 Thank you Hearing that bio again I should probably take front-end development out of that just because I've been now surrounded by so many talented devs that I'm like Wow, okay now that I've seen real front-end development. I'm just gonna stick to product management So you've inherited a website now what I when I go to word camps a Lot of the time I'm hanging out near the Bluehost booth because they're nice enough to send me out to them and a question that I get a lot Because I'm always asking hey what brings yet to word camp while you're here. What are you trying to learn? What are you trying to solve is I don't know yet? I was just handed this website and what do I do with it right? I've heard its WordPress I don't know what to do and there's a variety of directions that that this could go but Just so that I can get an idea of the audience Raise your hand if you can if you've ever used WordPress before Okay Have you ever built a website before? Okay, and are you inheriting a website soon? Hands up. Okay, perfect So before we do this I usually tell people like there's a lot of things to think about But don't be overwhelmed by like this long list of things because not everything applies to everyone, right? so my kind of expectation with this is that I can name off a few things that apply to a lot of Situations and that you can just sort of cafester cafeteria style pick and choose. Hey, this sounds like something that would be useful Hey, I don't know if that really applies to me or not As far as the slides themselves, I just tweeted out a link on my Twitter That has the article version of all of this information So take notes if you want, but it's also mostly all in the article So You've inherited a website. What do you do first the first thing that I try to do is understand the Responsibility that I am taking on right and sometimes unfortunately during a handoff That's one of the things that gets lost is the the role that that is meant here. Are you? Just trying to keep the lights on While somebody else is going to take over something or are you taking over so that you can rebuild something or are you taking? Over all of web presence which may include more than just a website So understanding that is going to be important, but assuming that we're just talking about a website and a WordPress website Let's start there So I usually start looking through everything that we have and just get at least one login I'm an administrator login to WordPress and that's a good starting point and just sort of read it read through what you have What plugins do you have? What themes do you have? What things are you using? is Are you using a child theme or not? And then once you've taken sort of an inventory of like here's here's where I'm at this is what I'm using and You know you can judge the decisions of the last person and like oh they're using this page builder Okay, you know you can be once you get past that phase Then switch hats a little bit and start to read through it as a user Right and pretend that you're just a you like log out even if you want because sometimes things look different when you're logged in And just start clicking through You know for most of the time it's gonna be informational or a blog or something like that But if it's a web application, you know also use it the way a user would and just go through these flows and figure out What works for you? What seems to make sense how are users interacting with this just so that you can get a sense of things like the you know overall tone of the copy The personality of the brand and some of these things that you're inheriting So that you know suddenly there's not a massive shift in the voice of what's happening the day that you take over Right, so like get an idea of at least what you have right? You know what plugins you have you know what themes you have you know things like that So once you have that then do a little bit more of a technical deep dive and start asking questions like this one who owns the domain name and If the answer is the company, but who actually owns the domain name, right? And maybe even look it up yourself just despite what people might tell you oh, it's this person that person Because one thing that I have found is that a lot of times The answer to that question might be surprising and you might find oh, yeah the ex CEO I guess technically still owns that well, I guess technically he shouldn't so Let's let's maybe write down that that's that's a thing on our to-do list is let's get that domain over to us As soon as possible right and it's not just domain name It might not be in the same place as the hosting and it might get even a little trickier than that because Sometimes you'll have well. We've got our main website on wordpress But we've got a sub domain that's an application that's maybe on something else and we've got a couple of click funnels over here And if you go to this sub domain, it's this other thing. So like who owns the hosting might be different depending on where you're at and The hosting, you know that it might just be oh, yeah, we have WP engine We have blue house. We have this that or it might be a complicated infrastructure that like oh talk to somebody on the admin team so like figure out what that looks like and Who's your point of contact there and is everything in order there? Then Anything else that is subscription level for the business a lot of times when people have to especially it's small Organizations have to wear multiple hats. You'll get a lot of people using their personal accounts for business things Right and you'll find oh, hey who you know, we have this we have that who owns the monitoring software Oh, well the the dev at the time set it up on his personal credit card and it's technically in his name Well, that means he technically owns it. So, you know figure those things out if if you He ever left your kids with babysitters and you you make a list of phone numbers and you put on the fridge Think of it like that You want to assemble this list of phone numbers to put on your fridge so that you're not trying to solve these questions in the middle of the night When your domain expires right you want to you want to have this question solved when everyone's You know happy to be answering your questions