 Hi, good evening. My name is Sandy Baird, and I am the person, I guess, in charge tonight for the Vermont Institute of Community and International Involvement to talk about the important issues that are facing our community. And not only our community, we do have an international component as well. And we talk about many issues that affect the world at large. But tonight, we're talking about a very important local issue of what happened in the Sears Lane encampment. We have with us tonight some people who were living in that Sears Lane encampment prior to the time when the city summarily, through self-help, booted those people out of the camp and then took their property. We have a member here of that encampment, a young man, who was living there and was one of those people who were removed from the camp and then had his property taken. We might be joined by a second one of those residents as well. But right now, we'll start with telling Gray's story that he has been so kind to come here tonight to tell his story about what happened. All right, so there's some kind of an echo. Is that all right or what? Are we OK with boys? Sounds good, Sandy. Go ahead. All right, and we've been joined by a couple of one attorney who has zoomed in, who has an expert. We'll put it that way on the law of landlords and tenants. And with us also is Steve Goodkind, who is the former director, public works director of the city of Burlington. And now we've been joined by a second resident of that encampment, whose name is Jake, right? It's Jason. Jason, I'm sorry. Very close. So Jason was one of those people who were residing in the encampment, and he's here to tell you his story. And so let's begin. So your name is Jason. Jason. Yes. Wait, but you were a resident? I was a resident at Sierra's Lane briefly, as I think most people were. Although there's a few people that have been there for years, actually, a really extended period of time. Several winters that they had stayed there. And so I was. In the winter? Yes, yeah, it stayed over winter. Three winters, I think. A few of them, not everybody. And so, yeah, so for. When did you join them? So it was, let's see, it was 2021 in the summer. And so, like I say, it was a fairly brief stay there, less than a year. But I went there because of mutual friends and because there seemed to be offered this sense of safety and security in that nobody was going to be kicked off of that spot. How did you know that you were going to be kicked off? And so that was word of mouth, but it seemed to be coming from people who were in physical positions, like the liaison to the woman named Lacey, visited on a regular basis. And, you know, this was this was the word, you know, that that it was OK to stay there and that nobody was going to be removed from that spot at a charge with trespassing or whatever, which really makes a huge difference. Absolutely is like a complete change from how homeless camps, you know, are in that there. Go ahead. Sorry, I want to go with that mental. OK, well, what? In other words, a secure camp means somehow that the word is out that you're not going to be kicked out. So security in the sense of not being, you know, roused it from your spot, not being out of your space, you know, or arrested for trespassing or, you know, disrupting somebody's property or, you know, being in a place that that isn't sanctioned or isn't isn't OK for whatever reasons. And so that makes a really big difference. It's a complete, you know, paradigm shift. You know, I mean, most of these camps are temporary and illegal sort of. And everybody there knows this. And so with that impending sense of doom, I think it sort of sets the stage, you know, I don't know, impending sense of doom, maybe that's a little melodramatic, but, you know, certainly people know that at some point, at any moment, this is going to end and the police will be there and they'll be, you know, taken away. And it belongs to this right here. That's another big part of that. Every time that happens, everybody tends to lose their stuff. OK, but somehow when you join, you were homeless at the time, I guess, or unhoused or unhoused. And so you went there. But there was a feeling at least of security. Absolutely. And also the sense of community. You know, this is for people and there is this cohesiveness. Which I don't think I've ever really seen any other, you know, any other camp, any other time, especially with a group of people who are all, you know, struggling, you know, everybody has these incredible struggles. And so it's hard to, you know, really look out for other people when you almost can't take care of yourself. Yeah, I think my finger on that door, Mom, going on the bathroom stall was in a rush. Anyways. All right. So you were there for how long? OK, so. Oh, I don't know, about eight months or something. And over the course of what did you find there? What kinds of stuff was there? So what kind of stuff was there? I found the figure. I saw people who I don't think normally would have time to or the space or infrastructure to do this. People work on projects, people work on art, people work on, you know, their own vehicles. So there were some vehicles there. There was a group together. But did people live in them as well as use them for transportation? So it seems that there were a couple of campers that didn't move that maybe just have been rooted in place permanently that were broken down. That's where they came to die. And so the campers look that way. I don't know how long they've been there, but there are sort of two campers, very similar, that were people's homes. And and those were, you know, some of the more coveted spaces, I guess, together with some of the prime real estate at the homeless camp. Is a trailer, you know, it's enclosed. But anyways. So there was something like that. There was something like that. And some people brought box vehicles, trucks in and we're living in the back of those. But then most people had tents. Tents, yeah, even in the cold. Even in the cold, even in the cold. People, the things to insulate them, you know, putting layers of, I don't know, insulation in between tarps on the outside or what have you. And some form of heat. And what did you have? What did I have? I didn't have anything aligned with the tent. No insulation? No, no, I wasn't staying outside in the winter. You know, so much, I would always sleep with somebody else's place who had insulation in. But outside still? Are you, were you co-serving? Some outside, some inside. Yeah, okay. And so was, had everybody been there for a long period of time? Or what? That's what, yeah. I think that's what I was saying initially when I first started talking about this is that I think there was sort of a record of a few people that had been there for years. You know, in turn of my opinion, you know, it was very established and had a trailer and, you know, it would stove. And he'd been there, I think, almost the longest. And he, yeah, he'd seen three winters, I think, there on that spot. And, you know, he was one of the more positive, great people. Like what do you mean by that? Well, he, he was not all the time. It was, you know, crappy days. But no, he was the person who was seemingly always there for lend a hand or help, you know. Even it was just the lend a year, you know, somebody, you know, somebody's talk to you. He seemed really available in that capacity. And he was very community-minded. You know, he didn't just think of himself. You know, when he had supplies or he was going to get water, you know, he asked around with