 Oh, chat. Hello, everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly. Joining me, as always, is my co-host Tyler. What's going on, brother? How are you doing? Good to be here, man. Good to be here. I appreciate Paul Castro, I just saw in the chat. That's right, Anthony, I would never be late. It's not my fault. No, this was not Tyler's fault at all. I'll explain in a second. But first, I want to introduce our illustrious guest joining us from all the way on the other side of the world. Couldn't be happier to have him back on the show. Mr. AOS Shorts himself. It's Dan Street. What's up, buddy? Hey, guys. Can well? Glad to be here. Hey, we're glad to have you. That is for sure. We are going to be talking about you. I'm excited to be in the presence of a Warhammer hero. That's right. That's right. We all are. We all are. The bona fide hero. Bona fide days over here. That's right. We're all blessed to share the screen with Dan. We know that. So today, we're going to talk about scenarios and rules or battle plans or whatever you want to call them. That's what we're going to talk about. The GHB stuff, the battle pack, we're going to all be playing under over the next year. Now, a quick story as to why we were late. When I joined this call and we started, which is that we always start a few minutes early, all of a sudden the meeting told me this meeting is limited to an hour because now that's what we've been using Google Meet for this. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, Google Meet's limited to an hour now. And this call will just end if you don't pay us money. And I was like, well, I'm not doing that. So then we tried to do a Skype thing, but couldn't do that. So anyways, this week, I figured some stuff out. It's fine. The show is not going to end after an hour. But in the future, screw you, Google Meet. OK, that's all I'm saying. That is some ridiculous nonsense. You are peddling there. Give me a break. OK, so at any rate, here we are. They are definitely trying to grab some objectives. They have a battle plan to get money out of my wallet. It is not going to work. It will fail. That's what I'll say. So we're going to go through the normal stuff tonight. We're back to the normal cadence, I guess, we'll say. So let's start with the news. We have almost none. Yeah, basically nothing. So I think you mentioned we may not even have an image of what is probably clearly a 40k thing, which I certainly have no idea. It looked like maybe Astro Militarum, if anybody cares. Sure, it was a 40k thing. Yeah, so we could probably just move right along. And we have a Saturday preview happening. I think they said it starts at 5 p.m. British. So that's what? 12? Yeah, noon Eastern, yeah, this Saturday. So what do you guys think we're going to see? The Stormcast and Swamp Boggler's book and the rest of the figs for those. Yeah. Nice. Right? I mean, that's what it is. It seems pretty straightforward, yeah. Sorry, it's really the microphone is too far away. Yeah, those two things. I mean, Dan, what are the units you want to see out of the Stormcast? Let's talk about what matters here. Haven't we seen all of them? I don't think so. We're supposed to see them all? The ridiculous chariots and various other things. First of all, I completely agree the chariot's ridiculous. Thank you. It is 100% ridiculous. It should stay in the old world. Yes, especially after the Stormcast, who have this magitech ultra forge and a city in a space station, yet they're coming out with normal chariots. Lame, should have been a tank. Should have been a tank. All I'm saying. Should have been a tank. Snowdee's tank. Yeah, absolutely. It should have been a Stormcast tank, or I would have also accepted a Stormcast dreadnought for where souls that have been reforged too many times and can't go be a person again, they stick them into it like a big mechanical grungy made dreadnought. I would have absolutely accepted that. Yeah, still looking for, what was the keyword? Drakes, I think? Yeah, it was them dragonriders. That's what I want. Stormcast writing like Drake, Dragon, Draconian, Dracothean things, more of that, but like winged versions. Then you get some Dracoth riders on foot. You can have the dragon riders in the sky. Beautiful. Star Drake leading it up. Yes. Now who has Dracothean's tail? Freaking Seraphon, huh? Who's got it now? You keep the tail, we got the whole body. That's what I'm saying. Voice of Mork, that might be a thing. I think that was in the latest little story that they did. Yeah, I mean, the book will be all of the work lands cause obviously they'll be part of the bigger work lands book which I'm not excited about. I don't, just like, again, as I said last week, please GW, just phone it in on the iron jaws part. I don't want any work done. No work needs to be done here. But not improve on perfection. You have reached perfection, stop. Just stop. In fact, you can even just remove the sub factions and I'd be fine. We can just go basically straight iron jaws, no sub factions, existing command traits and artifacts. We've got a winner. I need nothing more. So good. You haven't lived until you ran two cabbages in 3.0. There you go. That's right. That's how we do it. So yeah, pretty short. You want to do some events? Particularly since we got there. Yes, I do. I do want to bring up the events because this is actually, we have all of the people responsible for this little spreadsheet in front of me in this cold. I'm going to let you two talk through this. Yeah. So Mr. Shorts, we've been working on aosevents.org in case anybody had seen it. Yeah, it's a calendar of all the events happening that we at least know of around the world each month. And we got a lot going on here in July. Dan, I probably should have ran this by your first. You might let me know if I've missed anything in July. Hopefully this got better. Cold arms, I assume that's still happening this weekend? Yeah, cold arms are still happening. It won't be affected by sort of local COVID issues down in Wellington. So that's going ahead. That'll be still AOS 2. That's over the both of the days. It's interesting going through July. I think cold arms warlords in the EU, I don't think is going ahead anymore. Then we've got Brishammer, that'll also be under AOS 2. They've got a longstanding policy of not playing anything with that in FAQ. But I think Grand Clash might be AOS 3. So that would be the first. Yeah, I was trying to determine that. I couldn't figure out what they were doing, but it's going to be a big event to look like up to 100 players. Yeah, they've got 60 before. Last year, I think they're regularly the largest event in Canada. And then we'll definitely get some AOS 3 events on the weekend at the 17th with Circle City Clash and Renegade Open and War Under the Mountain will be AOS 3. It'll be busy July. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, that last one there, Element Games is doing their event at Carnage. I wanted to give a shout out. So I'm helping out Jeff Nauman, a good friend with Siege World, kind of in August, a little point of privilege here. Just told him I wanted to make sure I mentioned it. He's got a few spots left, so anybody's interested. Unfortunately, it's overlapping with NashCon this year and I'm taking a lot of grief every week from Polkastro events and others about not making NashCon this year. I mean, yay on the event. I want it to be nothing but successful, of course. That's not any judgment on the event. Boo on you having to not be able to go to NashCon. That's the boo. So yes, same dates. I think August, I'm going to get this, let me look at it and make sure I get this right. August 21st of the 22nd. Yeah, Collinsville, Illinois. So two-day GT, 3.0. Maybe if any folks can't make it to NashCon, coming out to Illinois, it's going to be a good time. Jeff always runs an amazing event. He's really good at scoring system and everything, so. Which we'll talk about some scenarios for 3.0 and some scoring systems tonight, gentlemen. That is on the docket. Because there's a lot to unpack there. I think we got some big stuff. Yeah, good events. I really can't wait until we start seeing some AOS 3 events. I mean, obviously, it's funny because we're in this limbo where the book's not out. The stuff hasn't actually released. And I saw some people saying, like, why can't I find a place to go get all everything? And why aren't the FAQs out? I'm like, because the game hasn't released yet, you know? Yeah, you may have played five games of AOS 3 already, but it is still not out. It's not technically out, yeah, exactly. Yes, this is true. Oh, by the way, we're thinking Friday for the facts. Well, so I guess this is a sort of piece of news. They took down all the old facts. So all the old FAQs are gone. A barring like the base guide and the underworld stuff, you know, like the things that have nothing to do with the AOS 3.0, right? The things that would still be Perma Green are still there. And they had a little oopsie doozy because they accidentally re-uploaded then the, they re-uploaded the beast of chaos old version. But it was set to like 7.2, okay? To like July 2nd. So assumingly that's when they're gonna drop the FAQs because they had, like, they messed up the scheduling on one of them and pointed it toward the wrong file. And everybody was like, does this mean they're not gonna update the FAQ? No, no, obviously they're not just putting back up the A to 6.2 FAQ, right? So I think the thing that led to the sort of questioning there was that it had already, the actual wording on the FAQ, not just the file name had already been updated to July, 2021, but they hadn't changed the text. Right, so sort of much bleeding and gnashing of teeth. And then they immediately took it back down because it was like, clearly it wasn't supposed to be up. So, you know, yes. Oopsie, we had a little oopsie doodle. So there we go. I assumed that we'll have them all switched for their new versions on 7.2. That would be my hope, that'd be great. It'd be great if we had them there. So, when they said they'll be launching around the time of the release, we all just assumed the worst. It was like, all right, it's gonna be later. At some point later. There'd be a day earlier, that would also be true. We just sort of assumed the negative. So. I see there are Ridge. So Ridge said he and Jordan with Season of War, they're going to Circle City Clash, and it's gonna be AOS too. So, yeah, good luck, man. All right, there you go. Okay, well, I will be interested to see when we get those 3.0 events happening. There's a lot of things happening on July 17th and 18th, and I know we all want to wait for an FAQ, but at the same time, it's like, let's not. Let's get going. Why? Just get into it, get amongst it. Let the goblins accidentally hit for 64 attacks doing a million Mortal Wounds. Like, it's fun. Or put 11 spells through a spell portal. It's fun. With Coke. Yeah. What are you gonna wait a whole month after the game to play in a tournament? No, come on. Get the new rules up. What are we doing here? This isn't like, what are you worried about your score? This isn't chess, okay? Like, get out of here. Come on now. Come on now. All right, so I think that's all the news. If the thing on Saturday is really, really good, I'll press gang Tyler into doing a show, and if he's not available, I'll just come on and ramble myself about it. Okay. All right, so let's talk about some pick of the week. Move quickly here. Yeah, pick of the week. Dan, what would you like to share with everybody, my friend? Excellent, and I don't know if you shouted out last week, but the Texan cheat sheet for AOS 3, you might pick of the week. Very nice. The handy PDF now, version 1.5, I believe, with pretty much all you need to know for the AOS 3 rules on two pages. Yeah. That's a great pick. Yeah, it's amazing. I will share that out, because I think it is very, very good. I think that was the Austin Weird Nobs Gaming Club, and appropriately Austin, Texas. Yeah, they're part of the Texas Masters, yeah, a whole bunch of clubs down there. Yeah, really, really awesome. And I will say, having played more games now with my cheat sheet handy, it does just make everything so much faster, especially for picking battle tactics, because I just, you know, you set it up so you're like, boop, boop, boop, boop, you just walk down and you're like, okay, this is our command points, get the general still alive, gain to that, don't need to rally, okay, then, you know, yeah, this is gonna be my tactic for the turn, and then I go back to doing whatever I was gonna do otherwise, right, cast spells or whatever, so. Yeah. Fast and easy. Awesome, good pick, I like it. I will link it below after the show. Tyler, you have a bunch of picks. You did send those to me in advance, so they are already linked in the description, so. Got my limited three, so. You still want to mine, so I picked something else, it's okay. Okay, two very appropriate two tonight, we had the honest wargamer's chat this week about JHB21 battle plans, so it was a really good long discussion with the gang over there, and then same thing, ever chosen podcast, again, guys in Texas, they did an excellent podcast this week on the battle plans, just kind of going through them, all their thoughts, they're a bunch of competitive players, and then I really loved Russ Veal's article today on the corn faction spotlight, Warmer Community. It was some useful information about how to, in particular, play corn mortals in 3.0, all the different ways you can get sort of overlapping abilities, plus one attack here, plus one attack from over there, that sort of thing, really nice little article. Nice, awesome, good picks, like I said, all already linked below. My link will actually be a little more self-serving. There is a fantastic, what I've linked down below is a fantastic campaign review of Rain and Hell, and it's actually a nice, really detailed review of sort of the campaign system and everything in there. It's pretty great. It's, again, that one is already linked down below. It's by a gentleman named Cement Sol, and it's really nice, like goes through building a sports band and kind of the whole shooting match. So if you were interested in Rain and Hell and you haven't jumped yet and you want some more, like, really detailed information about it, beyond everything we've talked about, do check out that video from Cement Sol. I thought it was really thorough, so, and I was happy to see him doing it. Sounded like he really enjoyed it, which thumbs up. Rain and Hell, the book is back up. It's available now. Link is always down below if you're interested in checking out some miniatures agnostic, brutal, fast, campaign-based skirmish action. All right, gentlemen, let's talk about some hobby time. So, Tyler, you got some games in, right? Yeah, yeah, my first test with Sylvaneth. So last night, it was a Slog Fest, as I was a little worried about, with Sylvaneth and 3.0. So let me give you, try to give you some highlights of the game. It was really interesting, actually. So, I played against a Toughest Nails, Legion of the First Prince list. Okay. With Bellacor, Vermilore Deceiver, with the Five Up, doing mortals. Sure, standard kit out. Ethier Mortals, yep. Skiddle Leap, Warped Lightning Vortex. You know, you skiddle leap, then potentially do Warped Lightning Vortex. We've got Kairos, that can help. He had Kairos as well, doing all of his tricks. Just all the nonsense, sure. All the nonsense, really strong list. Yeah, just corn demon prints to top it off, who I've told you absolutely despise. Yeah, that. So, apparently, in Legion of the First Prince, if anybody didn't know, this might be coming your way soon, he can be a two plus save, re-rolling through the armor of the pact, or something like that, some artifacts. Yeah, so. I don't see a prop here, seems fine to me. Sure. So, I was doing a grab bag list with the trees, just trying out a little bit of everything. Had Worsong Revenant, of course. Chalice, well, I'm gonna go all the diseases, but kind of kidded out, Chalice, Nile Roots. Had Cogs, and Spitesworm Hive. Wasn't trying out Spell Portal, wanted to see how it went. We have a lot of folks talking about Worsong Revenant with Spell Portal, in particular with Unleashed Worm of Spites, you know, to do the AoE, Mortal Wounds, the Spell Portal. Yeah, so I wanted to try it out without that, this game. Had him, Derthu, with minus three rent swords. So, you can take Daith's Reaper, which almost we never took with the second book. I don't even think it was in the first book. The thought being that, if you can find minus three rent in 3.0, you're gonna wanna take it. Sure, yeah, yeah. And that was. Yeah. You either take the minus three rent, or you take the plus two attacks. The plus two attacks, right, right. Cause you can potentially roar, which can help, you know, on a three plus, turn off potentially the ability to stack against rent. So yeah, that was one of the little debates I've been having. Grim of Gladius with the plus two attacks, or Daith's Reaper, so. And then we had, anyway, so that was kind of, I had Drychus trying to hurt as well. Some bows, some swords, et cetera. So, one of the main things immediately stood out, like one of the things we were always finding was Sylvaneth in 2019 to 2020. If you were not playing Dreadwood, you might struggle just to play on objectives and get around the board, in terms of getting your trees out. And I think that might still be the case. So, can I have this debate, you know, as a true Lord Ancien, who is quite expensive now, still going to be almost an auto-include, if you don't have a, if you're not in Dreadwood. So that was the first thing. Sure, or if you don't like, I have a Laurel or something insane. What's that? I said, or if you don't have a Laurel or something insane like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Where you're like metamorphicizing heroes into forests, basically. Exactly. Yeah, potentially you could do that. But yeah, there's still a lot of risk that you get, you know, if you're not a one drop, and if you are a run drop going against another, you lose the tie. Someone that drops you, they take first, they get an unbind range. Sure. And then there's plenty of spelldowns out there that could potentially, yeah, shut off your ability to get any woods out. So I think the true Lord Ancien might still be an auto-include in a lot of lists. Warsong Revenant was insane. You know, you just got to get like, even one throne with the chalice, three dice, picked the two highest, and the built-in plus one to cast to spell an unbind. I mean, Kyros, half the game couldn't do anything. It was like 12, 13, 14, 15s on cast rolls with the Warsong doing up to three casts. So yeah, they were, it was a really close game. It snuck it out around five, but yeah, that first one, I think Sylvaneth have a lot of play in this no addition. This is kind of a longer sort of it. Sure. Well, we're gonna, I think we'll get into the tempo and the feeling of it. I honestly think that a lot of armies will have more play just because of the nature of how the game's changed. It's really interesting. There's a few minor things that are pushing stuff around and we'll get into it, I'm sure. Dan, what about you? What have you been hobbying on? You got any games in yet? Have you played some 3.0? You've been painting anything? What are you doing? No games in yet. We've had a lot of late night sport on, so I've been doing a lot of building. So Lumeneth Endless Spells, Warsong Revenant for an event at the end of July. We're gonna have a one-day on OS3 rules where I'm gonna take the trees along. So I need a Warsong Revenant for that. Got a Celestin Prime built in Draster from the Dominion Box. The Realm Shaper Engine, a whole load of random stuff that I just had. Oh, three Stegodons, two Distelladons, a whole load of random stuff I just had in boxes. I just sat and built whilst watching football. So it's been a good month. Nice. Nice. For myself, I did get another game in. It was a good time. Got my Slaves to Darkness out. And I actually ended up playing some Nighthaunt. I learned that Chainrasps and Rikenoar's new thing are not to be, with all of their buff heroes around them, are not to be underestimated. You know, when they're on like threes re-rolling all, threes re-rolling ones, two attacks each on like 25 mil bases. He was like, okay, I'm gonna have like 50,000 attacks against you here. And I was like, well, what, what, hold on. What, what was that number? And then he went through the bonuses and I was like, oh, I have, because I chose to fight with like something else first, then the Cast Knights, I had charged into the, the, the, the Chainrasps. And then after that, I suddenly realized I have