You won't think of everything Probably, I mean maybe you will but don't plan on knowing everything So try to have at least one point of contact for most categories of things Say if I if I don't know a technical thing at least have a point of contact where you can say okay? Well, I don't necessarily know everything, but maybe I don't need to maybe there's just a guy or Someone else that I can talk to that might be able to answer that question Another thing to think about is even if all you care about is the WordPress site There's other things that impact that so like who owns email accounts Who owns resetting email accounts and some of these things so if you're going to be facilitating some kind of handoff or inheriting something some property There are things that are lateral to WordPress that might impact you and that might Well leave some accounts unprotected so Things like email addresses are important So things to consider when you're actually doing the handoff talk to the original owner Hopefully the original owner is around I've had some unfortunate conversations in the past where you have to take over because someone was fired or because someone's no longer Available or because of some of the reason those are really tricky because you have to sort of work around That person and hope they wrote documentation, but nobody ever writes documentation ever. It's never a thing that happens So you'll probably have to start that process So yeah, talk to the previous owner as much as you can and maintain a good relationship if you can because You might have follow-up questions later. You might have to reach out later And try to understand what their responsibilities used to be Because you don't want to find out. Oh Yeah, then you're supposed to have been managing the Twitter this whole time Why aren't you also doing that and to a to maybe the business manager who hired you it they might be thinking Oh, yeah, you're you're managing web presence when you're thinking. Oh, I'm managing website, right? And it's not exactly the same so As long as you have that and you have that list of people who to call in emergencies and you know what your role is you should be ready to have this handoff happen, so Ideally a handoff should look like this things should be moving along and things should be okay And then there should be this very graceful Handoff almost never does it look like this usually it looks more like this Right and and for those listening in or reading a transcript the the difference is a relay race versus literally throwing something over a wall Right, so Some things are outside of your control, right? It's not necessarily your fault if the handoff Looks a little bit more like throwing things over a wall, but Yeah, so the handoff itself. What what should you keep in mind? When you're doing that make sure that you have access to everything you need As soon as possible So that's the first part but the second part of that is making sure eventually and without you know stepping on too many toes that the wrong people Don't have access to things that they shouldn't have And sometimes and you'll want to make sure that you understand what it should be Sometimes that means also if someone's handing you a key that you take away their copies of the key So understand what that should be and make sure that you're doing that right So if it's something like oh, I need to give you a password or something like that don't email it Don't do anything like that The there's ways that you can hand off accounts and passwords that you can think about So if you're gonna if you're gonna hand off access there are services online things like last pass one password dash lane Whatever else there's a million of them that will somewhat securely hold the password for you at least that's You know what they're selling I don't prefer this method although it does work and it is convenient for some people and sometimes convenience wins The method that I prefer is replacing the account altogether So if it's possible try to get a different account for whatever it is and grant yourself those permissions rather than handing off a password Sometimes that's not possible and if you can't replace an account sometimes you can sort of do the same thing and Just change a level of access on that account to be you instead of the other person like a lot of times That takes the form of change the email on file then reset the password like normal now You have access and you have de facto removed the last person's access hopefully so And I'm not just talking about WordPress here. I'm talking about Really any type of account that is going to be relevant to this handoff so this could include emails it could include Mailing lists where maybe you don't use this person at domain calm Maybe it's a distribution list of like oh our whole IT team has access so the the IT team Email is on file something like that so removing people from email lists that they shouldn't be on Or other types of accounts You'll have to figure out what makes sense for each one and Do the handoff at a time that makes sense So hopefully there's you can do it as early in the process as possible so that as Questions and whatever come up you hopefully still have a little bit of time to interact with whoever had it before To answer some questions Because the later it happens then the more risky you can get I want to talk a little bit as well about a concept called the principle of least privilege Who's heard of this so a few yeah a few of us have heard of this the the idea It's a fancy way of just saying people shouldn't have more access than they really need so Why is that important? Well, this is what account takeover looks like in the movies and for people listening in This is Tom Cruise hanging from the ceiling right typing on a computer mission impossible one style, right? In real life account takeover doesn't look like this in real life account takeover looks like this Which is hey, please fill out this form by today log in with your work email and fill out this form and it's actually from a hacker It's not really from your boss, right so The the reason why this is important and why this has to do with the principle of least privilege is Somebody who shouldn't have the root keys to your critical