anybody else. How did you get water? There was, you know, various sources. People would find, you know, caps that weren't guarded or locked off or, you know, illegal to borrow some water from. And so, you know, people who had a faucet were willing to fill large jugs up. And so, I know Parmalin Farms got rather hostile towards people asking things like water and matches. You know, they probably just said, well, the volume. So what did you do about bathrooms? Yeah, that's another thing, too. You know, that's, that's terrible. But, you know, there were no, you know, facilities as far as, you know, plumbing and electricity. This is one of the basics. You know, we're not available there, not even to sort of. So you had to look for that stuff. Right, so people had to leave to go elsewhere to use that. Right, and so that's another, there's another thing that happened with Parmalin Farms is I think they got really irritated with. Because you're a staffer now? So many people, you know, and I mean, I don't know if their bathroom facilities could even handle that volume for me. How many people were there? And the regular customers. Yeah, how many people? It, I'm guessing, you know, we weren't able to sense this. But, you know, at least there are like 60 people there, you know, I think it's in the high points. Yeah, well, I think many people don't know how people who are on how to survive. So maybe you could talk, how did that work? I mean, was there, were there some leaders who came to the fore? Do you have rules? There was a little anarchist community. What was the deal? I wanted to say something about that, because you touched on that with something else. But that is exactly what happened, I think. Not in any organized way and not in a way was brought about by any one person. But just, you know, when there's a group of people, you know, one person, you know, there are natural leaders, you know. Male and female? Male and female, male and or female. You know, it doesn't have anything to do necessarily with race, color, creed, religion, sexual orientation, any of that. It's just some people are strong people. I have a lot to say. Or are, you know, wise in some ways. And so with that, you know, there's always going to be somebody that steps up to lead. And that sort of does emerge. You know, there were people that were looked at sort of in the sense of, you know, elders or, you know, the leaders of the community. And so situations happen, you know, maybe somebody has something stolen or. Was there? Yeah, that happened periodically. Somebody took something that wasn't theirs or, you know, people, you know, have a plot state that somebody else is using it. Sort of those sort of. Called trespass. Yeah, a little turmoil like that. And that always seemed to get settled. And it was funny, I did see people run to, well, I did see people run to these people that, you know, they propped up as leaders, you know, to look for, you know, settlement. It always, it always worked out. It did. Yeah, people were always able to work things out. Were there fights? I don't know, I didn't really see many fights actually. I really didn't, I can't think. Great, another young man is here, Gray, from that community. Were there fights? I don't think there was any, I mean, I mean, did you see anybody fighting? I don't think I ever saw any fights. I don't think I actually got through it. Well, what happened before there was a fight? In normal society, I guess, if you want to call it normal, right? If you want to call it normal, the police come. But in your society, I would guess that you didn't call the police that much. Well, it's all our society. We were just a subplotman of the, you know. Right, right. Right, but in your particular community, how did those problems get solved? Just by mediation, by negotiation, what was the deal? It's dependent on the situation, but yeah, mostly through mediation actually. People really talked out their disputes rather than fighting them out. I mean, I think there were a couple of these fights. There was a couple of them going on, but, you know, and that's just the way those two wanted to settle things. So, fair enough, that's what they did. They did settle it? They did, yeah. I mean, did they cause a war or anything? I don't know. Somebody got a black eye. But that was that, and then you got to suck that. Yeah, and then a few hours later, they're working together on a project, on a fixing a motorcycle or something similar. Conflicts were private, and the accountability would be held, and people would continue their conversation. But as far as violence goes, I really didn't see any violence at all. And it's really good at looking out for one another, and especially looking out for vulnerable people. So I noticed that. That was something that really commendable. I saw people step up to that, in that way, in that, you know, like there was a woman who was, she was literally very mentally ill. She needed assistance frequently with, you know, even some of the basic things. You remember me, you remember me. You don't need to mention that to anyone. Yeah. I was thinking of mentioning it in the audience. Yeah, she, I mean, there were definitely situations where she would, she brought the police, and at times when it was, when there was, there was just simply to escalate things. We're trying to try to create, just to weaponize them. And it would create a pressure on the community, but then afterward, there would still be people checking in on her to see how things were going. Right, that's why I was just like, here's somebody who, you know, who's a group of people who really had almost nothing. And, and despite that, they would, you know, if there was somebody who was clearly injured ill or needed help, people stopped them to check and make sure they were okay and offer assistance in any way that they could. That's, that's great stuff. All right. So this seemed to me, and maybe I have my own thoughts about this, that it worked out fairly well. It did. Without much police interference or interventions, right? Absolutely. Uh-huh. And not perfect. Well, neither is the bigger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing perfect. Yeah, it was a little bit like, Lord of the Fly has gone bad in some sense. It was? Yeah, some days. I mean, Lord of the Fly has ended up in big fire. Some days it seemed that way, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, you know, sugar coat it's a group of, you know, it's a group of people who are struggling in many ways, you know, suddenly thrown together with no, you know, clear structure. So yeah, you know. But it, okay. But in your final, in your final analysis, was it kind of like other communities in a lot of ways? It was very much so. It was my, yeah, how similar it could be in ways like the things. And I mean, I guess it's influenced by the culture we're around. You know, it's not going to stray too far from what everybody learned of growing up or whatever society does anyways. Were people employed at all? Yeah. People are actually probably going to be more employed. That's something, right? Yeah. One way or another, whether it's under the table, you know, or whether there were a lot of people who are very old, right? Why would they then unhoused if they had regular. Because housing is so pretty free, expensive and unavailable. And then to calm down that problem, you have, you know, a pandemic. There was like the perfect storm for people. Why? Why? Because they couldn't. Well landlords that seem to have been to rent anyone. And the pandemic that people have