made a horrible mistake. And then there were like no Cast Knights left. Yep. So anyways, you live and learn. I was very angry with myself for a lot of that game. That boy could still at 220. That's pretty good. Oh, it was in the game. It did some harder now. Yeah. It took me, it took me way too much effort to kill that stupid thing. So, so frustrating. Yeah. I did eventually kill it. It's a great piece. Has Smashbat smashed yet? Not in 3.0. I've played the army a couple of times under 2.0, but I'll get it out under 3.0. I'm only four games into 3.0. So, and then I'm also, and then on the painting table, we're working on Cragnos here, a big, big, big, big craggy. He's, he's coming together. I'm trying to do him to an extraordinarily high level. So he is taking forever. And I am quickly losing my patience with that. Too much stuff on my table that needs to get painted. But here we are. Anyways, yeah. So, okay, cool. Well, I, we're gonna talk about, I'm sure our experiences in playing some of these 3.0 games or what we think is gonna happen is gonna come up here now, because there you go. Guess what? It's time to talk scenarios. All right, so let me bring up, there we go. Let's bring up the correct PowerPoint here. General's Handbook Pitched Battles, 2021 scenarios and overhead special rules. Let's start at the high level. Before we get into it, as always, Dan, what's your, what's your initial take on GHB 2021? You excited about this battle pack? You think it's gonna do some work? What do you, what do you think? Do you like the fact that we're now going seasonal where like, you know, we're in only ger this season. And, and assumingly next year, we'll be in a different realm. What's your take? Yes, to all of that. Yes, seasonal gives the option to have a sort of tighter set of defined battle packs. I like the idea of a sort of solid battle pack concept. So here is all the elements. We've considered the interplay between all of them. It's just sort of pick up and go for tournament organizers and you can slot in the bits that you want if you want to be different. But here is vanilla balanced mash play. So I like that. The overall impressions of the battle pack that we're gonna be talking about today is that we do have a game where games are gonna go longer. So you're gonna be fighting right through to round five with much, with more paths to victory. So you're not gonna be approaching the game and go right after two turns I'm out. I've lost this, so I'll give up. There's multiple paths to come back in. And when we get onto the sort of waiting between objective scoring versus secondary scoring, you'll really see that you don't need to win on, you don't need to play for the objectives in some scenarios, you'll be able to win on secondaries. So really interesting to see that with the combination of the changes in the core rules meaning greater interactivity in opponent's turns. The people that are gonna win are the real good tabletop generals that can stay engaged for two and three quarter hours switched on all the way through. So it's gonna be mentally draining at the end of three games on a single day. You're gonna be mentally fatigued. I've already rolled out, getting back into Sivano for five rounds, two days, that's not happening. There's no way. This is where the Sons of Emma players shine. They're like, I've got four rules to remember. I'm in the game completely. Easy, easy. Decision fatigue will be a thing. And it's gonna be interesting to see in those first few events, how many games get to time into hours, three quarters given the amount of decision making you're making along the way. Yeah. Tyler, what's your take overall? Yeah, one thing you said, Dan, that stood out that games will tend to go longer. I think that's right. I could see that we might have more frequency around two situations. You're either blown off the board early or the game will go pretty long. I think we'll still have a lot of matchups where, I mean, obviously, players' skill will come into play where this will happen, regardless of whatever army is on the table. But yeah, someone will maybe still get doubled and just get ran over in round two, let's say. Or that two to three. The disincentive for the player that is sort of piloting the steamroller, as it were, is you're giving up battle tactics. And in battle tactics, they're going to be one of the main determinant of factors in terms of tie breaks between players on similar scores and events. Otherwise, you actually want to prolong your opponent's pain. You want to keep them in the game because you want to be maximizing secondary scoring. Wow. Even as the powerful army, you want it to go five turns to run up the scoreboard. Yeah, no, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, overall, I'm really excited about this battle pack. I love the idea of playing in a realm for a season. We'll see how long, presumably it's going to be a year, six months to a year. And yeah, I think they did a nice job with realms of gur rules that we're getting. We'll have to see how seismic shift works, which we'll get into what that is. But in terms of burning an objective, potentially, you have the choice in round three if you go second. And it's not on all of them, but it's in some of them. I think that can have a sizable impact. Obviously, monsters, monsters, monsters with this one. I think there's some counterbalance. We'll get into whether it's enough in terms of the value of monsters with this. But yeah, I think it's a nice mix of missions. I'm a little, the tournament scoring system is pretty unclear to me right now, which again, we'll talk about more. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, for me, I love the idea of setting it in a single realm for a season. I think that we finally hit on the right way to do realm rules. It took us the entire new AOS, but we got there. Yeah, this was right. Caleb, the answer is no. It's in 19 something, one or two. I don't remember exactly which, but it's in the core rules and the answer is no. And then, you know, Jack said my first GHB 2021 game took over four hours, though that was about having to constantly look up new rules and battle tactics. Yeah, it's funny, because my games have all been faster. Okay. And now, admittedly, like I said, I mean, I've had cheat sheets for everybody who's at my table, right? And so we're just literally going down the cheat sheet to make decisions like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right? And I think once you sort of like the hero phase decisions pretty straightforward, right? And then it gets to the, it gets to the, you know, do I like your enemy moves? Okay, do I need to redeploy? No, I'm good, right? Like it's once you kind of internalize the decision points, they tend to happen fast, right? Because you take like the hero actions, okay? The only one hero gets to do it. If you've got somebody who's injured and you want them to live, you're just gonna default to the healing one, right? Otherwise, if you don't need to dispel, right? Then you're basically just going to end up picking, I'll try for a command point, which I did enjoy. I think I made eight roles at a command point during the game I played. I officially got zero of them with my general on the table. So eight four plus has failed, good times. But at any rate, yeah, I will say that like, I think once you, my expectation would be the first couple of games you will probably be longer, especially if you're not using like a cheat sheet of something, okay? To like kind of remember everything. Tokens are gonna be really valuable in this edition. And then if you are, well, yeah, like I have my little magnet as I've talked about many times, like I have the ultimate solution for this. Tokens are nonsense, no. I have a dry erase marker, like a fine tip dry erase marker, and you can buy tiny fridge magnets. They're an inch by one and a half inches, okay? And I have a stack of them, literally sitting next to the table. And one of them already has finest hour written on it. And then whatever bonuses I get, plus one to hit, plus one to wound, whatever's going on, whatever bonuses and penalties, I just write it on there with a dry erase marker and set it next to the guy. I need no special tokens. I need one little tiny magnet. And it's easy and then you don't forget anything. And when you're done, just go wipe it off. It's so easy. Rich, Richie, and you've been talking, that's what he does. I wouldn't see that in his just place here. The little fridge magnets are the way you go. You can get like 200 of them for a couple dollars off of Amazon or whatever. Anyways. The thing that I'd say there about the cheat sheets is the important thing is often having that decision tree is not just what your options are, but a reminder of in what scenario you want to use it. So the sort of questions you ask yourself. So then is someone injured or whatever, because otherwise you still get that sort of list of five. And if you haven't played in a month or have a long, you've lost that sort of muscle memory of what factors you're taking into account when you're choosing which one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sort of the, I think that's exactly right. The more you internalize the sort of decision tree, the faster everything gets, right? Because it is just, it's the same decisions you're making over and over and over again, every round. Who's gonna roar? Who's gonna just stomp for some extra mortal wounds? Who needs to self heal, you know, that kind of thing, right? Like that's all you're doing. Yeah. So it's pretty straightforward. Okay, awesome. So let's get into the actual stuff here. Let's talk about the basics first. So the rules of playing in girth, all right? And this is where we get to the special rules because this is effectively the equivalent of our old realm rules, but this time we only get one of them, right? That's the trick. We're getting one realm, this is where the games are set. Now, I will say you don't have to use these. That's really important to understand off the rip. There is a basic set of matched play rules in the core book and that comes with full grand strategies and battle tactics and everything. Like you could just use that and ignore all this crap. Okay, and that's fine. And I do wonder in my head if we're gonna see if some people do that. Like ignore this stuff and just go for the basics. I really do have that question. I will be interested to see, I think events for the most part out of the rip are just gonna use this because why wouldn't you? Yeah. But I'll be interested to see over time if some of this stuff doesn't get annoying. And we'll talk about it when we go through the show because I have some feelings. I've got some opinions. Because I've played under- It's not strong feelings. I would call them like medium strong at this point. They're not refined enough. Like two under the basic match play rules and two under the ger rules, which is what I've played so far is not really enough to form a strong opinion, right? It's enough to form like a medium opinion. Gotta leave that on the grill a little longer. So it's like chicken. You don't want a pink center on that opinion. Not at all. That's not good. Okay. So your basic rules. Predators and prey, once per battle round, you score one additional victory point. If any enemy monsters were slain in that battle round. Okay, cool. So like there's a lot of incentive to use monsters. This is the incentive to fight against the monsters and kill them, right? You get bonus victory points. And we can talk over time about what that all means. Seismic shift at the start of the third battle round after the players roll off to determine who has the first turn, the player taking the second turn in the battle round can pick one objective marker on the battlefield and remove it from play. Woo, gentlemen. I just read the most single impactful thing that will be happening in games, period. There is no rule written in the core rules or any army book that is going to be as impactful to who wins the game as this thing. That is my argument. What do you think? That's down. So this applies in, how many snow is are we dealing with 12 battle plans? So this applies in eight of the 12 battle plans because four of them, or seven and a half, because four of them have prime objectives so can't be subject to this rule and they can't be removed. And another one has half prime objectives and half normal objectives. But yes, the ability to remove an objective and deny it from your opponent or in the case of marking territory, to remove it and win the game, is yes, powerful. Yeah, I mean, that's the key. If we end up gravitating towards all of the prime objective scenarios, which by the way, I don't think we will for reasons we'll discuss when we get into that. No, we'll have a mix. Yeah, those. I really think this is just like crazy impactful to the overall game, crazy impactful. So I've played two games so far where the outcome probably would have been different had it not been for who won the priority in round three. And both of those games, I probably would have lost if I had not gotten the ability to choose, ability to go second and choose. So the first one, I think we were playing in a similar list that have been some the same day. I was playing Nothon that day and I had a little mistake that kind of got me behind the A ball with Iron Jazz and he could have easily won that one if he had gotten that round three choice to burn. And same thing last night, I think it was really so. Yeah, that seems like it's gonna have a considerable impact, but that's only two games that, I don't know, it's kind of hard for me to really have a sense right now. Yeah, I want to answer a couple of questions in the chat. Could we at a tournament use the battle tactics in the core book and the GHP? No, because there are some duplicates there. So it wouldn't make sense to have it. Like you could customize some synergistic list, but I actually think that makes it worse. So we'll talk about that. One of the things I'm gonna allege, one of the things I'm gonna argue when we get to tactics here in a moment is that one of the reasons that this is worse is because there's more. The core rules have six, you have to alternate. Core rules only give you six, this gives you eight. It's too many. That's my argument. Is it too many because it's too easy to choose five that are gonna work? Yep. Yep. There's always gonna be five. You almost have to design your list to suck. Yeah. Like if you're the worst person at writing lists ever, I apologize, I'm sorry. Okay, it's cool. You're not gonna be able to complete five. But in the basic ones in the core rules, it's sometimes a stretch. You get to the bottom of the barrel and you're like, oh geez, I really gotta, we're gonna have to stretch here a little. In these, both the games I played every round I was like, yep, that's a slam dunk this turn, no problem. And I've achieved it. Right, like it was never in question. It was never in question. Most games so far have matched that and thus it's been consequential when you fail to get one of your battle tactics. Yeah, for what reason? It's almost a surprise when you don't. Something goes horribly wrong, right? And then you're like, you charge in to some unit of three battle line guys with like two monsters with impact hits. You roll two ones on their impact hits and don't do anything. And then you proceed to like whiff with both of them and one guy, or he rolls out of the box on saves and one dude stays alive and you're like, okay, well that was the one and a half percent mathematical chance that occurred, right? So, okay, I guess just I lose this game. All right, so seismic shift, big deal. Realm sphere magic is metamorphosis. Basically you can take a hero and turn him into a monster. You give him the monster keyword. Very useful for if you're going to be need to be achieving battle tactics. I think we'll keep metamorphosis in mind. Keep in mind though, when you do that it sticks until your next hero phase. So you're also creating risk because if they've been killed that hero, that hero is now worth a bonus VP to them. So little risk, little reward, use it smartly. We'll talk about it in terms of the battle tactics when we get there, because that'll really kind of set the stage for that. And then feral roar. You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase. The unit that receives this command must be a monster until the end of that phase. When you look up a value on that damage table it is treated as if it has suffered zero wounds. Sure, the important part to note there is that you cannot use it with all out attack or all out defense, which is often what you may want to be doing with your monster and or getting any other combat phase based command ability of which there are like a million, million in the game. Yeah. So it's competing for the most valuable command ability timing, right? How does it work with the Indrasta? So the sort of, I've worked out all sort of overlapping negating effects that work in iOS 3. Oh, yeah. So it uses, basically it uses, what's the right word, like last in, first out or whatever, like life, oh, I think it's system. Last applied. Yeah, last applied, yeah, exactly. So technically she would already have applied hers because it's an aura that's just writing on them. And then if you use the command it would overwrite her ability. It's how it would seem to be for the core rules. I don't have the book in front of me but there's an activated ability section that like 1.6 something that covers this. And as near as I can tell, that's how it would work. So. 100, grab a book. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. The, I mean, my answer is it's fine. That's a fine command ability. It's cooler when you can just do it. Like if you're Avangore or whatever and you can just do it and you don't need the command ability, right? Or if you're cheater, Lumineff and you can just have like a stone mage near your giant cow mountain. And so the cow mountain just gets to like be at the top of his profile because he's got a little buddy. You know, those kinds of things, obviously. So. All right. I think most of these are gonna come into effect when we talk about the next sections. So gentlemen, let's plow ahead here. Yep. Grand strategies. All right. The grand strategies. In the base book, there are three. Okay. And they overlap with these completely. Okay. In this one, there are eight. Grand strategies are added to your army list. You actually put them onto your army list. It's what you're trying to complete. Okay. So it's not something you change battle to battle round to round, et cetera. You pick a grand strategy and that's what you've done. Right. So after you have picked your army, you must pick one grand strategy and record it on your army roster. First sentence. Okay. So. All right. Gentlemen, I'm gonna burn through these real quick and then we're gonna discuss them. Okay. I'm just gonna rattle this off real fast. Here we go. Sever the head. You complete this grand strategy if there are no zero nil the null set heroes from your opponent's starting army on the battlefield. Hold the line. When the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy. If there are any, at least one or more, battle line units from your starting army on the battlefield, vendetta. When the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy. If the model chosen to be your opponent's general has been slain and your general has not. Both chosen generals, meaning not bonus generals, chosen generals. Dominating presence. You complete this grand strategy. If there are more units from your starting army on the battlefield and there are units from your opponent's starting army, Beastmaster. When the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy. If there are any monsters from your starting army, price sorcery, any wizards from your starting army alive, pillars of belief, any priests from your starting army alive, and Predator's Domain, also known as the one probably everybody will pick if you make the smooth brain choice because it is the one that requires absolutely nothing, has nothing to do with the enemy army or achieving anything. And at the bottom around five, you just move any remaining troops you have onto any piece of terrain that's within range and you seize control of it. Because when the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy. If you control more terrain features than your opponent. Yeah, within three inches, I believe to control the terrain feature. Other than that, it's objective control, right? You count as people and need to be on or within three inches, yes. Right. All right, gentlemen. What's your, first of all, I hate that Predator's Domain exists. It's so stupid because what it's gonna mean is that like in round five, everybody just goes, blah and jumps on buildings and forests and everything because it is just the one that like doesn't matter what your enemy's doing, right? Or what they did or what's in their army. Like I would never, ever pick Sever the Head. That is insane. Sure. It's insane. That's probably the worst one, yeah. Absolutely the worst one. Can I just make two preliminary comments? Hit me, go. One is that why do we care about grand strategies? We care about grand strategies because you get three victory points for completing it in each of the 12 battle plans. That you also care about it because if you are tied on victory points and tied on battle tactics, if you get your grand strategy and your opponent doesn't, then you get a minor victory. If you both get your grand strategies, then you get a draw. So that's why we care about grand strategies. My reaction to the list, Vince, was three victory points is a lot. So we care about them, but they seem everybody should be able to achieve them. Like if you've picked the right choice and actually put some thought into it, it should be easy to achieve either because you picked Predator's Domain or you've got an easy option like you've got a million wizards or you've got that you can run around or you've got your silverneth and I take an 80 point unit of tree revenants which are battle line and I just play 80 points down because I keep teleporting them around anywhere on the board or I keep them in reserve until round four or whenever you have to put them on and I only bring them on for two turns and just boop them around the place. I get my three points. Agreed, agreed completely. I think it's just like you put about, if you're playing a scaven army and you have a vermin lord or two and thank wool and a gracier on foot and an arch warlock and a regular warlock. It's like, okay, cool. I'll just take the wizard one because one of those rats is gonna live by the end of the game, right? You're not breaking down all of them. One will be alive. So we have all of this and all of these different options but people are just gonna pick one and instant and effectively get it 99% of their games. So... So I hadn't noticed that before, Dan, that yeah, the controlling of terrain is the same as objective control except consider six inches, it's three inches, which means that you can contest and then take control and then move away. Yeah, right. So that I had completely missed the ability to move away from that. Yeah, do that with your little teleporters during the game. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah, you either do that or you pick the hold the line and your tree webs are the ones that you keep alive. The battle line, yeah. Yeah, I mean, hold the line feels like an easy choice for somebody like Iron Jaws where everything's battle line or if you're playing the 18 Ogre Glutton's army, it's like, well, good luck, I guess. You're probably not removing that. Or if you're playing Sons of Behmats where like basically hold the line is the destruction choice. It's like the destruction to full choice. Hey, even my Megazord battle line and chances are you're not gonna remove, you're not gonna table me probably like tabling giants is actually kind of hard in the new edition for reasons we'll talk about. Please kill all four of them. Yeah, please kill all four of my mega-gargants. Good luck. Did I mention this one has like 40 wounds and a five upside after save, sorry. It's like, okay. So, you know, one of them is gonna be alive and they're all battle line. So yeah, I agree. And it's funny because I think the big challenge, I'll kind of spoil this now. I think the big challenge in this edition is gonna be victories will often be one or two points apart. Now, that's not true for every scenario, okay. That's true for a set of scenarios that have a new scoring system that uses the new scoring system, which eight out of the 12 do, okay. And I think in those scenarios, the scores when you win, you will be up by like one. Yeah, yeah, that was the working conclusion that I mentioned earlier that you may often fall into two states. You're either, your toys are taken off, maybe early, you know, let's say early, round two, round three, 2.0 style. A lot of games in 2.0 were over. Yeah, round two, certainly by round three. Or yeah, it's gonna go long and it's gonna be close. That's generally been the case that I've experienced so far in six games. Yeah, I mean, almost like my experience has been, well, let's, I'll save it, I'll save it for this. I'll save it when we get a summary. My point is if you choose the wrong grand strategy and duff it, you've almost instantly lost the game, I think a lot of the time. Because my argument is games will be that close that if you give up the three points, you lost. Yeah. So just don't pick the wrong one. Don't foot fault before you start. Yeah. Right, right. Just pick the one that you reasonably know you have an easy way to accomplish, right? Like I have five near immortal wizards. Okay, great. I'll pick that one. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. That certainly would help predators domain. Sorry Dan, if you have the requirement that you assess in round five, let's say, oh, I guess you would have to, maybe you would assess at the bottom of round five. And I'm just thinking like that really does change predators domain in my mind in terms of the ease of some list to achieve that as you're booping around the game and racking up your control. I mean, even if you're, well, anyway, there might be some situations, but yeah, go ahead, Dan. Oh, I don't know if I had something to go with. No, I think you're right. Like predators domain becomes the ultimate, predators domain becomes the ultimate default. Yeah. Does that make sense? Like if you don't feel like you can take anything else, you take predators domain and your basic plan is in round five, everybody runs for terrain. You retreat out of combat, you just run. You just, everybody on a building, go. Thinking about cool rules and contesting, you can only, units only count as contesting for checking for contesting on one. If you have captured and then move away, you still hold. You still hold. You still hold, but you then can't. But if you've held it, do you need to, you're not contesting it again. You've just held it. So can you then go contest another one? Yes. Yes. Because it remains under, because you as a player control, your units contest. So my tree revenants hold something in my backfield, then they move off and in the next turn, they contest another one. And so they have contested a new terrain feature in the next round, gained control of it. And they have effectively gained control for me of two terrain features. And then the next turn they move off again. They just grab another one. Yep. You've got these tree revenants on like a world tour. And unless the enemy intentionally contests the terrain, which they can't do while they're contesting objectives of the same unit, right? Then at the end of the game, it's be like, ha, I accidentally won that one. Why would you take anything other than Predator's Domain? Yeah. Because whoever goes in the bottom of five does have an incredible power to win it, right? Yeah. Like in the bottom of five, you just have an incredible ability to grab the thing. Yeah. So we had a close game last night. I mean, my opponent chose Predator's Domain. He didn't have any units left. It went the full five rounds. And he, I guess, we actually read it incorrectly, which may have impacted now thinking, you know, we would have to track. You could test all game and start controlling it and then push them to track. Right, exactly. We weren't tracking that. So very well may have been the case that he would have had control over. That's just annoying that, I mean. Right. It's something you now have to like mark who's having to use the terrain. I want to answer a few questions here. Does it remain a terrain feature if it's smashed to rubble by a monster as part of Monsters Rampage? Yes. All scenery destruction crap that's in the game right now, from the most effective, which is the Gatebreaker Gargant, to the least effective, which is Monsters Rampage. That includes the Severoth Wind Fox. Break your terrain. It includes the Idolaters. We smash your faction terrain because we just spoil it. All of them that exist. Do not remove it from being a terrain feature, which is all that's required here. They might, most of them just remove scenery rules. Some of them, like the Giants, would actually remove keywords and replace it just with scenery rubble, but it's still a terrain feature. So, and then Chris, do we have a clear definition of what a terrain piece is for control? Do we have to keep track of every control of every piece of scattered terrain? No, because they specifically say in the rules, scattered terrain does not count as terrain. It's just a thing that you put on the board to make it look pretty. They specifically give examples of what scattered terrain is and limit and talk about sizes for terrain and what a terrain feature is. So, okay. It's one of your eight standard terrain features for the Battle Pack. Yep, exactly. So, I mean, just to wrap this. In terms of what, yeah. So Beastmaster stands out if you're running a lot of monsters. I think it's terrible. People are gonna be hunting after your monsters to get them VPs. I'd never take it. Yeah. Unless you're Archeon. Archeon, right? And you're just like, look, look guys, I'm on like a two up re-rolling this whole game with layers upon layer and I'm just gonna heal every round like 3D3. So, I'm never gonna die. So I guess I just auto-complete this or the wizard one, right? Like I just get those for free. We're gonna need to do an hour and a half show just on Archeon and potential counters. Yeah, and why he's 100 points too cheap. Yeah, sure. Yes. So, yeah. Let's see. Dominate Presence, Battle Instruction, there are more units. MSU, maybe. Never pick it. Never pick it. You don't know what your opponent's gonna show up with number of units. You can think you've got a lot and then they show up with the Gyrocopter spam army and you're like. Or Sam Morgan's a million. Gather runners and night runners or whatever. Right, right. Just know, don't even risk it. You're relying on a wincon, totally out of your control. Yeah, don't risk it. All the lines seem solid, follow a sequel. Something you can potentially control a little bit in terms of, you know. Sure. Being a sturdy cat, listening to that alarm. Where basically you're overrunning with solid battle line and like every unit, like again, iron jaws, you know, sons of Batman. Sure. To me, the argument here is between hold the line, price sorcery and Predator's domain. Find the one of those three that work. And then the model Chesmear opponents general has been slaying the model Chesmear. Yeah, that could still be a little bit. No, because again, somebody shows up against you with Archeon and you're like, okay, well, never mind. Yeah, Archeon and the Gash. Sure. Right, yeah. Like the only, what hitting power do you have in your army that you're positive you can take out a host Arcanum Archeon? Right, right. That I'm not sure that hitting power exists in the game right now. I'll say that. Yeah. Like he might just be immortal. Yeah, after playing a corn demon prince last night that was doing a good impression of a mini Archeon with his two up rerolling save nonsense and I'm rocking with monastery rend and still sweating it to try to get some damage through. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I'm not being funny. I legitimately, I'm not sure there's anything in the game capable of killing him anymore. Yeah. Just because the nature of like certain things got sort of kneecapped. Like the, one of your biggest melee damage guys, like your Khamquat, your Gull King on Terror Geist, right? He can't do all of his tricks anymore because he can't get the bone as well at least. I mean, barring PDFs that come in two days that change stuff or whatever. You know, he doesn't get all his tricks anymore. A lot of things like that happened. And he was already near immortal before. Yeah. And he's way more immortal now that he can just every hero phase, another D3, another D3, another D3. And in his own Europe he's just phase is 2D3. All right. Kragnos popping off a six and a six or six and a five. Yeah. I mean, that's your hope, right? Does Kragnos run into him and you do you double six? And it's like, boom, got him. Like that's your hope, you know? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This is why I focus on other battle tactics. Yes, exactly. Like again, yeah. Yeah. Work on the wind condition that does not evolve you removing Archeon from the table. Yeah. I mean, Chris, we talked about the FAQ on the Eye of Edge here in the Core Rules episode. I personally don't think there's actually any confliction right now between the Eye of Edge herein and other rules because I don't think it's conflicting timing. I think one is predicated on the role and the other things are predicated on an unmodified role and there's two different game states, two different triggers. I think that's clear based on the timing set up in one five five versus one six four. But again, I can see why reasonable people would disagree, I'm sure they'll FAQ it. Jobs are good. Okay. Battle tactics. So the start of every round in your hero phase you pick a battle tactic. You cannot pick the same battle tactic twice. All right. There are eight of these. Many of these are very easy. Like too easy. And you get two points every round that you complete your battle tactic. This is really important because in the, what we'll call the now standard scoring model, the most you can get off of objectives is three points. Now there are exceptions in plenty of scenarios. We'll talk about them, right? But assuming the standard scoring method, it's three points off the base, two points off this, five points total you earn per round. Obviously two out of five points is a pretty big deal. Okay. So you want to get these. All right. Go ahead. The only thing I was going to add was these aren't just two points because many of them, you get an extra VP if you achieve them with a monster. There you go. They can be up to 15 points a game from these battle tactics and be the same amount that you're getting from objectives. There you go. Exactly what I was going to say. If you choose wisely, you can just basically get free ones. Bye, Smorgen. And if you already left, you'll see this when you come back. So anyways, I hope you're having a good day. Okay. Six out of eight. Yes, have a monster thing in them. A lot. Which by the way, well, I'll get to it in a second. Okay, I'm going to go through these real fast. Here we go. Broken ranks, pick one battle line unit from your opponent's starting army. You complete this if that unit is destroyed during this turn plus one VP if you do it with a monster. Conquer. Pick one objective marker on the battlefield your opponent controls. Complete this if you control that objective marker at the end of your turn. Slay the warlord. You complete this battle tactic if the model chosen, chosen, not bonus. General is slain during this turn if they were slain by a monster plus one VP. Archeon loves many of these by the way. He's like, I'm all in for this stuff. Feed me, your general. Feed me, Smor. Feed me. Ferocious advance. When you, this one's so insane. Pick three different units from your starting army on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic if all the units you picked run in the following movement pays and finish that run within three inches of each other. If all three of those units are monsters score one additional victory point. Okay, got it. Aggressive expansion. When you reveal this battle tactic pick two objective markers on the battlefield that are not wholly within your territory. You complete this battle tactic if you control both objective markers at the end of this turn. Monsters take over. Pick one monster from your starting army and on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic if that monster is contesting, not controlling, contesting, which means you don't have to actually get it. You just have to be there. Okay. An objective marker, contesting an objective marker that you control at the end of this turn. And that objective marker is not contested by an enemy monster. My point being that the monster doesn't have to take it alone. He doesn't need to be the winning thing, right? Can have friends. He can have friends, right? Like, you just literally pick a marker in your territory with a monster standing near it and you're like, that's mine now. I get that. And you get plus one. Sorry, you don't get plus one. You complete it. I'm sorry. Okay. That one's yours, yours, yours, yours. And then savage spearhead, you complete this battle tactic if there are two or more units from your starting army wholly within your opponent's territory at the end of this turn. If two or more of those units are monsters score one additional victory point. Okay. So here's the, we talked earlier about the two points. You missed one. Did I miss one? What did I read? Bring it down. Oh, bring it down. Thank you. I read right over them. Thank you. Pick one enemy monster on the battlefield you complete this battle tactic if that unit is destroyed this turn. If the enemy monster was destroyed by an attack made by a friendly monster or the ability of a friendly monster plus one VP. Thank you very much. Appreciate you catching me there. While we're at it, we might want to mention that you'd raised this before the show. What qualifies as in destroyed by an attack? I think that was a question you'd raised. Or am I thinking about something else? Your lord of change, is that something else? Oh, that was, so the bonus VP comes if it is achieved by an attack or an ability of a friendly monster. Yeah. So I was thinking through the, well, what counts as an attack, what counts as an ability? Do spells, counters, abilities or are they attacks? Because I'd seen some chat around whether or not spells count and it's relevant for people like Zinch who are running a Lord of Change who are their main way of achieving going to be damage dealing spells. And I think where we landed was that, yes spells are abilities. And so it's all fun. Yeah. Yeah. With the core walls. Yeah. The battle tactics are really interesting. Like you go through that list you've got eight of them. Only one of them requires you to have a monster but you're heavily incentivized to take an effective hammer monster in your list. So as Vince was saying, so many of these scenarios are going to be decided by a small number of victory points. So therefore a bonus victory point from having achieved it is quite significant in terms of actually achieving the game outcome to move from two VPs to three VPs for achieving a battle tactic by doing it with a monster. And five of those eight give you benefits if they're achieved by monsters. I think it's six. Well, and then one requires your enemy to have a monster. So if they don't have a monster, you can't do bring it down if they don't have any monsters at all. So like if you're playing night hot, bring it down is just off the table, right? Yeah. The only other two sort of high level things I was going to talk about the battle tactics before we get into a bit more detail was aggressive expansion is two objectives not wholly within your territory. So I'm not sure you can achieve that in the power and numbers battle plan because there's a number of battle plans that we'll get to where the objectives are on the edge of territories. And then the other thing to note was the savage spearhead one where it's two plus units within the enemy territory. For most of these battle plans when we get to see them, the enemy territories are smaller. We've only got a few now which have to sort of standard half the board deployment territories. So quite a few scenarios are gonna have smaller territories to move into. Yes, as I was getting there Paul, don't worry. So it's important. This is where we need to bring back in. We talked about having the monsters base. This is where we need to bring back in the concept of that realm spell. Don't forget you can turn your other heroes into monsters, right? And it's they stick like that. So for example, you might look at your enemy force see that they have no monsters in their list. You think I can't use bring it down, okay? But then they use the realm spell to turn their hero into a monster and you've got an easy shot at killing that person in your turn. They're still a monster until their next hero phase, right? So they're not on the