infrastructure Shouldn't be susceptible to this so yeah If you're able to trick a random person maybe a new hire to your organization this way It's sort of okay as long as they don't have the keys to the kingdom It's like okay Well, you tricked the new person and now you have access to the coffee machine, okay? Right if that's all they're in charge of that's all they should be able to Control so yeah principle of least privilege. I don't want to pick on real life people So I won't use real examples for just this Although there have been things in real life that have happened at major companies Why this is so common so I'm gonna use up a made-up example. This is I really like corny stock images. It's like a weird Thing that I like and this is I thought the perfect stock image for Clueless CEO that wants too much access so we're gonna call this fictional CEO Gary and Gary is the CEO that's like, oh, yeah, and he likes to micromanage, right? So he wants way more access than is actually reasonable And so one way you can make it easier for people like Gary to understand What is reasonable and what is not because you don't want to be like hey CEO? No, I'm not gonna do what you ask right but instead if you can make it easier for them to understand What's reasonable then there's less negotiating to do so Within WordPress, there's different user roles. So you don't necessarily have to have the case to the kingdom You can have different things for example admin right or just editor, but sometimes People will see these options and say, oh, yeah, make me an admin. I want I want control I want to be in charge But if you change these roles which you can in WordPress There's plugins that will let you change just the names of these roles change admin to developer and now it's The CEO doesn't want it. Oh, well, I'm not a developer. Good. Yeah, you're not a developer. You won't get access, right? It's a little bit more helpful, right? We're not trying to be tricky here We're just trying to be helpful and say okay admin maybe in your case something a word that you would More understand what we mean by admin is developer, right? And even though it says editor that was a choice made back when this was just a blogging platform and not a Everything platform so maybe manager is a better word for editor now, right? So you can rename ones or if you want to even use other plugins You can make up your own roles and say oh your job is just this thing. Let's just worry about that one thing That's all you need to do so that if they get hacked Only that one thing that they have control over gets hacked and that person is safe because it's not just about Oh, we don't trust people. We don't trust the CEO It's actually that we're trying to protect the CEO that the CEO is not liable for hey This person the CEO was trying to be responsive He clicked on something he thought was a customer and actually got the whole company hacked So we're we're trying to protect people here By doing this by making it more helpful. So sorry, maybe that was a little bit too long on this one thing But principal of lease privilege is important and a good time to think about it is when you're passing out keys so Now that we have all that out of the way and you have this key chain of yours to get into everything Let's make it secure So understand the process of how things work at this company or this group If it's a small group, maybe all of it is you so maybe you're gonna have to come up with all of this But if it's a larger group, maybe understand how things work how Things like rollouts work or how things are changed on the site Or who's going to be sending you messages asking for things to change who you should reach out to if things are wrong and How to roll back changes and what I mean by roll back changes is my next topic backups and versioning so You'll want to make sure now that things are locked down That you can at least keep things as good as they were when you started Right because you're you're now taking over this project. So make sure there's a good robust system for backups and Whatever whatever you have running look into that see make sure the right people have access but also Versioning if you want you don't have to but Sometimes it's really useful to be able to say hey, I'm gonna make this small change. It's gonna be on a branch It's gonna be on a version and we're gonna test this out or we're gonna a B test this right so Another thing as you're picking out a backup solution because as you look into your backup solution nine times out of ten you'll find that You don't have one so When you inevitably find that you don't have one and you're deciding what you're gonna use test your ability to restore it If a restore is a huge hassle or not practical the backup is kind of useless, right if And I'm not picking on any backup solution in particular I'm just describing concepts if you try to restore because something went wrong and you're like, oh, that's terrible We need to go back in time and you try to restore something and it downloads a zip file to your computer How is that helpful? It's not right so Okay, what do I do with this? How do I upload this? What do I what do I do here? So? Take a backup and restore that backup Even when you don't need to just once at least test the process of restores a key takeaway here Your backup system is only as useful as your restore system, right? So it doesn't matter if you have the best backup system in the world if when you click restore It doesn't do what you expected and it is a huge hassle and it takes three hours Do you want to be doing that when you're you know just before a meeting with your boss? And oh, I made a change. I'm trying to change it back and I've got a zip file here. What do I do with it? So yeah backup is only as useful as your ability to restore it a Lot of hosting providers will provide in-house backups that's sometimes a good option Upside being it's usually really easy because they're already the host so the integration is easy for them The downside is if your host gets hit by an asteroid then you lose everything So it's usually a good idea to take your own backups or have something off-site or talk to your host and be like Are your backups off-site? You know or something like that But it's just something