heard. Like, you know, there was these barriers in place. You know, for good reason. And how on earth do people isolate. If they had to isolate because of the pandemic. Was that even possible? No. I think that's one of those things that unfortunately slides down on the list of importance. And you know, for instance, life is when you're struggling with food, water and shelter, you know, you know, immediately in your face and you can't see, you know, this invisible, you know, problem, you know, because it wasn't very visible, but you know, it's virus is not very visible. If people who aren't seeing lots of people sick, people ill in the hospital, or maybe even have nobody's had a direct family member or friend ill, it didn't seem like a threat. It didn't seem like anything that one should take precautions for. So it slides out on the list of the points. So what do people do? I mean, they say, were people in this encampment during the day and in the evenings? Did they go out in the street? Some of them went to work. Right. Like I said, you know, most people had jobs. And so those end to work normal hours. And would you also judge they didn't have enough money also? Even though they were working, they didn't have money for enough money for rent. For an apartment and building. Right. Well, nobody is earning a wage, earning a dollar amount, you know, a per hour dollar amount. And if we're, you know, I think you'd have to be making at least $40,000 a year, probably to your head of a water and broken. Maybe I mean, we do have some. Do you have an opinion about that? How much would you have to make really in Burlington? Probably about 40 grand. $50,000 to people that have an apartment. The other one they got to do. Yeah. You have kids that's more. But if you're one single person, I think it's about 40,000 a year. To get what a room or an apartment. You know, say one bedroom apartment and pay all your bills and not just be, not just be surviving. And so just keep your head of water and wait for the next disaster broken, you know, broken car or some unforeseen bill that's going to set, set a person back. That's all it takes. She also said it. Also that there's no availability either. Right. I watched someone. And eight months. With some money. Yeah. And if I'm going to run this down in a poll chest, right? I saw them last night. They still don't have a place. She's been looking for. I want to say. You're. We're looking for a year now. With kids. Did you have kids in this. Encounter. No, I didn't see any children there. Uh-huh. Were there great eventually. Some kids. There was. Just him. Just him. I think. I saw. Yeah. There was. There was. There was. Just him. I think. I saw. Once in children. And there was. There was. Because of. Because of the community. The intensity of the community. There was. There was hope to make a space. And zone out. The area. It's too much broken glass. And. Car parts. Really. Okay. So what happened? How long were you there? I was there about eight months. Did you. Were you part of the. Of the. What are you going to call it? Removal, I guess. What happened? Yeah. I toughed my tail. My legs. Well, okay. If I need to do that. Thank you. I probably will. Maybe Jacob. Let's go back to how it happened. Right. How did it happen? The cops come. Did you receive word that they were. What happened? It was, you know, and that's, that's the really disheartening thing about this whole. Bulldozing of Sears Lane. Homeless encampment. It's so disheartening because. Here you have, you know, a group of people who seem to really be making it. No, not perfectly. I. Have that anywhere, I guess, like you said. But. You know, one day everything was fine. Everything was, you know, sanctioned. You can be here. This is your home. How did you do that? I don't know. No, I want to say somebody in an official position and some official past. Pass that word along. I want you to find and document that. Or to have something to back up when I'm done. Okay. All right. That's important. CB OEO is Champlain Valley. Economic Opportunity Office. Correct. And so. And they help. Supposedly for people. Right. People who need help with housing and other stuff. So why don't you say what happened, right? And then occasionally we would see somebody who is. And they would come to the. And so they would say what. She's the one that said it clearly like this. This place is sanctioned. You guys are going to be here. We're running water and electricity promise to bring water and electricity. Yes. And when was this about? That was in the summertime. That was in the early summer. Yeah. Well, we can. There's interviews. Why did he do that? Do you need to call. The rotten. But I don't mean that because he. Okay. I didn't ask you why the broke his word. I'm asking why he did that in the first place. that I'm asking why he did that in the first place. Well, I think because that was, you know, he's a slave to fashion, let's face it, you know. That was fashionable? This guy was given lip service because he thought that was going to be the popular opinion and thought it would be the popular position. And when it wasn't, he switched. When did it become unpopular? Do you have any idea? I don't know, probably when somebody got caught with some drugs and told the police that they were coming from down there, I bet. Were you aware that someone was caught with drugs? Was that true, even, or do you know it? I bet my right pinky finger on it. Okay, but you're not, okay. So, but there are drugs in the whole city, correct? There's drugs everywhere that you can find. All right, so somebody though, was found to have drugs or reusing them and then it were the cops called because of that? I don't know that the cops were called because of that, but I bet you that the police got that sort of information and now it's passed along. Just that people had drugs. Were you aware of that, Gray and all? I'm sure you said all kinds of things. Actually, I can really tell you yourself that there's a meth lab there. And they're on this round meth lab. Even one person got arrested, one person got arrested. For what? Drugs? For what? I bet she got a meth operation. I thought they said they'd been watching this person on this operation for a while. Then they finally decided to move into, I don't guess it wasn't that big. A meth operation? It wasn't really a meth operation. I think the guy was in possession of a couple of grams of drugs. It wasn't very big. You know, you're personally used to amount of drugs. Okay, so then what happened? Okay, but at first, however, I think it's an important point that the mayor had asserted or assured people they weren't going to be moved, right? And now, to the best of your knowledge, that did happen. At the time it was official advertised as morality by saying it was... All right, so then what happened? After that, how long did that situation last? There was a couple of months where everybody was really settled in. People started building more current structures. People had plans. Everybody was keeping an eye out for when the linemen were going to come and put electricity in. Really? Honest? How would you hold anybody to pay for it? Well, I think that... I don't know that that was in... Anybody thought that far. Everybody just said it would be at least available here. And I think that there was some talk about public water. Water being made available is for sanitary reasons. It's very basic, you know? I mean, I would think that it'd be healthier for the greater good of the community. Was there a quarter-legs down there at some point? Wait, he's got a question too. I think he's going to bring a quarter-legs towards the end. Can we just go back in the dumpster? Yeah. This is Dave Hartman speaking, former city councilor for award court. Yeah, it was involved in opening of the Ethan Allen college treatment. I think that was our first West shelter in Colorado back then. Yeah, Ethan Allen, Ethan Allen. Ethan Allen Club. Ethan Allen Club. Yeah, it was probably the club for the good old boys here in Brooklyn. Right, yeah. But it was turned into the first West shelter because we called it back down. I hope that's the problem. Don't want to offend anybody. