're trying to make the rest of this conversation to after the ball Because it's gonna it'll go on forever the one thing the one thing I will close this with is I do not want to see the project Use a proprietary workflow. Yeah, because I was around when it was using bitkeeper and when bitkeeper went away it was tremendously painful and Really did affect the project's ability to work for a year or so while we sorted out the next Distributed version control system, so I am not a fan of proprietary workflows at all But that said I believe GitLab is open and you can't self-host So I think that's why it was it was the one brought up that if you're gonna have that conversation with me You should have that background and moving on. Does anyone have a question? Yes in the back. Okay, that that that is unfair That is so unfair that Nishant can't come up and fetches chocolate This is more a question for the for the entire group who uses crops and do you find it useful and Who doesn't use crops So Nishant, maybe you should describe How you want to use crops and see who would like to do that? I mean let's let rather than talk about a specific thing. Let's talk about the general thing, right? So the common complaint we have among our users are Introduction so I work for TI and we have the infamous meta-arago that we create as a distribution on top of york-to-layer And lot of our products and customers kind of take derivatives out of that add their layers and create products The typical challenge that we have are especially customers with maybe one or two engineers kind of range Who are not very familiar with the opto so? Bill systems right favorite thing every package dependency When we started recommending documentation to read and that's been a disaster people forget to install one package They have a different version of the distro things have never worked The solution that we found was to use crops. We started using crops as a container for doing build systems both For our customers and in our build environment. So we have a bill form too And that has saved our life quite a bit. I'm kind of curious is the anyone else in this group who actually use it and Do you find it useful any ideas that you think it can help improve? Yeah Mario Mario Just just wait for the mic and get some chocolate Just to share my experience at BMW we use something that I think it's very similar to crops Internally because I think that the same reasons that you mentioned We want developers to have a reproducible environment to run builds and that's pretty much and without host contamination I mean limited host contamination limited to what's available on the container and that's pretty much why we use this approach Unfortunately, I think what we use internally Preceeds crops No, no, I think we started using that in 15 yes Okay, so conflicting dates. Yeah, I mean, but yeah, I Suppose it's a similar concept and that's pretty much what we The concern that we have is reproducibility in some kind of environment that the developers can use without messing up with system dependencies and stuff like that I want to ask the actual question, which is how many people are using containers as your build system Okay, so how many of you are rolling your own containers? Okay, why Right, so anyway, I sorry. That's that I know it's a it's a facetious question. So it is simple, right? But honestly like This is a hundred man hours or more a person hours or more right that we have all wasted because you recreated your own So hold on one second. Okay So one of the things that was needed in crops or the crops containers that we have now was a way to extend it And it wasn't that easy and so I'm just going to plug again We've got a new effort moving forward, which is very much inspired by TI's request to Generate your own build containers, right? So now there's a for those of you who are, you know, doing your own thing You might look at a way to You know go on to something that's going to be standardized and supported in everything Instead of having technical data. So, you know, I will let you respond though and Tim and Pidge had a talk on that on Monday Okay, my my comment is simply that I roll my own But I think that's putting it a bit hard because I basically just look at the quick start guide I do that in a container and and that's it. So I have a dog a file. It's basically even its multiple file It's more or less like five of five commands or something like that That just works and and going to crops is like exploding to a complexity of times Thousands of something but for nothing the problem I think it I think if if we put what is in the quick start guide in a simple dog a file and Had that as an alternative a lot of people would use it. I guess But maybe it's true This is exactly what's in the Yachto base container in the Yachto builder So, what did we add we added the build the ability for it to automatically go into a mode that can use bit bake The other thing is I'm going to guarantee That half of you are doing something wrong in terms of user ID and GID and things like that So there's problems with using containers That are very very hidden and so we already went through that and made things a little bit better So to claim that it's a thousand times harder get pulled Crops slash pocky you watch you're done cards It's it's even fat and it's in the getting started guide as well read it anyway, but Tim. Yeah, Mario had his hand Well, okay, let's keep rotating because we're running low on time Yeah, if the problem is merely that the tools on your host distribution are wrong Then you don't need containers at all. You just install the build tools turbo and It will tell you what to do And I personally don't like containers because in general I don't like Unneeded obstruction layers and if I can avoid I needed obstruction layers. I absolutely do Mario Mario Another thing that I should add in the tool that we use the user containers Besides this feature that we want to restrict the level of mass that developers can make It's also more than that in a way that it serves as a glow between the build system and CI system So it's really extensible. It's still some ideas from the after for example It can be extended because in BMW has a Great variety of systems that we build and each system has a little bit of a difference Even in the yacht configuration and this tool kind of wraps the yacht of configuration and allows Different systems to extend it So it's a bit complicated and tailored to our needs But it it serves especially to have build reproducibility and serve as a glue between the build system and CI system So you just summarized exactly what she I wanted to do and exactly why crafts generator has been created So that's so please if this is part of what you want to do. We'll be having a meeting join All right, so we got five minutes Does anyone else want some chocolate? Surely you've got a problem you want to ask the yacht to experts in the room free technical support Megan just wants to make me. Do you actually want something you you missed your you missed your own shout out because you weren't here Please stand up for everybody that that is the one and only mega night that I just introduced like half an hour ago as our Advocacy lead And yes, my question is advocacy related what event would you like to see us at next? Rocking Park Where are we not and we should be is there an event that we're missing? We tried embedded world for our first time this year and it was Really well received by the community. So I'm just curious any suggestions We do not plan to be at open source summit Europe due to the lack of Embedded and IOT content if that is a miss and you think we should be there. We're open to having a conversation Colonel maintainer summit they invite only one for like 30 people Yeah, Lennox con yeah, yeah, I got you I mean the thing we're really interested in is new and novel shows that we haven't been to before Where do you guys hang out if you're not coming to this event? Was that a serious answer? I did actually hear it, but it seemed funny Follow-on question from from a different perspective. Where do your managers go? Well done What shows do your managers go to? If you have ideas, please stop by the booth between now and when the end of the day So we realize we keep talking to you know those of you and you're here. So we already reached you Embedded world mission says I'm pretty sure embedded world will be on the calendar in the future Yeah, they have an embedded world in America For the first time ever embedded world North America happening October in Austin Yes, it's a brand new event the 2024 Yes, here is it now. Oh Yeah, no clue. It has been a long way. Hey, we have we have one minute, which means one question with a short answer left That is a very short answer. It's dead and gone People might be interested in it though People might be interested in it though is a story I heard and the eclipse plug-in It is dead and gone Joseph, what is the official Yachto project song of 2023 according to you the official? What song song? That is a tough question If you ask me then probably something like with a trident Party pirate treasure party crew something like that. We are here to drink your beer No, this is not an official statement Let me let me look at no seriously. Okay. This is a good question if No, seriously, I was supposed to be sure I know we're on time, but give me give me 15 seconds 15 seconds I tell you I'm sorry that the state that the official song for the state of understanding of embedded Linux Yachto and the support by vendors is said but true With that we're out of time. Thanks everybody. I've got some chocolate left