to look into So now that you have backups in place and maybe you have versioning in place if you need it You at least know okay Well, I have things locked down and things won't get worse at least now that I'm in charge So now let's make things better So let's come up with some plans for improvement plans like Plural multiple plans. It's not just like one thing one road that's gonna lead exactly to success Right, so things are gonna change requirements are gonna change timelines are gonna change But that's okay. You should be able to roll with a bunches that way, but just make some plans So this is what I would say Is a good just if you've never had to do this before a really good breakdown of how to manage that So as you're you know auditing these accounts and everything like that look for ways to optimize so Optimizing can sometimes mean performance optimizing making things faster But what I'm talking about here is more like optimized toward your goals Remember earlier on when you were clicking through and acting like you were a customer And hopefully whatever the product is or whatever the thing is you are a customer also in real life Hopefully you use the product. It's not always feasible, but yeah as you were doing that Hopefully come up with some goals that will try to improve that So like if you go and do a thing and it's hacky and weird or if you do something It's confusing or if you see an opportunity to make something a lot lot better Then set some goals for how you're gonna do that Check on things like your analytics usually that's something people have and See how you're doing see how you're doing for the things you're trying to rank for Do you have a site map? Do you have all the things you need for SEO? If not, maybe you know how to do that and if you don't you know Maybe it's within the budget to hire someone or maybe you can read up on you know The host blog and figure it out or something, but um, yeah Then from there start auditing your content itself and say like is this good is this all Written by thing, you know, it's what's what's good and what's bad what works what doesn't you know What are people responding to on social media? What are people responding to in the graphs? Are there anything where the ranking has dropped recently or is there anything that's maybe so out of date that? It's not worth keeping Some stuff changes some stuff doesn't There's also back-end changes that you can make remember when you were looking through WP admin and you were judging the last person for all of the tools that they used and maybe you're not that way I'm sort of imposing that on all of you But I'm sometimes that way where I'll look through and I'll be like I don't like this plug-in I like this other plug-in right this is now your time to change that right and You can start making changes to the theme to the meta And you can even do things like a B test who's familiar with a B testing cool, so a B testing is just the concept of Having more than one version of something having a way to measure a change and making a change to a group of people So maybe you'll do a thing where you have one version of your site and another version of your site usually a small change then a Portion of your traffic will see one thing a portion of your traffic will see another thing then you see who behaves differently and say Okay, well when we change the call to action to say this people click on it more and that's defined as success So we're going with that so rather than presuming to know everything you can have your users tell you what they want Really useful thing very very common So yeah, and you can a lot of a lot of companies will provide ways to do this So yeah start testing things out start figuring out things and start setting goals to where you're like Okay, now I know how I want to make this thing better Then once all you have all of these bright ideas in a list and you're like I think I know what I'm gonna do talk with your stakeholders Your stakeholders are people who would be directly impacted by whatever change you're proposing right? Maybe that's your boss Maybe that's Some of your customers. Maybe that's other people right at a large organization. There's usually groups of people But yeah talk to the people who are going to be helping you make these decisions or depending on the structure of the company, maybe the people who have the final say on these decisions and Talk over these plans and say hey, this is a thing that I'm trying has anyone ever tried this before is this a good idea? Is this gonna work right? Here's why I think it's gonna work and start working with them and then using with their input Put everything in order because you can't do everything And you can't do everything on once so even if you have a team of people working for you You have to decide what is most important if everything's important nothing's important So things have to be kind of in an order of like okay first We're gonna worry about ICO then once we've got that sorted then we're gonna worry about this then we're gonna worry about that right so if you have things in a list you can you can kind of Create a priority of this is what's important to the business and that's usually an easier thing for people to agree and decide on Then at that point it's gonna be really easy to give people timelines it's gonna be really easy to work with stakeholders and Say oh, yeah, this thing that you wanted. I haven't forgotten about it It's thing number 37 on my list and I will get to it on May 12th because it will take this long Right and I have to do all these other things Before then so it makes it easy if you have it on it less and even though I have this list in a one two three Really it should be one two three two three two three two forever because Looking for ways to optimize and talking with stakeholders should be this continuous process that you're always iterating on so back When I said hey plans will change be able to roll with the punches. This is what I mean that As you're going be ready to change the order of those priorities be ready to Hey, say hey, this is actually this other thing is more important So that whatever success looks like you can get there as quickly as possible So now we've handed off the site we have Locked