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's from some care. Yes. So, did something change, you know, at some point, like we're hearing a meth lab, right? Yeah. And was there, also, was there a gun, guns? So, do you think that kind of activity uptick in, you know, really not good practices in neighborhoods drove some of the decisions that were made to not bring the water, not bring electricity. Was it in between there and then? You know, because thinking about the drugs, thinking about the drugs before the guy probably moved in there. You know, about the drugs before they moved in. It just seems like at one time you're being told, we're good, electricity, water, right? And then, you know, a few weeks later, maybe whatever, how do you want to confirm it? You know, we're, we have this, you know, where I heard, you know, pretty legit, you know, neighborhoods that was quite, quite obviously, right? And they started hearing about guns and meth. And so, you told them that? I mean, I think that was reported, right? I mean, wasn't it the last? Our department reported it when they were down there. And I wonder how often they were down there that someone had some kind of a gun or a BB gun or something. Right, whatever the case may be. I'm just wondering if that was the trigger point or something. Sorry. To all of us, because of the kind of the... I think much later, there was that, it became much later. There was consistently, I mean, this is how it was so effective, was that there was, repeatedly would have somebody tell us everything we wanted to hear. And feel, and there would be this sense of autonomy where they can't. And so, people would start cleaning up and they would start moving into a direction of, this is where we can have place and sanctuary. And then, as those days passed and people in those conversations vanished and no one knew what we were talking about, they suddenly would be back to survival of what are we going to do to be able to sustain ourselves. But also, that was very threatening because the concept of potentially getting water is, I mean, more in everyone's heart. There was a validation of our existence there. And yet, then when that validation was only performative and going in words that didn't... It ended, right? It ended, yeah. Okay, so, what eventually did happen that you were removed? What happened? And about when? Well, I don't know if the raid happened first or... What was this raid? Notice of eviction happened first. What was this raid? Okay, so a bunch of armed men. Armed? Yeah, dressed in black and machine guns. Were they the machine guns? The bolder vests, what? That was when they raided the so-called Beth. Yeah, right. They thought there was going to be a giant meth lab and drug dealing guys and maybe even armed conflict or... So what happened? They came with them? So they came in and they stormtrooper-style, you know... Assaulting Michael's body on the next one. Yeah, it looked like they were going to meet resistance. What, during the day or night? It was early in the morning. Yeah, about what time? It was their favorite time. Yeah, about what time? Start? Same time they do it every time. Every time? There's something like that. That's a great thing, but... Correct. That's nice of you to say it, Jason. Okay, so then what happened? It was dark, correct? No, it wasn't quite dark. I think it was early morning. It was the early morning. This was probably the latest of the visits or a raid and then finally the bulldozing with the... Not the bulldozing, I don't want to... Okay, so they entered your camp, correct? All done up as riot cops? What? Yeah, it definitely wasn't all of them. It was the ATF agency, something like that. It was? It was the ATF agency. Yeah, there was DEA who was represented as well. Was the FBI? And then there was Burlington Police. DEA, Drug Enforcement Agency, correct? Drug Enforcement Agency, DEA. What else did you say? ATE. He says the ATF would... Maybe I'm asking if there's guns involved in the water and if they have somebody to represent it. It was a big operation. It wasn't just... It was an amazing scene. It wasn't just one of the scenes. It was coordinated. And the position was set... Stop, let me see my... No, no, no. That's what you think. Maybe they should have been removed by the different format. Very, very far. Wait a minute, we haven't gotten to the removal yet, Dave. No, no. This particular method. I'm just talking about this particular reason. Okay, we can't say method very much, but there were... There was... Whatever it was, but... There was some drug ringing. Some drug ringing or some kind. There wasn't even a drug ring, though. That's the best part. There was... Ultimately, it was... It was one guy who gave the drug. Which was Chargis of Neuron. And then he began to send the cure. Did they search you or the tents? They searched just one because they at least followed the rules of the road when it comes to this stuff and that they probably had, you know... Did they have a search warrant? Very specific items on it. Yeah, okay. And they probably executed just the area outlined in the search warrant, which really followed the rules of Vermont. They're really great about that. And there were several agencies there, so they were kind of watching... Yeah, this is an oversight, not just the maternal hysteria that might tell on them. Did they say you're... Oh, there were other people that were in the tent. So, okay, I just had a discussion with them last night because I heard somebody say, you know what I'm saying? This is just a subjective take on it. They said that they were terrified because they came out of their tent or enclosure or house and there was a man with a machine gun and all in black and he said, get back into your house. You know, and they did. Well, who wouldn't? Okay, so, and this was totally unexpected, obviously, right? Right. Okay. They didn't send us... Okay, did you say I have another question today? No, I was just curious, you know... So, this was a raid only. What happened after the raid? That was not when you had to leave, correct? No, that wasn't part of the eviction, but the eviction came shortly after. And so, I think that that was the ammunition you needed to make the eviction, you know, valid or validate their eviction. Okay, I think that if John Franco is here, still here, or I'm a lawyer also, that eviction is preceded by a notice to leave. Yeah, they printed up an email. And did they do that? Did they say you have to leave by a certain time, or right away, or what was the deal? They printed up this sort of really unofficial, you know, effort at letting, you know, notifying people that they needed to leave. It was printed on an 8.5 by 11 sheet paper and varying fonts and size fonts. And not organizing any sort of certain way, chronologically, or there was no order to it. It was, I mean, it looked like a fourth grader had made it, maybe? I don't know. Maybe one of them had better things to do. It