double, kill that dude. You pick bring it down, you go kill that dude. Exactly, so it's far riskier to use metamorphosis in the top of a battle round than it is in the bottom. But as you gain the benefit and then it rolls off and you don't expose yourself. And of course, battle tactics only being picked start of the hero phase rather than battle round. If you're second in the round, then you can react to an opponent that is metamorphosized and one of their heroes. Yep. The other thing I will say, so the other thing I'll say about this at high level is, I think the real key to this, to these battle tactics, I think a lot of these are very easy by the way and they're just gonna happen automatically almost. But the real key is pick the one, make sure you don't go for the lowest, easiest fruit right away. Like you need to think a couple turns ahead into what you're going to be able to achieve. So for example, let me just walk you through a scenario here real fast, okay? Savage spearhead is awesome. If you happen to have very easy ambushing or teleporting or close teleporting units where you know you're gonna be able to put a foothold into their territory unopposed, right? If you're in a scenario with a wide zone, if you've got multiple ambushers or multiple teleporters and you know you can just drop, right? You got a couple tree revs or whatever, right? And you know you can just play your little flute and just whistle over to the sides of their territory. Boom, slam dunk easy. Now you don't get the plus one for that being a monster, right? But like the point is, is that that one or whatever you happen to be doing, make sure you're thinking, what am I gonna do turn one, two and three? Yeah. At minimum at the start of the game, right? Yep, mm-hmm. And so like an easy example here is ferocious advance. Ferocious advance is a really interesting one because you can just pick three back lines support characters and say they're near each other or a support character, two support characters in a unit or two units in support character. I don't care, you get what I'm saying, right? They're backline people, an archers unit, a war machine and a hero, whatever, whatever. Lots of armies have deck chair sitters, right? And you can just go, okay, I pick ferocious advance. They all ran. They run zero inches, I move them zero inches. I complete this, done. Right, yeah. Cause they just stand still. And if you happen to have, for some reason, have three monsters that can do that, great. You know what I mean? If your son's a bad man, this one can be pretty easy depending on how you're needing to move for the scenario. Sure, yeah. Like especially if you happen to be in a build where you've got three babies. Yeah, you may, like individual babies, by the way. Right. That might be nice to try to, I mean, that could be one, if you're confident like you're gonna win a game, you might hold off on that one for later. But otherwise, I mean, like as you're in the thick of a game, you may not have opportunities to run through units because they need to move and then charge, or so like, yeah, it could be a lot easier. And they're all over the board. They're no longer with each other at the end of it. So it's sort of, you do it first turn or you're probably gonna be out of position for it. Yeah, aggressive expansion feels like potential early one, you know, like you're given. So you're given top of one and you've got the savage gains. Just pop on the spoon in the middle. Like aggressive expansion, you need to always keep your eye on that does the scenario. It is your, like I played savage gains and my opponent went, I'm picking aggressive expansion. They went out into the two middles. Cause I gave him top of one. And it was immediate, right? Because it's just the easy choice. Like that is going to be a hard one to complete later. It's a slam dunk right now and I saved the rest of my slam dunker runes for later in the game. Yeah. And you haven't lost anything, right? Because the units, often in those kinds of scenarios, the units that you're throwing on are ones that you're willing to give away anyway. Right. You were just moving the chaff. You've thrown chaff on there. You don't care because you know the other side are gonna get an easier charge or whatever. And you're just gonna be giving them up anyway. Yep. Yeah. I haven't started like trying to think through how much it's gonna be less dependent but like if you've got two alpha bunker bricks that against savage gains, you could plop on aggressive expansion. Well, maybe you could be confident that that's gonna be difficult for your opponent to get that one in the game. But of course they've still got quite a few others here which gets into your point, Vince, that we'll talk about more later about maybe we've got too many options here in terms of flex if one particular is too difficult. But yeah, I'm just thinking like there could be, you know, trying to think about some trade-offs. Normally, yeah, we would just run up some chaff, whatever, but then it's gonna be easy for opponent to immediately get aggressive expansion and return at the bottom of one, let's say. So is that ideal? Is it worth thinking about that? Yeah. Yeah. I wanna answer Paul real quick here. Paul, the reason they wrote that in there was because of the vibrating space marines that they had in 40K, the remaining stationary rule. They moved. I look at the three units ago, they moved 0.1 inches. There, I did it. They ran like, again, your opponent's not gonna be like, okay, but you didn't declare their remaining stationary, right? Like they had to rules out remaining stationary to prevent the vibrating marine situation. That's the only reason that's there. So, I mean, you don't need to move any distance to achieve it is the real point, any distance of measure, right? Yep. Okay. You do then just count as moving, of course. Yeah, I mean, to me, I think that this one's interesting because yes, there are bonuses for monsters, but I actually think that some of these are quite hard to achieve with monsters. Okay. Like what I mean by that is broken ranks, depending on the monster you have, probably on the easier side. Like if you've got a wounded battle line unit, that's a later, that's a mid to late game one, right? Yeah. If you've got a wounded battle line unit, you're gonna go pick them up. If you've got a good monster, especially a good monster hero, you're gonna run in there, you're gonna, maybe if you need to, you find a stower, maybe you roar at them, whatever you pick them up. Yep. Yep. Okay. I've been doing that a lot, yeah, round three, round four. That's a round three, round four tactic, easy. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Conquer is your round three, round four one, right? And the trading that's gonna happen. And there will be lots of trading in the middle of this game. We'll talk about that when we get to tempo, right? Mm-hmm. Slay the warlord, like is honestly one you're gonna skip a lot of the time. It can be very hard to achieve, depending on who your enemy general is, right? Like again, if they have some big immortal general that they've chosen, it can be hard, but keep your eye on it, right? A lot of times you might have Marathi in there, but she's not the chosen general. She's the bonus general. The chosen general is some on foot Medusa, right? That if you could go in and whack, like if you know you've got a clean, clear shot at her, then you go take it, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's coming to play with Sylvanathalus, you know, like Warsong Revenant versus Treloar D'Ancien. Treloar D'Ancien needs to be upfield. Warsong Revenant with a spell portal is hanging out in the backfield. So it's probably gonna be the general. And just, yeah, try to deny some points. If you wanna come out for the Warsong Revenant, usually feel free to, I want you to, because that's probably getting you out of position for a sequel, but yeah. I actually watched a game with a Sylvanath player against Luminath, and the Sylvanath player had to move the Warsong dude out to take an objective, and that put him in range of the cowl mountain, who then walked over and wham him for 20 damage, and he exploded, he exploded. But it was still a good play, because ultimately it gave him the point. Like he still, like in the great trade, it actually won him the game, right? Good trading. Right, so like, yes, he lost the Warsong, but it didn't end up mattering, right? So, okay. Anyways, Ferocious Advance is the hardest one, I think, to score with your monster bonus is what I mean, right? It's so easy to do, but it's hard to get the bonus VP for, because you gotta have all three of those units being monsters. Sure, yeah. And a lot of armies won't have three monsters in them. Yeah. And if you are the Beastclaw or the Gristlegore build, then do you want to have three guys that close to each other? Yes. Do you want to be keeping them close together? I once played a game against someone who was running sort of Vordrai, Manfred, and a normal terror guy around the battle in a group together, because they were buffing each other. But outside of that sort of scenario, then do you want your main hammer pieces all stacked together, turn one, or not? Maybe. It actually did come up in Hewo's first battle report. That's exactly what he did. Yeah, he took that one round one, but... It's useful for things like Star Strike, or whatever the new Star Strike is, main thing. Yeah, they were playing Star Strike. Well, you're not doing anything to turn on anyway, so you're just gonna do that and then move. You're just sitting on your hands in the first turn. Yeah, exactly. Veins of Gurr, I guess is what it's called. Bring it down is one of those ones that's gonna be super sensitive to what your enemy's playing, where their monster's positioned, how good is your monster? Oh my God, that can actually be a really hard one to achieve. If their only monster happens to be Archeon and your only monster is a cockatrice, I hope you roll really well, right? So the point is that a lot of these are very easy to achieve. You can usually get yourself into turn four, turn five, pretty straightforwardly. The key is you've gotta be stacky. That's if you stack them in the right order. Now I will say, in my slaves darkness list, I'm always including a kitty cat now. It's Lama Cat time every day, all day, because that is a 95 point monster. And I was running around like, I was like, monsters take over, boom. There he is, he's catesting. Hook it up kitty cat, just out there, living his best life, you know? I did mourn the loss of the monster keyword on the Aideneth sharks. Uh-huh, yeah, sharks are the water monsters. Well deserved. Mourn that loss. So what are we thinking of the hardest this list? We talked about slave or lord, that can be quite difficult depending on the matchup. I could see the point, similar notion, bring it down potentially, matchup and it can be quite tough. What else? I think those are the two. Those are the two. Because they're highly dependent on killing a specific, often very tough, rarefied thing in the enemy force. Yeah, I was interested in who do, who do we think are the winner, given the focus on monsters for the bonuses and for achieving some of these, who do we think are the winners and losers in terms of- Sons of behemoth! Apart from the obvious sons. Oh, okay, got it. Because I mean stonks. Taken as wet. To the moon. I want to just real quick, I want to get back to your winners and losers questions. I just want to make one really meaningful point, which is yes, you can earn about the same number of bonus points out of the battle tactics that you can give up by having monsters die, but that is a very smooth brain take because one monster can complete, can earn you all five of these. Yes. Okay? Round after round, they can just sit there and pay dividends and just keep earning bonus VPs by selecting different tactics. If they die, they can only give the opponent one, period. So like one good durable hero monster is worth their weight in gold and very low risk. I would never play a scaven list without a vermin board. Never. Every list is going to have it, like every list. The list archetype now is going to be to the extent that you can get one, you put in a 14 wound hero monster with a full up save of five up wards, preferably with access to fly. Then you add in the rest of your army. Looking for that three up save, but no, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yes, that's not it. I saw Tristan Gray said so Rob has a smooth brain. No, that's not a shot at Rob. I did listen to his show. He mentioned that with more nuance as well. So he didn't have the simple take either. But he mentioned there's risk and there is risk. You're going to give up points. But like sons are so, our Tories Rexette, our sons have been excellent and competitive now where do all these changes make them workable? Oh, they're competitive wise. They went through the roof. If somebody, if this, if when this book had released somebody had told me, hey, look, I know you're upset but nine months from now it's going to feel like a totally different army and it's going to play how you want it to play. I'd be like, great, I'll just wait. I'll shut up. So yeah. I mean, I wonder if the play testers are laughing at us with their more experience and the GHB 21 with regard to we're hitting on the seemingly obvious but I do have a hard time getting away from the obvious. And it's certainly reflected in my list writing so far. I mean, I didn't go to two cabbages simply because it looked amazingly fun and it's smaller models for commission, yada, yada, yada. But like I really think that's a very strong iron just list right now at least. And then Sylvaneth, my first list was a grab bag, the second iteration, tree lords are turned on now, in my opinion, you know, a power pair of like three swords, tree lord, arch ref, crown of fell bowers, real wounds, maybe a branch witch and all route. That's like a little group. And you've got Dyrthu and a true Lord ancients. I've got three monsters and, you know, still great means of war song revenant doing it spell portal jazz. So kind of three centers of gravity in that list, still really good ability, all is equal to summon dryads to get bodies throughout the game, help me there. I've got two tree revs. It feels like a really nice list. And I don't like the idea of moving away from three monsters. So anyway, yeah, in terms of winners, like Warclans, Mothrides. Double crush of Warclans. Mothrides big time, especially BCR monster truck build. Suns, I think you mentioned Sylvaneth. I do think they're a winner in this. Though Sylvaneth still have a lot of work to do to be like highly competitive, but I do think they're like, they got a bump. They have interesting options at least. They're probably most improved. Right. Whether or not they get high enough. Yeah. They got a lot of building to scale here, but they came up a few floors, right? They're not in down in like the sub basement anymore. They can at least see daylight now. They're not up on the, living that top floor lifestyle, but they're out of the basement. Yeah, they're out of the basement. You know. I think Soul of Light is interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I was gonna say Soul of Light a hundred percent. Like Vorderai, your like Manfred is incredible in so many of these. For his like, I don't get killed unless I decide I wanna be killed ability basically. Yeah. Velazda, all these things are fantastic. The, what's her name? The Luke of Eye and the Avangorean Lord. All good. Yes. A hundred percent. I think a lot of, like it's interesting because I look at something like BOC. And you say, well, they've got a bunch of monsters. That must be good, right? They're the wrong kind of monsters. They're the wrong kind of monsters, exactly. When I look at their monsters, I think, no, no, that's the army that's gonna give up five victory points or four victory points or whatever. Because your monsters are very, for the most part, ineffectual things that don't do enough damage and are on four and five up saves. Like I'm just going to kill them whenever I want to. Like I'll get, bring it down whenever I decide I want to bring it down by just killing one of your monsters. Yeah. Right. Archeon, we mentioned him already but should be mentioned Scaven because of Thankwell and who's a monster and all the vermin lords but especially the Deceiver, the Corruptor and the Warp Seer or whatever who is, who is toyed with a four up re-rollable five up after save. That is my dog right there. Yeah. Can't see some more Star Drakes and Drakesaw and Templow and Stonks. If they get the good rewrite, Stonks, hard die a hardcore. I actually want to, I hope Star Drakes are still kind of like okay but then the Torlong guy becomes amazing because he's also a monster and I just want to, I just want an excuse to buy a Torlong. I really like that model. Yeah. So. Then. Make that stupid thing work. Right. Looking at this, are you attracted to the idea of going to a two day, five round with two turtles? No, because I want to take my silver net to fly around with two turtles. And I also don't own two turtles so that would be a problem for me. That's a good list though. Starting point for an IDK now. Turtles are so expensive. That's the challenge because they went up. No, I don't know. Yeah. I don't think you're one turtle. Yes, two turtles. No, but we've already seen at the back end of AOS2 that the sort of soul turtle build has been getting much more play for IDK. But you sort of identify one of the factions which has got limited choices in terms of dealing with monsters, right? So IDK is one of them. The fire slayers have just got magma droths and the different versions of it. Gloomspite, which you take. Manglers, spiders. Not going to do you well. Nighthorns, I had to try and really work out what the monster was you're taking. Nighthorn, OBR, got the harvester, Nagash and Arkane. I think Luminath is an interesting one. I've seen too many. Mr. Stonar Kingboy is like the named hero monsters. That is to say, Allerith the Stonar King or whatever his name is. I've seen a lot of interesting things. I think it could be quite a fundamental change for Luminath, right? So you've got lists which are built around Oralon Legion or Teclas builds. And the thing is like, do you want to be doing, trying to achieve many of these battle tactics with Teclas? I suppose you can if you're going to be sniping with spells and things like that. Spells maybe, but yeah. But he's not as massive. He's pretty chip damaged. He's not. And with the healing that we have access to now, yeah, I don't know if that's going to happen. You're going to bring him down. Yeah. So instead you're going to go, want to go Stoneheart King or Avalon Orans. And so you're then going to go, well, okay, well, how do I maximize that? I have a stone mage. And then there's a whole range of decisions that flow from that. And then all of a sudden you're just playing Yometrica and you're immune to REN2 in the last sentence. I mean, a lot of these battle plans, yeah. I mean, Marty was raising this. Marty Orlando is a good painter, Lumineth guy, whatever his official title is nowadays. Yeah, Marty was talking about this today. And yeah, I've seen too many Lumineth Armies ran over the last couple of weeks that are running the traditional Vinari builds, you know, on the double in particular. And so I do wonder, yeah, if we might be seeing more. I mean, a lot of these battle plans, you know, it's three objectives in the middle or it's four objectives. You need to be able to shift your ponodolph and then holds and or holds. And yeah, Yometrica might be with those monsters. We might see more of that. Yeah, a couple of other shout outs here. AOS coach said Battle Mage on Griffon, Medicare confirmed, no, denied. Denied that motion. But I'm officially gonna rule here. We do have council present. So as the sitting judge, that motion is denied. And however, cities are far from in trouble because their two feni got cheaper and the Frost Art Phoenix or the Fire Phoenix are superb choices at their current points cost in this meta. Yeah, definitely good choices. Yeah. There's a few other sort of sneaky options in there. James Page being a fan of the Source of the Lord on Manticore. Yeah, I like him too. Yeah, I think the Source of the Lord on Manticore is underrated. You have to use him a little more carefully. He is a little fragile, but that dude, he comes with a great spell. He's solid. I rate him. I rate him. All right. That's about the last one, Bellicor. And I don't know, Steve, if you missed it, I was talking earlier about Legion of the First Prince. They can run the Monster Mash as well as anybody. Berman