things down as much as we can we found some things we can make better We've made some of those things better and we've got kind of a long list I might call it a backlog of things that we're gonna do or a team of people are gonna do To make things better How are we actually gonna make these changes I want to talk a little bit about staging and deployment who's familiar with this concept Okay, so for a few people that aren't staging is the concept of I'm gonna rather than make a change on a live Website where everyone can see my change as soon as I can is to make a copy of your site That only you can see or that only the business can see right and this copy You can make whatever changes you want and you can even do stuff that might seem crazy or might seem like You know a little bit you're not sure about right because only a few people are gonna see it Then you can show it to people and say hey Here's a change that I want to make and you can test it out yourself and try things out Like maybe you're gonna switch a theme You don't want to figure out if you're gonna use this new theme While your customers are using your website and while everything's working because what if you don't like it right? And you want to be able to just in the you know in a calm Collected way to say how do I think about this and look at things and test things out? So if you've got this copy to work with it's gonna be really great and then as you're actually deploying these changes then you'll know what it's gonna look like before you actually do it and then you'll push it live and Depending on the infrastructure. Hopefully there's not too many differences between staging and deployment But yeah, then when you actually push it live You'll know what you're getting it won't be a surprise. You'll be ready for it You can even plan for it and say hey We're gonna make a really important change to the website at this time. Everyone be ready for it, right? So and that kind of goes back to working with stakeholders. So it's not always A big organization This is also true if you're just working on the site yourself like I just have my own personal like weird rants about random things website that I have and even that I use staging on because I've got a theme that I use and if I want to change something or if I want to test something out I'm gonna do a staging plugin Or if I'm testing out a plug-in I mean I'm gonna put that on the staging version of a site rather than the real thing because if it blows up my website You know blow up the copy. Don't blow up the real thing, right? So yeah, that's gonna be important There's a lot of fun ways to do this sometimes the staging copy will just live on your computer Sometimes it'll be hosted there and maybe if you're very lucky you'll inherit a website that already has that figured out Right, but yeah, there's a lot of ways you can do that There's plugins you can look for online Talk to your host see if they have it if they don't Just look for a plug-in and use that there's a lot of really good plugins that will do that for you So we've gone through a long list of things we've talked about a lot of different things but before I open it up to questions last slide This does not necessarily apply to everyone. You can do it. It'll be okay Don't be intimidated by there being a million things to think about And don't be afraid to ask for help which in fact I was debating on actually submitting that talk instead Don't be afraid to ask for help. It's a whole topic in and of itself, but it's very very important. So Any questions? Yeah on plug-in on what to use for backups Use something Oh, yeah, yeah, so so the question was do you need a plug-in for backups and What should we use for backups perhaps one plug-in versus another my answer might sound like a non-answer and I apologize Use what works for you because the answer for you might be very different than the answer for somebody else for some people A plug-in is gonna make perfect sense, right? Maybe their host doesn't do it or maybe they have specific requirements, right? But that's why it's really important to understand it and test it out yourself and say Hey, I like the way that the restore process works. Hey, I like that this works While I work for a hosting company, so I have a lot of trust in hosting companies I would say yeah, it's great when a host has your backups but look into how they have your backups look into what level of Promises they're willing to make about those backups because what some companies will do is they'll keep their own backups and Maybe they didn't actually promise that they're gonna be available all the time or maybe the way that they have it set up You can't decide when the backups happen, right? So there's certain things that would make sense for one person that would make sense for another So Try it out. Just try to try to restore it Yeah, there's definitely ways to do without a plug-in like my my way of backing up on my personal site is a script that I wrote myself and It's it's installed at the Linux level right and it just does that thing It downloads to a hard drive in my apartment and then it shoots up to an s3 bucket But I'm weird and most people don't do that So it's not a bad idea to do a plug-in if that sounds like a weird thing to do or to use your host if you trust them Okay, okay Yes Okay, let me let me repeat your question real quick and then I will Try to answer your question in a way that makes sense So the question was hey, I've got this process set up And it's really painful because my staging environment is very very different than my production environment and Moving between the two is a huge hassle. What do I do? Is that kind of your question? Okay, how do I solve the order of operations on moving from staging to production? Okay. Yeah, that when you're when you're figuring out how you're gonna do it Try to get your staging production Your staging environment to be as similar and close to your production environment as you feasibly can a lot of times That means hosted in the same place Sometimes the infrastructure doesn't allow for that, right? That's why sometimes you'll see weird things like people Testing out like you'll see on a random store one product will be ten billion dollars It's probably that someone's testing