was ridiculous. And it was just handed out randomly to random people in no organized way. Who signed it? Do you have any evidence? There was no signing of anything. There wasn't a document to be signed. It was just like a homemade notice saying we want you to leave. No. I don't know. I don't know. Well, there was actually, it was co-workers at the FDA about it. They said they were. Well, it was Lacey, first of all. But I don't know. Nobody shares that information. Lacey apparently is a liaison from the police department. Did she give you this? Who gave you these notices? The random people. I don't know who they were. And they were not necessarily, were they from the city or the police? You don't even know that? The thing is, one can't tell if a person doesn't identify themselves. I have to say the people from CVOEOEOEO or whatever it is are really great. They came through and when they came through, they absolutely made sure that everybody knew who they were. Who they worked for. And what their capacity was for what they were doing. Like, you know, what capacity they were there. They were absolutely professional about what they did every time I saw them. Anyways, these people, I don't know who came out this much. It was weird. Nobody was there. It was a mix. I mean, it was the police. It was. Yeah. At least we're needing someone now. It's been even worse. They were taking them to the streets of Liberty. They were taking them to the streets? Yeah. Okay. In a normal eviction procedure, you have to get proper notice signed by the landlord. You don't know who. Well, first of all, who owns this land? That's it. That was also in question. I wondered that. What a while actually. All right. My legal point is this. Yeah. That you were never treated. It doesn't appear to me as real tenants. In fact, they didn't argue that you were not tenants or not. Essentially. I think that's the case. And yeah, for sure. There'd be no way, shape or form, you could say this is a real relationship with a landlord. Yeah. What happened that day? It wasn't none of it follows any of the normal rules. Right. Okay. So then what happened after this letter? Let's see. After the letter, I think some people tried to get their stuff out. Immediately? They got it stored. Immediately. Some immediately. And some did not. For example, my friend Mike, who's been there for three years, didn't want to move and didn't move at all. He left his stuff right there and said, forget it. I'm not leaving. This is in my home. Here I am. How about you? And me? I know, actually, I didn't. I kept coming back. I kept coming back. So right up until, I don't know, when was the last time I decided to have it stored with me. Okay. So, Ray, what? There were a couple of days before the final destruction, it was early December. Okay. In this notice, did they tell you to get out right away? No, they gave us 10 days or something. Yeah. Okay. So then what happened? You said, how long after this notice, what happened? When there was a second notice, I think there was an extension of some sort. Right? Yeah. And then they said, the day that they gave, which was the 10th, I think, right? Of what? Month. And of October. What happened? So the offense was up around the place and they ushered everybody out. And they said, listen, just get out. I mean, they arrived. They arrived. They is in New Yorkers. And there were, there was heavy equipment. And they said. Like a full dose, right? Chocolate loader. Yeah. And they said, police presence. And they said, get out and get your stuff out. Did you know they were coming at that time? No, no, totally unclear. And, and apparently they said, take your stuff. Don't worry about all your stuff in here. Even if I can get it, we'll store it. It's safe. Don't worry. You can come back and get yourself. Just got out. Let's get out. And so people left in good faith, you know, that this, it was like, you know, we're trusting. Leave all your shit there with somebody with a bulldozer. All the shit you have in the world too, right? That's December 10th. But for the, when, when the people left as, as your, your, your place was threatened and that there were people who were in the middle of winterizing, setting up for, they had, they had everything set up for, to be prepared for winter. And they were grabbing what they could. And, and basically just having to abandon the money and work and money they had put into their structure. And the, the loss of that. Wait a minute. Oh, let's get, before we get there. There was a threat of arrest. So that. Right. That at that point, if you didn't leave. Yes. So the people left, but they left their property there. They didn't. All of it. And pretty much. All of it. Okay. You know, because they have a promise they could come back. Absolutely. Okay. Then what happened? People made decisions about leaving them there based on the word of this, you know, one person I don't remember who said. Well, it was, they, they, they, they left their things there because they, they, they believed also this, we had also filed the case at that point. And so that, that the court would hear our, our, our side of the story. Of course. Deliberate and then we would, we would have. Okay. All right. Before we get to the legal part. Okay. So then what happened? So people left and they left their stuff there. Yep. And they left all their stuff there. Their tents, their clothing, everything. Yeah. And including, including some personal items. Like what? I know somebody who lost their loved ones, the ashes. They left them there? Yes. And photographs? Photographs. Right. Photographs of their children. You know, I think a lock of their baby's hair stuff. You know, stuff that's irreplaceable. Things that, that would be harmful, not only irreplaceable, but really harmful to the people who lost them. Whatever. They left them. They left. They left. They just bulldozed. Wait a minute. How do you mean by that? The place who's bulldozed? These, these, were the bulldozers waiting until you left? Yes. That was the scene. Absolutely. How they, you know, looked at it. I'm sure that there was some instruction being, I make sure that nobody was going to, you know, freak out and jump in front of a bulldozer. As someone like, I don't know, people might react strangely. Yeah. If you just saw their home, who knows what they're reacting to. So most of that, there were some who were put in police cars and held back on point. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, What do you mean, put in police cars? Arrested. Arrested. So I'm being watched. And then you put in police cars. Directly was repositioned so that they could watch their, their, their home. But at the time that they first arrived, they told you to leave, but that they would respect your property. Is that fair to say? This is not as respectful. Protect. You're right. Okay. So that was, I'm the initial notice that we were getting, we were told that too, that anything that was left would be put in, in a container. And it would be inventory. And that, that everything would be cataloged and put in a container. And you heard that, Greg? Yes. Okay. And you? So I have, I mean, I have a piece of paper. You have a piece of paper that says that? I printed out a notice that says that. Okay. Then what happened? While we, some people were in the police cars, right, watching. Crime, I think actually. Then what happened? Where were you? Then I was, I was often printed out. I watched from distance. But you did watch? I, I, yeah, I watched. But did you see what happened? Okay. Did you? Greg? I saw the end. What