Lords. Well, they do often have a lot of sort of deck chair sitting monsters that can sit around and easily complete something like ferocious advance, where all three of their monsters do just hang out together or something for a round. Yeah, exactly. That wouldn't be that weird. That's what he did last, yeah, that's what my friend Shrad did last night, yeah. Yep. Okay, so here's my summary. Let me see what you guys think about this and then we'll move into the individual scenarios. The larger number of grand strategies and battle tactics in the GHB versus the core rules means it's more likely people will always have items they can accomplish. Monsters represent some risk but the potential for a lot of reward have played properly. As I said, a single monster can earn multiple VP in battle tactics, but can only give one back when killed. Monster heroes are, of course, the more powerful option, but cheap, ultra-cheap mobile monsters. Cockatrice, Lama Cat, right? By the way, I just call it, that's the mind-sealer sphere ranks for people who don't know our weird little vernacular here if you're watching this for the first time. First of all, welcome, thank you. I'm so glad to have you here. That's awesome. Hit like and subscribe. Hit like and subscribe, that goes for the rest of you too. Yeah, absolutely. Hit that, smash that like button. Smash the like button for Lama Cat. And I think things like that are actually really powerful choices because they can just sit around. They're not, like the Cockatrice has a shooting attack. The Lama Cat is just putting out this giant bubble of neg2 bravery and then sometimes making people go last, which is fine. Like he does what he needs to do for 95 points. Just existing as a monster. And like if somebody's gonna really try to chase down my Lama Cat and kill it to get a bonus victory point, the number of things that they just ignored that are actual potent threats, like fine. Yeah, how much, how many points are Hydra's and Corriptus' and things? Still too much, like 165 and 170, I think, off the top of my head. Okay, so they're not sort of cheap enough to just stick on the outside of a... Yeah, when I can get two Lama Cats, almost for your Hydra, you know? It's like that's the play here. Like those monsters are so cheap, right? Corriptus' 165, War Hydra, where is that one? I don't see that one. Don't even know where to find it on the list. Yeah, there in cities as you mark. Yeah, War Hydra 170. Too much. Nailed it, got him. Yep. Got him. All right, gentlemen, anything else in the summary? Anything we didn't mention here, you wanna close this out before we get into the individual scenarios? I mean, did you want to get into the little notion about potentially we need to have fewer of these right now? I mean, my basic argument is I think there are too many of them and they're too easy. We touched on it a lot. If you go to only, like the base three out of the GHB for grand strategies would, is a much tougher choice, it would mean everybody's picking the battle line one. That's what it would mean. And everybody now has to have deck chair sitters in their army. Cause no one's picking Vendetta base and no one's picking the kill all the enemy heroes base. So it's effectively only one in the base book. So that's kind of weak. The battle tactics, I really think the six in the base book are stronger because they're not tilted towards this crazy monster game. And now that sucks because then you, if you like it would tilt it way against monsters and then your monsters should only give up VPs but assuming then if you're not using these you're not using any other girl rules and you're just stepping away from the girl rules completely. You're not using any rules. And it resets the game much back more to a neutral footing. I think it would play a lot differently. I think you would have people much more likely to only get three or four as opposed to all five. So let's see, maybe real quickly battle tactics core roles, so aggressive expansion that's the same break their spirit, pick one enemy you and holy thin your opponent's territory completes tactic that unit destroyed. Similar, little different broken ranks, pick one unit from your opponent starting on the battlefield, the complete stack of the unit is destroyed. Okay, so conquer similar repel. Exactly the same, yep. Yeah, repel pick one enemy in a holy or partially thin your territory, please tactic that unit is destroyed. Little different, seize the center. Okay, so a lot of these are kill and enemy units. Yes. Okay, and then we got slay the warlord. Yeah, which we said it could be difficult. I mean, maybe, I'm curious if you guys were to pick, so let's say five, no, not five, six for a five round event. What six are we picking? Oh, you're saying what two do you fire off the list if you wanted to? Yeah, and if we're pulling from the, I mean, we don't have to do this right now, but I'm really curious for tournaments. You know, if like, yes. I think tournaments for now would just use all basic eight. If I was gonna fire two off the roof, if that's what you're asking. Yeah. I don't know. Probably like, monsters take over in ferocious advance, I suspect, or something like that. I'd have to think about it. Okay. I mean, but I wouldn't mess with it, honestly. I would just leave it as these eight. The right answer is right now, we stick to the basics. Sure. I think people would just use this. Now, if somebody wanted to run the stuff out of the baseball, can say we're not using the Rome rules because we're gonna start out simple. I'd be like, okay. Right. Cool thing. Yeah. Cool. I think you wanna play the GHP Battle Pack, get through some events. Let's all reassess it in October. Yeah. And see what the world looks like once we've got events under the belt. Yep. Yeah. Agreed. All right. So scenarios. I need a timestamp. Hold on. Battle plans. Yeah, I know they're both battle plans, but I like scenarios. So because saying scenario is way cooler than battle plan. All right. Some of these might require a little more commentary than others. So we'll move through these kind of quickly. There's 12 of them and I don't wanna be here until tomorrow. All right. So go ahead. I was just gonna say, we're gonna deal with them in a general level first and then go into- Yes, I'm gonna use first blood here. I picked this one intentionally as the first one because it represents a lot of standard things we're gonna run into that I can then set up in general terms and then we don't have to talk about that crap again. Okay. So the first one's gonna take a little longer. Okay. Important thing to realize, the board does not have measurements on it because it doesn't need measurements. It now has a grid pattern. That grid is 11 inches by 15 inches. 15 inches. Yep. Okay. So each one of those squares is 11 by 15 because the board is 44 by 60. All right, we're all with me here. Okay. So you're gonna see a lot of different, many of these have much closer. It ends up being deployment zones like where you can get pretty close to your enemy. There's a lot of nine inches in here or a lot of things like that in this triple setup here in this like, which occurs in a couple of them, the two Tetris pieces missing, right? L-shaped corners. Yes, the L-shaped corners. In this one, you know, you end up, what is that like 13 inches apart on the hypotenuse basically, something like that? 18.6. Is that what it is? Okay, thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah, 11 squared plus, yeah. A squared plus B squared plus C squared, thank you. It's the only 18.6 inches apart scenario in the book. There you go. So that's kind of how those set up. But again, as you mentioned, some of these do have smaller territories and this is one of those ones you were talking about, Dan, right? Like if part of your choice is to get into the other opponent's territory, that can be kind of hard because they don't have enough space. They're pretty crammed in there, right? It's gonna be easy for them to just hedge out all of their space. The other thing I'll say- You can screen out a nine inch bubble quite well in an L-shaped little corner area. Absolutely, yeah. The other thing I'll say is the way this tends to go is, the way that all of this is says in the scenario is you decide who's attacker and who's defender. The defender sets up the terrain and then the attacker chooses side. I'm just gonna go ahead and assume we're ignoring all of that for tournaments. And we will just roll as normal for who picks side because obviously we're not gonna have people at tournaments resetting tournament tables that were set up by the TOs. Well, the thing I was pointing out to you, Vince, is that right now, if you win the roll off to pick sides, you also are dropping first. So you're breaking the tie if you guys have the same number of drops. You're double dipping on the benefit. Sure. Sure. I don't know, that seems weird to me. I don't know, Dan, if you have any thoughts on that. It's what it is. Yeah, I mean, it's like, okay. I don't think there will be that many one-drop people running around, but I think there will be a fair number of four-drop people so there'll be a lot of tie-breaking four-drops. So you're effectively just rolling off before you roll to see who wins, right? Like you knew you were both four-drop. All you're doing is just going, okay, I get to go first. All right, get priority. I should say not go first. I should say priority, sorry. Yeah, I'm just thinking if we're using scenery effects and we've got Arcana on one side, but on another side, you know, like there's gonna be differential value and it seems a little strange to me yet that all the value is potentially on one side. Relatives, yeah, but whatever. Yep. All right, so this one uses the standard scoring method and this is important to understand because we're gonna come back to this a bunch of times from then on. I'm not gonna talk about it from now on other than this time. So standard scoring method works like this. One victory point if you control at least one objective. One victory point if you control two or more objectives. One victory point if you control more objectives than your opponent. Okay, so let's put that onto first blood. There are three objectives. None of them happen to be prime objectives. We'll talk about that when we introduce that in a moment. So if I control two out of the three objectives, I get three victory points because I have at least one, I have at least two and I have more than my opponent by necessity because I control two out of the three. It would not be possible for them to have an equal or greater number. Okay, and then you get two victory points for the battle tactic. This is just the super standard scoring. The first blood is actually like straight up. I love this scenario. I think it's fantastic. To me, this is a slam dunk tournament included. Let me just say that. Tight deployment zone, easy to map out. I'm gonna go buy some wooden measuring sticks or something like wooden rulers off of Amazon or eBay, super cheap. And I'm just gonna cut them to 11 and 15 inches so I can just trace out territories. Just bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop. Simple and easy. And the only special thing in this one is at the start of each battle round, after players have received the start of their round command points, the player taking the second turn gets to pick a special objective. If you control that special objective, then you receive one extra command point when you start your turn. So basically you're encouraging, you're encouraged, you pick it, assumingly you control it and you're encouraging your opponent to come kill you off of it. And then you try to take it back and no one actually gets it. Cause they try to kill you off it and then they fail to hold it and then you kill them off it and then you fail to hold it and nobody gets the bonus command point. Sorry. When does this trigger? When do you potentially get the benefits? At the start of each battle round after you have received your start of round command points, that is when it triggers. The player taking the second turn picks one objective on the battlefield to be the vantage point. When the player receives their start of round command points, the thing that we already said this happens after. Okay. So you receive it in the following turn. Correct. So you nominate after you've generated CP. So you then nominate, you then try to get it and if you've succeeded, then the next round you get it. Right. Is it the next turn or the next round? It would be the next. The next round because it's your start of round. Yeah. Okay, next round. Okay. We had this debate last night cause if we play first blood and that's what we concluded it. Yeah, next round. Okay. Start of round. Yep. Yeah. This one is actually just like straight simple. It's a great scenario. I freaking love it. I think it's a standard tournament. This is a winner. This is a winner, winner chicken dinner. It's a tournament thumbs up for me. I think it's a good, I think it's an include. What do you guys think? Yeah. Yeah, agreed. So the other thing to just round out in terms of the sort of setting the baseline of what is the standard win conditions for battle plans in this GHB is that you get a major win if you've got the most number of VP's. If you are tied on VP's then we go to see who gets a minor. You get a minor if you've completed more battle tactics than your opponent. If you are tied on battle tactics you can still get a minor if you've completed your grand strategy and your opponent has not. If you are tied on battle tactics and tied on grand strategies then it's a draw. So we will have potentially more draws. I am absolutely predicting a five to 10% increase in the number of draws across the board. Which would be a huge jump by the by. Like that's a massive thing I just said. It will massively shake up events massively. Having more draws in the mix and even having more minors. But it's not like if you've got more battle tactics you still get a major. It's you're only going to get a minor. Right, yep. Yeah, big fan of the scenario. Like we said we played last night, yeah close one. And yeah it was very relevant. The seismic shift in terms of who had the opportunity to burn which objective. It's a can it's not a must. And yeah that kept me in the game. Yeah on these like three objective scenarios you didn't got to keep in mind. Holy crap at the top of three one of these three can go away. And this suddenly becomes twight. Right, like that is going to be much weirder. Because one of those three going away then you're going to increase the chances that you hold one each. So therefore you've both denied the opportunity of getting a VP of controlling more than your opponent. The sort of balance between VP's from objectives versus VP's from battle tactics has shifted. And so if you've got some sort of good late game battle tactics available then lifting an objective off the board will skew the overall game result in your favor. Yeah the other thing I'll say and this is where one of the points I kind of touched on earlier. My experience in the game so far has been this game is much more back and forth tempo between less larger units, right? Like between because your reinforcements are capped four a lot of units that were 40 came down to 30, right? Maximum and then you don't tend to have as many 30s anyways. Like my experience thus far in the four games I've played has been a lot of like this back and forth where like I have more than them in my turn and score three. They take one back away from me and they score three. I push on them, they push on me. And we end up trading in different places back and forth, right? And that's some of those grants, yeah. A lot of small units getting wiped and then trading, trading, trading, making smart trades really being a key to victory, right? Yeah, yeah and playing on a smaller footprint in terms of the smaller average number of objectives. So you're, I mean, this kind of goes without saying this might seem like a silly statement but you really need to have a list all as equal that can burn people off of objectives, you know, like running a tree army that's dancing around and you're not getting people off of objectives, you're gonna lose the game. Like, we've got a- And at the same time, what I'll say is it's interesting because not only is it a smaller number of objectives average, which is true, it's also a smaller number you need to care about. Yeah. Right? Yes. Because it's not victory points like there's just diminishing margin and utility. For example, in first blood, there's basic no reason for you to ever try to grab the third objective. Unless there's insurance because you're gonna trade away one of the objectives the next round. Yep. So that's the only reason you'd want to control three is because I'm gonna take this one and I know I'm gonna lose it next turn so I'll grab one on the other side of the board. Right. But otherwise, you just push for two and you uncorn your two. Right. Like, once you've hit the cap, right, once you've reached three, stop in most cases. Now there's some exceptions. Things we'll talk about. But for the most part, it's like you don't, you're not trying to spread to cover the battlefield. Right. In a lot of the old admissions, GHB 2020, you really had incentive to go out and try to grab like everything you could. And so the question was, how far can you spread your army without snapping your tactical effectiveness? Sure. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I know in first blood, like I said, if I had not been able to burn, so he was castled hard on the middle. I had control of my right. He had a mask and 10 minutes on my far left. And he had just wiped out the five tree revs that had snagged out to get the battle tactic at the top of the round, whatever that was, to take two objectives. Okay. So if I hadn't been able to burn that far left to then orient the battle middle to right, which is where I was, I could have been screwed because Cairo's was going to continue to shut down the woods. Anyways, like some armies just may not have the ability to sufficiently redeploy. And yeah, if you're not winning that role to go second in that third battle round in terms of what gets burned. Yeah. The ability to remove an objective and force the opponent to just suddenly have to shift their entire weight is massive. Absolutely massive. Especially if you've got decent chaft lines and all sorts of stuff in between. Thanks, Chee. Unless we had anything else to say on first blood, now that we've got that sort of baseline, I was just going to say sort of three generic things before we then look into the rest of the battle plans. So Vince has outlined the basic scoring, which applies for what we call the sort of standard basic scoring for these battle plans. Six of the 12 battle plans in this GHB have that maximum of three VPs a turn from objectives. Vince has covered off that we're dealing with shorter minimum distances. So we've got five battle plans, which are 18 inches apart, one at 18.6, five at 22, and one at 24, which is Vice, which is an interesting one in terms of how the armies live together. Love it. Yeah. We've said that there's a lower number of fewer objectives in each scenario. So we're dealing with five battle plans with only three objectives. We've got four with four objectives, one with five objectives, and two with six. So we have no, so we have no eight objective battle plans anymore. Well, they realized they couldn't print scenarios that gave you more objectives than they were giving you the little coins that came in the menu. Yes. Yeah. We are kept at six. And of those we've got, as I said, sort of four battle plans with prime objectives. So those are just sort of the generic, what does the set of battle plans look like in terms of shared characteristics? I love it. I love it. Dan, that's fantastic data you're delivering it. I was going to go through and do all that, and I was like, Matt, Dan, I'll probably do it. Okay. So now we can move through relatively quickly. Are we all saying thumbs up? This is a potential good one for tournaments. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I agree. All right. Veins of Gerr. I have an asterisk. I do think it's similar in footprint to another one that we'll get into. Sure. That's fine. In terms, but yeah, yeah. I feel like it's one of the two probably with the pack, but yeah. Yep. Okay. Veins of Gerr. Your traditional horizontal deployment, 22 inches apart. We call this updated star strike because it is very much updated star strike because it's just star strike. But instead of them coming down from the heavens, up came a bubble and crude. There is a pretty high chance that things end up in one of the two outside spaces. I cut off the numbers in my little screenshot here, but trust me, that's the math. Cause it's like one, five, seven in the center and eight to 12 on the side. Yes. Exactly. So like realistically, you only actually have a 16.6 repeating percent chance that it ends up in the center space. So it's going to, it's very likely to tip toward the sides when it drops. And it's just like star strike one in this, on the middle line drops at the start of two. And then two on your original deployments drop at the start of three. Now this does have a different scoring mechanic. And there's, this also lets us introduce prime objectives. All of the objectives in this one are prime objectives, meaning they cannot be destroyed. So you cannot remove these with the seismic shift rule from Gerr. And the victory points in this one is way different. Which is you score a number of victory points equal to the number of the current battle round for each objective you control. So this one does encourage you to still spread, to spread big. It absolutely favors the late game and summoning armies and people who can just suddenly show up with power projection late in the game. It is very anti-alpha. Cause like an alpha strike doesn't really earn you much if people can endure it or chaff you out of it. And it diminishes the value of battle tactics in a big way. Because round one, all you can get is battle tactics. But like in round four, every objective is worth four points. You're pulling 12 points out of the objective. Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. 12 and 15 in the last two rounds. So it's going to massively skew that way. Yes. That's basically how this one goes. Here's my take on this one. I don't like this for tournaments. Okay. And I'll tell you why I think that. I think it's a cool enough scenario. I think it's very easy to lose this scenario completely accidentally. Because they're now skewed to the outside edges, which are 20, sorry, which are 30 inches apart. Yeah. Right. It becomes, and then that's not even measuring on the iPod news. Right. I'm just saying like two lines are 30 inches apart. It can become very easy to just like oops, all berries, this scenario. Right. And you know, you can try to set yourself up for success as best you can. Yeah. But like oops, it just didn't roll in my favor. And there's just no way I can get there. And the opponent gets one free round or two free rounds of scoring it at three points and four points. And it's like, okay, well, you're just way ahead now. Yeah, they're around three, round four swing is going to be massive. With no ability to remove it or really counter play against it. So I agree. It's, it comes down to a dice roll. Yeah. Much so on that. Yeah. I've been on, but I played a lot of this on TTS last year. And yeah, I've been on both ends of it. Yeah. Where they aligned in my favor and they went against me. And it didn't feel like it, it often felt like it, it didn't reflect the, the game we're supposed to be playing, you know, like the general ship and quality of the army is, and so on and so forth. Yeah. Like it really skewed an advantage. And I mean, that's not always, I started out really loving star strike as a kind of an interesting like grudge match round one for tournaments. And yeah, I've kind of grown less fond of it. And this one's better. I think. Then the prior version, but yeah, I'm not sure either. Is there value in just sort of thinking off the top of my head. Is there value in the scenario in that it requires you to build a list with multiple centers of power projection. I think you could deploy on both sides of the board. So you can't just, yeah, edge your bets all to one side and have a sort of death star bunker build. You've got to have an army that can play across the width of the board. Yeah, dude, that was one of the reasons I always loved it. Yeah. I mean, like Tom, but you guys always talk about, yeah, you know, good less often have three centers of gravity. And yeah, I don't, I don't know if most, I would think most armies can do that. I mean, even fire slayers can deep strike with the, the little room smiders to do, but yeah. I mean, yeah, that's why I liked it always, but I don't, I don't know. I've grown this one. Yes. Of course. And I think it's always good to build this like that, but something very critical changed between star strike and veins of girl. And why I think it really matters here. And that is because in star strike, it was one, two, six. Yeah. Right. See an equal chance of it being kind of spread out in this. It is highly likely it's going to end up on one of the two sides. Yeah. Like 83.3 repeating percent chance. It ends up on one of the two sides. Okay. And it's very hard to you, your army out when you're, when your opponent is also going to be incentivized to do the same thing. Right. And just like there's no way you can be like, unless you just have a very strange force, it's very hard for you to push like this. Right. Which is how you almost have to push. So that's why I'm saying because there's such a distance here and it's so incentivized to fall on these two sides, it would be like if the old one, if the old star strike, you know, just had just almost never landed in the center. Right. Because it's just, this is when they hit like this, this is such a distance. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, that's fair. It's, I'm just going through the list and kind of thinking about what kind of armies. Yeah. Might struggle with this. Might do well with it. Yeah. I think there's a lot of other better scenarios. I mean, if you have like ultra high, like probably a great scenario for so much. So I'm sad to say that I don't want to say because like favors the late game and high speed. Okay. I guess that's the one things we got going for us. Nice, but there you go. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really curious to get some games in with this. I do worry that's going to feel similar to how star strike fell over last year when I, when I played a lot of games. And it was up in those games. Yeah. When like it would be a, you'd have the string, like they all ended up on one side and you know, there's certainly some potential for that or to end up on the far right. One, it's on the far left. Maybe you, even then, I don't know. I feel like I don't have a strong opinion on this one. I need to really see it. Yep. Kind of get a feel for it. That's fair. Yeah. I just, I got to step away for two minutes and I will be back. Step away. Okay. And that'll let, that'll lead us to savage gains. Chuck Morrison. I love it. Chuck more special, bro. Do you even lift? Okay. So this is updated battle for the past or whatever. There's a bunch of different focal points or there's a bunch of different scenarios like this. Border, border war. Sorry. Border war. Yeah. Thank you. This is, it's the one, one middle thing. There's been multiple iterations of this type of scenario. Yeah. This is just the newest version of this. The important part is you have two, two objectives that you'll basically start out controlling. And just like always, the one on the edge of your territory is worth one point to you. The one on the edge of your opponent's territory is worth four points. If you control either of the ones in the middle, you get two points. Not two points for each. Very different. Score two victory points. If you control an objective that is not on the border of either player's territory. Oh, I missed that. Okay. Uh-huh. It's a big difference. Yeah. Wow. I think a lot of people will default to reading it and playing it like Old Battle for the Past or Border War or whatever, where if I grab both middle ones, I get four points. Four points. You do not. You get two. Okay. Yeah, that's huge. I've already seen somebody describe this thing wrong in a video. So it's a big deal. Yeah. Now, like, so again, again, the scoring here means that if you never take control of your opponents, then you're both going to sit there and score three a turn. And it's going to point wise, stroll out exactly the same as the standard scoring method, right? Because you're going to go like boom, boom, they're going to go boom, boom. And we just sit there and then five rounds goes by. Right. Okay. Now in practice, if you grab your opponents for one turn and they don't, they don't get your touch, yours at all, you are in the money. Like you just basically want to win the scenario. That's it. Mm-hmm. Right. Because that four points is such a big swing. Sure. That's always been that way with the scenario, but even more so now. It's more so now because you can't get two to two for holding the center. Yeah. Right. Because it used to be you would kind of balance that out and I control both the centers, but then I kind of get it, you know, and it would be like both the centers are worth your enemy, yada, yada, and so on and so forth, not the case anymore. Right. So your actual maximum you can get is seven, but the sort of modal outcome is three. Right. If you control one plus two plus therefore you get seven. Mm-hmm. What are we on? Savage gains. Savage gains. Cool. That's right. And yes, what I was mentioning was you don't get two victory points for controlling each one of them. It's not two and two, it's two for either. Like if you hold both, you get two points. If you hold one, you get two points. Oh, really? So it's not nine available for that around it. Correct. Seven, Max. Score two victory points if you control an objective that is not on the border of either player's territories. There you go. Reading comprehension 101. Yep. So, and it should be stated that the two center ones are prime objectives, which means you can't destroy them, but if you're a buff giant, ooh, you can still get those, with those savage gains, and you start out controlling yours, you can just be like, boot, I kick it backward. It's not on the border of my territory anymore. It's not worth four to you. It's just worth two. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I'd be instantly kicking it out, right? Here's the trick. Then if you do that, you turn one into two as well, right? No. No, no. Here's the problem. If you kick yours off your line right away, then you remove your ability to score one, and you set your per turn cap at two. Because now you pushed it into the score two victory points if you control an objective that is not on the border of either player's territory, meaning if you boot yours backwards to a safety play, yes, you remove their ability to get four, but you shut off your ability to get three. Because you don't have anything worth one point anymore, and it doesn't matter if you control one, two, or three of the non-borderline objectives, you just get two points. So safety kick it late game in turn two or whatever when anyone's close to you. Correct. And you just take, like, this is a great one for a take or try type of thing, because you're going to leave one back to kick, and you're going to push in hard with any other mega worth 30 onto theirs, and just try to snake it for a turn. And once you get there four pointer for one turn in like two or three, you just safety kick yours backwards, and then they can never get the four to catch you. Yeah. Yeah. So when I first read this, I had solved the prime objectives on each battle plan and just thought that would meant categorically all of the objectives cannot be removed. And clearly that's not the case. No, it is the little special things, the little special symbols. Yeah. So that was interesting. Yeah. So a lot of fine prints here. Yeah. Is there any other mechanics to move objectives other than the sun's kick? I do not know of anything else in the game right now. I think so. That is a very unique piece in its capabilities. Yeah. I mean, my answer is I like Savage Gains a lot. I think it's a really interesting one. I have played this one. Somebody said if you kick the middle one onto their line profit. Yes, that is correct. If you kick, if you kick a middle one. That is so precise. Boot. Just getting it right on. Just Kobe and you're in like then it's four. That's right. Yes. Some Australian is going to try that. Of course. Somebody's going to get it. It's going to be amazing. But yeah. So I like Savage Gains. I think this one's really fun. It favors, like I said here in my summary, it favors armies that can split forces. It's great for Sons of the Hemat. And it does. It does. It can yield higher scoring. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's the quintessential AOS battle plan. Yeah. Throughout the game's history. And it's interesting because like I said, the modal outcome leaves you with the same victory point to battle tactic. Yeah. Spread because you, because the center two aren't each worth two. You often end up just going three and three every round. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm making its way into a lot of packs. Yeah. Plus who doesn't want to say Savage Gains? Come on. Get them Savage Gains, bro. All right. Okay. Nope. Shift your main. There we go. Now for my least favorite. Tooth. And. Nail. I can tell you straight out. I hate this scenario. Scenario. I hate it. I saw Rob praising this one or whatever. And like Adam praising this one. First of all, you're both crazy. I hate this thing. And I hope this never shows up in a tournament. I attend. Okay. There's new total commitment. Yeah. New total commitment. Okay. New total commitment. Four objectives in a square. Two holy within each territory. The prime objectives. Yep. Yep. And then we hate reserves. And we don't like summoning units that can shoot. Yes. So. Yeah. And we just like you. Yeah. You can't summon things. The important part here is just like with total commitment, you cannot keep anything in reserve. I love shutting off allegiance abilities for armies. It's super fun. And then summon units can't shoot or charge in the turn in which they were added to your army. Now, first of all, if that was just like a rule across AOS, I don't know if I'd hate it. Let me just say that. Okay. I think that might be okay. If that was just like, if, if summoned things had summoning sickness like magic. Fine. I might be okay with it. Right. Sure. But I hate that rule because it's so uniquely punishing to start like, I get it. Destruction is real good in this edition. Did we really need to just like make a scenario that's called like destruction wins for sure. Don't worry about it. And the, the thing about this, the other thing I really, really, really despise about this scenario. And this is so simple, but I really freaking hate it. Okay. Is keep in mind it's using these, these bigger Tetris blocks and you set up nine inches away from their territory, which is going to be so fun to map out the three stupid semicircles away. I hate them. I hate them. Cause cause cause every little red square is pushed into by a blue square. So you have to take a little nine inch arc and be like circle and draw this little semi-circle and draw this little semi-circle. And so your actual deployment zone looks like a, like this. Yeah. Just get your protector out. Right. Yeah. We, we had some, there was a mission in 2020. We had some of that going on forcing the hand had a little bit of that going on. Yeah. Same. I hated, I hated forcing the hand too. Yeah. And I just, so I don't like it uses standard scoring other than this. It's a standard scenario. Um, you know, I just, like, I get it. Some people really hate summoning. Fine. I don't disagree with that. This isn't the right way to punish them. This is just like, I hated it when it was called total commitment. I hate it still now. I don't think it should show up in tournaments. I just, I don't believe it should. Like, if you want to fix those armies, fix those armies, fix those mechanics. Don't put a Jax scenario that they suddenly run across and lose. Yeah. This is pretty low on my list. I feel like this is going to be one that we'll get taken out of consideration for the five rounds of edit tournament pretty, pretty quickly. I hope so. Apparently not if it's Rob or Adam running. I mean, like, what's the, what's the, the positive? Let's be a salesman sells for, for this scenario. What are any upside here, Dan? You can see it's great for destruction. Yeah. And we don't like seeing sure. Yeah. Exactly. If you really hate Seraphon and Siege and you're a destruction player, you are, you are loving the scenario. You lose nothing. I like the zinches. You know, it's got kicked, plenty kicked in the teeth already outside of Arkion's inch. So they're, they're probably. Oh, I think she should still do. Okay, mate. I don't have much. They're still strong army. Yeah. So yeah, I, I'm not a fan of this one. Yeah. All right. Tectonic interference. Okay. So Tectonic interference is just updated shifting objectives. That's all it is. Don't try to play me like it's something else. That's what it is. So Tectonic interference uses alpha and beta objectives. They are all prime objectives. So you cannot destroy any of them. You this, this one has an 18 inch deployment. Dead demilitarized zone at 18 inch DMZ. And each round at the start of each battle round before determining who has the first turn, you roll a D3. The objective with the corresponding number is the alpha objective and the other two are beta objectives. I hate that these terms are actually associated with creatures because they're trying to use like monster terms like pack terms like alpha and beta. Even though this aren't real, there's no such thing as like alpha wolves and beta wolves. It's not, it's not a real concept, but whatever. That's just a minor pick a deal. Oh, I have the like social animals are social. They have hierarchies and stuff, but then whatever. Anyways, okay. So yeah, it's, it's shifting objectives, man. I don't know. It favors alpha blocking like this is your traditional great if you can alpha block. Like it's a relatively close thing. If you have a good alpha block army, you just go first, you move forward, you sit on all three and go, come kill me bro. Yeah. And if you can't do it, I win. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not a whole lot to say about it. It's exactly the same pretty much with, with battle tactics, crash strategies added in. Yep. It's just shifting objectives again. Yeah. It's going to play very similarly. I think shifting objectives was also 18 inch DMC. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Nine inch away from each. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. Not a whole lot to say about this one. I don't think. This, reading this scenario, it reminded me of that vanilla ice interview where he was like, no, no, their song goes down. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's different. It's like, don't try to slip this by on me. Okay. Like I see you. We've got like what five Danny said, three with three objectives, five scenarios, three objectives or four. So yeah, this was on my list to probably would remove it from consideration. Yeah. What's a race take my feeling is probably doesn't need to be in the tournament back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's a degree? Yeah. Okay. It's not a terrible scenario. I don't think, but I mean, it clearly favors. I mean, you know, you're not going to make a big difference. You know, you're not going to make a big difference. Like with, with Mordans or whatever, Yeah. you've got an awful lot with shooting on the back line. It's like, Hey, I hope, I hope you've really got some tricks. Otherwise I win. Yeah, it. It just runs. They're quite. Yeah. The classic pattern of the, taught go first, move up 60 clan rats and. 40 clan rats and 20 clan rats or whatever. And putting tranquil and worthwhile, throwers behind and just say, come at me, bro. Yeah. I mean it just doesn't it doesn't promote a Interactive playstyle right okay, okay? Okay, now for one of the most interesting ones in the entire pack. This one is Crazy we must be on the vice marking territory. No, no Vices is like he's right up there too. There's two that I really find fascinating marking Okay, marking territory. I'm calling it updated knife to the heart This yeah, I Have written in my summary here knife to the heart is even tougher now welcome to your minor victory Unless your opponent gets caught out in which case congratulations. Yeah, it's the it's the gotcha scenario It's the gotcha scenario like this is if there was ever something where skill was gonna make all the difference and a new player We'll be like wait. I lost Right immediately. So how's this one work? Okay? Well, there's no victory points That's how it works. All right Hmm you win if there are four objectives, none of them are prime objectives. That's really important Starting from the third battle round one player immediately wins a major victory if they control all of the objectives on the battlefield however The important part about that is if the person going seconds in the third round like if you win priority in the third round You choose to go second so you get to remove an objective and you currently control three objectives You instantly win the game. Yep Yep So that's good, that's cool because you could just be like that one the one only when you control it's gone now I win Yeah, I think this one is gonna be Prub well first explanation is to think this one is probably a good candidate for a pack I like so I had these debates over the years with I think I feel like you and I had this discussion then I've always said the heart should be like game one Yeah, I started out. I was always huge on blood and glory because to me it was a more interesting night to the heart Sure, and that would be the other one you could use here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah There was it was a lot of minors you would get yep It was tough to get a major and that I went to get the four objectives This was a little easier potentially probably with the three going down to three if you win that round three and Yeah, but I think it also could push back a little bit against low model count armies Potentially relative to higher model count like I'm thinking about my game with night haunt Where I had two cabbages ten brutes two by three pigs So of course, you know some of that's counting for more models But I was going up against a lot of night haunts sure thirty sixty chain rasp etc Yeah, and yeah The game would have just been over because I did a do enough damage quickly enough in rounds one and two Where if he had won that he would burn my bottom right and right there. He wins automatically Yep, and so I could see potentially that happening in a number of games in terms of model count differentiation But yeah, I really like this one four pack Even though it does have that kind of inherent gotcha. It's got to got your moment That's what holds that's a trips me up like I think this one's good for a pack But boy is it gonna be a sour taste in a new player's mouth Dan, what do you think? I? Try to avoid a sour taste than a new player Yeah, at all costs Especially when you're trying to build a scene and you want people to come back to more events Yeah, you have like a dozen people at the tournament who are really pissed that they lost and didn't realize they were about to lose Sure Or knew they were gonna lose and then just hated the idea that they were gonna lose on a dice fall The last time they made a choice was at the top of two and then they lost yeah Right they went first in round two their opponent went took there It took a third objective in the bottom of two one priority wins the game Yep Fun Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just very much interested for that then need to play it more I don't know I'm not I'm not sure need to play more For me there's a lot of potential I think it's interesting if you've got a very particular type of tournament Yeah, but It's rough It's rough mm-hmm Okay, that's marking territory. All right power struggle Power struggle is really really really interesting. Okay, so once again, we've got a 22 inch DMZ here in the middle And the way this one works is it uses the standard scoring With some exception. Okay, and the exception is instead of holding it you have to hold the points for multiple rounds sort of Let me explain So You score one victory point if you have controlled at least one objective for two of your turns consecutively You score one victory point if you could have controlled two or more objectives for two of your turns consecutively You score one victory point if you control more objectives than your opponent, but that's it not for two turns consecutively So just having more like you can get that one in round one Yeah Okay, so if you take the middle one and hold it in round one or then or your opponent trades it or whatever It doesn't matter if you trade on the middle one back and forth Right, you're just gonna go back and like if you guys if you just spend the whole game Yo-yoing the middle objective You're just gonna go back and forth on three forever basically but in the first round You'll only get three total and then from round two on you get five Standard five assuming you're completing our battle tactics, right? This would definitely favors anvils, I think you know being able to take and hold Yeah, I think this this one definitely big time empowers the double turn Because on the double you can like take it and then get that to the victory points uncontested right Like you've held it in one of your turns then you double. Okay. I did it. I held it for two of my friends, right? So So just to start from the top that maybe you explained and I missed it What's your understanding that you guys understanding of so Is that what you're gonna ask consecutively? Yes. Yeah, I've just gained the book Check the exact wording of the scoring My answer is FAQ Sure, yeah Yeah, the point being can my opponent take it for me and then I take it back Yes, now I have held it for two of my turns Consecutively, but I did not hold it Continuously right, right those are two separate words with two separate meanings, right? And and also does the At least one objective for two of your turns consecutively Does that mean does it have to be the same objective presumably that is the intention right on on that wording? All you've got to have is have held one objective a Minimum of one objective for two turns. Yeah, I held this one And then I held this one and I've held at least one objective for two turns consecutively right when it seems like the Intention is I held this one. I sat on it like my my really their intention is I sit there I hold it. I won't move in my next turn. I hold it again. I score it Like that feels like what they were going for But boy does this come short of that in what you think you think they were going for continuously through your opponent If you go top of one your opponent you hold it your opponent goes bottom of one they take it You're saying that that was not the intention if you then reclaim it. Okay, again I'm I mean with reading reading intent is always a dangerous. Sure, right, but yes That's absolutely. I read it. I mean just you know again You have to look at things like the flavor text and it's like they refuse to fall back to be right They must commit everything they have to secure a new ground. Okay, that tells me this is about holding right same objective and consecutively not different objectives or Same objective lost and then we captured right right. Yeah, yeah We need a stronger wording clarification in that hold your ground section Where they explain what the heck that means right they they needed to explain does that mean same objective and continuous? That was the wording we need to do there Yeah, so my answer on this one is If it gets ruled like that, I think this one is a cool one for tournaments That is like if we get the proper clarifications and we all understand how this plays I think a standard five objective setup like this is a fun way to go I like the distance. I like classic five, you know, X Points last year. Yeah, I Agree This one is one that is going to be heavily skewed towards battle tactics. Yes Mm-hmm in terms of available points Yep, because a lot of people will not hold an objective for two turns continuously Or might only do one. So you're going you're not you're gonna be really getting the full three, right? Objective so this one's going to be one that will be very skewed towards battle tactics. Yep. Hmm. I Agreed. I think it's good to have at least one of those in the pack. Yep, I agree I my only concern is it does empower the double turn, but again, that's okay. Let's just be aware of that It's an interesting thing sure The vice Call Tyler you can be the tubs to my Crockett any day Because let me tell you what it's time to hit that Miami vice So somebody played fortnight or pub G or whatever Wouldn't that be cool as a as a Warhammer scenario So the way this one works is it uses completely standard? deployment With the exception that this has the largest DMZ It's the the horizontal deployment with a 12 inch DMZ Okay The only 24 the only 24 anyone left The way it works is you start with objectives way out in the corners Okay way up here. I love having a rectangular screen so I can do this right and then At the start of the second battle round they move in Well, what was it 18.6 inches right? That's the hypotenuse. Yeah, so they move in 18.6 inches here. Yeah, okay And then at the start of the fourth battle round is but there's still four objectives. They're just closer At the start of the fourth battle rounds. There's one objective left It cuts down to one being on the center point of the board okay Now that one in the center is a is a prime objective I think they're all prime objectives actually they will try not to remove any of them. Um, I love this one This uses this, you know, standard scoring It's gonna push toward an eventual scrum in the middle but in the late game when you're already sort of exhausted I find that this one fascinating for the challenges it offers armies of like who's sitting back and towing in on Holding the back ones when they're in the back back back corner way up here You know, do you have enough deck chair sitters? Could you have deck chair sitters that can withstand shadow stonkers Teleporting over and like trying to slice your objective out from under you You know, like I am fascinated by this scenario, I love the vice. I want this in every tournament. I play it I'm in like yeah for this one Yeah, both corners your army stretched The scoreings yeah, you can score Two VP on round one then you might get three VP for round two because you've got across the board to be able to contest One of your opponents to That also might be three VP for round three and then you're gonna go back down to two VP for round four and five Because you've only got one objective, right? And if you hold the one you hold one and more than your opponent who I wouldn't have zero. Yeah, yeah, I Love this scenario. I love the way it plays with the basic structure of the one one one It's so clever in what it's doing there I love the way it wants your armies to move to spread to be in different places at different points in the battle like Yes, it is it is empowering I think of Things like teleporters and stuff like that. I do think that is true Yeah, but that you know that that has counterplay, right? Like you can counterplay that stuff And I think that that makes for an interesting game. I Love the vice You're on the island this this this Yeah, I played once but it was Suns and iron jaws and we just had a It was nice because obviously we didn't have any tell it well, I guess I didn't have hand of Gork I was cheating I had some teleport but I was thinking you know at the start of the first before the start of the first battle round Of course now we are scoring so we take control which is interesting so we can move away in round one So yeah, we did that in that matchup But yeah, we ended up pulling the trigger I pulled the trigger in round three before we got to round four So never never even got to the scrum in the middle, but yeah Nice. Yeah, love the vice. Yeah, cool. Anything else you want to say on this one? I Think we're good. I hope it's I hope it's as good as it looks. Yeah, I I I haven't got to play this one yet I'm quite excited to Now to one I have played apex predators or also known as places of arcane power or the three things or Leaders are important. So have leaders. Yeah So it uses this little square box thing. This one's easier I don't mind this nine inch thing because I only have to set up one nine inch bubble Across the center, right? Yeah, that's total conquest set up there. Yeah, classic classic setup. This one's fine So the only way you take objectives is if a friendly you leader unit finishes a move Other than a retreat move within three inches of an objective And there's no other enemy leader within three inches of it Or if you kill a leader who's on it and you're within three inches of it, then you gain control of it Yep with a melee weapon. Yes, that's right Very yeah, that is very important and once you gain control of it It remains under your control until your opponent gains control of it until there is no friendly leader within or there or there is no Friendly there within three inches of it. In other words, this one you cannot walk away from right, oh Well, you can you can you can walk away as long as you've got another leader there sure yeah Yeah, so you can have your your combat hero come along Take control of the objective and then wander off to get another one as long as you've got a support here Because it's not remember it's the player who controls the model who contests right that being the key So you can have to like two euros move up You're absolutely right combat hero smashes support your holds because it just says there's you lose it if there's no Friendly leader within three. Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah, my point is you can't abandon it, right? You can't leave it empty right like you can't normal objectives You know, you're a babysitter. You got a babysitter with somebody other than that it uses standard scoring one one ones standard breakdown Yeah, I I like this one. I've always liked the leader scenario. I've always liked three places of arcane power I think it's cool. It does incentivize models that are already pretty good in this addition That is say like, you know leaders are already pretty potent You're already having a heroes and hero monsters do a lot of really good stuff and be really powerful pieces in winning the game The only thing that would hold me off when we're saying it should be in tournament packs is that you're already gonna have leader monsters showing up everywhere So, yeah, do we really need more incentive for them? I don't know Yeah, do we do we need to reward kaiju hammer more than we? Yeah, yeah, that's my basic take as well. I don't yeah, I wouldn't personally include this one I think we've got plenty of incentive. It's not really fulfilling a meaningful purpose I don't think in GHP 21 at least like I think it often could lead to better game in my experience with place of arcane power over the years Most of the games were pretty good, you know, like the fear double Marathi or whatever, you know Or getting shot off all your heroes getting shot off like I don't know that at least in the However many dozens of experiences like it never happened for the most part They were always really intriguing games, but I just don't know if we need this this time around Well, and now like I said, I mean, I think you've got you've got Marathi You've got immortal RK on, you know, you've got like there are just heroes in the mix here that I'm not sure it's They you already are gonna include them. They're no-brainers. So yeah, again Do we just need to have you rock up? And at the same time, you're gonna have armies that have like two six-moon heroes Sure I guess they just get to lose, you know, yeah, yeah, and they're There certainly can be a sort of alpha bunker orientation to this and in certain matchups where you get the choice to go first And you happen to have three hero monsters that are on a three-up base save and maybe an award thrown around Oh, you know, but you're probably gonna be pretty good. So to hang on at least two of those for a little while So, yeah, I yeah, I think it could be a lot of advantage in going first in this one We've got You look at the core battalions and we've got a lot of incentive to take those smaller support heroes So this is gonna favor the smaller support heroes that all come in But as we've said, you want you want your big smashy, right? You only need one big smash to go and do the dirty business and then you have your five of them running around I played against Sylvaneth, I did play this one I played against Sylvaneth with my scaven I promptly assassinated all three of their He's about right and then won the game. That was the it was a pretty straightforward solution. All right Bang bang go went the went the scaven shooting and then I won the game. That was pretty much that one. So There we go, okay survival of the fittest Yet again with this absolute nonsense deployment structure that I hate This one's so silly. Can I just like The diagonal teeth Formation yeah, like first of all, I hate that this one is like silly on top of silly Okay Here's how this one works. It has that annoying thing we talked about before as far as like I have to draw my little teeth For deployments again nine inches. Then we also have this new mini game. We get a play called top of the food chain After armies have been set up But before determining who has the first turn in the battle round each player pick three different friendly units on the battlefield Starting with the attacker. These units are your predator units for the battle So it uses completely normal scoring except You also get a bonus victory point for each enemy predator unit that was destroyed by a friendly predator unit During that turn. So you're trying to orchestrate these specific clashes where your Three dudes kill their three dudes and then there's like this There's this sort of teta-teta at the beginning where you're like if they've got Archeon You're not picking anybody to who who's gonna fight at all You just pick like three things that will hide at the back of the board. Yeah, exactly. Yeah And you never get in the fight. You're just like well, you're we're just none of us are ever getting those right, right? right, so you get this weird mini game happening of like Who can who can pre-plan this the best or who can get their exact chess pieces into place and whatever whatever Yeah, I love the concept of it. Yeah, I worry exactly as you said that it's in terms of it's just incentives gone wrong It feels like there's a lot of potential for that. This is the other one This is the what's the other one first blood? These are very similar and I would just go first blood in a pack, but what do you think Dan? Yep Yeah, I mean, I just feel like this one has this extra mini game layer. That's just kind of silly and I'm like It's not gonna I know how they pictured it in their head when they sure It's a cool. I think it's a really cool idea Sure, they were like oh people are gonna pick like three aggressive units and three other aggressive units I have monster fights like in Ger and in my head. I'm like no My I'm gonna defensive pick and three things I think are never gonna fight and I'm gonna stay way out of the fight And I'm gonna hide and deny my opponent those victory points, right? And I'm just gonna kill their predators outright so that that way they never stand a chance to score it I mean, that's kind of interesting like distraction pieces, you know It's a little bit like, you know, sort of how we picked objectives and forcing the hands where you can you know set up a little You're setting up baits. It's not sure. Yeah, it's it's we're playing a bait game I wouldn't be against this one in a tournament pack if this one showed up. I'm not sad It's a silly minigame, but it's what I like minigames. So it's like it's fine. It's silly, but fine The other thing to note with this is that there's no prime objectives. Yes For this one And it is three objectives so you can quickly get down and sort of skew towards better tactics again Sorry, I was also right. I was jumping ahead to the end where I was writing down the five scenarios that I Dating the question All right So yeah, this one's like a border for me of like F is in there fine, but I I don't need it is what I'm saying It's not like the vice where I want to see it in every pack ever no matter what period end of story Please put it in there. Thank you and I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah And like I said, it it's just the fact that it's so similar to first bloods and I like I think it's just a very strong Scenario to include you need a first blood in there because you need something that isn't breaking your brain first blood is like a great game One it's great game one. We're all warming up. Everybody's settling in it's an early morning on a Saturday Everybody was up too late drinking before the tournament Get some first blood. It gets a good warm-up right like you need those that kind of cadence in a tournament. So Okay feral for a So this one is Interesting to say the least this is your new sort of like I get to destroy enemy objectives scenario Squished earth new scorched earth. Yeah, basically sure. There's only six scenarios