something and they don't want someone to really buy it, right? So like sometimes it's impossible But if you try to make sure that your testing environment is very very similar to the production environment Then that process is gonna be a lot smoother. So how do you solve your problem of I'm I've got one and it's Hacking and weird. How do I move it over? Then next time you do it. Unfortunately, it's gonna be just as much of a headache, right? But once you do that move then start working on the next move and say, okay I need a new way of doing this. How do I at my new production environment set up staging that makes sense, right? so ditch the old method and Find something even if it means it's on the same domain or something like that find a new method that works There's plugins that do it. There's hosting providers that do it There's sometimes even third-party services that will set this up for you, right? But the next one that you're about to do is probably gonna be painful, right? But once that's done immediately start working on How do I get my staging environment to be very very similar to my production environment and that'll ease the process a lot? Next question I put it doesn't have to be just about these things, but I put the main topics up there for drug memories So okay the question that was asked was always test your ability to restore backups. Is that gonna mess things up? Hopefully not right if it does Hopefully not, but if it does You would rather learn that now Then later right then during an emergency so like yes definitely test it out But maybe test it out really late at night when there's gonna be less people on the website or maybe test it out At a time when everyone's comfortable with it But yeah, if you can make sure that If if for example you have on-demand backups not everyone does but if you have on-demand backups you can take your backup and Two seconds later Restore it and nothing's changed in the meantime or if you have a really Complex way of doing it. That's really useful. Sometimes you can only restore pieces of it and say restore everything but the comments Restore everything but stuff in the user table Restore everything but this so like you can do it selectively so that people can still interact with the site Without having to oh everything I've done in the last ten minutes went away. I wonder what happened, right? so, you know that there's there's different ways you can get around that but Close to the time that you restored is one way, but just check into what options you have available Last how much how much more time do we have ten more minutes? Okay. We have a little bit more time Okay, two more questions Cool we had some advice from the audience a recommendation for a duplicator and Recommendation to use staging as a means of testing Restores and a recommendation that if you restore in a place other than your production environment Sometimes you can test just restores without actually impacting production Next question Yeah Did you say you inherit a lot of docs like documentation dogs like the animal oh Oh, I understand I understand Somebody's okay They're not all gems is what you're saying okay, so what you're talking about is actually Almost in core it will be very soon. Yes And it's something we've needed for a very long time, but there's some complexity Is the short way of saying that? But yeah what to repeat his question is sometimes I inherit some really bad websites that have a billion plugins some of them They're not even being used there's like other things There's problems and to add to what you said sometimes there can be problems with old versions of PHP or not utilizing SSL Properly, there's all kinds of things that can be bad about something that someone else built So how do you quickly assess all of these things? And my answer was very quickly in core at the time of this recording. It's not in core, but it soon will be There will be something that will help you evaluate Those sorts of things and it will say things like hey, you're on an old version of PHP You should probably upgrade And it will say things like hey, you're not using some of these themes that you have installed. Maybe you should get rid of them So that's one way to do it. There's also other third-party plugins. I've had mixed results with them About evaluating plugins because it's really really difficult to programmatically Understand what a human being meant right code is trying to express ideas most of the time and You can write code that tries to understand that but it's really hard So it would be conceptually very challenging to write something that would understand someone's intention or whether or not a plugin is objectively good or bad Especially because a lot of times most plugins, especially the popular ones aren't objectively good or bad They're just good or bad for certain use cases. So The the thing in core is kind of a shortcut to that But my other answer is there's no perfect shortcuts to it Sometimes you just have to go through it and say oh gosh, they're using this. Oh gosh, they're using this But yeah, there's definitely tools like the thing going in core that helped mitigate some of that Is there a rule on how many plugins there should be is less better? There are there are rules people will tell you there are opinions people will have is less better My personal website Has a lot a lot of plugins most of them were written by me and only run on my own website. So like it depends The more code that has to run could sometimes in theory make things slower oftentimes does But it depends some plugins are actually making things faster if you have a plugin that integrates with a content delivery network or sets up caching that's a little bit of work for your web server to do with a lot of performance gain and Sometimes things end up just being mission critical to where like yeah, it might be really hard But this is the best way to do it so Yeah Try to avoid plugins that do that personally. I try to avoid plugins that do more than they need to and If there's a plugin that does one thing really well, I personally tend to prefer that over a plugin that does 25 things okay, but it's it's all what works for you And I think at that point we're out of time. We're at 50 minutes after the hour