happened? That there was, there basically was, I mean, essentially as a bulldozer, a front-runner moves, it took everything that the person owned. And every, every tool, every, every hand-built table, every piece of hard work, and he scooped it up and dumped it into, into, into a roll-up and dumpster. And he compressed it and, and it's gone. Yeah. I'm sounding a little hard, but I can see it. I can highlight. Then you can look back. I'll check. We're thinking once. Well, we have talked about, you know, the script. These guys go up and tell us that. For the most part, I think that's just what I heard from that scope. A lot of questions did come from there. They have to appropriately, you know, the other thing, you know, really the Vermont way, which I think we normally do when we sing, right? I mean, I think it's safe to say, right? Yeah, oversight, obviously, for anybody watching, you know. But then that's kind of disturbing out of here. I just want to make sure, would you kind of, you know, make an activation that. Throwing a police officer, as you're saying, position your car on purpose. So, there's really, I mean, this person could have been driven off. Well, stuff was so much better. Right. Was it not because he wanted to see, make sure he didn't do any stuff? Or it seems hard to me that they did everything really pretty proper through this whole point and that they were essentially, I mean, that's a pretty tough activation. When I'm saying, when we're saying proper, they were police visits and they were in our humanity and our dialogue and our mascot, who was this pitiful, he came out half pitiful with the hot dogs and they really had these interactions whatever was going on. And then, but when there were these, when there were these plans, basically, assaults or something like that. Yeah, they were, they were something like a mission. They, those, those, like the one, the last one, happened just before Don was used all acts of fear and intimidation to get them, to get them. But it's also correct that there were other people there other than the police, right? It wasn't just the police. Is that correct? Definitely. Or was it only the police? So that's, there were people who were notified at one o'clock in the morning that they needed to be down there at a certain time. And they were, they were sitting in voids. But they, it was, it was, the police liaison. But there was, it was, it was very much tactical in the definition of some, of psychologically addressing the people. Right. And making sure that things were there. Okay. So were they there at all during those times? Yeah. Just the police? Okay. So then you watched, Jason, these, all your property being pulled those are all the property of the camp, right? Yeah. These, these tiny houses or tents? Right. Period. Was a part of art there also? They, they were called in for response to, there was, so after, after the police had left, there was, there was a time when, when this instance where, where, where, where somebody, where, where there was, there was all this smoke that was brought up because somebody was spinning their tires and protesting what was going on with, with all the media coming in and just, and just landing in the middle of the devastation. The media came to? They came, they came. Immediately? Yeah. Who called them? They monitored. Yeah. The bull go to what? They can monitor. They can? Yeah. Okay. So the media was there too. So, so in short, not, this was a real eviction or not, I would use the word eject rather than eviction. An eviction is, goes through court and the court tells you to get out and you got five days to get out. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, but you didn't go to court. Nobody went to court. You went to court, but the mayor, but before that was decided for an eviction, this self help occurred and the city booted you out and took your property, right? Yes. Not just didn't destroy it. And how do you know they destroyed it? Well, it was just a juxtaposter. Okay. You watched that. And there were people in a place that was, there were people who were inaccessible. There were people who, according to the company, that was labeled on the container on the dumpster. They went and contacted them and said, how can we, we're happy we're all dumpster divers. We can, we can dig out what we need. Right. We can rescue what, what was, might have been by accident taken. And they said, there's, there's nothing we can do. They go straight to a compact and then they were shipped up to, to, to, yeah. Okay. I'm going to stop right there and see if there are any questions from, if that's all right with you guys. Oh, of course. I mean, so all of that property is now gone, period, right? And your camp is all busted up and you're all separated. And yeah, we're serving scattered for months. Okay. Are there any questions from the audience? Any questions? Yes. Are we the audience? Go ahead. I'm curious. During the time you were there longer than he was, fire department made regular inspections down there. We always talk about incidents where someone pointed something had a fire. And they were down there at some point. What was periodically checking things out or is that their distance? So, I mean, they're after the raid, the person feeling very defensive felt, I mean, completely powerless. They, they came up, they, they climbed onto their roof and said this, this, this airsoft practically deployed on the, on the roof. And, but who never was, I mean, that, that's menacing in itself, understandable, but never was, never raised it, never, never waived it correctly in some way. And it was nothing after the raid at the drug raid or whatever. And, and, but that was, that was after there had been just an escalation of, there was essentially mourning happening because this person who was the pillar of the community and who had actually been one of the, the active, I mean, not the community supporter of, of everyone and who was referred to as dad by many people who had, had, had never experienced somebody as close to that, that position in their life had been, had been costly removed. What about prior to that, the previous three or four years, fire department come down and make regular visits at all inspectors and the chief was courted, I'm not sure when this exactly happened except it was sometime during the end, going down there and saying that this, this place is going to close down, someone's going to die, very insane. When did that happen? Well, that was in an affidavit that it, that he submitted to the court base. Was that his only visit during the time this can't been existed? Officially, that's, that's the question that, that you know, I haven't heard. And when the bulldozers came in, they searched buildings and looked for dangerous heating equipment or, or sleeping, sleeping people, well, or anything. The chief declared this is a very dangerous place. Someone was certainly going to die. That's a good point. Anyone go in before the bulldozers moved in to make sure they weren't, about bulldozer left over, camp stone that was lit or a bottle of something, did they look for any of that, that this was so dangerous down there? Did they do that? I don't remember saying that. I honestly, I, that was a lot better. But one thing that, and that brings up the point is that in the extreme environment, in survival, in the survival situation that many people wouldn't, in the extreme that people were dealing with, having to basically make a shelter and survive out of a dumpster. Nobody died over the years that, that camp was, and