or six objectives, right? Yeah So three in three they are 30 inches apart from each other The DMZ is 18 inches right so nine inches from each side of the line Lots of space here to set up things like faction terrain huge territories great trellors things We're trying to pop in behind you know be an opponent's territory All those things are great in this one because there's just there's lots of room for activities in this one From the start of the second bout around after you score victory points You can raid one objective that you control that is wholly within your opponent's territory and Is within one inch of a friendly unit if you do so you score one additional victory point that is after you scored That is the point. So if you get so when you're counting your do I have one do I have two do I have more you do that first? Then you make this choice to burn it Okay, and if you do so bonus one, but then that objective is removed. You cannot raid more than one objective per turn So very clear Cadence there as to how you'd want to do this and how you want to push a good change Absolutely This can be one of those scenarios is where it's very difficult to break the line It is one of the you know It's tied for the largest number of objectives the turn three objective remove matters a lot here there's none of these are prime and Like it's often you might be in sort of a stalemate kind of pushing and then then turn three ends up being the thing It sort of tilts it in one way or another if no one's really managed to get in hard and burn yet, right? Yeah Dan what are your thoughts on on barrel for a I like it. Yeah I do like it for that that consideration and you can see yourself going into the opponent's objectives Raiding burning depriving them of that one and then sort of going back to yours So now I think it's an interesting one I sort of when I was it when I was going through my set of five that I'd picked for packets This one for me is paired with power in numbers Meaning meaning you would pick one of the two or you'd pick one of these two So I've got my four other choices and then I pick one of these two Yeah, I think I'm probably leaning towards power in numbers over fell for a But I'd be interested in your guys thoughts Good. Yeah. Yeah, I think I would too for which is because I couldn't stand better part of valor With the battle line orientation and now it really stands out as probably the reason you want power numbers in a pack Is that sorry? Is that the name which whichever one has one? Yeah, yeah that yeah, I I think I'd lean that direction, but yeah, I like both of these Yeah, she's checking objectives always always nice classic and a couple nice little changes. Yeah, I have gotten to play this one I quite liked this one It was very fun the turn three objective thing mattered a ton because I Pushed and they burned and it basically stayed even and I like they they removed I burned Sorry, and it was like, you know, the world kind of balanced, right? And it fell back into into into balance So it was it was funny how much that turn three seismic shift mattered there and I could see that happening a lot And you do what you want that? in a scenario Somewhere in the pack where it's not leading to the feel bad that we talked about the sort of new knife Roan instant loss scenario, right? You want seismic shift to have an impact? In a scenario, which isn't gonna instant win where you then gonna see that play out the consequences it over three four and five Agreed, and that's what happens here. So beautifully, right? As because like you have to really then think about removing objectives and when you're burning your opponent's objectives And how that's gonna fall with seismic shift and like are you wind up there are people who screw themselves by burning objectives? Like absolutely that happened All right speaking of power in numbers power in numbers Only slight difference is that in the setup is that this is 22 inch DMZ instead of a 18 inch DMC But otherwise quite similar still six objectives Still horizontal deployment The big difference in this scenario two big differences. I mean this one this scenario is very very different actually, okay? Yeah Let's get to one if there are the backbone of success if there are any battle line units within six inches of objective Then only models from battle line units can contest the objective or if you're play 40k you've got ob-sec Mm-hmm We're assuming this is battle line if as well. Yeah Battle line if isn't a thing it's just just battle line, right? It's just you become battle line I think the thing that I find interesting about this is someone is gonna screw themselves over Because the opponent will have five models on an objective non-battle line You will then move up your non-battle line unit To take it might have ten models or whatever and you leave one of your battle line chaff models within the six inch zone and so That's the only one that counts. You've got one versus five or whatever and you get your numbering screwed and you Yeah, not yeah Because it isn't that yeah, that's it's like this. This is worth mentioning and drilling in on for a second The the wording of this is not if the battle line unit controls Right, it's It's if there are any battle line units within six inches of an objective period Okay, like you could have one battle line guy towing in within six inches Okay, you're actually controlling it with a completely different thing Right, you've got a monster there worth five and one battle line dude, okay The other the other the other thing that you can do is this could be a long Battle line unit from your army. Yeah, that is Contesting an objective over here and is denying an opponent over there Yes, because you are triggering the rule about only battle yarn units being able to Do it because your battle line unit doesn't have to be contesting the objective That it's turning off. Yep You can be contesting another objective and you just stop the other person Correct, like let's take let's take the escape an example since I've run it so many times 60 clan rats they can still go 30 long Easily in there in a very safe way, right? You can just do your standard two ranks of 30 That you can stretch that across all three of those objectives No drama llama easy peasy, right? You run them right along behind the line Now they can only contest one of those objectives because yes, I was I was just checking that So my my rats are spread out across all three. They're only contesting the left one Okay, that's it. They're added. They're giving me contest and control of the left one But their mere presence Standing behind the other two Okay means that anything in my opponent's army that isn't battle line can no longer contest my objectives Yeah Because I don't the wording is if there are any battle line units within six inches of an objective Lord, the only models from battle line units can contest that objective. Okay. I I hate it How many are how many armies Have battle line units that you are sending across the board to contest an opponent Not every one so many ones your hammer unit or whatever you're throwing across the board is not battle line So it's a really good defensive play as as Ben says Yes, and the important part is keep mine That goes for you as well. Only your battle line can contest as well However Okay, if you just Started the game by having control of all three years with anything All right Then you have control of them Yeah, okay, you don't need to contest anymore at that point. Right Can you start your rats or whatever like it like it's easy because you gain control pre game now Sure. Yeah, and you just shut off their entire ability to do it or you could just have like, you know Whatever you get the point Right. Yeah, it just like says hey all the rest of that crap in your army Yeah Beast cool writers don't care about this right like again beast cloth sons blah blah blah blah, right Iron jaws like iron jaws can test with battle line all the time The only thing in their army that can then it could test that isn't Battle line is the mega boss on mark rusher, right? He's just going in to pick up bodies while three pigs fall behind to do the actual work to contest Yeah So and then the other big thing to talk about here. Yeah, that one's like it's so crazy tyler the layers on this one, right? Yeah, I completely miss that. Yeah that that nuance. It's a fun one I mean joking aside, I think I I think we'll play this wrong Oh, yeah I I'm gonna yeah now. We're really going to try this. I think I still like it, but yeah We haven't even talked about the scoring Which is also crazy We've only talked about the objective force All right, so the scoring standard battle tactics two points every that's true across all of them. There's nothing that deviates from that and then uh starting from the second battle round from the second battle round Hmm At the end of each of your turns or the player's turns, right? The player can destroy one or more of the objectives They control in order to score the following victory points If you gain control of the objective this turn one victory point If you controlled it, uh in your last turn, it's two then two turns four and then the whole game eight That basically being that way, right? So obviously your incentive ice to like hold on Right to these things Uh So, yeah, um, I would call this the new better part of valor, right? Obviously. Yeah So but with this battle line kicker Yeah, yeah, man, uh, this one's super interesting. I like I this one is a high level play Separate the the the wheat from the chaff as it were right because knowing how to structure your army how to use your Battle line effectively and knowing when to hold them when to fold them when to walk away and when to run Yep, and it stops three times five min battle line And yeah a whole range of other things. Um, and it incentivizes that battle line unit and gives them some benefit in a hero hammer meta um Outside the sort of suns and stuff, but uh, yeah, I like it. I I would be in a pack for me Because yeah, because summon doesn't you know, Summon doesn't count as bad line, of course. So yeah, no, it's yeah It's it's yeah, it's it's a grenade and uh, you know a huge mucky wrench and it Yes, seems like a maybe an auto include honestly at these tournaments Uh, but you know to try to try to shake things up push push against what we have so many incentives going in the other direction Agreed. Yep. Totally agreed Okay Uh, so I have my summary here. I'll do that and let's talk about our our winners and we'll call it a night. Hmm. Yeah, uh, so Uh, the average number of objectives in this pack is smaller five to 12 prime objectives. I talked about Uh, the fundamental structure of the scenario scoring is incentivizing you to spread out less talked about that already Battle tactics are really important in some scenarios where they are 66 of the score you get from objectives or more or equal if you count the monster bonus, right? And uh, and in some scenarios, they really cannot matter at all Other than as deciding the minor because some of them the score can run so far beyond what battle tactics can gain you It's crazy Oh, okay. We haven't even talked about I guess we'll have to save the whole tournament scoring system Conversation for now. Yeah, we'll save that for the future. That's more like how do we run tournaments? I think is in that but yes, there's a boy that could be a whole show on its own. Yeah uh And I might I have my final point. I said it earlier. I think more games will end in a draw Uh, there you go uh so Dan Your Five what are you picking? What do you think your winners are? What what's your your pick list at least? So my pick list so my five of first blood savage gains power struggle the vice and power in numbers love it Love it. Am I five? With sort of feral four way and survival of the fittest around the outside, but those are my What were you what were you picking on the outside Dan? Feral four way And survival of the fittest. Okay. Yeah, but well, I have a strong preference for my first fight I'm I literally completely agree with that list. I I am exact five That is the exact Yeah, I've got four out of the five so far. I'm trying to decide whether power struggle is the fifth or if it's something else I mean, I think if you weren't going to pick power struggle, you'd pick feral foray feral foray is Because it's the other six objective scenario that encourages sort of the horizontal push and You know, yeah And has a lot of like that clever counterplay potential and trading and not prime objectives And so and you get the benefit of the whatever we call the stealing objective rule Yeah, the size of the shift being able to play Yeah, yeah to me. It's like I I agree with you. I the reason I think Powered numbers is such a strong inclusion is because it does push and incentivize good battle line Which is something that doesn't you know, like it's good like don't be wrong. Look big units are still big units There's still the best thing in the game, right? Like I mean, let's be honest with ourselves here Yep, yeah, but there's a lot of incentive now to heroes and monsters But it's good to have one of the five actually then still bring that incentive back up and say hey People using big units and not just pure msu the whole time Yeah, yeah Yeah, and use that reinforced unit This is a scenario where you're going to be getting maximum bang from the back from that reinforced unit That you have in your sort of mixed arms List that you've built for this tournament. Yeah Yep, yeah, cool with your sons. You just walk around Yeah, I think Yeah, I think for her power struggle is probably that fifth spot for me So, yeah, we're either all onto something. We're all idiots Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah, those those feel about right there Yeah I was gonna say Yeah, good I was just going to say one conscious you just sort of said you're five as will vint Hopefully not coming off but on that tournament scoring point Now that we have got clear win-loss draw And more draws We're going to need ways to separate and the question for me is Do you determine that on the basis of battle tactics? So people that just get the most battle tactics over the course is going to be the next sort Um, and that is effectively double counting Yeah, the benefit of battle tactics So if you're good at getting better tactics, then you're going to do well in the overall event or are you going to go for VP differential say and so Yeah, I don't differential is going to be that is going to be the sorting point. So incentivizing you to win more Whether it is by objectives or battle tactics So you still get the benefit of battle tactics because you're running up the score in round four and round five In order to maximize that differential Yeah, I'm really I'm really unsure on this one. I've you know, like I don't like the 20o system Right, which is sort of a not pure vp It's like a vp differential and then you see that you pin it to a To a set scores of 20 nil the classic 20 nil system, right? Like how much you win by set your basis on a 20 nil system Um, I know some people in 40k in the states just use raw vp counts Yeah, so like whatever it is In 40k attorneys, I think that's probably fine Um, I've always been a fan of just using strength of schedule throughout the tournament to continue determining and like I like Magic swiss uses strength of schedule pretty heavily And I think strength of schedule has always been the best the best decider Like I think we should use strength of schedule more Yes, the strength of schedule Does a great job. It drives you to particular tournament software. Um, in order to calculate It's this is actually true Um, and the the thing I was going to say about the 40k scoring is just pure vp's Removes that element of denying your opponent. So in a os2 We had the strong benefit of getting points for denying your opponent's secondaries, right now The only benefit of denying your opponent that is is the sort of overall win is making sure you win on vp's, right? right If you kept it a vp differential, then you incentivizing you to Deny your opponent and maximize your own scoring. Sure. Sure Yeah, it's it's interesting like I said It's this is probably worth a whole show in its own and I don't think we'll solve it I think there's lots of different options. I will say this, you know My classic answer and what we always did, you know with with david nashkon was we set up schemes, right? Which were sort of these built-in secondaries that very much felt like battle tactics And and we use those very much as the decider, right? Because you had to complete your thing and then your scheme and they were scored separately and then the score totaled together and yada yada I don't think you could do that anymore because there's already so much going on I just don't think there's enough room for another thing To be doing. No, you're not you're not going to add additional layers onto all of the things that we Were in we're cap. This is it. Yeah This is as complicated as I'd ever want the game to get so we've got to figure out how to do it with whatever's here I think yeah to me this is kind of pressing because I know of multiple to's who are actively considering adding additional layers essentially secondaries and tertiaries And I'm that seems like a bad idea in general to me There's so many things to be tracking and thinking of Especially a brand new addition when there's so much to already you don't have internalized yet like come on No way. I would I would say that's the right answer right now Please leave that crap at the door. Like you're just gonna break your player's brains. All you're then doing is just Getting like all the person who wins is the person who forgets less Everybody's gonna forget a ton of stuff. It's just who happened to forget less It's just not needed I think that like my my rough answer right now Would be Just use a basic vp run Like just total the vp's for now because we don't and then later we can agree on if we want to do a point differential And what does the 20 out nil look like? Right like we could get there and you know or if you want to experiment with that fine Yeah, I'm a bit. I'm a big fan of that one of those two systems to just just start with the basics and run it out Yeah, you wouldn't have to move to a 20 nil you can just take sort of vp scored vine minus vp's given up to opponents Um and tell you so sort of goal difference analogy from football Yeah, big big big fan of that. Yeah, Ben speaks me by one point. I don't I don't want him getting 20 I mean nothing. That's that's no fun. Yeah, exactly. So like, you know Yeah Probably a whole show I think what we do is we trot it out and and like let some to his experiment and see where it goes from there That's the right answer Sure. Yeah, and my and my thought is anybody who tries to add additional layers onto this It's going to fail miserably, especially in these first two months Like I just I can't be more blunt with people right like you're it's there's already too much going on in this game folks At the moment like you're going to break everybody's poor brains All right gentlemen, I think we did it. Absolutely. There we go There we go All right, folks will dan thank you so much as brian s just said we appreciate you being the hot nerd Who comes on the show? He said that uh, whenever time he watches his wife sees him watching and asks if the hot nerd is on I think that's very apropos You're definitely bringing up the overall average of hotness on this channel. So we appreciate that dan Thank you very much. I love how much we objectify dan in the annus community. It must feel good Ah No, dan it all seriousness. Thank you so much for coming on brother. I really appreciate it It's great. This was a great discussion. I was very glad to have you on again We will of course have dan back again in the future Uh, don't forget a os shorts. It'll be linked down below all that information you can find there Don't forget about the events list we talked about at the top. That is linked down below as well Uh, to all of you out there watching. Thank you so much Uh, this weekend is a big weekend. We'll hope with it. Well, like I said, if the preview show is good enough We'll do a little Uh pickup and you know talk about that when we get our stormcast tanks to ride alongside our stormcast chariots I can't wait Uh or our dragon riders to all of you out there. Thank you. Don't forget to hit like don't forget to hit subscribe Please do all that fun stuff. We really appreciate it. It's so easy. It's just clicking a little tiny button and and And it means the world to me. So thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day as always We'll see you next wednesday