it's, it's dangerous as people want to put it in, in the, the lifestyles and however, there was still, there were still more deaths on the other side of the tracks in, in late due than there ever had been in this place. And that, and that one visit that happened was the only time our major presence was known. What, what, but the best of them was there not one other time in this weapon or whatever it was, was there, that's what, that's what I wonder is, I thought I heard that early on. Really, so it's just that one incident where he placed the BB gun on the roof and that was it. A BB gun. Yeah. Something was concerned about conditions down there, was until the very end that anyone bothered to even look at it. Well, and that's right, that's just it, is, I don't know for years, but something, it wasn't until after the methrie that somebody, fire maybe the chief, decided he better don't take a look. This was a known area, situation was generally known. Everybody knew about it. And even just to protect people who know whatever went down. So this is Vanessa online. I had a question for Gray. We were talking to, it wasn't just that people knew about it. There was a settlement agreement, wasn't there Gray? And there was a policy. Yes, there was, there was always spoken of this, this, this policy that there was, that there had been the shelter in place policy that had been, that had been put together by the city and in collaboration with the ACLU. Oh, that was, that was about a different encampment though, wasn't it Vanessa? I think. That it applied to. Yeah, it applied. I've always wanted to see that settlement agreement. I think that was a year ago. Never got signed by the city. Steve says it was never signed by the city, right? Is that correct? Okay. I don't know that because I've never seen it, but I am aware that there was some kind of agreement forged by, or a different encampment. But that agreement didn't apply that there could be a, say a lawless dangerous error. The city could come down and pull those things and make sure things are okay. If they saw something wrong, asked for correction, it never prevented normal city enforcement people from going down, looking like they'd go into an apartment building to make sure the heating system is right. They could come down and the encampment and make sure someone could open fire. And usually that person would be certified into something like that. I had the police chief telling me that these, that these were not the code, that nothing was up to code. And I was, and I, that was, that was concerning to me because I, I wasn't sure. I didn't know that police chief was also. A total reward there. Yeah, it was not a code in force. There were fire chief, could be. Okay. Anyone else have any thoughts or questions? Huh? Yes? All right. I thought of this. Oh, okay. Who? Barry? No, it's me. Can you hear me? Who is it? Who is it? I can't know. I'm not seeing a face. John Franco is trying to speak. John. There he is. Is that him up there? No, I'm sorry. We don't hear you. You're breaking up Franco. Send us a text. I can hear you, John. Yeah, I can hear you, John. Why don't you tell us what he's saying, Vanessa? I don't want to put his picture up. Yeah. Yeah. He's waiting to speak now. Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? No, yes. Yes. Sandy, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, say something. Yeah. Well, you know, the ACLU settlement is really kind of the sort of the root of the problem. They had that lawsuit back in federal court. Gosh, I don't know when it was. It was, I don't know, 2020 or 2021. And they had a settlement. But the settlement said it had to be approved by the city council. And I don't know why, but the ACLU never made sure that the city council approved that settlement. And I think that people at Sears Lane were operating under the assumption that they had the protections of that settlement agreement. Keep in mind, this was sort of the result of them, I think, also closing down the housing or the tenting that was allowed out at North Beach during the pandemic. Yeah. They had my dates a little off. I'm a little rusty on this. But what happened was that never, the legal term was perfected. That agreement was never perfected because, frankly, the ACLU dropped the ball. Think that. And the people at the encampment thought they were operating under that protection. I think, quite frankly, that the city was acting as if they were there under the city protection, which brings up another, which is the next legal step was made that you guys weren't there as tenants. That's actually not true. Absolutely fucking were there as tenants under Vermont law. And the reason you were there as tenants is because the city knew you were there and they allowed you to be there. And actually, they were making arrangements to get water in utilities and portal at. And at one point, I think in the fall of, I get my years wrong, I'm getting old. I think it was last fall, last summer, he was talking about repurposing certain containers, using them as housing modules. So the city clearly knew you were there. The city clearly condoned it and the city clearly ratified it. Those were all legal terms. That created a landlord, tenant relationship between the people at Sears Lane and the city of Burlington. Under the law, the only way the city of Burlington should have been able to remove the people there would have been to get what's called the writ of ejectment. In English, an eviction order. Just evict people on your own through self-help. You have to get an eviction order. So how does the city of Burlington get an eviction order? They have to get authorization from the city council to have the city attorney go and apply to the court to get an eviction order. Well, they never did that. Why? They didn't have the fucking votes on the city council. They would have had a six to six vote. They never would have gotten authorization to do that. Right. And so what they did, I actually tried to get the city counselors to intervene in the lawsuit to say, Judge, the mayor doesn't have more authorization here. The mayor can't act unilaterally. It's the city council that acts for the city and the mayor hasn't gotten the city council's approval. And unfortunately, Judge Horror kind of paper over those distinctions and allowed this, essentially it was framed as if can the tenants prevent this from self-help removal? Right. That's completely upside down. The question is whether the city had the legal basis to order them to go. Right. Or how day it doesn't have that. And that was the that was the big that really bothered the hell out of me about what was happening there. And if I recall, one of the days they found there was pouring rain and then they did then the November eviction, I think frankly what I think the mayor just got ticked off because I think, Gray, you were saying that since the first notes have been posted, actually more people had moved back in. And I think he felt that you were snubbing your, you know thumbing your nose at him. And I think he just made a very sudden decision. At the very last minute and he called in like Vladimir Putin, he called in the troops and sent him in the next morning. I don't think there was much more. Oh, I do. Steve does. Talk behind him to that. Okay, John, Steve Goodkind has a has a kind of a different theory. I'm wondering if he wants to talk about why the mayor did this at this time. But I always wondered, and I knew he wouldn't do this is to proceed with an eviction proceeding in court. You knew that I knew that he would, the mayor would not do that because it could take years, particularly during the pandemic when I believe there was a moratorium on evictions. The problem with it is that there was a tendency, but unlike an ordinary residential landlord, a tenant relationship, it would be a tendency at will. There's no term. There's no term. There's no oral agreement. There's no lease. There's nothing like that. So it would have been a tendency at will if they could have gotten the city council to agree to the eviction, they would have been able to get an order that they had to leave. But they never got that. This day, they don't have that. They had to come think completely upside down, completely upside down legally. And there was, God, there's a Vermont case going back to the 1860s that if you have icicles hanging off your roof over your neighbor's property and the neighbor knows about that, you're the tenant of the neighbor. And then if you want to get that stuff removed, you've got to go through it and eject the proceeding. So it was very clearly, there was very, it wasn't like they didn't know and they weren't helping out. The city was involved in this thing up to its ears and it's what Steven pointed out. All this thing about, oh, there's a danger and all this stuff, they didn't do any investigations, they didn't do any inspections, they didn't do any of that. This was all plausible deniability to justify the mayor's decision that it was no longer fashionable to have these folks there to get them out. Okay. I think I see Barry's hand up. Oh, Barry. Yeah. Okay. I like everything that John said except for the use of the word tenancy because under modern Vermont law, tenancy is defined in the statute that you just made, the residential rental agreement statute and it defines a tenancy as involving a a domicile, a place that where you can, that has what is needed to prepare food, use the toilet and sleep. They had that very the city was not providing any of that. No, no, the city had provided some of that. That's not correct. The city had provided some of that and had made an agreement about it too. Yeah. And the other thing is this is like under that theory, Barry, then the promise is that if you just rent the land and somebody, you know, something, you know, the old days, sometimes you would have the land would be one thing and the building would be another. The argument would be there's no, well, the classic case is camps on Lake Champlain. There's a tenancy there that people own the camps and it was on lease land. The land is leased. There's still a landlord-tenant relationship with the lease. We had a big Vermont Supreme Court case involving all those camps on lease land on East Lake Shore Drive with the Supreme Court ordered all those camps to be torn down because there was arguably a violation of a lease because somebody didn't put up a what do you call it a wall, a shore protection wall. So it's clearly under the law is a landlord-tenant relationship at will. Yeah, under the residential landlord-tenant act, probably not. That's an Are you saying that a tenancy relationship, a landlord-tenant relationship can exist where there's no consideration? Yes. Yes. Okay. That's what we're saying, but I don't think we should end this on the law. Steve has one final comment. He believes he has a different theory about this is why the mayor acted when he acted. So let's hear from Steve, the prior public works director of the city of Rollington. If you look at the record of this and things were the same, you could have gone there two years ago, three years ago, one year ago, nothing was really changing that. It was the same. It was bad, it was bad, it was good, it was good. City was acquiescing to it, but I think something else came up, came up. If you look at the timeline and what was happening with the Southern Connector, if you know what this site is, it's either, right adjacent to or actually in the Southern Connector right away. In December, most people don't realize this, in December, the city was realizing now they were getting very close to having the environmental document they needed to put the project out for bid. And in fact, they did put it out to bid in February. They acted when they acted because there was no way they were going to put this project out to bid with the homeless encampment in the right-of-way that the contractor had to work. And I think that's what drove it. They were not sure but I think the methrade and I'm sure the statement of the fire department was all to give the mayor some kind of an emergency authority that this had to be dealt with now, even though these things had existed for years, the city knew what was going on down there to a degree and could have known more. But I think this has much to do with this project in the Southern Connector and they had to clear the right-of-way when they did so they could go out to bid and they did go out to bid. Okay. That's what's that is a huge factor behind the mayor's timing on this. And the other thing that in answer to Barry and whether or not these people were tenants, remember that these people testified just not testified but said right here that the city said that there was going to be electricity and water and port outlets to these tenants. So there was some sort of an agreement. I think you could show that in court that they that these people were tenants and were covered by the landlord tenant act. They could argue that they never had a chance to argue about it at all because the city came in and bulldozed that encampment and sent them sent them all flying and took the property. Before we end tonight currently there is hope that they will at least be able to get maybe a monetary settlement for all the property that was lost. Some of it though it shocks me that some of that property is absolutely priceless photographs of your kids ashes from your relatives. However that lawsuit for damages will continue. So stay tuned about that about the results of that lawsuit. Any final questions or statements tonight? Vanessa Brown is she up there? Any final questions? Vanessa is very helpful to these people and so I'm just giving her a chance to sort of I'm just hopeful that I could reach out to John in the future. I can give you his phone number. Great. You have for that John? Yeah I've got some research that I did. Actually I shared it with Gray back in I don't know October, November but it was I was just the first to judge was trying to claim that it was somehow a separation of powers issue and that the court didn't have any jurisdiction and it was all all up to the city and the executive authority of the mayor and I just went oh my god that was just and what I'm talking about isn't even the statue it's old common law it's stuff out of the 19th century it's old you know farm rural agricultural common law in Vermont and they and you know there was keep in mind there was also had been a discussion by the city council a few weeks or months beforehand about actually putting together a whole new approach of how they were going to man They lost you they've lost you again John you know the the Beverly Hibleys didn't just show up on the back 40 one night they didn't know about it that isn't what happened at all okay all right any thank you all for being here this is a evolving story and so we will be back at some point to talk further thanks very much and we'll leave you for this evening and thank you Jenna for organizing this see you later thank you Sandy oh by the way next week we're going to be discussing the elections in France okay bye bye thank you Sandy